Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Answers to your qestions about moving to, and living in, Peru,
canadiantraveller
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Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby canadiantraveller » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:03 pm

Hey Folks,

I've spent the past couple years in Peru on and off and have lived the past year here in Lima. I love Peru, but we all know it has a dark side as well. I don't mean to paint a poor picture of the place, or to dwell on the negative, but it certainly seems to me like there are so many things that go on in this country that people just give a blind eye to.

Few examples. I know these things take place throughout Peru, but these are the most common for me.

Cusco
If you are young and would like to visit the bars and clubs in the Plaza (outside Mama Africa, Mythology, Inka Team), expect to be offered all kinds of drugs if you are standing outside. I've been back and forth from Cusco many times and it's the same every time. I've had a guy with a pile of cocaine in his hand offer it to me. Total lack of discretion tells me nobody cares to stop them.

Lima
Nearly everyday I see the same fat guy in Parque Kennedy near Rustica trying to befriend gringo travellers and eventually offer to sell them weed or anything else they want. He makes no attempt to hide it. There's several other shady characters walking around doing the same thing.

Iquitos
Iquitos if anyone is aware has a pretty big drug and prostitution problem, specifically with young children. I've been there on Friday and Saturday nights before walking around and it's very evident this stuff is going on.

Now I'm aware for the most part that unfortunately it's the foreigners visiting who are the ones looking for drugs and prostitutes here, but why doesn't anyone step in and do something to clean things up? The government, the police? It seems pretty simple to me. Send people undercover and start arresting people. Make a statement that it won't be tolerated and make it more difficult for these people to sell/buy these services. At least get them out of the main squares.

The police are never far away from these people and it just seems like if they wanted to make an effort to clean things up, they just have to do it. Are all of these things legal here?

I hate to bring up the dark side of Peru, because I really do love it here and the good really does outweigh the bad. I just get frustrated in some of the very simple things that could be done, to clean the place up a little bit. Maybe i'm being naive.

Thoughts? Experiences? Would love to hear them.


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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby Alpineprince » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:43 pm

Prostitution and drug possession (in small quantities) are legal here, apparently smoking cigarettes at an outdoor cafe is illegal and have seen the police in Miraflores swarm all over the tourists when they attempt to light up with their morning coffee.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:02 pm

The sellers are there because exist a market ; unfortunately not every traveller that came to Peru is looking for the wonderful sceneries and ruins. Some tourists are also looking for cheap drugs because they have had a previous dissolute life.. if there is no market there is no drug seller, it is simple like that.

The actual society is trapped between 2 options: freedom of choice vs drugs .. Drug is partially accepted in this society in the name of freedom of choice.. Personally I think that using drug is a lack of respect for your heatlh, your future and your body..

Who can do something of this respect ? any citizen with a film camera.. You just film it secretly in different points of the cities and once you have the evidence , take it to a reputable TV journalist (cuarto poder) and if it is a good news for the TV-program, then, it is broadcast to the country. After that the authorities see the video on TV, and sometimes they do something on this respect

Small possession of drugs in Peru isn't illegal, but the commercialization of drugs, including micro-comercialization what you have seen is clearly illegal..

http://www.larepublica.pe/06-02-2011/la-legalizacion-del-consumo-de-drogas
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby canadiantraveller » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:18 pm

The question I'm asking is why there seems to be no attempt to at least arrest those selling it so openly. I understand there will always be demand, but one walk in the evening through the Plaza de Armas in Cusco where the clubs are and you will have several people offering to sell to you. It is NOT discreet in any way. Seems like the police don't care too much because the tourists are the ones buying it, so they just ignore it and let them have their fun.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:23 pm

canadiantraveller wrote:Seems like the police don't care too much because the tourists are the ones buying it, so they just ignore it and let them have their fun.


Your question also has the answer..
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby canadiantraveller » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:33 pm

windsportinperu wrote:
canadiantraveller wrote:Seems like the police don't care too much because the tourists are the ones buying it, so they just ignore it and let them have their fun.


Your question also has the answer..


Yup, I just done like to accept it like the rest of the country has already.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:57 pm

canadiantraveller wrote: Yup, I just done like to accept it like the rest of the country has already.


I don't accept it too... and I don't think that the rest of the country accept it too.

It is indolence, lack of interest and apathy. Most people would applaud if something is done; except those who make an evil profit of it.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby emh » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:02 pm

I don´t know the answer but it´s not just a Peru thing. Same thing happens in Cartagena, Colombia for example.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:08 pm

Canadian, you might look at this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtlZgSjx1yE
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby rama0929 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:02 pm

To be fair, it seems Peru has been getting better. I've seen a bit of change since my first trip there in 06
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby renodante » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:17 pm

this stuff goes on in almost every major city all around the world.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby el conquistador » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:26 pm

I lived in Colombia before and now in Peru. I never encountered anyone trying to sell drugs to me. But I travelled all over Europe and the US and many times I met people trying to sell drugs to me. I was in Washington DC last week and anytime I got out of the Metro station after dark, there was someone trying to sell some 'stuff' to me.

I think the problem with the drugsdealers doesn't lay by the dealers, producers or smugglers. It lays by the consumers. They are the guilty part. If they stop using and buying this rubbish, the dirty drugbusiness will be gone.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby Polaron » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:19 pm

It is disquieting to be offered drugs or the services of a prostitute, but thankfully that is as far as it goes. The real problem is violent crime: muggings, etc. I'd rather be approached by 100 drug pushers than be mugged a single time.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby El Tunche » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:03 pm

Drug Trafficking goes from south to north while arms traffic goes from the north to the south, thats how the world works , some weapons are payed with drugs and viceversa .
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby KenBE » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:07 pm

Polaron wrote:It is disquieting to be offered drugs or the services of a prostitute, but thankfully that is as far as it goes. The real problem is violent crime: muggings, etc. I'd rather be approached by 100 drug pushers than be mugged a single time.

I agree. Violent crime is the REAL problem in Peru.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby El Tunche » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:07 pm

You mean in Trujillo .
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby KenBE » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:13 pm

El Tunche wrote:You mean in Trujillo .

I mean all cities I am familiar with: Trujillo and Chimbote. These both have insane crime levels. I am not sure about Lima (can't speak from personal experience). Miraflores and other rich areas are probably a bit better.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby craig » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:28 pm

canadiantraveller wrote:I've spent the past couple years ...

Clearly, cruising for drugs and prostitutes is the major preoccupation filling your life. I have better use for my time. But to each his own...
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby canadiantraveller » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:40 pm

craig wrote:
canadiantraveller wrote:I've spent the past couple years ...

Clearly, cruising for drugs and prostitutes is the major preoccupation filling your life. I have better use for my time. But to each his own...


I have lived here for the past year engaged to my peruvian fiance and working in tourism. As a result I have a bit of an interest in the well being of this country, and these are things I walk by and see every day. Even though I have never been with a prostitute and never taken a single drug during my time here, these are things I see every single day as I walk home from work at night or even during the day. These are not back alleys in sketchy neighborhoods, these are main plazas and tourist centres in both Cusco and Lima.

Thanks for the contribution, you're assumptions are mildly inaccurate, but nice try. Thank you for reminding me exactly why I don't participate on expatperu forums more often.

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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby Alpineprince » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:11 pm

canadiantraveller wrote: I have never been with a prostitute and never taken a single drug during my time here,
Matt

Is this because of the "quality" or the "prices" and what countries would you recommend?
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby jude » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:25 pm

Polaron wrote:It is disquieting to be offered drugs or the services of a prostitute, but thankfully that is as far as it goes. The real problem is violent crime: muggings, etc. I'd rather be approached by 100 drug pushers than be mugged a single time.


I agree with this 100%. The odd drug dealer or prostitute is just part of the urban landscape and generally easy to avoid.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby canadiantraveller » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:45 am

jude wrote:
Polaron wrote:It is disquieting to be offered drugs or the services of a prostitute, but thankfully that is as far as it goes. The real problem is violent crime: muggings, etc. I'd rather be approached by 100 drug pushers than be mugged a single time.


I agree with this 100%. The odd drug dealer or prostitute is just part of the urban landscape and generally easy to avoid.


I agree that it's easy enough to avoid these things, but that's not really my point. What I'm wondering, is if this kind of thing is so out in the open and clear, why don't the police do something about it, put a stop to it. I understand violent crimes are a bigger problem, but I think that neglecting any crime when you know it is happening only shows people they can get away with it and maybe more.

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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby Polaron » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:53 pm

canadiantraveller wrote:
jude wrote:
Polaron wrote:It is disquieting to be offered drugs or the services of a prostitute, but thankfully that is as far as it goes. The real problem is violent crime: muggings, etc. I'd rather be approached by 100 drug pushers than be mugged a single time.


I agree with this 100%. The odd drug dealer or prostitute is just part of the urban landscape and generally easy to avoid.


I agree that it's easy enough to avoid these things, but that's not really my point. What I'm wondering, is if this kind of thing is so out in the open and clear, why don't the police do something about it, put a stop to it. I understand violent crimes are a bigger problem, but I think that neglecting any crime when you know it is happening only shows people they can get away with it and maybe more.

Matt


One significant possibility is that they really don't care much about it. As long as it is small-scale trade that does not go on literally in front of a policeman, not much is going to be done about it. We gringos and canucks find it offensive to our sensibilities, but most latinos just ignore it and put it out of their minds.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby jude » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:41 am

canadiantraveller wrote:
I agree that it's easy enough to avoid these things, but that's not really my point. What I'm wondering, is if this kind of thing is so out in the open and clear, why don't the police do something about it, put a stop to it. I understand violent crimes are a bigger problem, but I think that neglecting any crime when you know it is happening only shows people they can get away with it and maybe more.

Matt


Like the broken window theory of crime reduction?

For me one of the things that I found most disturbing when I first visited Lima was the traffic. It was really scary to cross some of the larger roads in Miraflores, it almost seemed like drivers would speed up when they saw pedestrians. Let's not even get into the incessant horn honking for no apparent reason. Actually I still find both of those things more bothersome that being offered weed, but it's all part of the way things are here, so you just have to chill.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby teamoperu » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:21 am

My first reaction was what the heck, why should they... just becuase some prude Canadian arrives here and doesn't like it? So I didn't post because my mother always said if you don't have something nice to say then say nothing. But on second thought, I do have some positives to say:

Peru IS doing something to clean it up. Historically, for prostitution, they created chongos to get it off the street and hidden behind walls. On the streets, remember the prostitutes are the victims here and to suggest the police “do something” about them would only make them victims a second time.

The new mayor of Peru IS doing something. But instead of harassing the victims, she is working on the owners of the chongos and banos turcos who benefit. Sort of like going after the pimps not the girls, way better.

Peru IS doing something to celan up drugs. But again, instead of tracking the pushers in the parks, more effort is going on to catching the criminal bosses. When I travel often the bus is stopped and searched, dogs used etc etc. There is a big effort to reduce trafficing in Peru, so you are quite wrong that Peru is not trying to clean things up.

Now, regarding your personal expeiences. Maybe you are more sensative to seeing it than me, I could be blind and I have avoided Cusco for many years. But recently I have travelled to almost every other major city in Peru and I have NEVER been approached to buy drugs and almost never see a prostutute. I say almost because once in Iquitos on the malecon a girl was being nice to me, but she was dressed normally and I do not know if she was a working girl, I think she would have gone with me for money, but I do not know and therefore shouldn't accuse her withut proof, but even if so, there was nothing visibly terrible going on that would insult even a prude.

Are there prostitutes and drugs being sold in every major city in Peru? Of course. But I don't see it much, maybe I just ignore it like Peruvians do in their country, and far be it for me to come here and be critical.

What DOES have a far greater impact are the thefts and muggings I do see (and fear). Put the police effort into solving this, as Ollanta seems to be doing, it is a far greater problem than a few working girls and small recreaational drug sales in the parks.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby canadiantraveller » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:32 am

jude wrote:
canadiantraveller wrote:
I agree that it's easy enough to avoid these things, but that's not really my point. What I'm wondering, is if this kind of thing is so out in the open and clear, why don't the police do something about it, put a stop to it. I understand violent crimes are a bigger problem, but I think that neglecting any crime when you know it is happening only shows people they can get away with it and maybe more.

Matt


Like the broken window theory of crime reduction?


Exactly what I was trying to get across. I'm not scared or worried, and I am a pretty chill person, but I do think it might make a difference if police sent a message on all levels that it would not be tolerated.

teamoperu wrote:My first reaction was what the heck, why should they... just becuase some prude Canadian arrives here and doesn't like it? So I didn't post because my mother always said if you don't have something nice to say then say nothing. But on second thought, I do have some positives to say:


Thanks for biting your tongue :) I was not trying to come across as prude. I actually love living here in Peru and don't really have a problem with any of it, despite how this post may have read. It's just always seemed interesting to me that when you have police patrolling a park regularly like in the Plaza d'armas in Cusco that they just walk around and avoid it or act like it's not even there. You don't need to put money into this, the police are already there...just walk over and bust em. I guess as polaron said, quite possibly it's small scale and they don't care.

There certainly are far more serious things going on in the country like theft and muggings, I agree (my apartment has been broken into once and just a couple weeks ago across from my apartment in Pueblo Libre I watched a guy get robbed at gunpoint walking into his house). It's certainly concerning, however I am not really sure how to tackle that one.

Getting rid of these pushers is not going to solve the drug problem entirely, but I do think it would help to send a message on all levels that Peru is moving forward in a new direction and will not tolerate these things. Broken window theory.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:27 pm

Canadian,

It seen to be that your posting has generated a lot of controversy. Probably it was the title of the post about Peru can't clean itself a little bit, making the wrong suposition that Peru is a dirty country.

I am peruvian I got your points and I don't think that your comments were trying to offend Peru in any way. Fom the beginning, you were misunderstood..

And for being consider a prude, you don't have to go so far for finding one. It is me !. I don't drink, don't smoke, try always to sleep at time, say my prayers at night, eat healthy food and don't use any kind of drugs or things like that. So if someone has to be blamed as prude it is me.. I am near to redemption :)
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby teamoperu » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:52 am

I understand your canadian sensibilities are offended and you have that right, but a question, in Peru why does it annoy you and need cleaning up? If like me, every day, every few minutes when I am on the streets or in the park, someone pushes sun glasses in front of my face, someone disturbs my book reading wanting to shine my shoes or sell me candy, someone gets on the combi and has a loud speach falsely claiming how his ineffective medicine will cure anything or god forbid how he has found jesus and I should donate to some cause, puts a chocolate on my lap, someone pushes a tray of candy at me, hands me a document showing they are sick... I could go on. They are just trying to make a buck. Never has anyone pushed drugs at me or you. So, my question is why you decide the drug pushers who are “over there” and not bothering you, bother you? And why police and court reosurces should be wasted to “clean it up” when far more serious crimes are occuring?
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby falconagain » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:51 am

teamoperu wrote:I understand your canadian sensibilities are offended and you have that right, but a question, in Peru why does it annoy you and need cleaning up? If like me, every day, every few minutes when I am on the streets or in the park, someone pushes sun glasses in front of my face, someone disturbs my book reading wanting to shine my shoes or sell me candy, someone gets on the combi and has a loud speach falsely claiming how his ineffective medicine will cure anything or god forbid how he has found jesus and I should donate to some cause, puts a chocolate on my lap, someone pushes a tray of candy at me, hands me a document showing they are sick... I could go on. They are just trying to make a buck. Never has anyone pushed drugs at me or you. So, my question is why you decide the drug pushers who are “over there” and not bothering you, bother you? And why police and court reosurces should be wasted to “clean it up” when far more serious crimes are occuring?


Every country needs to follow a series of conditions or standards in order to guarantee order and prosperity,
awareness of this factors is not made available to the general public in Peru in order to keep them ignorant.
All the things that you mentioned (selling sun glasses on the street, offering to shine shoes, sell candy, selling stuff on combis, is not the way to make buck). It is not wasting resources to clean up all these things.
It is a basic requirement that is specified in any basic textbook of city management (which applies to cities worldwide without exception), the first person that was able to apply all this in Lima was Andrade (Mayor of Miraflores first and then the Mayor of the Lima District), he not only cleaned up the streets but also created more prosperity and employment during his administration.

Peru promotes itself as a nice country that you can visit and is subject to the same basic standards
as the other countries not only due to competition but is also a basic human requirement of human
dignity for all its citizens.

Rama please post something funny, because I am getting too melodramatic with this post.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby el conquistador » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:37 pm

falconagain wrote:All the things that you mentioned (selling sun glasses on the street, offering to shine shoes, sell candy, selling stuff on combis, is not the way to make buck). It is not wasting resources to clean up all these things.


Why should those 'things' be cleaned up?
Those streettraders are just making a living in an honest way. There's nothing wrong with what they do.

They are professional business people. Most of those people make a descent income. No everybody is capable or willing to slave himself out for a boss.
A friend of my gf is selling those laundrybags on the streets in the center of Lima. She sells around 25 of them daily, making a 2 soles profit on each, so thats 50 a day, 6 days a week. 1200 soles a month, not a bad wage. And she studies at evenings at university.

You said that those 'things' should be cleaned up. For most of those people there's no alternative. If people are no longer allowed to make a living on the street, I am sure crime will increase because many of those people will be forced into crime and start pickpocketing, stealing in shops... There no social welfare or unemployment benefits in Peru.

I am sure that when Europe and the US abolish their social welfare and unemployment benefits, their will be a lot of people in the US and Europe selling sunglasses on the street, sell candy on busses and shining shoes.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby Polaron » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:35 pm

falconagain wrote:
teamoperu wrote:I understand your canadian sensibilities are offended and you have that right, but a question, in Peru why does it annoy you and need cleaning up? If like me, every day, every few minutes when I am on the streets or in the park, someone pushes sun glasses in front of my face, someone disturbs my book reading wanting to shine my shoes or sell me candy, someone gets on the combi and has a loud speach falsely claiming how his ineffective medicine will cure anything or god forbid how he has found jesus and I should donate to some cause, puts a chocolate on my lap, someone pushes a tray of candy at me, hands me a document showing they are sick... I could go on. They are just trying to make a buck. Never has anyone pushed drugs at me or you. So, my question is why you decide the drug pushers who are “over there” and not bothering you, bother you? And why police and court reosurces should be wasted to “clean it up” when far more serious crimes are occuring?


Every country needs to follow a series of conditions or standards in order to guarantee order and prosperity,
awareness of this factors is not made available to the general public in Peru in order to keep them ignorant.
All the things that you mentioned (selling sun glasses on the street, offering to shine shoes, sell candy, selling stuff on combis, is not the way to make buck). It is not wasting resources to clean up all these things.
It is a basic requirement that is specified in any basic textbook of city management (which applies to cities worldwide without exception), the first person that was able to apply all this in Lima was Andrade (Mayor of Miraflores first and then the Mayor of the Lima District), he not only cleaned up the streets but also created more prosperity and employment during his administration.

Peru promotes itself as a nice country that you can visit and is subject to the same basic standards
as the other countries not only due to competition but is also a basic human requirement of human
dignity for all its citizens.

Rama please post something funny, because I am getting too melodramatic with this post.


Falcon, I hear what you and Canadian are saying, but remember that you are coming from a different paradigm than Latinos here. The things you find offensive are not that big of a deal to most Peruvians. Now, I'm not saying that Peruvians like those activities or that they approve of them, only that they take a pragmatic approach. They see those activities as minor annoyances that they cannot themselves control, so they look the other way, pretend the person is not even there and just go about their business. I don't think one will find many Latin Americans that scrutinize their towns and cities and say to themselves, "Oh my dog, what will the foreigners think?"
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:58 pm

Polaron, nobody could have explained it better. Your vision of the peruvian mindset on this topic is clear and precise. For some moments I thought you were born here

I wouldn't apply a 1º world country, vision of "how things should be" in a 3º world country; .because simply it wouldn't work. Those standards are great for a country with a wide amount of economical and social resources, where everyone has a possibilty to a decent work, exist a solid social welfare and economical help to unemployed people, people with another mindset, etc.

The first simple question: would those people be working on the streets is they would have a better possibility for working ? the obvious answer is "no"

I would like to put an example in a funny but realistic way. Let say that the government or the mayor of the city decide to "erradicate" those street sellers from the city, just for the cause of having a "more beautiful and organized city". So the new plan is creating an special group of policemen for putting the street traders into groups and later giving them an economical assistant.

Let say at the beginning we have 5,000 people gathered from the streets. the organizers of this idea would say: it is ok. We succeded. We finally accomplished the goal. Now we have a more beautiful city. Wrong !!

Once the rest of the city know the procedure, you will see 50,000 people on the street of Lima selling things in order to receive free help from the government. And probably the most funny thing of this brilliant idea, is that some people who were aided by the government would not only accept that help, also would go back to the streets for selling candies again.. because they also want to make some extra money..

That is not all !. Lima would be visited by some extra 50,000 persons from provinces, for the same reason.

So how to change this ?. The answer is simple again. Economical prosperity for Peru is synonym of better works for everyone and this means having well organized and beautiful cities..
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby falconagain » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:00 am

"El conquistador wrote:
Why should those 'things' be cleaned up? and other words to justify that."

Number of tourist visitors when Peru used to be full of street vendors:
between 100,000 to 250,000 per year most of them with complaints
about the dirt and disorganization of the city due to the actions of
these so called "professional business people"

Number of tourist visitors when Peru has been cleanup from most
of them: 2.27 Million only on the year 2010 and growing. (income
received 2,669 Million).(Wikipedia).

Thanks to the cleanup Tourism in Peru make up the nation's third largest industry.
Generating way more employment, income and wealth that all the street vendors
together. Part of this income goes to the local government which have
defined all street vendors as criminals that need to be arrested.
Peru as a country cannot allow itself to go back to the times
of a 100,000 visitors per year this is why street vendors are correctly
classified as criminals, they create a bad reputation for the country and destroy jobs.

It is very easy to be distracted by the example of a young person or an old person
depending on this job for income, but you need to look at the big picture.

"Polaron
Falcon, I hear what you and Canadian are saying, but remember that you are coming from a different paradigm than Latinos here. ........................"

Well I am Peruvian and Latino, in my youth I worked as a street vendor and I have seen the advantages
(very few) and shortcomings of this business model (mafias, subemployment, slavery, etc). And while
it is true that most peruvians are not aware of things that are offensive, they all think that they
are entitled to jobs. But in order to generate those jobs you need to comply with a series of
conditions for any industry. (in this case Tourism) The decision is theirs, if you want to go back
to have more poverty just allow the increase of street vendors and you will soon see that we will
be back where everything started.


"windsportinperu
I wouldn't apply a 1º world country, vision of "how things should be" in a 3º world country; .because simply it wouldn't work. Those standards are great for a country with a wide amount of economical and social resources, where everyone has a possibilty to a decent work, exist a solid social welfare and economical help to unemployed people, people with another mindset, etc."

But it has worked, and it is being applied even today. Peru has paid a lot of money to American
Consultants in different fields through the years in order to grow the tourism industry and it
has worked with a degree of unprecedented success. You can read that in the articles below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Peru

http://www.americaeconomia.com/negocios ... m-en-ingre

The reason of the success it is because Peru has actually applied 1º world country, vision of "how things should be" in a 3º world country. You can see the millions of dollars coming in that are proving this right,
the real professional business people are the ones that took the risk and invested in Peru.

"windsportinperu
The first simple question: would those people be working on the streets is they would have a better possibility for working ? the obvious answer is "no" "

Those people working on the street are just taking advantage and destroying the jobs of the people
that are working in the tourism industry.

"el conquistador
I am sure that when Europe and the US abolish their social welfare and unemployment benefits, their will be a lot of people in the US and Europe selling sunglasses on the street, sell candy on busses and shining shoes."

Actually those systems are collapsing right now, we will soon have a lot of old people living under a bridge on both sides of the Atlantic.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby teamoperu » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:51 pm

What? Tourism has increased dramatically worldwide, including Peru, and not because Peru banned street vendors... besides, your suggestion that the banning of street vendors increased tourism, well, street vendors still exist by the mountain full and tourism increased, so your argument falls short in two ways.

No one in Peru actually likes having sun glasses poked in their faces, but most just ignore it (or would have to fight 1000 battles per day), excepting places like Miraflores who have the ban inforced not so much for tourism, though they know it helps their image, but rather the community has the pizzaz to have it enforced for their own peace and well being.

Banning street vendors has little to do with increasing tourism, rather taxes. Unlicenced street vendors pay nothing to the government. Stores (some) pay taxes. Street vendors sell the same as the stores, so no wonder the stores who pay taxes can have them banned... but enfrocing the ban is difficult, they serve a purpose. I sure like being able to buy water from the window of a bus when on a long trip.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby falconagain » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:41 pm

Well there is a book called Que vuelvan los turistas (Arellano Marketing, 2009) which compiles
information from the Peruvian Tourism Ministry (Mincetur), the INEI, articles from El Comercio
y la Republica where they talk about the correlation between the amount of street vendors and
the increase of tourism in Peru (so it is not only because tourism has increased worldwide that
people visit Peru, but also due to a properly made clean up which also included the operation
of getting rid of street vendors). Now all companies base their business in the information
provided by the above sources and make a good profit of it so maybe they are doing something
right.

Now about your argument that "street vendors still exist by the mountain", this shows that you
have either never lived in Peru for an extended period of time or that you do not go out too much.
Before 2001 we had street vendors by the mountain that were successfully removed. At that moment
street vendors were so powerful that they could close avenues and streets at will. But now not
much remains, the new street vendors that you see now are way less than before .

The tax issue used too affect the government in the years previous to 2001, now it is very easy fine,
then find and make pay taxes to any street vendor if the government wants to.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby teamoperu » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:19 pm

Ok, if you insist.. but I bet I could make a correlation between the decrease in VW Bugs on the street and an increase in tourism... bugs decreased, tourism increased, hence the decrease in VW bugs increased tourism... voila :D
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:58 am

Street vendors aren't a problem for the increase of tourism in Peru. Safety is the real problem (muggings and pickpocketing) and this is where the authorities should put all the effort.

Sellers on the street is the result of the economy of country. The more money and possibilities the country has for their citizens to have decent works, the less street vendors you will see..
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby rama0929 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:22 am

teamoperu wrote: someone gets on the combi and has a loud speach falsely claiming how his ineffective medicine will cure anything...


Must be our friend in the news and views section :mrgreen:
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby rama0929 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:39 am

Polaron wrote:Falcon, I hear what you and Canadian are saying, but remember that you are coming from a different paradigm than Latinos here. The things you find offensive are not that big of a deal to most Peruvians. Now, I'm not saying that Peruvians like those activities or that they approve of them, only that they take a pragmatic approach. They see those activities as minor annoyances that they cannot themselves control, so they look the other way, pretend the person is not even there and just go about their business. I don't think one will find many Latin Americans that scrutinize their towns and cities and say to themselves, "Oh my dog, what will the foreigners think?"


Greetings and salutations from the 1st world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ticUdOfSGuA

http://youtu.be/Uxpt2eCm0ig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kVLbrSmT7E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o4KLYw251g

http://youtu.be/GAlHmDEiWB8

Just another day on the MTA :lol:
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby tomsax » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:34 pm

When I first went to Peru in 1987 there were load of street venders, including in Miraflores. The tourists loved them. The only people I heard complaining about them were Peruvians who seemed to think it was an embarrassment. When I came back years later they took me to Jocky Plaza etc thinking I would be impressed. Sure it was all very impressive but you don't go to Peru for modern shopping centres, at least most people don't.
Tom
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby falconagain » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:13 pm

tomsax wrote:When I first went to Peru in 1987 there were load of street venders, including in Miraflores. The tourists loved them. The only people I heard complaining about them were Peruvians who seemed to think it was an embarrassment. When I came back years later they took me to Jocky Plaza etc thinking I would be impressed. Sure it was all very impressive but you don't go to Peru for modern shopping centres, at least most people don't.


Which tourists, the amount of visitors on that year was 50,000 or maybe less than 25,000 (I was not able
to find a report with detailed numbers). Peru was blacklisted as a safe travel destination and discouraged
as a Tourism destination. We were called the Calcuta of America not the Gastronomic Capital of South
America. The government started overprinting money and the economy totally collapsed. Crime and
Terrorism owned the streets on a daily basis. We had daily bombs, terrorist attacking police stations,
military installation, power stations (candles became the stable in every house), rampant inflation.

Many Peruvians hated street vendors because they killed all small businesses, they paid no taxes, they
got the streets more dirty and on top of that they were organized in mafias that made sure that there
was no free trade between them. Less than 50 families controlled all street vendors (you had to be
related to this families in some way to make money). Due to the lack of taxes the garbage was not picked up on time (if there was ever a pickup), the whole city smelled to rotten garbage, this situation remained the same for four years until we got a Cholera outbreak.

Maybe you were in another country at that time.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby el conquistador » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:41 pm

windsportinperu wrote:Street vendors aren't a problem for the increase of tourism in Peru. Safety is the real problem (muggings and pickpocketing) and this is where the authorities should put all the effort.

Sellers on the street is the result of the economy of country. The more money and possibilities the country has for their citizens to have decent works, the less street vendors you will see..


If street vending is banned then an alternative for those street vendors has to be found. Most of those street vendors won't find another job because of lack of skills and education. And most businesses won't employ them because many street vendors are old, sick or disabled.
I've seen many vendadores de caramelos on combis who are disabled and walking with crutches. Who's going to give them a job?

teamoperu wrote:Banning street vendors has little to do with increasing tourism, rather taxes. Unlicenced street vendors pay nothing to the government. Stores (some) pay taxes. Street vendors sell the same as the stores, so no wonder the stores who pay taxes can have them banned.


Street venders do pay taxes. They buy their merchandise from whole salers so they pay taxes on their purchases.

If the 'official' businesses consider streetvendors as unfair competition then those businesses should pay more taxes so that street venders can given disability benefits or unemployment benefits.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby tomsax » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:00 pm

falconagain wrote:Crime and
Terrorism owned the streets on a daily basis. We had daily bombs, terrorist attacking police stations,
military installation, power stations (candles became the stable in every house), rampant inflation.



oh yes there was that as well, which I think kept a lot of tourists away... and the street venders had nothing to do with it.
Tom
el conquistador

Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby el conquistador » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:26 pm

Street vendors don't bother me. Streetvenders are there because people buy from them.

And for some of those vendors there's no alternative. In Peru, if you are disabled, sick or old and got no family would can take care of you then...you end up on the street.

And on the street there are two options. Honestly selling things or stealing.

When I am on a bus and a disabled person tries to sell me a caramelo then I give him 20 or 50 cents without taking a caramelo. It's sad but for those disabled or old people begging or selling caramelos is the only option to make a living.
Some people consider them as a nuisance but imagine yourself. Sick, old or disabled. What are you going to do?
There's no welfare office in Peru.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:15 pm

The conversation has arrived to a point where is important to make some differences:

Street vendor = vendedor ambulante. But from the point of view of this conversation we have to main groups:

1) Those that are permanently located on a place on the street. For example some people who take a place on a main avenue or main street for selling their merchandise and don't pay taxes ..
2) The "walking the street" seller. Usually the one who sell candies, different kind of stuff in buses, shoeshiners, etc.

The conversation initially pointed to the group 2) and not the group 1)

In the case of group 1) , sometimes they usually take advantage of the situation. For those who don't know so much about Lima of about 20 years ago, "polvos azules" began with a group of sellers who took an street (actually malecon Chabuca Granda) next to "Palacio de Gobierno" in the heart of the dowtown. This kind of seller are easier to organized and give them a better opportunity to relocate in a better place and finally pay taxes.

In the case of group 2) it is practically imposible to relocate in a place for obvious reasons..
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby rama0929 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:23 pm

el conquistador wrote:I've seen many vendadores de caramelos on combis who are disabled and walking with crutches. Who's going to give them a job?


Euroman?
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby Polaron » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:25 am

One thing that surprised me when I first arrived in Lima was the absence of young children on street corners selling chicles. They are quite common in Mexico; in fact, when I was in university, a friend of mine told me that he had sold them for years, starting when he was six years old. His mother told him, "I'm saving up to buy a house, so if you want to eat, you'd better bring in some money." I was shocked when I heard that, so little Juan Ramón would go out after school every day in Guadalajara until he had made "30 pesitos," which in the late 1960s was what his mother demanded from him (about $2.50 U.S. at the time).

Now, if young kids were in the streets selling in the U.S., they would be snatched up by cops, good samaritans and also a few pederasts, though in Mexico nothing ever seemed to happen to them (at least nothing was ever reported publicly). Weird, eh?
Professional, bilingual writer at your service.
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby MarcoPE » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:30 am

rama0929 wrote:Euroman?


Hilarious... I had that same notion :lol:
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby renodante » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:33 am

rama0929 wrote:
el conquistador wrote:I've seen many vendadores de caramelos on combis who are disabled and walking with crutches. Who's going to give them a job?


Euroman?


HAHAHA
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Re: Why can't Peru clean itself up a little bit.

Postby Chiclayo gringo » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:23 pm

Your question assumes a universal definition of ‘clean’ but I won’t belabor that point now.

Granted that at my age I’m not going to be targeted by drug dealers and prostitutes, but after three years of extensive involvement in communities in the Lambayeque Region my impression is that drugs, alcohol and prostitution are not a significant issue for locals or tourists.

I know drugs are available in Chiclayo, but I don’t see blatant drug dealing or people high on drugs. I see lots of beer consumed on the streets by younger men primarily on weekends, but I don’t see drunkenness. Regarding prostitution, probably every man, women and child over ten can tell you where the brothels in Chiclayo are located and how to get to them. The collection points where anywhere from 15 to 25 taxis are lined up waiting to transport customers are no secret.

I have not heard of or observed the prostitutes working the streets being aggressive. In the two instances where I’ve been approached – once in Chiclayo and the other in Tarapoto, both women used the quizzical ‘I’m available smile’ approach as they slowly walked past. Shoe shine guys are much more aggressive and annoying than that.

Tom

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