The right to work trumps all other rights

Answers to your qestions about moving to, and living in, Peru,
teamoperu
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The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby teamoperu » Mon May 07, 2012 6:53 am

Observations are not criticisms. A series of observations can lead to a tentative conclusion.

Observations: An ambulante gets on a combi. Not one just selling a pop or caramelos, but one with a speech... selling a medicine that cures cancer. The cobrero tells him to get off the bus. The estafadora refuses. A verbal dust off ensues. The bus guy says ambulantes are prohibited. The snake oil salesman says he has a right to work, and refuses to leave. Many on the bus seem to sympathize with the nuisance, seemingly agreeing he has the right to work, regardless of bus policy. The bus guy gives up, the seller wins.

Chatting with the taxistas at the airport. No, I do not want a taxi, why are you bothering me? I am working. So your work is to molest everyone leaving the airport? No, just offering my services. But you are molesting thousands of people daily, is that your chamba? No, I am working. Yes, I understand you have a right to work, but what about the people you bother, do they not have a right to tranquillity? The classic Peruvian smile... yes, they have a right to tranquillity, but I am just working.

Sitting, having a nice meal in a restaurant. A second ambulante approaches, this time pushing sunglasses in my face. Why are you bothering me, don't you see I am eating, I don't come to your home when you are eating and bother you! But they are Raybans, he says. As I reach for the steak knife to stab him in the throat the waiter approaches to shoe him out of the restaurant, probably for the umpteenth time that day, but the estafadora is already retreating out the door. He knew it was against restaurant policy for him to enter, but after all, he is just working.

I ask my Peruvian dinner mate: does it not bother you to be molested in a restaurant? Yes, but he is only working. :shock:

My conclusion: in Peru, the right to work trumps all the other rights such as private property rights, personal space rights, right to tranquillity, etc. Is my conclusion correct?


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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby captsirl » Mon May 07, 2012 7:50 am

Better to remove the word WORK
Peruvians will never achieve much collectively because each and every one feels they have the right and the rules are for the other person.
Police have to be posted at traffic lights during rush hour because they will not follow the rules to give everyone a fair chance to proceed.
Police have to be posted up everywhere or they will just return doing what they want.
The live by IT"S ME, ITS ONLY ONCE, ME ME ME.
Name several countries you have lived in where the police have to walk around with full automatic machine guns. Riot gear is never far from sight. Its apparent that when not kept on a short leash they will revert to anarchy.
Thus the reason only outsiders benefit from all the great resources that Peru has to offer.
We can only hope their offspring learn fast.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby falconagain » Mon May 07, 2012 8:38 am

They are fast in demanding their rights. But they never recognize the rights of other people.
If a person that appears to be well off falls in hard times and starts working in the same type
of business he will be shunned and attacked, his supposed right to work will be ignored.

Like the saying goes: I demand freedom for myself but if other person asks for freedom
I will ignore him because it is inconvenient to me.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby goingnowherefast » Mon May 07, 2012 8:56 am

Peruvians don't understand that if they see someone roam onto their private property, and then they kick them to the curb, their neighbor is going to see and say "hell, that looks like fun, I'm going to start doing that too" then eventually everyone will do it and no one will roam onto private property anymore. Instead, they do what they do best and just ignore it, take the easy road out and make up some excuse to legitimize it.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby SilverbackPeru » Mon May 07, 2012 10:53 am

I really think there could be a lot of benefits from getting rid of the Me,Me,Me attitude in Peru. You definitely wouldn´t have the following problems! The total chaos that is driving in Peru, being bashed about like a dodgem car while trying to walk anywhere in Lima, The inability to understand what a queue is!! ( this one never fails to amaze me! how someone who is behind you in a queue will just walk on past you to a cashier with no regards what so ever!), the stampede that happens when people try to leave a lift while the people waiting try to enter at the same time as they can´t be bothered to let the people leave first, when theres only 3 people in the lift but they still stand at the enterance and will not move to the back of the lift even if there is 7 or 8 people that need in! and also theres probably the ME tax in business as well where a little bit is scrapped off the top for i guess you could call it their own personal fee!!!

As for the people pushing the hard sell, i admit its really really annoying. Theres times when you just can´t walk round Miraflores without being harassed for cash! I think the worst i´ve had is about 11 times in one hour! but despite how hard it makes your day i do try to remember the fact that for Most people life in Peru is not easy and a soft sell techniques never really works for anyone! But saying that if someone says get off my bus! you get off he bus!
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Mon May 07, 2012 1:27 pm

This subject is right on, I have a very close relative that struck and killed two people while they ran across the Pan American Hwy which is tragic for everyone, driver included. The first thing out of the mouths of the relatives was we want MONEY ! you must pay for the funeral, you must pay restitution !
My relative would have helped ,but after they demanded he got a lawyer, it was determined the driver did nothing wrong and the fault lays with the pedestrians, they still want the blood money which they will not get !!!!
I'm sorry but the people here just don't get it, and they don't care..........
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Alan
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby Alan » Mon May 07, 2012 2:05 pm

captsirl wrote:Better to remove the word WORK
Peruvians will never achieve much collectively because each and every one feels they have the right and the rules are for the other person.
Police have to be posted at traffic lights during rush hour because they will not follow the rules to give everyone a fair chance to proceed.
Police have to be posted up everywhere or they will just return doing what they want.
The live by IT"S ME, ITS ONLY ONCE, ME ME ME.
Name several countries you have lived in where the police have to walk around with full automatic machine guns. Riot gear is never far from sight. Its apparent that when not kept on a short leash they will revert to anarchy.
Thus the reason only outsiders benefit from all the great resources that Peru has to offer.
We can only hope their offspring learn fast.


Captsgirl, I usually enjoy your posts, but find this last one really surprising and even upsetting.

"Each and every one feels"???? So.. you have dealt with "each and every Peruvian" in order to reach this conclusion? I don´t think you have because the vast majority of the Peruvians that I know do not fit your stereotype. The language you use, "short leash" and "offspring" is a really poor choice of words in my view.

I won´t deny that this can be a hard place to live at times - traffic is worse than you are used to and there are street sellers - but the kinds of generalizations you and a couple others are putting across are really unfair. The OP asked an interesting question that deserves some thoughtful answers: How about spending time to understand and explain the reasons behind the problems instead of judging and making sweeping criticisms?

Slds,
Alan
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby renodante » Mon May 07, 2012 3:20 pm

About a year and a half ago I was breaking up with a girl I was an "official" boyfriend of for about a year and a half, I did it in Parque Kennedy (not out of choice, the circumstances of the conversation/situation led me to know I had to do it right then and there). I'm sitting down on a park bench with her, breaking the news and she is crying hysterically I mean, sobbing loudly and obviously devastated. I'm trying to console her when I hear a voice behind me. It's a guy in his 20's....selling roses. He has the rose in my face, and I wave him off. He keeps pushing it. I shoot him this look that "I'm about to commit murder if you don't get out of here" and he shoots me a defiant look back. I turn and try talking to her again, she's still sobbing and I look in her eyes and her eyes are behind me, looking over my shoulder. I turn, and this m$%%$%#er is STILL there, with a rose in my face. I lost my mind and pretty much screamed, in English, "GET THE &%&% OUT OF MY FACE YOU IGNORANT &%&%$#"

People are often poor due to being born into impossible circumstances, and even if they're intelligent, hard-working, etc, they often can't get ahead because of the hand they are dealt. But when I run into people like the guy above, I find myself wishing for natural selection to remove people like him from the gene pool, promptly. That level of clueless stupidity is incurable.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Mon May 07, 2012 3:54 pm

"Each and every one feels"???? So.. you have dealt with "each and every Peruvian" in order to reach this conclusion? I don´t think you have because the vast majority of the Peruvians that I know do not fit your stereotype. The language you use, "short leash" and "offspring" is a really poor choice of words

Of coarse not you twit, if you had any knowledge of other cultures that's euphonism ( not sure of the spelling) I am sure " each and every Peruvian" are the ones she has delt with................
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby Alan » Mon May 07, 2012 4:21 pm

bobg wrote:
Of coarse not you twit, if you had any knowledge of other cultures that's euphonism ( not sure of the spelling) I am sure " each and every Peruvian" are the ones she has delt with................




What an incredibly rude response, Bob. BTW, you also use broad terms like "the people here don´t care".... Is this another one of your "euphonisms"? (whatever the heck that is!) Maybe you mean "euphemisms? In which case, your answer still does little to justify the use of broad generalizations to tarnish an entire population.

Look, I am not trying to be PC here, I am just calling for a bit of attention to the language folks use which could- intentionally or unintentionally - end up insulting an awful lot of people. Re-read the posts; I really don´think I am exaggerating.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby douglas8 » Mon May 07, 2012 4:35 pm

wow alan wades in on this one...

yeah some of the language is beyond disgusting with the leash business you are equating humans to animals something the nazis did.

alan...i've had peruvians (several) tell me that peruvians (as in all as in sweeping statements) are not to be trusted and don't follow rules...ever....not PC but that is a common local view on things...i'm sure you've heard it as well...whether it is correct or not is another question but if peruvians feel that way from living here all their lives it goes that a foreigner might reach the same conclusion.

does anybody have any views on the reasons behind these behaviours?
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby Alan » Mon May 07, 2012 4:54 pm

douglas8 wrote:wow alan wades in on this one...

yeah some of the language is beyond disgusting with the leash business you are equating humans to animals something the nazis did.

alan...i've had peruvians (several) tell me that peruvians (as in all as in sweeping statements) are not to be trusted and don't follow rules...ever....not PC but that is a common local view on things...i'm sure you've heard it as well...whether it is correct or not is another question but if peruvians feel that way from living here all their lives it goes that a foreigner might reach the same conclusion.

does anybody have any views on the reasons behind these behaviours?



Yeah, I have heard it, too "We are this way" "We are that way", but when it come from us foreigners, it sounds far worse: Like an accusation as opposed to an admission of guilt.

Again - I don´t want to make a huge deal out of this and hope we can get back to the topic at hand - but why not make the extra effort when writing and avoid generalizations? The topic, and the audience, is better served.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Mon May 07, 2012 5:39 pm

why not make the extra effort when writing and avoid generalizations? The topic, and the audience, is better served.

perhaps you could instruct us less socially informed persons , I believe the socially correct way you prefer
us to behave is only limiting my RIGHT TO WORK>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I do apologize if I offended you or any Peruvians I have met or those I haven't met >>>>>
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby falconagain » Mon May 07, 2012 6:27 pm

douglas8 wrote:wow alan wades in on this one...

yeah some of the language is beyond disgusting with the leash business you are equating humans to animals something the nazis did.

alan...i've had peruvians (several) tell me that peruvians (as in all as in sweeping statements) are not to be trusted and don't follow rules...ever....not PC but that is a common local view on things...i'm sure you've heard it as well...whether it is correct or not is another question but if peruvians feel that way from living here all their lives it goes that a foreigner might reach the same conclusion.

does anybody have any views on the reasons behind these behaviours?


The reasons of this behavior were determined by Salazar Bondy in 1966.
This is a small extract of his work.
(I have posted more at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18654&start=60)
The original text is here:
http://www.monografias.com/trabajos912/ ... dad2.shtml
(It mentions all the books that have studied Peru from many views (by Peruvians and Foreigners).)

Still if this behavior is so common I do not understand why hide it. All societies have self criticism,
some more sincere than others.

The profile of native (Alva, 1965) includes the features of:


a. Opportunism and manipulation, it directed towards the achievement of all the privileges, with minimal effort and in the shortest time possible, using wit, playfulness and surprise. One such instrument is the use of bribery or 'Cutra "contributing to the spread of corruption, undermines the viability of a society and the credibility of governments, distorts investment, encourages the operation of the Public Administration and degrades the citizen.

b. Careerism, described above, and letting you move up without scruples of any kind, with opportunism and reckless daring tricks.

c. Improvisation and postponement of obligations to the last minute, doing things "a la criolla" carelessly, lack of rigor, without foresight though often with wit and inventiveness.

d. Presenteeism, which leads him to seize and enjoy the moment. Fundamentantes beliefs are the "living the binge eating but not tomorrow" or the "dance, dance, the world will end."

e. Fatalism, as described above and to prevent serious and clearly projected into the future.

The Peruvian cunning finds its sources in the culture of domination and dependence (Salazar Bondy, 1966), especially in the features of: mystification of values, attitudes and inauthenticity of improvisation purposes."
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Mon May 07, 2012 6:53 pm

I couldn't have said it better>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby captsirl » Mon May 07, 2012 9:36 pm

OK when I'm wrong I'm wrong
In my my previous post I was just being mean. I could make up excuses for what I said, but that's all they would be. I read it again and thought about the edit button . But that would only be a cowards way out. I thought about waiting until tomorrow but again that would be the cowards way out.
I have been a victim of some of these infractions my self but if they meant that much what the heck am I doing here. Most of us don't know of the plight that shaped why they do what they do. And many of us don't have to deal with it if we elect to tap on the electric window and seal the world out. We shop with plastic debit cards not credit cards, yet we complain of someone so desperate for money they push their luck longer than we can tolerate just to sell us something.
I know I can be the part of the horse that went over the fence last.
Alan thanks for the PM
All I can say is sorry
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby chi chi » Tue May 08, 2012 1:52 am

teamoperu wrote:My conclusion: in Peru, the right to work trumps all the other rights such as private property rights, personal space rights, right to tranquillity, etc. Is my conclusion correct?


Those vendadores ambulantes are doing an honest job. They don't do that job because they want to but they have to. They would rather have a regular job with guaranteed pay but there aren't enough jobs available in Peru.

Teamoperu, if you are bothered by those vendadores ambulantes then the solution is simple. Everybody pays 40% tax on his income (like in most European countries) and with that money vendadores ambulantes and beggars can be paid unemployment benefit.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby teamoperu » Tue May 08, 2012 4:51 am

falconagain wrote:
douglas8 wrote:wow alan wades in on this one...

yeah some of the language is beyond disgusting with the leash business you are equating humans to animals something the nazis did.

alan...i've had peruvians (several) tell me that peruvians (as in all as in sweeping statements) are not to be trusted and don't follow rules...ever....not PC but that is a common local view on things...i'm sure you've heard it as well...whether it is correct or not is another question but if peruvians feel that way from living here all their lives it goes that a foreigner might reach the same conclusion.

does anybody have any views on the reasons behind these behaviours?


The reasons of this behavior were determined by Salazar Bondy in 1966.
This is a small extract of his work.
(I have posted more at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18654&start=60)
The original text is here:
http://www.monografias.com/trabajos912/ ... dad2.shtml
(It mentions all the books that have studied Peru from many views (by Peruvians and Foreigners).)
...
The Peruvian cunning finds its sources in the culture of domination and dependence (Salazar Bondy, 1966), especially in the features of: mystification of values, attitudes and inauthenticity of improvisation purposes."


I've read and reread this, and the Spanish version, and fail to find any relevance to the topic at hand, it is just a bunch of words generalizing a population. My question remains unanswered, I think. Is it a correct conclusion that the right to work seemingly trumps all other rights in Peru?
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby teamoperu » Tue May 08, 2012 5:02 am

[quote="bobg"] I believe the socially correct way you prefer us to behave is only limiting my RIGHT TO WORK quote]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this comment is an example of what I am wondering about?

As the comment might suggest, "the socially correct way you prefer us to behave" to wit, I do not want you to interrupt my peaceful enjoy my of dinner (my right) is "limiting my RIGHT TO WORK". Your statement is exactly what I have been observing, right?

(Please note that I do not begrudge anyone a living, in fact I shake my head in amazement and admiration at what some people will do for a few soles, good for them, but all rights have limitations, and often rights have a hierarchy)
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby goingnowherefast » Tue May 08, 2012 6:34 am

Alan... you're the admin of forums where a very large percentage of what is said is foreigners publicly degrading Peruvian politicians. Frankly I don't know how it's gone unnoticed here, but google what happens to those, particularly Westerners, who have done the same thing (speak bad about local politicians on forums/blogs) in Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela and Mexico.

I just don't see how a guy is going to publicly facilitate a forum for foreigners to openly criticize Peruvian politicians, using much harsher verbage than has been used in this thread, and get offended when we call Peruvians selfish.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Tue May 08, 2012 10:01 am

1) I pay taxes in Peru and USA I think that both countries are NOT socialistic , ( 40% tax such as Europe)
That leads to more people me and you are supporting , and no doubt doing the same thing. I.E. CHI CHI
2)Excuse me wheres our free speech ? we don't live in those countries mentioned . that is part of the reasons you all chose Peru. Why would you ( goingnowherefast) good name , even begin to blame the moderator for the comments here in? He's doing what he should be doing ,you are the one who is trying to subvert and censor how people feel and think ( socially correct) Commenting on political parties and persons is not a crime it may be distasteful, their PUBLIC PERSONS they do not have the same status as a privet person , look at the mud slinging in the US elections.Are you threatening Allan ? to me that is the most distasteful thing tn these posts.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby chi chi » Tue May 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Teamoperu, imagine yourself have to sell snacks on buses. 7 days a week and up to 16 hours a day barely making enough money to feed your family.

How would you react if someone treats you like you are an insect or like a piece of dirt? What would you think if a gringo eats a steak in a topclass restaurant and you are very hungry and the gringo chases you away like your are a stray dog?

If they see a gringo, then it's normal they do the extra effort to sell something to the gringo. Because they can charge a little bit extra and the gringo will buy something. Even if the gringo doesn't need what the vendador is selling, he will likely buy it to help him out.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby teamoperu » Wed May 09, 2012 6:00 am

In speaking frankly with a sunglasses seller in northern Peru, he indicates that he sells between 11-20 sunglasses a day. He buys in Lima for s/ 2 and sells in the north for s/ 20. So average 15 pairs at s/ 18 profit equals s/ 8000 a month. No wonder there are so many sunglasses ambulantes there!
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby stuart » Wed May 09, 2012 9:55 am

teamoperu wrote:In speaking frankly with a sunglasses seller in northern Peru, he indicates that he sells between 11-20 sunglasses a day. He buys in Lima for s/ 2 and sells in the north for s/ 20. So average 15 pairs at s/ 18 profit equals s/ 8000 a month. No wonder there are so many sunglasses ambulantes there!


He's lying to appear successful. They arrive in Lima's mercado central from China at about s/.10, and he makes about that per pair, minus shipping to northern Peru.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Wed May 09, 2012 10:42 am

It all comes down to choices, if you chose not to allow these people to invade your space, and those people
ignore your choice, and chose to do it, they risk the consequences .
Case in point I have another friend who just had her car rear ended buy a young lady who opened her window to except a flyer, instead she got her jewelry ripped off of her neck,she stomped on the gas , and ran into the car in front of her. Bad choice , who knows when this will happen? no one does, it's your choice better to be on the safe side.
Just because you are disadvantaged , it doesn't mean you can do want you want !
Life is full of choices , you can make bad or good ones it's up to you>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby lizzym » Wed May 09, 2012 1:20 pm

I know Alan wanted to focus on the "topic at hand", and while this is related to some of the posts in this thread, call it off topic if you will. Nonetheless, here goes:

With all due respect to the PC camp, it's a little ridiculous to talk about whether "all" of a society or people demonstrate the behavior or belief at hand. Never in the history of humanity has this ever been the case for anything, anywhere.

What is realistic to discuss, however, are patterns, majority behaviors/beliefs, and what constitutes "normal".

Your background and the culture that you come from define your sense of what it "normal". My boyfriend often says that our daughter will be proud of her parents for certain actions that you rarely see in Lima. But I don't want her to think that these things are particularly special. I want her to think they are normal. And for that to happen, the dominant experience in her life must be defined these things, and not have them reserved for an occasional footnote. The majority of people she meets and learns her social cues from must demonstrate the respect and consideration for others that I want her to demonstrate.

It hardly matters if some few people are not disrespectful, selfish, aggressive, etc. And it hardly matters (for this purpose) what people are like in their homes and families, safely tucked away from the observations of society. What the majority of people do out in society - to others, to strangers - is what defines normal. It dominates our everyday experiences and quality of life (unless, of course, you stay cooped up in your own home all the time.)

Thinking that showing respect and consideration inside the home is enough, leads to the practice of badmouthing the "others" who do not show these characteristics in society, but who probably similarly show them in their families. So children learn to blame and judge everyone else for society's ills - while being proud of their own families and feeling better than what they see on the outside. And of course that only feeds the fragmentation and open disregard between people in society, strengthening the "us" versus "them".

But I'm not idealistic. Things like this don't change unless people (the majority of people) want them to change. And that requires calling a tendency what it is, and throwing PC to the wind.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby roddd » Wed May 09, 2012 2:57 pm

chi chi wrote:Teamoperu, imagine yourself have to sell snacks on buses. 7 days a week and up to 16 hours a day barely making enough money to feed your family.

How would you react if someone treats you like you are an insect or like a piece of dirt? What would you think if a gringo eats a steak in a topclass restaurant and you are very hungry and the gringo chases you away like your are a stray dog?

If they see a gringo, then it's normal they do the extra effort to sell something to the gringo. Because they can charge a little bit extra and the gringo will buy something. Even if the gringo doesn't need what the vendador is selling, he will likely buy it to help him out.


you like that word don't you
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby douglas8 » Wed May 09, 2012 3:36 pm

wow i have to say lizzmy wrote a very interesting and thought provoking post...and it is very true that there is a strong disconnect between people's attitudes in the street and then indoors...

i have had lovely students who are caring parents great with their co-workers etc and then offer to drive me home where i then witness them driving like criminals nearly killing elderly women crossing the street and other horrible incidents...and yet it is the same person...indoors lovely human being..outdoors a selfish dangerous criminal..

i don't get it...but i don't think it can be truly understood...but it is clear it needs to be changed if the society is to move ahead..rules are for all or they are nothing.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby teamoperu » Thu May 10, 2012 11:24 am

stuart wrote:He's lying to appear successful. They arrive in Lima's mercado central from China at about s/.10, and he makes about that per pair, minus shipping to northern Peru.


Well, actually at the entrance to Mesa Redondo near the church there is a booth there for some time selling sunglasses for s/.3 each, por mayor s/.2 so that part of his story is correct. Even using your numbers he is still making alot, which was my point. :D
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby leidulvstad » Thu May 10, 2012 1:25 pm

I know it is OT but what "PC" stands for?
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Thu May 10, 2012 2:29 pm

Better to remove the word WORK
Peruvians will never achieve much collectively because each and every one feels they have the right and the rules are for the other person.
Police have to be posted at traffic lights during rush hour because they will not follow the rules to give everyone a fair chance to proceed.
Police have to be posted up everywhere or they will just return doing what they want.
The live by IT"S ME, ITS ONLY ONCE, ME ME ME.
Name several countries you have lived in where the police have to walk around with full automatic machine guns. Riot gear is never far from sight. Its apparent that when not kept on a short leash they will revert to anarchy.
Thus the reason only outsiders benefit from all the great resources that Peru has to offer.
I am not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked by all the people around them. I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.. The important question is: 'What are they in a position to do about it?'"--- :oops: :oops: :oops: :shock: :shock: :shock: :? :? :?
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby captsirl » Thu May 10, 2012 11:07 pm

I am not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked by all the people around them. I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.. The important question is: 'What are they in a position to do about it?'"--- :oops: :oops: :oops: :shock: :shock: :shock: :? :? :?

"Amen"
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby teamoperu » Fri May 11, 2012 6:31 am

leidulvstad wrote:I know it is OT but what "PC" stands for?


pc = politically correct
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby chi chi » Fri May 11, 2012 6:37 am

Alan wrote:Yeah, I have heard it, too "We are this way" "We are that way", but when it come from us foreigners, it sounds far worse: Like an accusation as opposed to an admission of guilt.

Again - I don´t want to make a huge deal out of this and hope we can get back to the topic at hand - but why not make the extra effort when writing and avoid generalizations? The topic, and the audience, is better served.


I don't understand those people that are complaining so much about Peruvians their behaviour and how they live.
Just go back to your own country and you will no longer have to worry about Peruvian behaviour and way of living.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby captsirl » Fri May 11, 2012 7:08 am

There is business to be done here
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Fri May 11, 2012 9:19 am

captsirl wrote:OK when I'm wrong I'm wrong
In my my previous post I was just being mean. I could make up excuses for what I said, but that's all they would be. I read it again and thought about the edit button . But that would only be a cowards way out. I thought about waiting until tomorrow but again that would be the cowards way out.
I have been a victim of some of these infractions my self but if they meant that much what the heck am I doing here. Most of us don't know of the plight that shaped why they do what they do. And many of us don't have to deal with it if we elect to tap on the electric window and seal the world out. We shop with plastic debit cards not credit cards, yet we complain of someone so desperate for money they push their luck longer than we can tolerate just to sell us something.
I know I can be the part of the horse that went over the fence last.
Alan thanks for the PM
All I can say is sorry

Amen :?
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby Kelly » Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 am

chi chi wrote:I don't understand those people that are complaining so much about Peruvians their behaviour and how they live.
Just go back to your own country and you will no longer have to worry about Peruvian behaviour and way of living.


Perhaps as much as things here might annoy them, things in their own country annoy them more?

Perhaps they actually love Peru and love the people and love the culture, but sometimes things grate on their nerves and it's nice to be able to let it out?

Perhaps they really don't like it here, but are under a contract that must be completed before they can go home? Perhaps despite being unhappy, they aren't quitters and plan of fulfilling their responsibilities?

This is an Expat forum - where foreigners living in Peru are allowed to talk about the things that make living here difficult for them. Despite any annoyances, there are as many reasons to stay as there are expats. Just because there are some things that bother them about adjusting to a different culture doesn't mean that the only advice should be a childish "Then why don't you go home?"
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Fri May 11, 2012 12:49 pm

Kelly your last post sums it up better then anyone has on this post, as I said before it comes down to choices , and people can't tell you what choices you have to make,or how to make them, places like this can guide you it's up to you!
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Fri May 11, 2012 8:42 pm

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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby captsirl » Fri May 11, 2012 11:08 pm

bobg wrote:http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-2096-Peruvians-least-law-abiding-in-the-region-says-new-survey/

.
PLEASE READ

Now it was decided in here never to generalize. We now that paper must be write by someone that is just up set. I don't know anyone that acts this way. Everything here is perfect.

rrriiigggghhhtttt
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby captsirl » Fri May 11, 2012 11:23 pm

captsirl wrote:
bobg wrote:http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-2096-Peruvians-least-law-abiding-in-the-region-says-new-survey/

.
PLEASE READ

Now it was decided in here never to generalize. We know that paper must be written by someone that is just upset. I don't know anyone that acts this way. Everything here is perfect.

rrriiigggghhhtttt
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby Kelly » Fri May 11, 2012 11:32 pm

The thing about that survey is that it was asking people what they think about the other people in their country. So the survey doesn't actually measure lawfulness, but rather perceived lawfulness.

It goes along with my opinion of there being deep-seated fear of trusting your neighbor in Peru. It's like a non-stop cycle - I think everyone else is out to cheat me, so I decide I'll cheat them first; meanwhile they assume I'm going to cheat them, so they try to cheat me first. it's so deeply ingrained, this fear/expectation of being cheated -
-it's why people don't wait in line (If I wait in line, someone else will just butt in front - so I'll just butt in front first),
- it explains the traffic,
- it explains customer service (the customer is trying to get something for nothing, so we'll give him nothing and make him work for something),
- it explains showing up late for everything (the other guy is going to be at least half an hour late, so I'll make sure I'm 45 minutes late - make him wait instead of me)

There's also a defeatist attitude - "nothing is ever going to change, so why bother trying..."
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby chi chi » Fri May 11, 2012 11:50 pm

Some people are bothered with Peruvian way of doing things.

Complaining about it won't change it. Peruvians won't change things for you.

If you go to another country then it's best to adapt to new things. Not critise things. I lived and worked in several countries and travelled to more than 100 countries. I am excited to meet new cultures, traditions, food and people. The world is so colourfull.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby captsirl » Sat May 12, 2012 7:30 am

Chi Chi
Did you ever think some of us are here to exploit the fact that left to a Peruvian it will never happen.
My associates were asked to pull the power lines over the Andie's to Brazil. To get that contract, meant bring in all out sides brain's and hire as few locals as possible or the deal was off. Signed Allen G. Go to anything nice store or a movie , Thank Chili. Mineral ore is extracted and removed from the country with the fewest Peruvian hands so says the Peruvian Mine owners I have spoken to. Why, It cant be said here or every one trying to be polite will go off the deep end.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby Jimmy111 » Sat May 12, 2012 8:05 am

About the law abiding report.

There is a big difference between being courtious and being law abiding. Most Peruvians are law abiding but not courtious. They do tend to abide by laws that are Malum in se but it is good that most people here dont abide by the Malum prohibitum laws made to control them.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby rama0929 » Sat May 12, 2012 8:45 am

chi chi wrote:Some people are bothered with Peruvian way of doing things.

Complaining about it won't change it. Peruvians won't change things for you.

If you go to another country then it's best to adapt to new things. Not critise things. I lived and worked in several countries and travelled to more than 100 countries. I am excited to meet new cultures, traditions, food and people. The world is so colourfull.


Aprovechastes alla tambien? Sabemos q tu eres muy vivo :wink:
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby bobg » Sat May 12, 2012 10:06 am

The capt is right in his assessment of the Peruvian mind set, I have friends in the mining business, they are Peruvians themselves all of there mechanics are foreign because the Peruvian way to fix something is to bypass the problem IE if there is a component on a machine that controls, or starts a function , safety related or not there way to fix it is to bypass the bad part . This is part of what ? why do they do this same behavior in almost every part of there life, I think we all have it a little right and a little wrong, but we will never know for sure. Thanks to all who entered in to the discussion and I am truly sorry if I said things that offended anyone, some time I get carried away..............Bobg
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby falconagain » Sat May 12, 2012 3:59 pm

chi chi wrote:Some people are bothered with Peruvian way of doing things.

Complaining about it won't change it. Peruvians won't change things for you.

If you go to another country then it's best to adapt to new things. Not critise things. I lived and worked in several countries and travelled to more than 100 countries. I am excited to meet new cultures, traditions, food and people. The world is so colourfull.


True, modern mining is very automated. Same as when a Peruvian drinks Cristal or Pilsen thinking that
is supporting a national industry that generates employment. The whole plant is automated, there is only
40 supervisors tops just to make sure that the machines keep running.

And in regards to the other problem, true we love to bypass problems until they become unavoidable.
The American way at least in business is to solve the problems immediately in order to increase efficiency.

Examples in delaying to fix a problem:
- the gold exploitation in Madre de Dios, politician insisted nothing bad will happen until the whole
region water supply became poisoned with mercury.
- the delay in building sewage processing plants, we still throw all our waste to the sea (the US
offered several times to help with technology), still today the situation continues to get worse,
eventually I think that maybe Colombia, Ecuador and Chile might militarily intervene and
put Peru in its place.
-the regular tuberculosis and super tuberculosis situation in Peru. Nobody likes to talked about it
because it only happens to the poor. Gaston Acuario tried to start a campaign to solve it but looks
like the people only listen to him when he talks about food.
-the clean up of the Peruvian jungle pollution made by the occidental, many local communities have
protested about but the government and the media do not report on it. Maybe a few people with
three legs or two mouths will get some attention.
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby Kelly » Sat May 12, 2012 4:48 pm

An interesting article that touches on some of the same ideas, about ideas and customs being so firmly entrenched in a society that it makes change difficult.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magaz ... 12-NA&_r=1
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Re: The right to work trumps all other rights

Postby chi chi » Sat May 12, 2012 11:59 pm

bobg wrote:Better to remove the word WORK
Peruvians will never achieve much collectively because each and every one feels they have the right and the rules are for the other person.


Don't remove the word WORK. Those street venders are trying to make an honest living. For most of those people their are no alternatives. (apart from crime)
In Peru, either you have the money and start a business or have the money to afford good education so you can get a good job. If you have none of that then you have to be young and good looking to get a (low paid) job.

Europeans and Americans won't achieve a lot either collectively. But they have unions who achieve things for them.
In Peru, there are no unions that defend worker rights or do somethings about discrimination on the workfloor.

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