What are the penalties?

Answers to your qestions about moving to, and living in, Peru,
woodchuck
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What are the penalties?

Postby woodchuck » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:50 am

It happens every party I attend; people complaining about the Libro de Reclamaciones.
They are happy Peru has such a "Complaint Book"; but at least 50% never get satisfaction?
I my case, the business told me "We don't need a Libro!"

I tracked down the owner & she told me the - same thing! Amazing!!!
I filed a Complaint at Indecopi for - false advertising & shoddy goods.
A rep. for the business never came to the hearing & I won my case & got reimbursed.
I told the examiner that this business should also be fined for these blatant illegal acts; NO REPLY!

My question is - "What are the penalties for not complying with the law regarding the Libro?"
When at Indecopi, no one could or would explain this to me; the penalties must me minor as businesses either don't have the book on site - a requirement, or they have but don't allow you to fill out a complaint - another requirement! When I talk with PPK, I will mention this to him.

Do you have any comments about the Libro process? Thanks. :lol:
PS - Sunat has the right strategy, don't give boletas - don't obey the law; they shut the business down!!!


woodchuck
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby woodchuck » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:15 pm

I can't believe I have had no replies!

People always complain at parties about the laws here in Peru not being enforced.
If you complain - YOU NEED TO FOLLOW UP - to make things better for all expats.
I am tired of trying to do everything by myself; I need some concerned expats to help me.

Thanks. :x
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fanning
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby fanning » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:45 pm

You had the same discussion in March ?! http://www.expatperu.com/expatforums/viewtopic.php?t=28985
I don't exactly know what different answers you expect.

But for the lazy, I copy my previous reply :

If a customer fills out the Libro de Reclamaciones the only requirement for a business is that they give a response within 30 days. ( The business can also directly write the response and give that to the customer ) There is no need to send it to Indecopi, and the response of the business don't necessarily have to be favorable for the customer.
If the customer makes a claim of a crime committed, then the business takes it to a comisaria, and keep a copy with stamp in their archives. There is still no need to report it to Indecopi.
Indecopi can verify with a business if they have the actual Libro de Reclamaciones, the sign telling they have it, and ask for any copies of the complaints. Only in that case Indecopi has the copies of the Libro. And they only verify if the business replied within 30 days.
ironchefchris
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby ironchefchris » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:05 pm

At every single party I've been to in Perú people are too busy having a good time to complain.

Since you're tired of trying to do everything by yourself, have you tried recruiting the fellow complainers at the parties you go to for help? Based on the lack of replies that you can't believe you haven't received here, maybe this forum just doesn't have that many expats who feel the need to complain all that often. Sounds like those parties you go to would seem to have a larger (and instant) pool of concerned expats with complaints who might be willing to officially complain and follow up on THEIR complaints, since, you know, THEY were complaining at all those parties in the first place.

I've never felt the need to follow up on complaints because I haven't had much to complain about here - sorry for partying. Certainly not to the point where I'd feel I needed to constantly complain in Libros and to Indecopi and even pursue it to higher levels of government. Even though I don't feel lucky, maybe I just am. I already feel pretty good about living here and don't feel I need to complain on my behalf or for others to make things better for me or for every other expat; not that I think my complaining would do any good anyway and would really just be a waste of my energies. Never had anything close to a major problem, but if I had a bad enough experience at a particular store I'd just chalk it up to experience, find somewhere else to shop, and move on. I'd rather party at parties instead of complain at them. YMMV.
Andywalters
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby Andywalters » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:07 pm

yeah, I`m with ironchef, vote with your feet, if you have a bad experience just don`t return to the business, sooner or later one of three things will happen, they will change their ways, they will go out of business or a competitor will come along who does the same thing better!

pd if you`re interested next week we`re having a "i hate the way people queue here" party, should be a lot of fun :wink:
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby Polaron » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:31 pm

There's a concept called diminishing returns and I think that's very applicable to this type of situation. Is it really worth all the time Hassle and effort to go about pursuing a business to get what you want when in the end the best you can hope for if you're lucky is to get reimbursed? As expats we really have to face the fact that we live in a country that to some of us appears to be a different planet.

A la tierra que fueres haz lo que vieres/i] is an old refrain but it's still valid ( When in Rome do as the Romans do). Vote with your feet. Accept that you can't win them all Let It Go and move on. You'll end up far less stressed out and able to enjoy life more. I know it's not an ideal situation and that it's not what many people want to hear, but it's true and it's Sound Advice.

Best wishes and I hope life becomes more enjoyable here
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby jumpinjack » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:39 pm

"As expats we really have to face the fact that we live in a country that to some of us appears to be a different planet."
Why?
Slippery Jack
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby Slippery Jack » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:47 pm

Reinhold Niebuhr Quotes. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby jumpinjack » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:02 pm

If that is what mankind accepted, we would still all being living under monarchs and there would be no democracies
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bigdaddy
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby bigdaddy » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:04 pm

Slippery Jack wrote:Reinhold Niebuhr Quotes. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.



In order to carry a positive action we must develop here a positive vision.
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fanning
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby fanning » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:08 pm

To answer your question :
Look at Anexo IV and V of the following link
http://spij.minjus.gob.pe/Graficos/Peru/2014/Enero/23/DS-006-2014-PCM.pdf (Spanish)
woodchuck
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby woodchuck » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:44 am

Thanks, fanning - this is very useful info:

http://spij.minjus.gob.pe/Graficos/Peru ... 14-PCM.pdf

For those that state "When in Rome, do as the Romans", I can't accept this!
To make a country better, concerned citizens/residents need to "voice" their concerns.
I personally have been involved with businesses that neither give the customer any reply on site nor reply thru Indecopi in 30 days; they just don't care! These are medium to large scale businesses!

Of course the customer can ignore this & give up; this is what these businesses want.
But should the next customer have to go thru all this aggravation also?
If the "When in Rome" philosophy is practiced; "Honor killings" would be accepted in Peru.
No one in their right mind would allow this & no one should accept businesses that don't operate within the laws of Peru. Take a little effort/time & make Peru a better place for - everyone.

Best wishes to all. :roll:


'
ironchefchris
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby ironchefchris » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:54 am

woodchuck wrote:If the "When in Rome" philosophy is practiced; "Honor killings" would be accepted in Peru.'

Are honor killings now accepted in Perú? Have they ever been? If not, then how does the 'when in Rome' philosophy even apply? Unless the entirety of Perú itself is now in another country that allows honor killings. "When in Rome..." implies that one has to be in the place where the act that the proverbially Romans are doing is taking place. "When in Rome..." does not imply that because honor killings (or anything else) are taking place elsewhere in the world that Perú would adapt these practices.

This might have meaning and significance if one were living in a country that practiced and accepted honor killings, but I don't see that being the case in Perú, and even if it were, why would someone against honor killings ever voluntarily expatriate to a country that practices honor killings? Just to complain about it?

I'm going to keep voting with my feet and wallet when it comes to deciding on where to shop. As Polaron mentioned upthread, diminishing returns, and I don't see how one, or even a handful, expat who's not even a citizen can make such grand cultural changes that the millions of citizens are unable to or are just unwilling to exert their energies because they know and understand how Perú works (or doesn't work, as the case may be) and would rather spend their time at parties having fun than complaining. Good luck in your efforts though. It's a noble cause. Any progress to report on your wanting to meet with PPK? Plans, proposals, presentations ready to present, even an actual appointment date?
woodchuck
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby woodchuck » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:09 am

I have knowledge of a situation that might be considered an "honor killing" that occurred in Peru.
I was sworn to secrecy & also would fear for my life if I divulged any info.
Iron, too often you ASSUME you know "everything about everything" that happens in Peru.
While you are certainly intelligent & well-informed; Peru has a population of 30 million & there are places that few "outsiders" have ever ventured. There are customs that are followed that are primitive/secret.
Best wishes. :roll:
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Re: What are the penalties?

Postby ironchefchris » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:55 pm

A situation that "might" be considered an "honor killing" (your use of quotation marks suggests and reinforces that "might"), without any proof offered whatsoever, sounds like the very definition of - hearsay. It's like saying I've gotten tons of pm's from anonymous people who support my position - they just don't want to support me publicly - but you should consider their opinions as much as you would consider someone's opinion who is willing to go on the record with a public declaration.

I certainly don't believe I know "everything about everything" that happens in Perú, or elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people in Perú, or even the US, who participate in honor killings and other foul deeds for whatever reasons, but I've yet to read anything suggesting that it's widespread or have ever come across a single verified incident. Not to say it's not possible or doesn't happen, but I really doubt anything that is primitive/secret is on a scale anywhere near what happens out in the open in other parts of the world. Certainly not to any degree where "when in Rome...." would have any validity - which is what the whole thing was originally referencing.

I certainly wouldn't violate a vow of secrecy if I feared divulging any info could result in my death. Especially if I was an unfortunate first hand witness to something like an honor killing and it wasn't just a case of someone divulging info to me about what they witnessed. Or what a third or fourth person down the line told them they witnessed and passed along to you, which, again, would by definition be - hearsay. Why anyone would tell me such a thing if it would be dangerous for me to know and that would also presumably put their lives in danger as well for sharing - I don't know? I have no details to go on or any reason to doubt you so I'll just take you at your word. Hopefully whoever swore you to secrecy heard it from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone instead of being more closely involved to the situation.

Stay safe.

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