Humala swears he'll behave

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Alan
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Humala swears he'll behave

Postby Alan » Fri May 20, 2011 1:38 pm

Good story in the Peruvian times on Humala´s oath (on a gilded bible!) to not perpetuate his stay in power, if elected.

If you have the time, check out the English language podcast. Rick Vecchio interviews Alvaro Vargas Llosa.

http://www.peruviantimes.com/19/preside ... acy/12286/


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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby adrian Thorne » Fri May 20, 2011 2:04 pm

This man is dangerous for the people of Peru. They know what will happen if he is elected so they have no other choice but to vote for Keiko.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby sbaustin » Fri May 20, 2011 3:50 pm

This just shows how desperate he is becoming.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby JoshuS » Fri May 20, 2011 4:59 pm

euroman wrote:
adrian Thorne wrote:This man is dangerous for the people of Peru. They know what will happen if he is elected so they have no other choice but to vote for Keiko.


People talk bad about Humala. But why is he the most popular candidate? And he's probably going to win.


There's a lot of lies, spin and propaganda propagated against Humala, the reasons are obvious. Here in the US, most peruvians I have spoken to through my wife connections are voting for Humala, they're tired of the same old story. My wife herself is voting for Humala. I hope he wins big time.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby Remigius » Fri May 20, 2011 5:50 pm

JoshuS wrote:There's a lot of lies, spin and propaganda propagated against Humala, the reasons are obvious. Here in the US, most peruvians I have spoken to through my wife connections are voting for Humala, they're tired of the same old story. My wife herself is voting for Humala. I hope he wins big time.


How can things be so obvious if you're not even in Peru?
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby JoshuS » Fri May 20, 2011 6:06 pm

Remigius wrote:
JoshuS wrote:There's a lot of lies, spin and propaganda propagated against Humala, the reasons are obvious. Here in the US, most peruvians I have spoken to through my wife connections are voting for Humala, they're tired of the same old story. My wife herself is voting for Humala. I hope he wins big time.


How can things be so obvious if you're not even in Peru?



No need to. Humala represents another way (IF he's to govern for the people, that would remain to be seen) which would challenge the peruvian elites and its US backing.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby sbaustin » Fri May 20, 2011 6:39 pm

JoshuS wrote:
Remigius wrote:
JoshuS wrote:There's a lot of lies, spin and propaganda propagated against Humala, the reasons are obvious. Here in the US, most peruvians I have spoken to through my wife connections are voting for Humala, they're tired of the same old story. My wife herself is voting for Humala. I hope he wins big time.


How can things be so obvious if you're not even in Peru?



No need to. Humala represents another way (IF he's to govern for the people, that would remain to be seen) which would challenge the peruvian elites and its US backing.


Of course you don't need to be in Peru. You can just chat with the few Peruvians you know in the USA to get a really good idea about what's going on back in Peru. It makes total sense!
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby Remigius » Fri May 20, 2011 7:54 pm

JoshuS wrote:No need to. Humala represents another way (IF he's to govern for the people, that would remain to be seen) which would challenge the peruvian elites and its US backing.


So let me get this straight: you chat with some Peruvians in the US who escaped Peru in order to take full advantage of the American system, but who want to vote for a candidate that does not tolerate such system in Peru. I assume them all to return to Peru as soon as Humala gets chosen, because they must be very unhappy with Uncle Sam.

Back in the real world, Peru's elite consist out of less than 4% of the population. Are you blaming them for the problems in this country? About the propaganda and lies: Humala has not been able to refute any of the allegations made towards him or remained in silence. I advise Peruvians living abroad to get up to date with the current situation here, because ignorances seems to reign.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby GianO » Sat May 21, 2011 2:01 pm

The second Keiko enters office (if she wins) is to set free her dad who pretty much did what he wanted in office with his right hand, Montesinos (sp). If Fuijmori did the kind of things he did in office in the US or Europe he would have been imprisoned a long, long time ago. He orchestrated his own coup d'etat in the 90's! Is that the kind of guy you let run a country for almost a decade or more? I don't know much about Keiko, but if she's anything like her father and surrounds her self with scum like Montesinos, the country is going to go through some dark days, IMO.

I don't believe the hype about Humala and behing Chavez and Cuba's best friend. Just because he's got some leftist beliefs, doesn't automatically lump him in with other leftist people, in all honestly, it's the same story for anyone who isn't centered or right wing, no matter how big or small their left leaning is. They always get thrown the Chavez and Cuba connection or that he's a "inflitrado de la CIA." Maybe he does have some "radical" ideas, but he did make it into the second round of voting, so there is a part of the population that think he's got something right going on.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to who's going to be the lesser of two evils. And whoever wins, I hope they do the country more good than harm cause they are going to be in there for five years.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby PaddyODoors » Sun May 22, 2011 8:18 pm

Back in the real world, Peru's elite consist out of less than 4% of the population. Are you blaming them for the problems in this country?


For the most part yes. Peru is an example of Capitalism unleashed. When you accumulate and accumulate at the expense of a population, don't provide decent healthcare, opportunity, pension, disability provision, distort the media you control and own to keeping people uninformed and dumbed down, don't educate, share or invest in your population then the result is Humala.

I believe in a a capitalist system, how ever it has to be controlled and checked, with some forced wealth redistribution, such as free health care and financial provision for those who cannot obtain or are not physically able to work.

The elite have been so selfish and "me me me", that they put forward three candidates and split their own vote. That says it all.

There has been change in the past 10 years....but its too little too late. With globalization and easy access to media which allow people to see share, see and discuss their own situations there was always going to be a backlash. Look at the middle east.

To be honest if Humala loses, I think we will be on the brink of the abyss. I dont see Provencias where he won with almost 60 and 70 percent of the vote in some areas accepting Fujimori. We may well see the daughter of Alberto having to employ similar tactics to her father in Provencias once again.

Fingers crossed for a peaceful, stable outcome.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby gww1966 » Sun May 22, 2011 10:44 pm

Long live Keiko.
Last edited by gww1966 on Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby Remigius » Mon May 23, 2011 7:17 am

PaddyODoors wrote:
Back in the real world, Peru's elite consist out of less than 4% of the population. Are you blaming them for the problems in this country?


When you accumulate and accumulate at the expense of a population, don't provide decent healthcare, opportunity, pension, disability provision, distort the media you control and own to keeping people uninformed and dumbed down, don't educate, share or invest in your population then the result is Humala.


So 4% of the population is holding this back? That would be quite something. In the times of Velasco, who had the same ideas as Humala and Chavez, these problems still were present. The Peruvian congress consists out of people from all social classes by all social classes, but if they don't show up and are generally corrupt, then nothing good will happen. If informality reigns in the lower social classes, then how can expect good social health care if no-one pays for it? It's a mentality issue that you cannot simply blame on the rich.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby euroman » Mon May 23, 2011 11:05 pm

Remigius wrote: If informality reigns in the lower social classes, then how can expect good social health care if no-one pays for it? It's a mentality issue that you cannot simply blame on the rich.



I guess what's needed is good unions. To stop exploitation. It's one of the biggest problems in Peru.
Many people are working in the provinces for wages between 150 and 500 soles a month although the official minimum wage is 600 a month.

If you mention to those people that they are underpaid then they said; ''yeah, but that's what the pay is up here and there's nothing I can do and if I don't want to work 7 days a week, 10 hours a day for 300 a month then someone else will be too happy to do my job''.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby PaddyODoors » Sun May 29, 2011 2:03 pm

So 4% of the population is holding this back? That would be quite something. In the times of Velasco, who had the same ideas as Humala and Chavez, these problems still were present. The Peruvian congress consists out of people from all social classes by all social classes, but if they don't show up and are generally corrupt, then nothing good will happen. If informality reigns in the lower social classes, then how can expect good social health care if no-one pays for it? It's a mentality issue that you cannot simply blame on the rich.



Congressmen effect very little in Peru, they may come in with ideals but once a few dollar bills are waved in their faces, ideals quickly dissipate. Peru's wealth buys the congressmen, as wealth does in most countries. However, Peru's congress is particularly affected. Don't confuse congressmen with the 4% who hold the wealth.

I would standby by an approximation of 4% and 80% of the wealth, its the same worldwide, the difference is more developed and less corrupt countries know that when the other 96% of the population have access to the afore mentioned benefits such as health care, work reasonable wage, they will accept things for the most part, knowing that opportunity for advancement exists ergo stability and continued wealth accumulation.

Think of the country as a business. There are Owners (the afore mentioend 4%), the Managers (The politicians and high end public servants), selected and paid for by campaign contributions by the Owners, then the Workers (the general public). The Owners of any successful business know that if you treat the Workers badly enough for long enough, they will either strike, or revolt stage a sit in and take over the Management.

Now Humala is offering to replace the current set of managers, with a set who will bring in to play a new set of rules for the owners. The key for Humala is, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, the macro economy is excellent, that has to be the driving force for the changes he wants to make, similar to Brasil's transformation.

I am watching with interest, If I had a DNI and had to vote, I have no idea how I would go, my heart would say Humala, as the inequality is intolerable, however, if I am honest, my head would me more selfish say Keiko, because I would be thinking of potential impacts on my own business.

Thankfully I dont have to make that choice.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby renodante » Tue May 31, 2011 8:56 pm

It's a mentality issue that you cannot simply blame on the rich.


ah, but it's always so much easier to blame it on the rich. then what happens? the same thing that happens every time some populist leftist candidate gets elected somewhere in latin america. wealth is redistributed, businesses etc are nationalized, the poor are happy for a year or so because they've been thrown a bone, and then before long the infrastructure and economy of the country come crumbling down because those with the knowledge and capital to maintain such things have been silenced or expelled. but it's just so tempting to go for the quick fix of electing someone to throw you that bone, rather than make the difficult changes.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby craig » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:33 pm

Alan wrote:Good story in the Peruvian times on Humala´s oath (on a gilded bible!) to not perpetuate his stay in power, if elected.

If you have the time, check out the English language podcast. Rick Vecchio interviews Alvaro Vargas Llosa.

http://www.peruviantimes.com/19/preside ... acy/12286/


I noted that he did not swear he would not change the constitution. He swore he would not change the constitution to permit reelection. That leaves a lot of wiggle room for changing everything else. It even leaves open the possibility of eliminating elections all together and making president an office for life.

You might say that that would be too cute to be possible. But that is exactly the sort of sophism that Morales has employed with the Bolivian constitution.

I am really dissapointed with Alvaro Vargas Llosa. How can he be so gullible? Or perhaps he is just being a disingenuous politician trying to fool other people into being so gullible.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby naturegirl » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:52 pm

Toledo also supports him. I have no doubt that he'll be good, for a while, then things will go nuts.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby craig » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:24 am

naturegirl wrote:Toledo also supports him. I have no doubt that he'll be good, for a while, then things will go nuts.

:) He hasn't even officially won yet. But he figures he has it in the bag. So in the victory speech I just listend too he is already reverting back to the real Humala. So much for all those promises to MVLL. He certainly hoodwinked Mario and Alvaro. I wonder if they will ever admit they were had or will they forever continue to support Humala simply because they can't admit they were wrong out of false pride.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby rama0929 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:45 am

Remigius wrote:
JoshuS wrote:No need to. Humala represents another way (IF he's to govern for the people, that would remain to be seen) which would challenge the peruvian elites and its US backing.


So let me get this straight: you chat with some Peruvians in the US who escaped Peru in order to take full advantage of the American system, but who want to vote for a candidate that does not tolerate such system in Peru. I assume them all to return to Peru as soon as Humala gets chosen, because they must be very unhappy with Uncle Sam.


Are they still here? :mrgreen:
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby rama0929 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:49 am

PaddyODoors wrote:Think of the country as a business. There are Owners (the afore mentioend 4%), the Managers (The politicians and high end public servants), selected and paid for by campaign contributions by the Owners, then the Workers (the general public). The Owners of any successful business know that if you treat the Workers badly enough for long enough, they will either strike, or revolt stage a sit in and take over the Management.


In a nutshell, this is the reason the US has been so successful in a relatively short period of time.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby Polaron » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:00 pm

rama0929 wrote:
PaddyODoors wrote:Think of the country as a business. There are Owners (the afore mentioend 4%), the Managers (The politicians and high end public servants), selected and paid for by campaign contributions by the Owners, then the Workers (the general public). The Owners of any successful business know that if you treat the Workers badly enough for long enough, they will either strike, or revolt stage a sit in and take over the Management.


In a nutshell, this is the reason the US has been so successful in a relatively short period of time.


Man, I'll take two of whatever you guys are drinking. If only it were that simple. Big corporations have learned how to manipulate people into believing that they're being done a favor. It's nothing more than a capitalistic equivalent of Soviet strategy, so well employed by the Republican Party: tell a lie publicly with sufficient frequency, and eventually most people will believe it.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby rama0929 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:32 pm

Polaron wrote:Man, I'll take two of whatever you guys are drinking. If only it were that simple. Big corporations have learned how to manipulate people into believing that they're being done a favor. It's nothing more than a capitalistic equivalent of Soviet strategy, so well employed by the Republican Party: tell a lie publicly with sufficient frequency, and eventually most people will believe it.


Like I said in the other thread, you can get down, or you can lay down. You can deal with big gov't, or big business. Given that big gov't has been shown time and time again to be ineffective (I'm sure you've dealt with it in Peru), I'd be willing to take my chances with big business.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby Polaron » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:35 am

rama0929 wrote:
Polaron wrote:Man, I'll take two of whatever you guys are drinking. If only it were that simple. Big corporations have learned how to manipulate people into believing that they're being done a favor. It's nothing more than a capitalistic equivalent of Soviet strategy, so well employed by the Republican Party: tell a lie publicly with sufficient frequency, and eventually most people will believe it.


Like I said in the other thread, you can get down, or you can lay down. You can deal with big gov't, or big business. Given that big gov't has been shown time and time again to be ineffective (I'm sure you've dealt with it in Peru), I'd be willing to take my chances with big business.


Another sophistic argument, using Reaganesque sound bites to vilify any philosophy that does not include slavish loyalty to capitalism. The difference between government and big business involves one of bureaucratic mentality vs. unremitting greed. Mentality can be corrected, but greed is both insidious and persistent.

There are problems inherent in both systems, but I would rather deal with occasional inefficiency than to be ripped off by unapologetic sharks dressed in business suits. Besides, the inefficiency can be corrected.

With regards to having "dealt with (inefficiency) in Peru," the fact is, I've dealt with it in the 8 countries where I've lived during the course of my lifetime, and our adopted home country is no different from the others. Presently I've been doing battle with my bank since March in an attempt to get a non-financial issue resolved, and neither management nor non-management employees seem to have a clue. Every single time I get a different answer. My bank is a huge, U.S.-based multinational, so where's all that "efficiency"?

While we're on the subject of government "inefficiency," especially in Peru, ask Americorps about his multiple experiences with privately-owned telephone companies and the number of times he has been forced to enlist the help of Osiptel in the face of consistent corporate stonewalling and intransigence. If it weren't for the "inefficient" government agency Osiptel, telephone service would be far less reliable and way more expensive than it is today.

If that is "big government inefficiency," then I'll take all that I can get.
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby rama0929 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:33 am

Polaron wrote:
Another sophistic argument, using Reaganesque sound bites to vilify any philosophy that does not include slavish loyalty to capitalism. The difference between government and big business involves one of bureaucratic mentality vs. unremitting greed. Mentality can be corrected, but greed is both insidious and persistent.


Mentality can be corrected, but often isn't. That's why people put up with the same things over and over and over again. Same with gov't inefficiency.

Having said that, there is no company that has a 100% customer satisfaction rate; it's possible that the two of you fall into the category of "exception, not the norm".
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Re: Humala swears he'll behave

Postby Polaron » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:10 pm

rama0929 wrote:
Polaron wrote:
Another sophistic argument, using Reaganesque sound bites to vilify any philosophy that does not include slavish loyalty to capitalism. The difference between government and big business involves one of bureaucratic mentality vs. unremitting greed. Mentality can be corrected, but greed is both insidious and persistent.


Mentality can be corrected, but often isn't. That's why people put up with the same things over and over and over again. Same with gov't inefficiency.

Having said that, there is no company that has a 100% customer satisfaction rate; it's possible that the two of you fall into the category of "exception, not the norm".


Nice try, my friend.
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