Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

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Alan
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Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby Alan » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:53 pm

I admit to not knowing much about the history behind this conflict. Any thoughts on how this will pan out? My first suspicion when I see flag waving is that governments, both Argentine and British, want to divert the attention of their populace from the economic problems brewing their respective countries.


http://www.peruviantimes.com/11/humala- ... nds/15004/

Humala Sends Letter To Argentina’s Fernandez In Support Of Falklands

President Ollanta Humala sent a letter to his Argentine counterpart, President Cristina Fernandez, to provide support for her country’s efforts to regain control of the Falkland Islands, newspaper El Comercio reported.
“I have the honor to write to your excellency to express the solidarity and support of the people and government of Peru for Argentina’s legitimate rights of sovereignty over the Islas Malvinas,” Humala wrote in the letter, according to El Comercio.

Britain, which explored and established settlements on the islands from the mid-17th century —as did the French and the Dutch— regained and controlled sovereignty over the islands since the mid-19th century, although Argentina has always considered them —the Islas Malvinas, from the French malouins— part of its territory.

In 1982, Argentina invaded the South Atlantic islands, which provoked a 74-day war with the UK that resulted in Britain regaining control of the islands. Casualties included 250 British soldiers and 650 Argentine soldiers dead, and the sinking of the HMS Sheffield and the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano. Both nations restored relations in 1989 but the agreement left the sovereignty dispute aside.

In recent weeks, Argentina’s Foreign Affairs minister, Hector Timerman, filed a complaint with the United Nations that the UK is militarizing the South Atlantic, with its newest destroyer, the HMS Dauntless, and nuclear submarines. Britain has denied such operations and claims that its ships are in international waters.
Former high-level officials in Peru’s government have said it would be unlikely that Peru would back Argentina militarily if there was renewed conflict, and President Humala’s letter would confirm this position. In mid-January, the Mercosur trade block —including Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay— backed Argentina’s claims by blocking entry of ships flying the Falklands flag.

“My government,” continued Humala in his letter, “backs Argentina’s aspirations to reach a peaceful understanding with the United Kingdom, through dialogue and negotiation.”


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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby renodante » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:41 pm

Former high-level officials in Peru’s government have said it would be unlikely that Peru would back Argentina militarily


wise decision.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby falconagain » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:53 pm

Actually the situation now is pretty good for Argentina to try again.
Both countries have budget problems but if Argentina wins they might
able to solve their economic problems with the resources of the island.
Actually the help to Argentina was given after the President of that
time released several friendly statements like Humala. It is possible
that Humala will provide help as the military still in Peru has to follow
the orders of its President.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby MarcoPE » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:33 am

Shouldn't the residents of the Falklands decide?
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby VicManu » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:53 am

Almost all the residents are british living very far away of their country. It was part of the colonial era, when England was all over the place and the king/queen was ruling very far away from his/her territory.
The argetinean people who lived in Las Malvinas until 1833, were expelled by the british and they applied a policy of implantation of british settlers in the Malvinas island.
The islands were Argentineans and are located close to their territory. Like the rock of gibraltar is located in the spanish territory but british expelled spaniards after they conquered during a war.
That was the past of a colonial era. Almost all the english colonies included India, Cook islands or Southafrica got their independence. Why not Malvinas islands ?.
Peru supported Argentina in 1982 sending aircrafts and other military material .There are rumors about peruvian air force pilots hit some of the english vessels.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:03 am

VicManu wrote:Almost all the residents are british living very far away of their country. It was part of the colonial era, when England was all over the place and the king/queen was ruling very far away from his/her territory.
The argetinean people who lived in Las Malvinas until 1833, were expelled by the british and they applied a policy of implantation of british settlers in the Malvinas island.
The islands were Argentineans and are located close to their territory. Like the rock of gibraltar is located in the spanish territory but british expelled spaniards after they conquered during a war.
That was the past of a colonial era. Almost all the english colonies included India, Cook islands or Southafrica got their independence. Why not Malvinas islands ?.
Peru supported Argentina in 1982 sending aircrafts and other military material .There are rumors about peruvian air force pilots hit some of the english vessels.


I am very interested in your comment about Argentian occuption. The only reference I can find is as follows.:

Quoted from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_I ... ry_to_1982:

In November 1832, Argentina sent Commander Mestivier as an interim commander to found a penal settlement, but he was killed in a mutiny after 4 days.[27] The following January, British forces returned and requested the Argentine garrison leave. Don Pinedo, captain of the ARA Sarandi and senior officer present, protested but ultimately complied.

It would be very interesting to hear of your source.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby JGrizzle » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:23 am

Also an interesting bit on the current escalations,

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 58942.html
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby renodante » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:52 am

falconagain wrote:Actually the situation now is pretty good for Argentina to try again.
Both countries have budget problems but if Argentina wins they might
able to solve their economic problems with the resources of the island.
Actually the help to Argentina was given after the President of that
time released several friendly statements like Humala. It is possible
that Humala will provide help as the military still in Peru has to follow
the orders of its President.


Peru has Soviet Era military equipment and poorly trained troops. It would make the U.S running through the Iraqi army in a few days look like a challenge in comparison.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby VicManu » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:00 am

A briton answered your question. Malvinas belong to Argentina.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... .falklands
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby falconagain » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:52 pm

renodante wrote:
falconagain wrote:Actually the situation now is pretty good for Argentina to try again.
Both countries have budget problems but if Argentina wins they might
able to solve their economic problems with the resources of the island.
Actually the help to Argentina was given after the President of that
time released several friendly statements like Humala. It is possible
that Humala will provide help as the military still in Peru has to follow
the orders of its President.


Peru has Soviet Era military equipment and poorly trained troops. It would make the U.S running through the Iraqi army in a few days look like a challenge in comparison.



Yes I know that, but you never know these days. Now I think that Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela
will not be very friendly towards anyone who attacks Argentina. If only the other 3 countries provide
each half of the resources that Peru committed during 1982, then the Britons are screwed, not because
their military is not as strong but the timing issue. If the war takes longer than a year it would not be
even worth it to win as the interest charged to finance that kind of operation would cripple the country.
I am not current in my British history but I guess that after winning the war in 1982, the British had to
implement a lot of austerity measures to recover.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby VicManu » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:08 pm

Nobody want to start a military confrontation. But if it happens not only Peru almost all southamerican countries can support Argentina. You´re right our weapons are not so modern , But we can fight.

Our main interest right now is to keep developing our country . That´s why no governement lately bought weapons, we prefer to invest in infraestructure it´s better than acquiring weapons of 5th generation, expensive to maintain. We need to extend the water supplies and sewage,to improve education our leaders have to make a lot of changes like transportation and enviromental changes.

Do you Know that last Year we had commercial superavit ? our public and private external debt represent 20 % of our G.D.P. and the Reserves 28 % of our G.D.P. during the next 5 years we have to pay only 1thousand 500 millions ( 1billion 500 thousand dolars )of dollars of external debt, while Brazil has to pay what northamericans call 1 trillion 300 thousand of dollars. and we have ( 53 billion dollars of reserves ).

We aren´t interested to mess up our financial situation. But if Argentina need help We´ll help them, like other countries included Brazil. And it will be too expensive for U.K. this time.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:54 pm

VicManu wrote:A briton answered your question. Malvinas belong to Argentina.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... .falklands


Sorry VicManu you example is pure unsupported supposition. I would love to see your facts.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:00 pm

VicManu wrote:Nobody want to start a military confrontation. But if it happens not only Peru almost all southamerican countries can support Argentina. You´re right our weapons are not so modern , But we can fight.

Our main interest right now is to keep developing our country . That´s why no governement lately bought weapons, we prefer to invest in infraestructure it´s better than acquiring weapons of 5th generation, expensive to maintain. We need to extend the water supplies and sewage,to improve education our leaders have to make a lot of changes like transportation and enviromental changes.

Do you Know that last Year we had commercial superavit ? our public and private external debt represent 20 % of our G.D.P. and the Reserves 28 % of our G.D.P. during the next 5 years we have to pay only 1thousand 500 millions ( 1billion 500 thousand dolars )of dollars of external debt, while Brazil has to pay what northamericans call 1 trillion 300 thousand of dollars. and we have ( 53 billion dollars of reserves ).

We aren´t interested to mess up our financial situation. But if Argentina need help We´ll help them, like other countries included Brazil. And it will be too expensive for U.K. this time.


I believe Peru has done a wonderful job and can of course do a lot better when they are focused. Not a lot to do with this thread though and I can assure you not a lot when A country, especially Britain, protects their own people, at what ever cost.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby renodante » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:08 pm

Our main interest right now is to keep developing our country


which is why i hope everyone stays out of military confrontations with the U.K.

If the war takes longer than a year


*putting on my armchair General's hat* if they took the gloves off it would take about 2 weeks tops.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:21 pm

falconagain wrote: Yes I know that, but you never know these days. Now I think that Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela
will not be very friendly towards anyone who attacks Argentina. If only the other 3 countries provide
each half of the resources that Peru committed during 1982, then the Britons are screwed, not because
their military is not as strong but the timing issue. If the war takes longer than a year it would not be
even worth it to win as the interest charged to finance that kind of operation would cripple the country.
I am not current in my British history but I guess that after winning the war in 1982, the British had to
implement a lot of austerity measures to recover.


This is very interesting but a little lacking in historical knowledge. Great Britain does not intend deploying it´s atomic fleet , sitting somewhere in international waters, against any underarmed South American country. It is only intent on protecting four generations of British subjects living on The Faulklands from being invaded by another country and my God it will do it at what ever cost.

For your information 1982 was sactioned by all member states of the UN except Spain. In addition Peru tried to stop the conflict and presented a peace package to Argentina, but Argentina ignore them.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:05 pm

Hello Adrian, it is nice to tell hello again. I still remember the interesting and funny conversation we had about using gas vs electricty at home. I still think that gas is a better option :)

Do you have any interesting historic information that back up the british position about the soberignity of your country in FalkLand ? I would like to read something really genuine with data inside it...
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:40 pm

windsportinperu wrote:Hello Adrian, it is nice to tell hello again. I still remember the interesting and funny conversation we had about using gas vs electricty at home. I still think that gas is a better option :)

Do you have any interesting historic information that back up the british position about the soberignity of your country in FalkLand ? I would like to read something really genuine with data inside it...



Hi Windsportinperu you sound well and obviously firing on all four cylinders. I totally agree with you. We are on natural gas at home and all our water and cooking has been powered by gas since we moved in to the house five years ago.

I have a piece of paper that says I own my home, but am quite sure it was robbed from some unsuspecting native, who had lived and worked on the land. I only hope his family do not try and claim it back from me. I have not been here as long as the families on the Faulklands.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby FHCZ » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:28 pm

I doubt very much that Peru will provide any military help to Argentina in case of conflict since Argentina sold secretly arms to Ecuador during the Peruvian-Ecuadorian conflict in the 90's

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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby rubble » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:39 pm

I think I can stick my neck out here and say that the UK has no intention of invading Argentina. Protecting its dependents, should they be attacked, is another thing. How will some of the posters on here react - 'we can fight' - should Argentina be the aggressor? Remember, this is the same country that was only a few hours away from invading Chile over the Beagle Island in 1978.

Any Latino I have spoken to, here in Peru or in Europe, seems to be a tad confused over the Islanders themselves. They are suprised when that discover that, they, the locals, don't speak Spanish. They prefer fish and chips to ceviche, ketchup to ají and Coronation Street to ANY telenovella. They aren't living under duress or under a British jackboot. In fact, I reckon if you
were to ask most of them their nationality, they'd say Falklander or Falkland Islander, just as someone from Easter Island might say he was Pascunese and not Chilian. Or the Easter Bunny.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby stranger » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:08 am

rubble wrote:Any Latino I have spoken to, here in Peru or in Europe, seems to be a tad confused over the Islanders themselves. They are suprised when that discover that, they, the locals, don't speak Spanish. They prefer fish and chips to ceviche, ketchup to ají and Coronation Street to ANY telenovella. They aren't living under duress or under a British jackboot. In fact, I reckon if you
were to ask most of them their nationality, they'd say Falklander or Falkland Islander, just as someone from Easter Island might say he was Pascunese and not Chilian. Or the Easter Bunny.


An interesting point, and self-determination seems to be a big issue surrounding the islands. Obviously the question is, should a relatively new population be given the rights to self-determination? I'd say yes, when considering the issues in this particular case.

"There is nothing Argentinian about the islands. The people eat fish and chips, they have dinner at 6pm, they're British. The only thing that is remotely Argentinian is maybe the landscape that resembles barren Patagonia and the thousands of still active landmines that the Argentinian forces left behind." http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/28/falkland-islands-belong-argentina?INTCMP=SRCH

One article I read about this a while ago suggested that, as this is being beat up for political purposes, it really has no relevance to most people in Argentina or the UK, and that the people of the islands are almost forgotten along the way.

But luckily Sean Penn has now involved himself, so we can all rest assured that the problem will resolve itself, with new colonialist thoughts taking place over old colonialist thoughts. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/feb/14/sean-penn-argentina-falkland-islands

(The links added are both from the UK, so admittedly are biased).
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby stuart » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:02 am

I understand Sean Penn has offered to buy a Beverly Hills mansion for each island family so that the Falklands could be returned to the Spanish, or the French, no... the Dutch. Though if none of them want it, perhaps Argentina or Chile could start their first tentative colonies there.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby Alan » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:05 pm

Interesting opinion column here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... laska.html

Which, among other things, argues that the Argentine claim to the Falkland / Malvinas is as strong as a hypothetical claim of Canada over Alaska.

Also,


"As for the notion that Argentine inhabitants of the islands were evicted at some point in the distant past by European settlers: this is nonsense. When the English first landed on the islands and laid claim to them in 1690 they were uninhabited. Argentina, itself now populated by many millions of people of European descent, was not even a country at the time."



Given the nature of this debate, I hope some of you can also reference some Spanish-language source which might provide us with a different view on things.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby JGrizzle » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:21 pm

I think you'll be hard pushed to find a source that isn't British or Argentinian and therefore biased, let's be honest, no one else really cares that much, even the UN when the issue was raised by Argentina practically said sort it out amongst yourselves (obviously worded a lot differently)

That said, ultimately it's up to the islanders, and from what I've read they're happy as is.(granted i read it on BBC website)
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby falconagain » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:34 pm

The war is pretty simple. The residents determination is that they do not want to be part
of Argentina. Argentinians want to invade because of the potential amount of resources
that they could get from those islands. Plus because both the US and UK have economic
problems now, the Argentinians would like to know how much strength can be committed
towards an intervention.

It is wrong to invade, but they are just testing the waters to see if they can get away with
it.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby chi chi » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:49 pm

I was in Argentina today for a daytrip and bought a newspaper and read that Argentina and the UK are going to talk again about the Islands.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby tomsax » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:44 pm

The posturing is all political isn´t it? Argentina raises the stakes by talking up their claims. The UK says some boats to give a message that sovereignty is not negotiable, Argentina claims that this is militarisation just to react to that. Only people who have no knowledge of Argentina (okay so most of the UK population) thinks that Argentina would want to send an invasion force again, Only people completely misinformed and deluded (okay so that may be a lot of Argentinians) think that the UK would consider attacking Argentina.

I hate the way my government plays with politcal popularism regarding the Falklands. But, when it comes down to the crucial question, I think the wishes of the islanders should be respected. That has to be how these things are decided in this day and age.

It´s quite possible that the Scots will become independant soon. The UK is not a colonial nation any more. If we can give the Scots the right to cede that we would obvioulsy give the same right to Falklanders, but they have made it clear they don´t want to be independant or part of Argentina.
Tom
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby SilverbackPeru » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:33 pm

Its really sad i think what is happening between Britain and Argentina at the minute and obviously the last thing that anyone wants is for War to break out again over the islands and of course all the oil thats been discovered has put the stakes up a lot. You also get the armchair generals and iggnorant idiots with extreme patriotism who slang off the other country with little or no knowledge about the subject. Im also a little pee´ed off to hear that people think Britain would actually invade any South American country let alone Argentina. When all we done last time was defend the islands.

The history of the islands is a complicated one but if only Argentina hadn´t have invaded in 1982 the islands would have been Argentina´s a long time ago as there was long going negotiations between the 2 countrys. The British government was actually wanting rid of them despite protests from the islanders, the only sticking point at the time was the islanders safety due to disappearance of many people who opposed the Argentine government during the military rule. The lack of interest from Britain in keeping the islands was a key sign and interpreted by Argentina that they could invade with no resistance. People have to remember tho that in 1982 it was Argentina that invaded and thats why this time round with all the shouting thats going on Britain has sent Ships to guard the islands. I really don´t think war is going to happen and i really hope that it doesn´t. The UK has offered half of all wealth found on the islands to Argentina but the sticking point does seem solely on the fact of full nationality of the islands.

also heres a link from falklands.info for anyone wanting to know the full history of the islands, there is some parts that could be more detailed that i know a little more about from another falklands site but can´t find right now. Good luck to anyone trying to read thru this tho lol

http://www.falklands.info/history/timeline.html
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby El Tunche » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:17 pm

ARgentina wants to send the islanders back to UK the same way UK send to the south american continent the argentinians living in the islands when they took them by force
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby falconagain » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:04 am

I think that the islands where empty when the colonists arrive.
Still I do not think that the Argentinians care for the human side
of the story. It is a matter of greed.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby renodante » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:34 am

El Tunche wrote:ARgentina wants to send the islanders back to UK the same way UK send to the south american continent the argentinians living in the islands when they took them by force


They were uninhabited and no one was displaced. But even if they were, land belongs to the victors. That's how it has always worked and you'd be hard pressed to find any land on the planet that wasn't acquired at one point or another that way. Someone wants "their land" back, they need to take it back or whine about it forever.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby El Tunche » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:02 am

You need to read about the 'Gaucho' Rivero, that fought against the british invasion on the islands.


Anyway, about the subject, a new war in the islands seems very unlikely .
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby SilverbackPeru » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:37 am

I´m noticing a lot of bad history thats going on in this forum. I supplied a full time line of the falklands in the last post to help people understand the history. It´s only a time line tho so doesnt go too deeply into the full history.

The British and Spanish both had settlements on the falkland islands for a very long time without knowing that the other was also there. The British were the first to land on and claim the islands (uninhabited) in 1690, and later settled there, later the french and spanish had settlements there as well but seeing as none of them actually fully circumnavigated the islands they did not realise there was other settlements from other countrys for quiet a long time. The spanish kicked the french out but compensated them. The british left during the American war of independence due to financial difficulties in 1774 but still laid claim to the islands by leaving a plaque. Spain also leaves the islands in 1806 and also leaves a plaque claiming the islands for Spain. Revolution in Buenos Aires in 1810 results in United Provinces Of River Plate being formed later to become Argentina ( now im not Einstein but theres 120 years right there between Britains first claim to the islands and Argentina even being a country there).

Right heres where it gets interesting(out of all the arguements etc about the ownership of the islands this is a little know fact) ,in 1828 Frenchman Louis Vernet applies for a grant to colonise the islands from Argentina. Argentina wanting to colonise the islands give him a grant. He figures the islands have the same landscape as Argentina and so it will be good for raising cattle. But he also knows about the claim of sovereignty to the islands by the British, So without telling the Argentineans he also gets a grant from the British who are wanting to recolonise the islands and he also fails to tell the British he has a grant from Argentina to colonise the islands. The cattle business fails on the falklands as the ground is too wet and boggy for it to succeed, but Vernet manages to make a good living from the fishing industry on the islands. Most of the people that went to the falkland islands with Vernet were not actually Argentinean, but French and German. Also the grant from Argentina was only for the eastern island of the Falklands as well.

Vernet arrests 3 American boats for illegal fishing, America retaliates by sending the warship Lexington to the islands to sort things out and declares the islands free from all government in 1831. Now i have to admit this could be different as ive read another version of this, and i think it was that when Britain realised Vernet also had a grant from Argentina they had him kicked off the island for double crossing them. When people say that the British kicked off the Argentinean coloney they actually didnt, they only kicket Vernet and another person off the island for the deception of the grant, Vernet did get compensation but only a small amount. Everyone else of the coloney who were not mostly Argentinean but european and North American were allowed to stay on the islands. Argentina sends another Governor Don Juan Estaban to the islands but he is killed following a mutiny on the ship. Don jose Pinedo arrives in Argentiean War Ship Sarandi and takes charge of Argentinas colony again. The British war ship HMS Clio turns up to reiterate british sovereignty and forces Don Jose Pinedo to leave. British War ships leave leaving William Dickinson in charge of the islands who along with 4 other colonists are murdered by a gaucho gang led by Antonio Rivero and some American Sealers. British Sealer Hopeful rescues the remaining British colonists as unlawfullness is widespread upon the islands due to illegal sealing. British HMS Challenger and Hopeful arrive, arrest Rivero and others and take him back to Britain for Trial for murder. Port Louis is re-established. Due to the total lack of law that is now upon the islands full colonisation is intent by Britain to restore law. The British apoint Lt Moody as governor of the islands. Now heres the final bit and i really hope people read this last bit!!!!!! in 1841 General Juan Manuel de Rosas of The United Proviences of Rio De La Plate surrenders all claims to the Falkland Islands in return for DEBTS to The city of London to be released! so basically Argentina gave up the islands cos of Debts!
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby SilverbackPeru » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:56 am

But despite all this history i don´t think it would have mattered as Britain really did want shot of the islands in the 70s as it was costing a arm and a leg to keep it going at the time and the economy wasnt good at all. They also wanted rid of the islands despite the Falkland islanders wanting to stay British.
Obviously when Argentina invaded this changed everything, i think if the war hadn´t happened the islands would have been Argentine a long time ago! you could have had successful negotiations during the 80s and 90s once the military had been removed from power there and you could have full safety for political objectors without fear of them being drugged and dropped from planes into the Atlantic somewhere!

We have to be realistic now as the discovery of all the oil will change everything and negotiations of the islands really isn´t going to happen, and i don´t know if people realise just how much oil is there but its a lot! But at the end of the day the islands were given up to have debt owed to the City of London cleared and if that really is the case there isnt a leg for Argentina to stand on in this Arguement. If this isnt true well i don´t think they can argue either that all of the islands are Argentine as the British really have had a very long claim to the islands, but also the British should admit that part of the islands are Agentinean. Unfortunatly both partys will not accept shared islands. Also the peoples choice on the islands really should take a important role in teh decision and should be respected by Argentina as if they really don´t want to be Argentina then forcing that upon them is colonisation.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby stuart » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:58 pm

Sorry Silverback, historical fact bares no part in the discussion of the Malvinas, islands populated by full-blooded members of the Argentinian race since 500B.C. until their capture by dastardly British warmongers with evil curly mustaches. The great genocide of 1841 where over 2.5 million peaceful Argentinians were systematically exterminated will never be forgotten. Long live Argentina, and may the Kirchner Dynasty last a thousand generations!
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby jude » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:18 pm

stuart wrote:Sorry Silverback, historical fact bares no part in the discussion of the Malvinas, islands populated by full-blooded members of the Argentinian race since 500B.C. until their capture by dastardly British warmongers with evil curly mustaches. The great genocide of 1841 where over 2.5 million peaceful Argentinians were systematically exterminated will never be forgotten. Long live Argentina, and may the Kirchner Dynasty last a thousand generations!


At last a sensible and historically accurate contribution to this thread. My only quibble is that rather than calling the British "warmongers" you should call them what they really were: pirates!
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby Alan » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:28 pm

To build on Silverback´s post on the history, I came across this letter to the editor in the Financial Times. If the last name sounds familiar, it is because it is PPK´s brother.

Claim to Falklands based on five-year settlement
From Mr Michael Kuczynski.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9c600408-53d9 ... z1mZQk2tKJ
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby SilverbackPeru » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:44 pm

dam the FT site is a paid for site so can´t read it!
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:59 pm

I am sorry to both members and The FT, but due to possible copyright infringement I have removed the quotation, previously displayed.
I once again appologize for any inconvienience that this may have caused.
Ade
Last edited by adrian Thorne on Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby SilverbackPeru » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:58 pm

The colony that was meant to be Argentinean was also meant to be a British one but this was not realised until late on due to the deceit of Vernet. Gaucho Rivero actually didnt fight against a British invasion, but caused problems in protest to the poor living conditions on the island. He and a gang later murdered William Dickinson, then when the British Challenger turned up fled inland to avoid arrest, only for him to grass up the fellow members of his gang for murder in the hope of a more lenient sentence for himself. When captured and taken to Britain he was never trialed as despite the fact there was a British colony there i was not regisitered under British jurisdiction of law. But then this doesnt matter if it was given up by General de Rosas for the cancelation of debt owed to London. Also theres confusion over the fact that altho argentina took over what was spanish after independence, the Falkland islands were never fully Spanish in the first place as well.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby TonyLeslie » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:41 pm

Interesting point Adrian that came to me while reading that article you posted (name removed)and would probably explain why, when the Treaty of Madrid conceded the Spanish claim, at least transitorily, to Britain in 1771 that it did not become a regular British colony until 1833, which may or may not have slightly changed the way we look at this debate today.

These are the exact same dates that the British were rapidly (for them days) colonising Australia to keep it away from French and Dutch colonisation. 21,000 kilometres coastline being considerably more exposed and difficult to protect than the Falkland/Malvina Islands. 1788 Sydney, 1803 Hobart, 1824 Brisbane, 1829 Perth, 1835 Melbourne and 1836 Adelaide. Several smaller areas were also colonised between 1803 and 1824 including the southern tip of Western Australia, now Albany and islands off the North Australian coast.

The American revolutionary war 1775 - 1783 another date in this period

More importantly, these dates also cover the period of the Napoleonic wars, where we (or some of us) understand the extent of Royal Navy's (England) committment to blockading the French and Spanish Fleets. The Battles of the Nile, Cape Finisterre and Trafalga, all successfull campaigns by the Royal Navy were also fought during this time period.

Busy little vegemites the British through this period. Probably irrelevant information but points to note anyway.

Please Note:
Sorry, didn't know you (Adrian) had removed part of the article until I posted this. Let me know if you think what I have written interferes with anything. I have removed the name of the auther of your article from here as well
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:20 pm

Tony I agree The Royal Navy were very busy little Marmites. That said I believe the main issue here is the protection of 3,000 British subjects, their livlihoods and properties. The Uk are not in the least interested in invading Argentina for any reason what so ever.

Ps. No problem with the retraction. I only hope CC / EM / EC never saw it.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby Alan » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:29 pm

adrian Thorne wrote:I am sorry to both members and The FT, but due to possible copyright infringement I have removed the quotation, previously displayed.
I once again appologize for any inconvienience that this may have caused.
Ade


Here is a link in to a version of the same article that hasn´t been placed behind the FT´s firewall.. or at least not yet:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9c600408 ... z1mbdmnmte
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby TonyLeslie » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:44 am

Reading posts relating to an invasion of Argentina by Britain would be, at best, a fanciful daydream by some people. Could not be done by one country alone even if things continue to deteriate.

I think much of what we read is Politicians playing Politics to rev up support in hard economic times. If there is a conflict, it would be hard to imaging it would be England that would be the agressor as it has far more logistic problems than Argentina getting troops and defence forces into that area. Not withstanding that it is Argentina who are perpetuating to be the aggrieved party.

I would think that other South American Governments indicating political support for Argentina would be just that, political. Most countries in South America are facing increased investment and trade agreements and would be extremely unlikely to place themselves in jeopardy of losing billions of dollars of investment and trade by directly entering someone elses conflict in this day and age.

Things are very different in South America today than in 1982 when Chile gave radar support for the British and Peru gave weapon support to Argentina. Albeit, in my previous reading on the subject it might well have been Peruvian aircraft or weapons that sank a British warship on the day Chile shut down it´s radar system for maintenance. Chile and Argentina still have issues in the Pantagonia Region and Peru was upset at Arms Sales to Ecuador. The question being, has it been forgiven and forgotten.

It has also been a long standing agreement with the islanders themselves, that they do not want to be part of Argentina and Britain has always maintained it is they who should have the final word. It has already been recorded here that Britain has tried to encourage the people to consider the alternatives several times.
I think consideration should also be taken as to the years of development and infrastructure into what are the Falkland-Malvina Islands of today has been developed by the islanders themselves and they would be mostly reluctant to have it taken away from them.

If Argentina were to take over the islands, they would need to get onside very quickly with the Islanders, because if the population resisted and withdrew, leaving bare earth in their wake, it is not an easy job to recruit other people who can understand the vagaries of weather patterns and the type of Land Management required in a different environment and it can take years to become productive again. Obviously many Islanders would want to protect their investments, but different laws and regulations, could take their toll and encourage people to look elsewhere.

One must also reflect and sympathise with a whole population desperately trying to learn Spanish so they can read the aforementioned new laws and regulations. They would need to be more successful than my good self at this point.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby Comet » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:25 pm

tomsax wrote:The posturing is all political isn´t it? Argentina raises the stakes by talking up their claims. The UK says some boats to give a message that sovereignty is not negotiable, Argentina claims that this is militarisation just to react to that. Only people who have no knowledge of Argentina (okay so most of the UK population) thinks that Argentina would want to send an invasion force again, Only people completely misinformed and deluded (okay so that may be a lot of Argentinians) think that the UK would consider attacking Argentina.

I hate the way my government plays with politcal popularism regarding the Falklands. But, when it comes down to the crucial question, I think the wishes of the islanders should be respected. That has to be how these things are decided in this day and age.

It´s quite possible that the Scots will become independant soon. The UK is not a colonial nation any more. If we can give the Scots the right to cede that we would obvioulsy give the same right to Falklanders, but they have made it clear they don´t want to be independant or part of Argentina.


You DO NOT "give" Scotland the right to cede....typical colonial arrogance of the type which has endeared you to us Scots for centuries. Scotland will be fully independant when the majority of Scots want it and the day is fast approaching, Engerlund will have no say in the matter. the U.K is not a nation it is a union of 4 nations. Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English/Britons.
The same applies to the Falklands...the people who live there will decide their future and the english government will support them.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby Alan » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:28 pm

Now the latest twist in the road is that Peru has cancelled their welcome to a British Frigate that is on route to the disputed islands. Kind of akin to inviting someone over to your home, then calling them up when they are pulling into the driveway and cancelling the invite.

http://www.peruviantimes.com/21/peru-ca ... aim/15312/
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby chi chi » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:54 pm

Last week when I was at Lima airport, I saw that STARPERU is operating flights to the Islas Malvinas.

I couldn´t find anything back on their website so I think it´s a charter flight.
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:54 pm

As tension increases The Royal Navy have sent Battle ship HMS Dauntless. The most powerful ship in the British fleet.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -says.html
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby renodante » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:45 am

'A Type 45 is capable of wiping out the Argentine air force in a day if they were foolish enough to take us on.'
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby roddd » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:10 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... warns.html

Lets hope the Argies wait until we have built a new aircraft carrier first :)
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Re: Peru and the Falkland / Malvina Islands

Postby adrian Thorne » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:43 pm

I don´t think Argentina will repay the 45,000,000 they borrowed from the UK to part finance the last conflict.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... asion.html

The Argies have one problem. They are trying it on with the wrong people. ( THE BRITS)

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