Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:29 pm

I would avoid those kind of comments and the type of company that you frequent
Tomsax. Any former follower or any people that support terrorism in Peru are still
considered terrorists. It is enough for the department of Homeland security to find
out that a Peruvian visitor, citizen or resident was educated in a Maoist Communist
University to give him a one way ticket to Guantanamo. Because of the prior softness
showed during Toledos and Alan Garcia recent governments. We have a problem that
is growing day by day. You may have met the Brady bunch in Apurimac but they only
exist on the tv. It was all an act.


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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:02 pm

falconagain wrote:
But many Peruvians in the highlands have a Maoist Communist education from college, which
started in the 60s and 70s. One of the teachings of this education is start a war against
capitalism using the classism issue as a tool to advance their cause.



This is exactly the kind of wrong perception the authorities had, that permit the growth of SL for ten years in Peru. It is this idea that almost let them win. When the government realized that this was false it won the war.

The peruvians in the andes are not maoist communist. In fact SL found great opposition from the andeans. Yes, the education in Peru in general is very left wing but at the same time a great deal of andeans are very capitalistic. That is the funny thing. capitalist, with traditional ideas that talk with leftist talk.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:14 pm

Hitoruna wrote:
falconagain wrote:
But many Peruvians in the highlands have a Maoist Communist education from college, which
started in the 60s and 70s. One of the teachings of this education is start a war against
capitalism using the classism issue as a tool to advance their cause.



This is exactly the kind of wrong perception the authorities had, that permit the growth of SL for ten years in Peru. It is this idea that almost let them win. When the government realized that this was false it won the war.

The peruvians in the andes are not maoist communist. In fact SL found great opposition from the andeans. Yes, the education in Peru in general is very left wing but at the same time a great deal of andeans are very capitalistic. That is the funny thing. capitalist, with traditional ideas that talk with leftist talk.


I said many Peruvians in the highlands. The Peruvian military, law enforcement together with the American
CIA defined the area of influence of Terrorist groups which started strongly in the early 1970s by taking
over completely the high schools and Universities in specific provinces. No child could finish its education
in those provinces unless the child swore loyalty at the beginning to the PCP Patria Roja (Peruvian Communist Party), which then separated in many parts of which PCP Sendero Luminoso is the most
well known to today. According to the same terrorists their control was total until the year 2000.
But even then, the teachers were not removed from its posts which is why we currently have
a rebirth of terrorism. A sizable amount of Peruvians of these provinces traveled to China and
Russia (something that continues to this day), the purpose of the travels was to receive state
of the art terrorist training either to become terrorists themselves o become teachers of terrorists
to increase the efficacy of their movement. Meaning that if you have a Peruvian friend and he travels
frequently to Moscow or China, and he was born in a province of the area of influence since the 70s
or even 90s, it is highly probable that he was trained as a terrorist.

Hitoruna, check your own Peruvian history before posting.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:56 pm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 95/SDE.htm

Here is an extract from an American report with detailed information about the
affected areas in Peru.

The Training of Terrorist Organizations
CSC 1995
SUBJECT AREA Training
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
TITLE: The Training of Terrorist Organizations
AUTHOR: Major David E. Smith USMC
RESEARCH QUESTION: Is there a worldwide terrorist training apparatus?
DISCUSSION:
During the l96O's the Soviet Union and its communist satellites
deliberately provided training to terrorist organizations in order to further
their political and diplomatic aims and to destabilize the West. They were
instrumental in nurturing the skills employed by terrorists during the
l96O's, 7O's, and 8O's.

Peru is a good example of a South American nation where
terrorism is thriving. The Shining Path Organization (Sendero
Luminoso) is among the most ruthless terrorist groups in the world.
Sendero forces originally operated in the Peruvian countryside.
Members occupy a village, set up a revolutionary government, and
organize a popular school in the community. Once established, the
school is used to increase the literacy of the villagers and
propagandize. Teachers constantly evaluate the students to identify
potential recruits. All recruiting is instigated by the movement in
order to reduce the possibility of organizational penetration. Once
identified, candidates spend approximately one year receiving
political indoctrination and conducting propaganda activities such as
slogan painting on walls. They also take instruction on guerrilla
strategy. As the candidate progresses, he or she is trained in the use
of firearms and explosives. Physical training is also emphasized.
Members who have been fully accepted into the group are assigned
to a terrorist cell.


Here is another extract that mentions how the pro terrorist departments
funded themselves.

The growing worldwide appetite for
illegal narcotics will provide even greater incentives for alliances
between narcotics producers/distributors and indigenous terrorist
bands. The amount of money Peruvian and Colombian terror
organizations can extort from narcotics traffickers is staggering.
Many drug lords pay terrorists $l5,OOO per flight in or out of
protected runways.70 Police in Lima, Peru believe Sendero Luminoso
has accumulated $4O million, largely from runway "landing fees" .71
Future terrorists will continue to exploit publications that provide
instruction in useful techniques. Military manuals are common,
easily understood, and readily reproduced. The Anarchist's
Cookbook and publications such as the PIRA's Green Book
supplement those documents. Active duty or reserve military
training provides a background of experience that terrorists will
continue to tap as members of action teams and instructors. The
Former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact have generated thousands of
dispossessed military commissioned and noncommissioned officers
who could conceivably be enticed to provide mercenary instruction.
The combination of profits from illegal undertakings, in conjunction
with an available pool of experienced instructors, could lead to
enhanced training for members of financially unconstrained
movements. In addition to individual instructors, corporations may
offer training to terrorist organizations.


According to the Peruvian army Apurimac was region 3 or 4 in roman
numerals, one of the most loyal to terrorism for the whole period of
1970 to the year 2000. Total control over education, cities and people.
To this day Apurimac cultivates, sells drugs, transports drugs and
continues training its people to do the same as it is very profitable
for them. (There has been several articles and tv programs in the
last 10 years about the high networth of many of its residents, sunat
has intervened several times, there has been also intervention of
government authorities due to several politicians sold to the drug
cartels).
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:33 am

falconagain wrote:I said many Peruvians in the highlands. The Peruvian military, law enforcement together with the American
CIA defined the area of influence of Terrorist groups which started strongly in the early 1970s by taking
over completely the high schools and Universities in specific provinces. No child could finish its education
in those provinces unless the child swore loyalty at the beginning to the PCP Patria Roja (Peruvian Communist Party), which then separated in many parts of which PCP Sendero Luminoso is the most
well known to today. According to the same terrorists their control was total until the year 2000.
But even then, the teachers were not removed from its posts which is why we currently have
a rebirth of terrorism. A sizable amount of Peruvians of these provinces traveled to China and
Russia (something that continues to this day), the purpose of the travels was to receive state
of the art terrorist training either to become terrorists themselves o become teachers of terrorists
to increase the efficacy of their movement. Meaning that if you have a Peruvian friend and he travels
frequently to Moscow or China, and he was born in a province of the area of influence since the 70s
or even 90s, it is highly probable that he was trained as a terrorist.

Hitoruna, check your own Peruvian history before posting.


Well first of all if they travel to China or Russia today it would be useless, since China and Russia are now two of the most capitalistic countries in the world. Second, I am peruvian from the highlands and I have traveld to Beijing and HongKong because I wanted to eat chaufa :lol: so I dont need to check my history. I lived it.

Your problem is you are oversimplifying things. Yeah, the small "educated" elite of the highlands were usually communists and some maoists. But that is where your error lies (the same error of the communists such as che guevara). the uneducated masses were not communists at all. They were too "traditional " and too "stubbonrn indian" to be. That is why the frustration of all those "comunistas de ciudad" when they went to the countryside. It is a common mistake, "mistis" never understood the andes that well.

On the other hand I find that eventhough the retoric is usually leftists, many of the practices of the andes people is pretty capitalistic.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:56 am

Hitoruna wrote:
falconagain wrote:I said many Peruvians in the highlands. The Peruvian military, law enforcement together with the American
CIA defined the area of influence of Terrorist groups which started strongly in the early 1970s by taking
over completely the high schools and Universities in specific provinces. No child could finish its education
in those provinces unless the child swore loyalty at the beginning to the PCP Patria Roja (Peruvian Communist Party), which then separated in many parts of which PCP Sendero Luminoso is the most
well known to today. According to the same terrorists their control was total until the year 2000.
But even then, the teachers were not removed from its posts which is why we currently have
a rebirth of terrorism. A sizable amount of Peruvians of these provinces traveled to China and
Russia (something that continues to this day), the purpose of the travels was to receive state
of the art terrorist training either to become terrorists themselves o become teachers of terrorists
to increase the efficacy of their movement. Meaning that if you have a Peruvian friend and he travels
frequently to Moscow or China, and he was born in a province of the area of influence since the 70s
or even 90s, it is highly probable that he was trained as a terrorist.

Hitoruna, check your own Peruvian history before posting.


Well first of all if they travel to China or Russia today it would be useless, since China and Russia are now two of the most capitalistic countries in the world. Second, I am peruvian from the highlands and I have traveld to Beijing and HongKong because I wanted to eat chaufa :lol: so I dont need to check my history. I lived it.

Your problem is you are oversimplifying things. Yeah, the small "educated" elite of the highlands were usually communists and some maoists. But that is where your error lies (the same error of the communists such as che guevara). the uneducated masses were not communists at all. They were too "traditional " and too "stubbonrn indian" to be. That is why the frustration of all those "comunistas de ciudad" when they went to the countryside. It is a common mistake, "mistis" never understood the andes that well.

On the other hand I find that eventhough the retoric is usually leftists, many of the practices of the andes people is pretty capitalistic.


"Starting from the year 1970 to the year 2000 all students from the support regions of SL were not allowed
to finish their studies unless they swore loyalty to the maoist communist party and provided continous support to the cause". (Peruvian Intelligence Service, SIN).

Currently Andahuayslas and Abancay are the main transportation and distribution hub for the drug
production in the area. (Looks like they keep doing what they were taught in communist times).
Also according to Peruvian history Apurimac was the source of radicals that worked as leaders
and fighters in the PCP SL and that currently also form part of the people that support the VRAE
and local cultivation fields in Apurimac. With a population of 400,000 and an average income
of 200 soles a month. What do you think people do to get ahead in that area ?

Yes of course, they got their new 4x4s planting potatoes, rice and lettuces.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:19 am

To put it in clear words. Apurimac has an average income of 200 soles a month
or less (usually less). They have no external investment. How is it possible that
land prices have exploded in the area when people could not basically feed themselves.

Currently, many towns have 4 floor houses, expensive prices per square meter but
no sizable industry with good salaries or farms that produce specialty products.
There is also plenty of SUV 4x4 in the area. The SUNAT has been auditing everybody
but they cannot demonstrate where the income came from.

Are all people of Apurimac financial wizards from Hogwarts ???
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:41 am

bobg wrote:TOM HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THAT ?


Since it's true, very easily.

I'm not saying people didn't suffer in Lima. I was there during at that time and I know how people were affected.

But in places like Apurimac is was far worse in terms of bombs, violence and killing and in terms of impact on livelihoods. This is is why so many people from there fled the area to move to the relatively safe haven of Lima.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:53 am

falconagain wrote:To put it in clear words. Apurimac has an average income of 200 soles a month
or less (usually less). They have no external investment. How is it possible that
land prices have exploded in the area when people could not basically feed themselves.

Currently, many towns have 4 floor houses, expensive prices per square meter but
no sizable industry with good salaries or farms that produce specialty products.
There is also plenty of SUV 4x4 in the area. The SUNAT has been auditing everybody
but they cannot demonstrate where the income came from.

Are all people of Apurimac financial wizards from Hogwarts ???


One can't help getting the impression that there are some sour grapes coming into play here. If people are still poor does that make them okay?, because most of them are... I think your just looking for reasons to justify yourself rather than forming any coherent argument.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby bobg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:26 am

TOM
"But in places like Apurimac is was far worse in terms of bombs, violence and killing"

DEAD IS DEAD , VIOLENCE IS VIOLENCE AND KILLING, IF YOU ARE THE FAMILY OR DIRECTLY CONNECTED DO YOU NOT HAVE THE SAME FEELING ? DO YOU NOT SUFFER ? HOW CAN YOU PUT VALUE ON SUCH THINGS ? IS ONE LIFE BETTER ? HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU WERE IN LIMA AT THAT TIME ? MAYBE YOUR MEMORY IS DIMMED BY YOUR AGE.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:02 pm

tomsax wrote:
falconagain wrote:To put it in clear words. Apurimac has an average income of 200 soles a month
or less (usually less). They have no external investment. How is it possible that
land prices have exploded in the area when people could not basically feed themselves.

Currently, many towns have 4 floor houses, expensive prices per square meter but
no sizable industry with good salaries or farms that produce specialty products.
There is also plenty of SUV 4x4 in the area. The SUNAT has been auditing everybody
but they cannot demonstrate where the income came from.

Are all people of Apurimac financial wizards from Hogwarts ???


One can't help getting the impression that there are some sour grapes coming into play here. If people are still poor does that make them okay?, because most of them are... I think your just looking for reasons to justify yourself rather than forming any coherent argument.



I am against people that get rich using income derived from crime. Something that is a common to
all civilized people. All income derived from crime has been made at the expense and misery of others.
In an organized drug trade which is very labor and machinery intensive. Everyone involved is guilty.
From the people in charge of the cultivation, transportation, processing of the drug, chemical supply,
packing, storage, and other activities. In order to handle the volume currently produced in Peru, specially in the Area of Apurimac the department. There is the requirement of more than a hundred
thousand people. There is only 400,000 in the whole department. The only way to maintain the flow
almost all of them need to be on the take. This has already happened in other Departments of Peru
before. I am not against them because they are poor, I am against them because they corrupted
themselves and became criminals.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:41 pm

Not classism but 40 years of Sour Grapes for at least half of the Peruvians???

Of course Sour Grapes come into play like you said Tom. But they are actually common to
more than half of the Peruvian Population, most of the people in the coast and the jungle,
and the few people from the highlands that did not join the terrorists. There is a lot of
accumulated resentment due to their actions in the last 40 years. For reasons of space,
I will try to be as brief as possible and I will have to omit certain events.

Between 1969 and 1979 the Peruvian Agrarian reform was executed 15,826 big farms were
confiscated, the equivalent to 9 million hectares. All the property was given to 370,000.
On those times the Peruvian Communist Party had total control of the Peruvian Farmers
Organization. When the military asked the Peruvian Farmers Organization, the 370,000
people involved were all high ranking members of the maoist Peruvian Communist party.

Meaning: the poor Peruvians, all of them got swindled, none of them were able to enjoy
any of the benefits of the reforms. The new people in charge behaved in worst ways
than the previous management. Salaries were lowered. the Food supply prices increased.
Poverty increased considerably. Many of the 370,000 that received the properties, became
members of the PCP Sendero Luminoso in the 80s and funded its movement with money, weapons
and other kind of support. The cooperatives created by the government went broke.

The critics of the Peruvian Agrarian Reform talk about the following problems that affect
all Peruvians to this day:

1. The agricultural industry lost the following: proper infrastructure, machinery and the
accumulated knowledge of its management (Peru agricultural capacity did not reach the
same efficiency of 1969 until the year 2006)

2. agricultural and cattle industries lost their know how for operational procedure and machinery
management.

3. the problem of poverty was not solved. this reform actually increased poverty.

4. there was never a proper support policy from the government.


Source Book

Reforma Agraria and Desarrollo Rural en el Peru.
Fernando Eguren

From 1970 to this year 2013, we had several famines in Peru which are a direct result of the
Peruvian Agricultural Reform. At first I thought that the communist in charge of farming were
either incompetent or stupid. Then when I asked some friends that studied communism, they
told me that Maoist communism created famines and poverty in purpose in order to increase
their numbers. People that are hungry are easy to manipulate and indoctrinate. Something
that is very logical as part of the Peruvian Communist Party became Sendero Luminoso by
the end of the 70s. It worked very well for them at the beginning; their campaigns blamed
the United States and Capitalism for each famine and increased of poverty. At the same
time, the people that did not join looked the other way because they had met the members
of the party at a time when poverty or/and famine affected them. This sympathy was used
to manipulate people and be confident that the members of their local communist party
were not all bad guys.



The resentment and mistreatment if perfectly justified, at least half of the population
made the other half increased our debt, increased our poverty, increased loss of life,
increased our corruption.

Which is why is completely acceptable that a person from one region has total
disdain for the person of the other region. When their region has contributed to the
current backward attitudes and misguided capitalism that is destroying the country.

And today we have a fake capitalism in charge. There is no investment in education,
no investment in infrastructure, no investment in strategic industry. In 2006, Peru
had the worst infrastructure of Latin America, but on paper we are reach.
Just keeping a fake image, without doing anything to progress.

If anybody wants to see Peru's future, we just need to look at Madre de Dios and the
Illegal gold mining. That is Peru's future when freedom is given without duty.
An apparent paradise on the picture. A hell on earth when you arrive at your
destination.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:57 pm

You know what really confuses me about you Falconagain is that you are not totally wrong. I mean if you were I could just show you that. But inside your large tirades there are some concepts that are true. The problem is that they are mixed with a lot of nonsense. which makes it so hard to pinpoint it.

first, you have to decide. First you are talking about the "communists andeans" . Then complain about the cocaine illegal industry. Well, all the things you describe in the previous post sound very capitalistic(though illegal) to me. "Getting rich"? that is not communist parlance.

Second, you justify the "resentment" of the coast people. Well on the same note the whole peruvian population can have a "resentement" against the coast elites, those good for nothings that in more than 100 years of domination of the republic have not done anything good. We could sink in the ocean and nobody would notice. Is that a sign of a good leadership? Dont think so. How can a group of people having total power for more than 100 years can achieve nothing. If they were the CEO of a corporation they deserve to be FIRED.

Just give up your resentment. Peru is a complex society but good things and bad things are everywhere.

and again, the majority of andeans were not communists. They were too "indian" to be. Ask che guevara.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:29 pm

Hitoruna wrote:You know what really confuses me about you Falconagain is that you are not totally wrong. I mean if you were I could just show you that. But inside your large tirades there are some concepts that are true. The problem is that they are mixed with a lot of nonsense. which makes it so hard to pinpoint it.

first, you have to decide. First you are talking about the "communists andeans" . Then complain about the cocaine illegal industry. Well, all the things you describe in the previous post sound very capitalistic(though illegal) to me. "Getting rich"? that is not communist parlance.

Second, you justify the "resentment" of the coast people. Well on the same note the whole peruvian population can have a "resentement" against the coast elites, those good for nothings that in more than 100 years of domination of the republic have not done anything good. We could sink in the ocean and nobody would notice. Is that a sign of a good leadership? Dont think so. How can a group of people having total power for more than 100 years can achieve nothing. If they were the CEO of a corporation they deserve to be FIRED.

Just give up your resentment. Peru is a complex society but good things and bad things are everywhere.

and again, the majority of andeans were not communists. They were too "indian" to be. Ask che guevara.


Your reply show a lack of knowledge of Peruvian history, the Peruvian Communist Party
adopted the Maoist way of thinking at the end of the 1960s. One of the teachings provided
by foreign advisors was at first to obtain money by cultivating drugs or by providing protection
for a fee to drug producers. The PCP Maoist had control of the Peruvian Farmers organizations
since the 1950s. It is no surprise then that the first great expansion of cocaine production started
in the 1970s after the Peruvian Communist Party received its training abroad. They got the seeds
and the know how of how to handle the industry in those times and used it as a funding tool.
Maoist Communist have the characteristic of accumulating all the wealth of the country on
the cream of the administration and leaving the rest dirt poor in order to easily manipulate them.
North Corea is a modern example of that. The leaders live in luxury but the country has more
poverty than Peru. They repeated the same procedure in the 70s. 370,000 got all the good farms
and cattle. At the moment of famine (which repeated itself several times through the decades).
People just died. And the survivors were thought to hate Lima and the United States. Then
the same was repeated in the 80s, and 90s. And they keep doing it today. You can just listen
to the Movadef. Getting rich at the top is common communist parlance.

Resentment from the whole population about the coast elites.
Up to the 1960s I understand that according to what the communist peruvian farmers (all
card carrying members with no exception) were complaining about the abuses from all the
farm owners on a national level. From what I understand every farm was run as a business
and perfect records were kept. Even records from punishment like, today I slaped Harry
or things of the sort. How is it possible that after 40 years from the agrarian reform, no
written records were presented by the indian associations to reivindicate. They got access
to all paperwork when they received the property. What they did. They burned everything.
It appears to me that the new owners had something to hide. That they were not the saints
as they were portrayed by the government in that year. Have you ever wondered???
Every country in South America has detailed records of the abuses committed against indians.
But in our country the records were burned by the supposed oppressed themselves.

Now the last forty years of Peruvian debt and economic crisis are a direct result from the
industrial capacity lost due to agrarian reform and the diminished capacity created due to
terrorism. 40 years after 1970 and Peru was in better condition in 1969 than nowadays, we
had better capitalism, infrastructure, industry, agriculture, expectancy of life, housing,
waste management. That was the Peru left by the coast elites.

A great number of andeans were communist, a good number still are, others became involved
in the drug business and there is more bad things everywhere than good things. We are walking
backwards toward the abyss. Complexity is for developed societies. We are not there yet.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:47 am

Hitoruna wrote:first, you have to decide. First you are talking about the "communists andeans" . Then complain about the cocaine illegal industry. Well, all the things you describe in the previous post sound very capitalistic(though illegal) to me. "Getting rich"? that is not communist parlance.

.



There again, you are assuming that communist are a form of religious fanatics that discard
all capitalism and live in poverty.

Let me list a bunch of well known communists in Latin America: Vladimiro Montesinos
(Communist trained since childhood, stole a fortune from the government), Chavez
the former president of Venezuela (at his death, his family was the richest in the whole
country), Abimael Guzman, leader of Sendero Luminoso (had many offshore accounts
with millions on his name.

Of course we cannot forget the 370,000 Peruvians that benefited from the Agrarian reform.
They were all card carrying members of the Peruvian PCP, They never shared any wealth
with the other poor farmers, They financed terrorism against the state. And they are a
sizable part of the new rich that we see on the streets of Lima nowadays. They artificially
created many famines in different places of the country through decades and got a lot
of profit.

So far, as I can see, Communism is only a tune that is played by some to fool the rest
into giving up their money and power. As it has happened all over the world.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:01 am

This is all scapegoating. You want to put the blame on the sort of people that come from Apurimac because this suits your prejudices. The huge majority of people from the highlands are not communists, are not involved in drug production, were not responsible for the agrarian reform, were not responsible for terrorism in the 70/80/90s. They are not and cannot be held responsible for all Peru's failings. Get over that and stop making up facts that are obviously not true.

You still can't seem to accept that coca production is something that happens in the lower Andes slope/upper jungle, not in the highlands. This is pretty basic knowledge.

You need to understand that classism in Peru goes back a long long way. That is the reason for why coastal people denigrate people in the highlands. It goes back a lot longer than what has happened in the last 40 years. Agrarian reform of the 70s and communist ideas have kept Peru back from modernity and progress but so has classism.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:00 am

falconagain wrote:Your reply show a lack of knowledge of Peruvian history, the Peruvian Communist Party
adopted the Maoist way of thinking at the end of the 1960s. One of the teachings provided
by foreign advisors was at first to obtain money by cultivating drugs or by providing protection
for a fee to drug producers. The PCP Maoist had control of the Peruvian Farmers organizations
since the 1950s. It is no surprise then that the first great expansion of cocaine production started
in the 1970s after the Peruvian Communist Party received its training abroad. They got the seeds
and the know how of how to handle the industry in those times and used it as a funding tool.
Maoist Communist have the characteristic of accumulating all the wealth of the country on
the cream of the administration and leaving the rest dirt poor in order to easily manipulate them.
North Corea is a modern example of that. The leaders live in luxury but the country has more
poverty than Peru. They repeated the same procedure in the 70s. 370,000 got all the good farms
and cattle. At the moment of famine (which repeated itself several times through the decades).
People just died. And the survivors were thought to hate Lima and the United States. Then
the same was repeated in the 80s, and 90s. And they keep doing it today. You can just listen
to the Movadef. Getting rich at the top is common communist parlance.

Resentment from the whole population about the coast elites.
Up to the 1960s I understand that according to what the communist peruvian farmers (all
card carrying members with no exception) were complaining about the abuses from all the
farm owners on a national level. From what I understand every farm was run as a business
and perfect records were kept. Even records from punishment like, today I slaped Harry
or things of the sort. How is it possible that after 40 years from the agrarian reform, no
written records were presented by the indian associations to reivindicate. They got access
to all paperwork when they received the property. What they did. They burned everything.
It appears to me that the new owners had something to hide. That they were not the saints
as they were portrayed by the government in that year. Have you ever wondered???
Every country in South America has detailed records of the abuses committed against indians.
But in our country the records were burned by the supposed oppressed themselves.

Now the last forty years of Peruvian debt and economic crisis are a direct result from the
industrial capacity lost due to agrarian reform and the diminished capacity created due to
terrorism. 40 years after 1970 and Peru was in better condition in 1969 than nowadays, we
had better capitalism, infrastructure, industry, agriculture, expectancy of life, housing,
waste management. That was the Peru left by the coast elites.

A great number of andeans were communist, a good number still are, others became involved
in the drug business and there is more bad things everywhere than good things. We are walking
backwards toward the abyss. Complexity is for developed societies. We are not there yet.


Yes, "my" lack of knowledge of peruvian history :mrgreen: . How about watching yourself in the mirror. First, you believe that the communist party became maoist. Nonsense. The comunist party in Peru never became maoist. They remained staunchly stalinists. the ones who became maoists split and that is the reason why there were so many communist groups in Peru.
Second you seem to believe that the agrarian reform was led by maoists. Nothing further from the truth. The communists were enemies of the peruvian revolution. some were deported. Yeah some military men after Velazco became communist but not even there were maoist but guevarists.

third you insist with your nonsense about andeans being communists. Do you even know why che guevara never had any chance in latin america? I leave you that as homework.

I dont need "records" about the abuses. My father saw them first hand. with his own eyes. And again Capitalism is a model that runs based on FREE PEOPLE who sell their labor. Not on serfs, like the useless coast elites had before the agrarian reform.

You think that we are goint toward the abyss. well that is easy to say since failing is always easier than winning. I bet to say that we are going up (with a great risk to fail but up) Nowadays many of the nonsense that we had 10 years ago is dissapearing. Yeah caothically maybe but capitalism is finally triumphing due to us, the andeans. not to the useless coast good for nothings

but then again I already lost hope you would ever understand. Is your name Dammert by any chance? :mrgreen: :roll:
Last edited by Hitoruna on Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:06 am

falconagain wrote:

Of course we cannot forget the 370,000 Peruvians that benefited from the Agrarian reform.
They were all card carrying members of the Peruvian PCP,
.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is the funniest thing I have heard this week thanks. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:47 am

Hitoruna wrote:
falconagain wrote:

Of course we cannot forget the 370,000 Peruvians that benefited from the Agrarian reform.
They were all card carrying members of the Peruvian PCP,
.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is the funniest thing I have heard this week thanks. :mrgreen:


Basic Peruvian history. Go check the records and the newspapers of that time. The PCP
had total control of the farming associations and their members were the leaders of all
of them.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:56 am

No, while I love to answer the comments of Tomsax and Hitoruna. I would like to know
from the rest what are the examples of classism that you have currently witnessed in Peru.

Please take in account the following:

- Domestic employees are currently protected by congress law that determines their
minimum wage and benefits. Having an empleada for cheap is no longer an option
which is why so many people hire domestic help for less than 20 hours.

- the estate and private companies are open to hire all races and everybody has the
opportunity to be promoted. If you look at current companies the staff comes from
everywhere in Peru. Only one downside, whenever a company becomes completely
indian, then they only hire only indians and exclude every other race. While not a
common occurrence. It still happens with some frequency.

- there is no discrimination on who buys the real estate.

Now what I wonder is where the classism takes place, we do not have bathrooms for indians
and other peruvians, public meetings allow everybody, government meetings allow everybody.
If a group of people does not like another group of people is a matter of personal choice.
We all cannot sit together and sing Kumbaya like a bunch of happy Cuys. But in other places
the same thing cannot happen.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:27 am

falconagain wrote:
Hitoruna wrote:
falconagain wrote:

Of course we cannot forget the 370,000 Peruvians that benefited from the Agrarian reform.
They were all card carrying members of the Peruvian PCP,
.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is the funniest thing I have heard this week thanks. :mrgreen:


Basic Peruvian history. Go check the records and the newspapers of that time. The PCP
had total control of the farming associations and their members were the leaders of all
of them.


Newspapers? Who needs newspapers? (I had a room full of them btw) I lived through that period. My family was well involved. (but of course for you that would mean that I am a maoist who became rich right lol). The PCP (which was stalinist not maoist) had control of nothing. The military, socialists as they were , were never friends of communists or aprists. They hated them. The "farming associations" as you call them, were based on cooperativism. They were controlled by organizations built by the military.

I have a theory though. You are very young, has not lived through that period and only have been told by your elders all the nonsense you write because they wanted to scare you from the "evil indians" :wink: .. Pity. I thought your way of thinking was almost extinguished in Peru but I guess I was wrong, and I am witnessing a living fossil. Wonderful :P
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby richorozco » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:09 pm

Good back-and-forth ... both of you have good points and there are some half-truths written down. This is a common tactic to gain credibility (state facts and sources) and then throw in some assumptions since the credibility has already been gained (or so the person thinks).

Anyway, what I find weird / funny about Peru is that people ... say a male person from S. Africa who has spent time in jail and does not know how to speak Spanish .... becomes an actor in Peru!!!!

The Peruvian congress has people from all sorts of Countries, but what I find weird is that people can have no formal education and even be poor, but if you have the "look" you are treated differently. I find it weird because in any other country you would first look at the clothes(are they torn, dirty, etc...), does the person speak in slang or is the person educated and speaks well, etc....

If you go to Beijing, you see Chinese (you don't see middle-eastern actors or German politicians), If you go to India you see Indian (Punjabi, Gujurati, etc...) people and you don't see Italian actors or Russian politicians, if you go to the Ukraine you see Ukrainians or maybe some Polish, Czechs, etc.... but you will not see Japanese politicians or American actors.

BUT in Peru .... the dynamics are weird..... very weird. It is like a super melting pot where the politics is more representative of the UN.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:58 pm

richorozco wrote:Good back-and-forth ... both of you have good points and there are some half-truths written down. This is a common tactic to gain credibility (state facts and sources) and then throw in some assumptions since the credibility has already been gained (or so the person thinks).

Anyway, what I find weird / funny about Peru is that people ... say a male person from S. Africa who has spent time in jail and does not know how to speak Spanish .... becomes an actor in Peru!!!!

The Peruvian congress has people from all sorts of Countries, but what I find weird is that people can have no formal education and even be poor, but if you have the "look" you are treated differently. I find it weird because in any other country you would first look at the clothes(are they torn, dirty, etc...), does the person speak in slang or is the person educated and speaks well, etc....

If you go to Beijing, you see Chinese (you don't see middle-eastern actors or German politicians), If you go to India you see Indian (Punjabi, Gujurati, etc...) people and you don't see Italian actors or Russian politicians, if you go to the Ukraine you see Ukrainians or maybe some Polish, Czechs, etc.... but you will not see Japanese politicians or American actors.

BUT in Peru .... the dynamics are weird..... very weird. It is like a super melting pot where the politics is more representative of the UN.


I do not get it. If the person is a good actor and has Peruvian citizenship. Why not hire him???
Peruvians of Mixed descent are a sizable portion of the population, it has happened with both
white and indian in our country. If you had an anden indian only cast it would not be representative of
the country. The indians from the jungle are quite different, the criollos are all different and Lima
is a mix of the whole. To have a uniform cast of only indians would be the same as to have a cast
of only whites in any kind of program.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:11 pm

Hitoruna wrote:
falconagain wrote:
Hitoruna wrote:
falconagain wrote:

Of course we cannot forget the 370,000 Peruvians that benefited from the Agrarian reform.
They were all card carrying members of the Peruvian PCP,
.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is the funniest thing I have heard this week thanks. :mrgreen:


Basic Peruvian history. Go check the records and the newspapers of that time. The PCP
had total control of the farming associations and their members were the leaders of all
of them.


Newspapers? Who needs newspapers? (I had a room full of them btw) I lived through that period. My family was well involved. (but of course for you that would mean that I am a maoist who became rich right lol). The PCP (which was stalinist not maoist) had control of nothing. The military, socialists as they were , were never friends of communists or aprists. They hated them. The "farming associations" as you call them, were based on cooperativism. They were controlled by organizations built by the military.

I have a theory though. You are very young, has not lived through that period and only have been told by your elders all the nonsense you write because they wanted to scare you from the "evil indians" :wink: .. Pity. I thought your way of thinking was almost extinguished in Peru but I guess I was wrong, and I am witnessing a living fossil. Wonderful :P


We all had the room full of newspapers in Peru. I dont remember why, but every family had one.
The PCP had several factions, my posts (if you bothered to read them in order) only refer specifically
to the maoist faction and its expansion strategy as stated by Peruvian History and the Peruvian Military
itself. The military was never socialist, while certain policies were implemented on that direction,
the military called themselves another name for their way of thinking and they make sure of
declaring in public that they were against communism and aprims. Up to there you are right.

The cooperatives were created by the military after the farmer asociacitions (asociaciones de campesinos).

I would have flunked you if I was a Peruvian History teacher. You are twisting facts to fit your personal view of the world.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:42 pm

Now, we have been talking for days about the classism directed towards the indian part of
the population. But as everybody is aware, between the agrarians reform, international help,
church help, government protection laws, the indian ethnic group has been given plenty of
opportunities. But there is a new group of Peruvian Citizens that started broke, speaking
another language, but that through the years some of them have been able to move from
a poverty level lower than any Peruvian to middle class or high class without experiencing
any barriers or complaints of any kind towards classism, racism or any other ism unique to Peru.

Who am I talking about, Fujimoris chinese nationalized Peruvians (60,000) that started to
arrive in 1996. Now if Indian Peruvians are so tolerant and nice as Tomsax and Hitoruna
implied. Why in all these years; No association of Peruvian Indians from anywhere in Peru
has extended a helping hand towards these new poor brothers from China.
The point of Tolerance, Freedom and Non discrimination is that they flow back and
forth everywhere but looks like the supposed called "affected" on this thread are actually
extreme bigots.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:30 pm

Funny, I guess I ll wait a little more for my "goverment, international and church help". :mrgreen:
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:59 am

On a positive note it's good to get two Peruvians on this forum giving their points of view in such good English. Some years ago this didn't happen on this forum.

I agree with a lot of Hitoruna's opinions and find his perspective very interesting. While I don't agree so much with falconagain I think his views are very common in Peru (still) which also makes it interesting and important to hear.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby minos » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:58 am

It is my personal opinion, which comes from Europe classism, because if the conquerors of Peru, many of them were beheaded including Almagro and his son at the Convent of Las Mercedes, in Cuzco; Francisco Pizarro himself, whose head in Lima, and so did his brother Gonzalo, who is co-discoverer of the Amazon River.

I say if the Spanish did against his own people after doing these great works, obviously because at some point consider not just rubbish and that for me is classism.

But as I said, this is not typical of Peru, probably the old continent, with the idea of their kings and many hierarchies.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:51 pm

minos wrote:It is my personal opinion, which comes from Europe classism, because if the conquerors of Peru, many of them were beheaded including Almagro and his son at the Convent of Las Mercedes, in Cuzco; Francisco Pizarro himself, whose head in Lima, and so did his brother Gonzalo, who is co-discoverer of the Amazon River.

I say if the Spanish did against his own people after doing these great works, obviously because at some point consider not just rubbish and that for me is classism.

But as I said, this is not typical of Peru, probably the old continent, with the idea of their kings and many hierarchies.


Classism implies the restriction of certain groups to escalate in society. But in Peru the Chinese inmigrants moved from the bottom of society (they arrived as slaves in the 19th century) to middle and high class within Peruvian society. The same has happened with the new Chinese Peruvians brought by Fujimori, half of them did not learn any Spanish but they are already middle class or high class in Lima.
While many Peruvians criticized them harshly, that did not slow them down in improving their economic
condition.

Now why the same thing does not happen with the Peruvian Indians or the Peruvian blacks.
The answer could be as simple as they are lazier than the Chinese, something that is actually
common knowledge as the stereotype for Asian Peruvians is that they are the hardest working
people available in Peru.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:00 am

falconagain wrote:
Classism implies the restriction of certain groups to escalate in society. But in Peru the Chinese inmigrants moved from the bottom of society (they arrived as slaves in the 19th century) to middle and high class within Peruvian society. The same has happened with the new Chinese Peruvians brought by Fujimori, half of them did not learn any Spanish but they are already middle class or high class in Lima.
While many Peruvians criticized them harshly, that did not slow them down in improving their economic
condition.

Now why the same thing does not happen with the Peruvian Indians or the Peruvian blacks.
The answer could be as simple as they are lazier than the Chinese, something that is actually
common knowledge as the stereotype for Asian Peruvians is that they are the hardest working
people available in Peru.


"they?" wait, didnt you say "you were an indian too"? :roll:

Chinese came 150 years ago or so. In contrast "indians" were allowed to be free in 1968 (yeah thanks to you poor vicitms being demoted from being the "amos"). In that short time, where do you think most of the economic activity runs in Peru? in Miraflores? :mrgreen:

give us 150 years and lets see who is "lazier"....
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:55 am

Hitoruna wrote:
falconagain wrote:
Classism implies the restriction of certain groups to escalate in society. But in Peru the Chinese inmigrants moved from the bottom of society (they arrived as slaves in the 19th century) to middle and high class within Peruvian society. The same has happened with the new Chinese Peruvians brought by Fujimori, half of them did not learn any Spanish but they are already middle class or high class in Lima.
While many Peruvians criticized them harshly, that did not slow them down in improving their economic
condition.

Now why the same thing does not happen with the Peruvian Indians or the Peruvian blacks.
The answer could be as simple as they are lazier than the Chinese, something that is actually
common knowledge as the stereotype for Asian Peruvians is that they are the hardest working
people available in Peru.


"they?" wait, didnt you say "you were an indian too"? :roll:

Chinese came 150 years ago or so. In contrast "indians" were allowed to be free in 1968 (yeah thanks to you poor vicitms being demoted from being the "amos"). In that short time, where do you think most of the economic activity runs in Peru? in Miraflores? :mrgreen:

give us 150 years and lets see who is "lazier"....


The Chinese started at the bottom of society (lower than the Peruvian Indians as they had no property
whatsoever, not even their clothes were owned by them). The culis were not liberated until the end
of the 19th century. Still starting at the bottom of society, with less money than the indians per person
and less freedom they were able to escalate in society.

1968 is the date of the agrarian reform. But the Peruvian Indians Communist farmers were not so poor
as they were able to pay the monthly fees to their Farmers and Communists associations. The equivalent
of a Monthly fee to any association was more than what a Chinese earned by himself on three months of
work. What happened with all that money, squandered in booze and parties. Which is why the chinese
moved ahead in society and the indians did not.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby SmartKitty » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:57 am

Unfortunately it's true. Peruvian natives are lazier than any immigrant, Asian, Europeans, etc. Just look around, Chinese, Germans, Russians and others did come to Peru with 1 suitcase or nothing and in 5-10 years they are a solid middle class or more while Peruvian natives are complaining for centuries they are poor and begging for charities. There are exceptions, but the whole picture is this. If there are heavy rains and the roads, housing are destroyed, you can see Peruvian Indians sitting on the ground and begging for government help, while others will start to fix the road with their own hands. Begging, cheating and stealling is the national sport here but not so much working.

Hitoruna, I understand you want to defend Peru at any cost but talking about give us 100-150 years is nonsense, while Chile, Argentina and others were developing their industries, Peruvian Indians were and are until now chewing the coca leaves. It's true, now the Peruvian government is more Cholo than ever but everything the new cholos do it's to get their hands on coca production, dealing and export. Where are Peruvian (Cholo, Indian) factories, industry, science and development? What do we export?

“Peru is a beggar sitting on a gold bench” So said Italian Naturalist Antonio Raimondo in the 19th century and it’s sometimes how Peruvians describe themselves.
Last edited by SmartKitty on Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby sbaustin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:53 am

SmartKitty wrote:Unfortunately it's true. Peruvian natives are lazier than any immigrant, Asian, Europeans, etc.


I might as well write something like everyone that uses the handle "SmartKitty" on the internet is more racist than anyone that uses a handle that start's with "A", with some exceptions. Then I guess I could point out some examples. Your statement is ridiculous.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby SmartKitty » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:15 am

sbaustin wrote:
SmartKitty wrote:Unfortunately it's true. Peruvian natives are lazier than any immigrant, Asian, Europeans, etc.

I might as well write something like everyone that uses the handle "SmartKitty" on the internet is more racist than anyone that uses a handle that start's with "A", with some exceptions. Then I guess I could point out some examples. Your statement is ridiculous.

Ha, it's just your personal opinion. You don't know me and you even didn't read or quote all my posting.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby bobg » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:24 am

The same situation exists in the U.S. with the blacks , there has been a lot of progress made since the emancipation we have a black president but there is also a society of people of all colors who have become dependent upon the government for their welfare. For generations they have become less likely to seek self support, The programs started has an assistance for needful persons, but thru political opportunism the government has used it as a tool for them to advance there own agendas with winning votes, and expanding the system.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby sbaustin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:44 am

SmartKitty wrote:
sbaustin wrote:
SmartKitty wrote:Unfortunately it's true. Peruvian natives are lazier than any immigrant, Asian, Europeans, etc.

I might as well write something like everyone that uses the handle "SmartKitty" on the internet is more racist than anyone that uses a handle that start's with "A", with some exceptions. Then I guess I could point out some examples. Your statement is ridiculous.

Ha, it's just your personal opinion. You don't know me and you even didn't read or quote all my posting.
Image


Of course I don't know you, all I have to go by is what you write here hence my own response which is my opinion. Yes I read your post and I didn't quote the entire thing because anyone can go and read all of it.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:11 pm

This article about Spanish immigration shows that things have not changed as of today.

"Cubans, Argentian and Peruvian are the most educated inmigrants; Chinese, Rumanian
and Bulgarain are the most entrepeneurial"

08/06/2008

http://elconfidencialdigital.com/mundo/ ... jeto=17323
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:23 pm

sbaustin wrote:
SmartKitty wrote:Unfortunately it's true. Peruvian natives are lazier than any immigrant, Asian, Europeans, etc.


I might as well write something like everyone that uses the handle "SmartKitty" on the internet is more racist than anyone that uses a handle that start's with "A", with some exceptions. Then I guess I could point out some examples. Your statement is ridiculous.


If I follow your reasoning then HelloKitty becomes fascist and your statement becomes more ridiculous.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby sbaustin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:13 pm

falconagain wrote:If I follow your reasoning then HelloKitty becomes fascist and your statement becomes more ridiculous.


The response that you are referencing was supposed to be ridiculous much like saying that native peruvians (not sure what exactly is meant by native) are lazier than any immigrant..
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:20 pm

sbaustin wrote:
falconagain wrote:If I follow your reasoning then HelloKitty becomes fascist and your statement becomes more ridiculous.


The response that you are referencing was supposed to be ridiculous much like saying that native peruvians (not sure what exactly is meant by native) are lazier than any immigrant..


I said that Peruvian indians are lazier than Chinese because the Chinese were able to improve their
economical situation under worse conditions than the indians (slavery in this case), I also made a
comparison with recent Chinese inmigrants (last 20 years), that repeated the same feat in Lima
without any trouble. (some of them are now middle or high class Peruvians without even speaking
Spanish).

Please use proper statements in your replies.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby sbaustin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:39 pm

falconagain wrote:
sbaustin wrote:
falconagain wrote:If I follow your reasoning then HelloKitty becomes fascist and your statement becomes more ridiculous.


The response that you are referencing was supposed to be ridiculous much like saying that native peruvians (not sure what exactly is meant by native) are lazier than any immigrant..


I said that Peruvian indians are lazier than Chinese because the Chinese were able to improve their
economical situation under worse conditions than the indians (slavery in this case), I also made a
comparison with recent Chinese inmigrants (last 20 years), that repeated the same feat in Lima
without any trouble. (some of them are now middle or high class Peruvians without even speaking
Spanish).

Please use proper statements in your replies.


Yes, you described an entire set of people as lazier than an entire other set of people which is generally what someone that wants to be demeaning would write.

Can you please let me know which of my statements wasn't "proper"?
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:56 pm

Lets be clear, what's being discussed here is racism not classism.

Definition of racism:

1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
2. Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

Racial groups have far more in common than they have differences. One of the things they have in common is the huge variation in intelligence, personality, abilities etc.

People base judgements according to race because they are racist. It's that simple. There is no rational or logical justification for doing so.

Sure it is a common way of thinking. Unfortunately we live in a very racist world. Less racist that it was because people are generally more educated than they were say 40 years ago, but still racist.

Talking of laziness... racist thinking is a lazy way of thinking. Its a comfortable lazy way of thinkng for people who like to feel superior to others and to justify their own moral and character failings.

I agree many people from China are very hardworking as are many from the Peruvian highlands. In Peru there is far more racism towards people from the Peruvian highlands than towards Chinese which is part of the reason the Chinese do better here. But racism can be overcome. There are now many Peruvians from the highlands who are very successful in spite of racism and prejudice against them . Of course the likes of falconagain will claim they are must be drug traffickers but this is just sour grapes because he hasn't done as well and resents their success.

The poorest in the highlands have no choice but to work hard as they would otherwise not survive. Try living in the Peruvian highlands with small amount of land in numerous different locations and less than 50 animials and see how hard you have to work to survive. I lived with these people. Getting up before six is the norm, walking many tens of kilometre very fast each day with steep climbs, And hard physical labour. The likes of falconagain would probably die on the spot after a day of that much exertion. But he decides he wants to look down his little nose and call these people lazy.

It's pretty pitiful. You have to feel sorry for him.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby minos » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:15 pm

Falconagain wrote
But in Peru the Chinese inmigrants moved from the bottom of society (they arrived as slaves in the 19th century) to middle and high class within Peruvian society. The same has happened with the new Chinese Peruvians brought by Fujimori, half of them did not learn any Spanish but they are already middle class or high class in Lima.
While many Peruvians criticized them harshly, that did not slow them down in improving their economic
condition.

Now why the same thing does not happen with the Peruvian Indians or the Peruvian blacks.
The answer could be as simple as they are lazier than the Chinese, something that is actually
common knowledge as the stereotype for Asian Peruvians is that they are the hardest working
people available in Peru.


If a black family sees him dancing or playing football, everyone applauds, if a Jew goes to college, welcomes the whole family, if a Chinese family sees saving, everyone cheers. if you are corrupt and your family applauds silver however confusedly comes to the house, because there will be a propensity to corruption

It is not the fact of being black, if not the kind of cultural learning were given, what he approved and what is not, therefore, think it is unlikely that we stigmatize someone for being Chinese or being white etc..

It has nothing to do with the person in itself, but rather with parenting.
Last edited by minos on Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:06 pm

tomsax wrote:Lets be clear, what's being discussed here is racism not classism.

Definition of racism:

1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
2. Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

Racial groups have far more in common than they have differences. One of the things they have in common is the huge variation in intelligence, personality, abilities etc.

People base judgements according to race because they are racist. It's that simple. There is no rational or logical justification for doing so.

Sure it is a common way of thinking. Unfortunately we live in a very racist world. Less racist that it was because people are generally more educated than they were say 40 years ago, but still racist.

Talking of laziness... racist thinking is a lazy way of thinking. Its a comfortable lazy way of thinkng for people who like to feel superior to others and to justify their own moral and character failings.

I agree many people from China are very hardworking as are many from the Peruvian highlands. In Peru there is far more racism towards people from the Peruvian highlands than towards Chinese which is part of the reason the Chinese do better here. But racism can be overcome. There are now many Peruvians from the highlands who are very successful in spite of racism and prejudice against them . Of course the likes of falconagain will claim they are must be drug traffickers but this is just sour grapes because he hasn't done as well and resents their success.

The poorest in the highlands have no choice but to work hard as they would otherwise not survive. Try living in the Peruvian highlands with small amount of land in numerous different locations and less than 50 animials and see how hard you have to work to survive. I lived with these people. Getting up before six is the norm, walking many tens of kilometre very fast each day with steep climbs, And hard physical labour. The likes of falconagain would probably die on the spot after a day of that much exertion. But he decides he wants to look down his little nose and call these people lazy.

It's pretty pitiful. You have to feel sorry for him.


Peru is different in many respects and the majority of Peruvians tend to actually use both concepts
without regard to the difference (classism and racism). (Basic Peruvian College sociology class).
When you divide them the way it is used abroad, then the concepts do not apply to Peru as they
are not understood by the general population in that way.

When you see a group of people behaving in a uniform way then you can make the generalization
without any problem and without being racist. A millionaire in the United States said that the
ability to make generalizations is useful because it allows you to judge groups of people by their
actions. The actions define the people but not the color. Racism is a shield that people use in
order to avoid the consequence of their actions. Before the PC crap crowded the mind of people
in the United States every different group of people had their sets of troubles incorporating within
society, Irish, Catholics, and others. Still, the differences were resolved without the need of PC
Crap that Tomsax spouses and that drags the world towards collapse. The same American millionaire
said, If I own twenty apartment building and I fill them with the troublesome Irish, Catholics or
other so called problematic human groups in the us. They well keep up their dwellings organized
and properly clean. But if I put blacks on the same place, it will become a getto with all its consequences. Then why should I treat them the same way, just because they claim that I am a racist.

My original argument is that Chinese in its majority are more hardworking than the majority
of Peruvian Indians. Proof: their networth grows generation after generation under worse conditions.
The same thing has happened in Spain and other countries. The new success of Peruvians from the
hightlands is due to the legislation pro highland people started by Toledo which makes more than
half of the government budget go towards people in the highlands. A new welfare class that goes
together with the ones that deal with drugs or terrorism. It is very easy to make money when the
road is open to you. Still with all that money in favor of the Peruvians in the Highlands, the chinese
were able to make ahead. Something that makes the situation worse because they are not only lazy
but also stupid if they cannot get ahead with more capital to begin with.

The drug traffickers information is constantly reported by the police, army and the government. They
tell you how many people are involved on it, how much money is made and even which towns sold out
on it. I do not resent the success of hard working highlands Indians. But I resent the success of criminals
(I do not care whose family gets affected by my comments in that regard) In Peru the worse criminals
are: Maois Radical Communists, Terrorists, Illegal Miners, Drug dealers and like any Good Peruvian their
deserved fate (for women, childrean alll of them) is death due to the misery created to the country.

There is Chilean Highland, Argentinian Highlands, Damn there is far away places in the United States
itself where people have been able to survive and thrive under worse conditions than Peruvians.
Their situation is a product of their actions. Or how is it possible that the cities that were populated
with Irish in Peru have better services and conditions than the cities that were populated only with
the highland population.

I have never been exposed to farm work. But I have seen many Americans produce the equivalent
of 10 or 50 times the amount of production of a Peruvian farmer without much effort. Maybe there
is some brains missing as the Peruvian farmland is stuck centuries behind. Still a product of their
own decision, they removed all the farming technicians and engineers from their farms in 1968.
And then wonder why they have several famines. Again a consequence of their own actions.
They like maoist communism then they should also like the product. Eat the dirt that is the product
of your stolen work.

I feel sorry for you that try to justify the most backward part of Peruvian society to feel better when
you sleep at night. Actually I dont feel sorry. But your destiny is the kind of punishment that I would
not wish on my worst enemy.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby sbaustin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:16 pm

Now we've got:

falconagain wrote: because they are not only lazy But also stupid if they cannot get ahead with more capital to begin with.


Just so you are clear, when you disparaging write against the Peruvian natives are you only referring to the highlands or do you mean every Peruvian that isn't a recent immigrant. Your insults are kind of hard to follow and I'd like to know exactly who you are referring to.

I don't see anyone trying to justify anything about Peru, only responding to the manner in which you are writing. Perhaps you should think about how you are communicating.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby SmartKitty » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:46 pm

falconagain wrote:This article about Spanish immigration shows that things have not changed as of today.

"Cubans, Argentian and Peruvian are the most educated inmigrants; Chinese, Rumanian
and Bulgarain are the most entrepeneurial"

08/06/2008

http://elconfidencialdigital.com/mundo/ ... jeto=17323

Yes, the best Peruvian people is abandoning Peru, no development, no jobs, no place for educated people, crooks, drugs, crime everywhere, starting from the highest government level. It's sad.
My name is Fortunata Carhuapoma, pies de plomo. I'm a modest serrano girl in polleras and alpargatas.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:20 pm

SmartKitty wrote:Unfortunately it's true. Peruvian natives are lazier than any immigrant, Asian, Europeans, etc. Just look around, Chinese, Germans, Russians and others did come to Peru with 1 suitcase or nothing and in 5-10 years they are a solid middle class or more while Peruvian natives are complaining for centuries they are poor and begging for charities. There are exceptions, but the whole picture is this. If there are heavy rains and the roads, housing are destroyed, you can see Peruvian Indians sitting on the ground and begging for government help, while others will start to fix the road with their own hands. Begging, cheating and stealling is the national sport here but not so much working.

Hitoruna, I understand you want to defend Peru at any cost but talking about give us 100-150 years is nonsense, while Chile, Argentina and others were developing their industries, Peruvian Indians were and are until now chewing the coca leaves. It's true, now the Peruvian government is more Cholo than ever but everything the new cholos do it's to get their hands on coca production, dealing and export. Where are Peruvian (Cholo, Indian) factories, industry, science and development? What do we export?

“Peru is a beggar sitting on a gold bench” So said Italian Naturalist Antonio Raimondo in the 19th century and it’s sometimes how Peruvians describe themselves.


Funny that you use that line. Because I can say exactly the same to you

While us "lazy indians" were "resting our butts out" (according to you) , what did you, the ruling class of Peru did? What did you do while having all the power for more than 150 years? Where are the factories, where is the industry? science and development? are we already a 1rst world country or have we ever been>? what kind of country did you build when having all the power for so long? NOthing? You people must be FIRED!

at least we "indians" have an excuse, we were put down by you. What is your excuse?
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby SmartKitty » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:32 pm

Hitoruna wrote:Funny that you use that line. Because I can say exactly the same to you

While us "lazy indians" were "resting our butts out" (according to you) , what did you, the ruling class of Peru did? What did you do while having all the power for more than 150 years? Where are the factories, where is the industry? science and development? are we already a 1rst world country or have we ever been>? what kind of country did you build when having all the power for so long? NOthing? You people must be FIRED!

at least we "indians" have an excuse, we were put down by you. What is your excuse?

Ha, I'm not the ruling class. The ruling class, Spanish Conquistadors brought to Peru catholic religion, inquisition, cows, horses, metal and arm technology, agriculture (before Velasco Alvarado reform), got from Peru gold, and more gold ... built a colony. It' s not to make the development in Peru, a colony means to take everything worth to take to the Madre Patria.

And from 1879, Peruvian Independence, everything we hear is excuses. What did you do from 1879?
My name is Fortunata Carhuapoma, pies de plomo. I'm a modest serrano girl in polleras and alpargatas.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:50 pm

SmartKitty wrote:Ha, I'm not the ruling class. The ruling class, Spanish Conquistadors brought to Peru catholic religion, inquisition, cows, horses, metal and arm technology, agriculture (before Velasco Alvarado reform), got from Peru gold, and more gold ... built a colony. It' s not to make the development in Peru, a colony means to take everything worth to take to the Madre Patria.

And from 1879, Peruvian Independence, everything we hear is excuses. What did you do from 1879?


that is EXACTLY what I am asking. Who cares about the colony and the spaniards. What did the ruling class of Peru do since 1821? (not 1879) Nothing! just excuses! typical of criollos and their "hidalgo" ways. That question should not be directed to the indians, after all we ddidnt run this country since "1879!. the majority were serfs!. Your question should be directed to the ruling class.

what did >I< or my family do since 1879? Well just because you asked and not to brag but for starters, my father came with one trouser and one shirt to Lima, worked carrying heavy bags, studied in a good university in Lima and became what is now middle class, give us an education, and I got in a top world university. and thanks to my work well I am going for a week vacation to Rome and Venice. Not bad for an indian uh?
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby argidd » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:11 pm

SmartKitty wrote:
falconagain wrote:This article about Spanish immigration shows that things have not changed as of today.

"Cubans, Argentian and Peruvian are the most educated inmigrants; Chinese, Rumanian
and Bulgarain are the most entrepeneurial"

08/06/2008

http://elconfidencialdigital.com/mundo/ ... jeto=17323

Yes, the best Peruvian people is abandoning Peru, no development, no jobs, no place for educated people, crooks, drugs, crime everywhere, starting from the highest government level. It's sad.


So, if the best Peruvians are abandoning Peru, what are you, a foreigner doing in (what you apparently consider) such a horrible country? Wouldn't you be doing better where there aren't that many crooks, narcos, cholos, etc.?
Regards,

Argidd

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