Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

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Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:20 pm

Land prices
In the last ten years the land in Lima have grown tenfold in value, but the trend today is those prices to stabilize, he said.

"Before the square meter in the Pardo Avenue (Miraflores) stood at US $300, now comes to US $3000; in the case of the Golf, the price has risen from $1000 to $10,000; with respect to Lynx, price has gone from $200 to $ 2000 ", said the general manager of developer of the Pacific.


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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby chi chi » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:11 pm

Peru no longer is a cheap country to live in.

Everything is getting expensive.

Cities are growing as well.

Houses are no longer built in central Lima. They only build appartments. And when a house gets sold, it will be demolished and appartments are built on the plot.

Prices not only have gone up a lot in Lima but also in the provinces.

Tarapoto was used to be one of the cheapest cities to live in. I am surprised what price people dare to ask for a rundown home. Commercial spaces are just as expensive as in Lima nowadays.
On the other hand, the cities has been modernising a lot. Most streets are paved and nice shops and restaurants are popping up.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:03 am

Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby teamoperu » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:57 pm

Yet real estate statistics are gleaned from what has been paid, hence people have been paying these prices, right?
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:51 pm

tupacperu wrote:Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.



With two salaries, a twenty-year mortgage, and good birth control. :)

Middle class salaries are around $1200 dollars a month, so times two is $2400. Interest on a $75000 loan is roughly $800 a month, around one-third of the couple's earnings. That's a tight squeeze, but it's not impossible.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Sergio Bernales » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:00 pm

[quote="chi chi"]Peru no longer is a cheap country to live in.

Everything is getting expensive.

Cities are growing as well.

Houses are no longer built in central Lima. They only build appartments. And when a house gets sold, it will be demolished and appartments are built on the plot.
quote]

That's true to a point, Chi Chi, but some streets and districts have zoning laws, where you can't build more than three stories high, so knocking down houses and building tiny apartment blocks isn't feasible. Usually, in these areas, small bungalows are knocked down to put up larger houses. My mother-in-law lives in a very nice street in San Borja, where several new two and three- storey houses have gone up on land that was once used for small businesses. I'm sure it's true that had the zoning laws allowed it, they would have built apartment blocks instead, but there are still a lot of new houses going up in Lima, - usually for well-off people - but even in San Isidro and Miraflores there is the occasional house going up, especially around Aurora and San Antonio.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:12 pm

Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.



With two salaries, a twenty-year mortgage, and good birth control. :)

Middle class salaries are around $1200 dollars a month, so times two is $2400. Interest on a $75000 loan is roughly $800 a month, around one-third of the couple's earnings. That's a tight squeeze, but it's not impossible.


That would be assuming that both parties are single or married professionals and making $1200 each per month with no kids :).

I was calculating $660.00-$800.00 as set out by the Arellano Marketing Research and El Correo

The 2012-2013 Work Plan: Growing up with the growing. Business opportunities in the new middle class argues that the level of average Middla Class incomes is S/.1.850, while traditional records S/.2.070 wages, the El Correo reported.

Middle Class has S/.1.850 monthly income on average and are 39% of the country's middle class, a study of Arellano Marketing Research.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Sergio Bernales » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:32 pm

tupacperu wrote:
Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.



With two salaries, a twenty-year mortgage, and good birth control. :)

Middle class salaries are around $1200 dollars a month, so times two is $2400. Interest on a $75000 loan is roughly $800 a month, around one-third of the couple's earnings. That's a tight squeeze, but it's not impossible.


That would be assuming that both parties are single or married professionals and making $1200 each per month with no kids :).

I was calculating $660.00-$800.00 as set out by the Arellano Marketing Research and El Correo

The 2012-2013 Work Plan: Growing up with the growing. Business opportunities in the new middle class argues that the level of average Middla Class incomes is S/.1.850, while traditional records S/.2.070 wages, the El Correo reported.

Middle Class has S/.1.850 monthly income on average and are 39% of the country's middle class, a study of Arellano Marketing Research.


Hi Tupac, I'd say your figures look good, but there's one other thing to take into account and that is extended family. Even relatively small apartments can be filled with three generations who may have contributed to the mortgage or the deposit. My wife has several friends and employees who have bought apartments and often siblings or parents come to live and all share the high cost of the mortgage.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:50 pm

Luck and Birth control.. I like that Alan: Here is another take...

POVERTY AND MISERY IN THE NEW MIDDLE CLASS
http://diario16.pe/columnista/12/juan-i ... lase-media
I believe in the figures say there is a tremendous growth of the middle class if this is measured by family income is perceived today in every home. The income of each household have increased.

I think the figures used in other indicators such as electrical appliances are there in the new middle class. Artifacts in each household have multiplied.

I think when we say that the phenomenon is national and that this development is given without any distinction along and across the country. Every town in the country has people and families with higher incomes and more artifacts.

Nevertheless , I think there is something that is not saying enough . These indicators do not mean much if it does not contrast with the cash availability of the new middle class.

I mean, what is not measured is the level of debt of this new middle class , the price of access to credit and cash availability for the day.

What I 've watched is that a significant portion of this new middle class has bought and are buying their stuff with credit at exorbitantly high rates of interest.

Therefore, what one buys 100 cash , others , those who buy the credits , just paid 200 soles or more. That is, the income of many families in the new (and old ) middle class could , in many cases, worth half of what he says simply because purchase on return credit.

Many have bought their new gadgets on credit. They have the device before they had the money to pay . So the devices are expensive and are available while paying cash is reduced significantly.

So it is not only expensive to buy , but also while they are paying almost no money available for day to day. And not having to turn to get cash from their credit cards and end up going into a talespin that makes them miserable.

You wonder why there is so much anger today in Peru even though many are making more ? Why are we not happier Peruvians if we have more gadgets ? Because you can not be happy with the pressure of payments.

There is one more thing. The public utilities function so badly that in Peru ,, the new middle class just may abandon them . And so, they begin to pay 170, 200, 250 soles or more per child in the small private school in the neighborhood.

Anyway, I could go on with examples, but I have a question : who are today the main enemies of the new middle class apart from themselves and their lack of financial literacy ? My response : banks and trading houses , which induce buy the most expensive financial tools, and the state, which does not provide good public services
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby chi chi » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:50 pm

tupacperu wrote:You wonder why there is so much anger today in Peru even though many are making more ? Why are we not happier Peruvians if we have more gadgets ? Because you can not be happy with the pressure of payments.

Anyway, I could go on with examples, but I have a question : who are today the main enemies of the new middle class apart from themselves and their lack of financial literacy ? My response : banks and trading houses , which induce buy the most expensive financial tools, and the state, which does not provide good public services


I think often it's a matter of ''keeping up with the Joneses'' mentality within the middle class. They make a bit more money than the average Joe and want to show that off.
When a neighboor, colleage or friend buys a new stereo, flat screen TV, laptop, designer clothes or goes on a city trip...they have to do that too. Just to keep up with their ''social class' in order not to be looked down upon.

I think this kind of attitude merely exits within the younger middle class that want to keep up with all the newest gadgets.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby panman » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:08 pm

I think often it's a matter of ''keeping up with the Joneses'' mentality within the middle class. They make a bit more money than the average Joe and want to show that off.
When a neighboor, colleage or friend buys a new stereo, flat screen TV, laptop, designer clothes or goes on a city trip...they have to do that too. Just to keep up with their ''social class' in order not to be looked down upon.

I think this kind of attitude merely exits within the younger middle class that want to keep up with all the newest gadgets.[/quote]
These are the types who, because they have to have a 4x4 to keep up with the neighbors buy a Ssangyong Rodius on credit.
They'd really love to have bought a BMW, Mercedes or Audi just like the Joneses, but just can't afford it.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby 28°N 82°W » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:01 pm

tupacperu wrote:Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.



You could easily be describing the cost of living vs. pay in the U.S.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:11 pm

tupacperu wrote:
Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.



With two salaries, a twenty-year mortgage, and good birth control. :)

Middle class salaries are around $1200 dollars a month, so times two is $2400. Interest on a $75000 loan is roughly $800 a month, around one-third of the couple's earnings. That's a tight squeeze, but it's not impossible.


That would be assuming that both parties are single or married professionals and making $1200 each per month with no kids :).

I was calculating $660.00-$800.00 as set out by the Arellano Marketing Research and El Correo

The 2012-2013 Work Plan: Growing up with the growing. Business opportunities in the new middle class argues that the level of average Middla Class incomes is S/.1.850, while traditional records S/.2.070 wages, the El Correo reported.

Middle Class has S/.1.850 monthly income on average and are 39% of the country's middle class, a study of Arellano Marketing Research.



Sorry.. i wrote dollars when I meant soles. (S./2400 soles per month), which i think is a good average for Lima. Does the Arrellano study refer to Lima, or Peru as a whole? Important point, since real estate is going to be cheaper in provincias.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby chi chi » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:34 pm

Narcotraffica is big business in Peru and a lot of that dirty money is launderd trough the property market.

Colombia is no longer the number one cocaine producer. Peru is now the mayor cocaine producer in the world.

Every day loads of 'mulas' got caught at Lima airport. But only a small percentate got caught. Most cocainesmugglers succesfully smuggle their haul to Europe and the US.

They make a few trips and they immeditaly become part of the middle class in Peru. They buy a nice flat filled with designer furniture and top of the range electronics and they no longer have to worry about money again.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:25 pm

chi chi wrote:Narcotraffica is big business in Peru and a lot of that dirty money is launderd trough the property market.

Colombia is no longer the number one cocaine producer. Peru is now the mayor cocaine producer in the world.

Every day loads of 'mulas' got caught at Lima airport. But only a small percentate got caught. Most cocainesmugglers succesfully smuggle their haul to Europe and the US.

They make a few trips and they immeditaly become part of the middle class in Peru. They buy a nice flat filled with designer furniture and top of the range electronics and they no longer have to worry about money again.


You are right, it's important, but the impact is over exagerated. The drug industry supposedly brings in about 1 billion a year in Peru, but that is only one-half of one percent of the total economy. Apparently illegal gold mining brings in twice that amount (not to mention the money lost in missed taxation). And to put both of those in perspective, the drug trade is worth roughly as much as the coffee trade (this past year is an anomaly, due to plague afecting coffee crops) and only igual to roughtly one fourth of total agricultural production. So yes, the drug trade is important, and is inflicts a lot of damage on the integrity of the system due to it's inherent nature to corrupt officials, but the economic impact isn't so dramatic.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:41 am

Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:
Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.



With two salaries, a twenty-year mortgage, and good birth control. :)

Middle class salaries are around $1200 dollars a month, so times two is $2400. Interest on a $75000 loan is roughly $800 a month, around one-third of the couple's earnings. That's a tight squeeze, but it's not impossible.


That would be assuming that both parties are single or married professionals and making $1200 each per month with no kids :).

I was calculating $660.00-$800.00 as set out by the Arellano Marketing Research and El Correo

The 2012-2013 Work Plan: Growing up with the growing. Business opportunities in the new middle class argues that the level of average Middla Class incomes is S/.1.850, while traditional records S/.2.070 wages, the El Correo reported.

Middle Class has S/.1.850 monthly income on average and are 39% of the country's middle class, a study of Arellano Marketing Research.



Sorry.. i wrote dollars when I meant soles. (S./2400 soles per month), which i think is a good average for Lima. Does the Arrellano study refer to Lima, or Peru as a whole? Important point, since real estate is going to be cheaper in provincias.


All of Peru..
True, but the pay is also lower in the Provinces and job opportunity scarce
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:52 am

Sergio Bernales wrote:
tupacperu wrote:
Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:Funny thing, more people have a job, but the pay has not increased at the pace of the economy.
Scratching my head as to how even the middle class pays for an apartment $75000+. The pay is not keeping up with the cost of living.



With two salaries, a twenty-year mortgage, and good birth control. :)

Middle class salaries are around $1200 dollars a month, so times two is $2400. Interest on a $75000 loan is roughly $800 a month, around one-third of the couple's earnings. That's a tight squeeze, but it's not impossible.


That would be assuming that both parties are single or married professionals and making $1200 each per month with no kids :).

I was calculating $660.00-$800.00 as set out by the Arellano Marketing Research and El Correo

The 2012-2013 Work Plan: Growing up with the growing. Business opportunities in the new middle class argues that the level of average Middle Class incomes is S/.1.850, while traditional records S/.2.070 wages, the El Correo reported.

Middle Class has S/.1.850 monthly income on average and are 39% of the country's middle class, a study of Arellano Marketing Research.


Hi Tupac, I'd say your figures look good, but there's one other thing to take into account and that is extended family. Even relatively small apartments can be filled with three generations who may have contributed to the mortgage or the deposit. My wife has several friends and employees who have bought apartments and often siblings or parents come to live and all share the high cost of the mortgage.



I've taken that into account extended family, various members of my wife's family lives in an extended family situations, many sharing the load. Most are teachers and things are always tight.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:54 am

Alan wrote:
chi chi wrote:Narcotraffica is big business in Peru and a lot of that dirty money is launderd trough the property market.

Colombia is no longer the number one cocaine producer. Peru is now the mayor cocaine producer in the world.

Every day loads of 'mulas' got caught at Lima airport. But only a small percentate got caught. Most cocainesmugglers succesfully smuggle their haul to Europe and the US.

They make a few trips and they immeditaly become part of the middle class in Peru. They buy a nice flat filled with designer furniture and top of the range electronics and they no longer have to worry about money again.


You are right, it's important, but the impact is over exagerated. The drug industry supposedly brings in about 1 billion a year in Peru, but that is only one-half of one percent of the total economy. Apparently illegal gold mining brings in twice that amount (not to mention the money lost in missed taxation). And to put both of those in perspective, the drug trade is worth roughly as much as the coffee trade (this past year is an anomaly, due to plague affecting coffee crops) and only igual to roughtly one fourth of total agricultural production. So yes, the drug trade is important, and is inflicts a lot of damage on the integrity of the system due to it's inherent nature to corrupt officials, but the economic impact isn't so dramatic.


Money Laundering is even bigger problem and Peruvian banks have not taken a strong position. I've seen where Pre-Sales apartments are sold out even before they are open to the public. Later to be sold to the public by the new owner (putting the drug money back in the systems).
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:16 am

tupacperu wrote:
Alan wrote:
chi chi wrote:Narcotraffica is big business in Peru and a lot of that dirty money is launderd trough the property market.

Colombia is no longer the number one cocaine producer. Peru is now the mayor cocaine producer in the world.

Every day loads of 'mulas' got caught at Lima airport. But only a small percentate got caught. Most cocainesmugglers succesfully smuggle their haul to Europe and the US.

They make a few trips and they immeditaly become part of the middle class in Peru. They buy a nice flat filled with designer furniture and top of the range electronics and they no longer have to worry about money again.


You are right, it's important, but the impact is over exagerated. The drug industry supposedly brings in about 1 billion a year in Peru, but that is only one-half of one percent of the total economy. Apparently illegal gold mining brings in twice that amount (not to mention the money lost in missed taxation). And to put both of those in perspective, the drug trade is worth roughly as much as the coffee trade (this past year is an anomaly, due to plague affecting coffee crops) and only igual to roughtly one fourth of total agricultural production. So yes, the drug trade is important, and is inflicts a lot of damage on the integrity of the system due to it's inherent nature to corrupt officials, but the economic impact isn't so dramatic.


Money Laundering is even bigger problem and Peruvian banks have not taken a strong position. I've seen where Pre-Sales apartments are sold out even before they are open to the public. Later to be sold to the public by the new owner (putting the drug money back in the systems).


hi tupac

I have heard this a couple times, but I am not sure how it is laundering? Once those apartments are bought in bulk, they are registered in Registros Publicos, and the buyer needs to sign off with a declaracion jurada where the money comes from. While it might be from an elicit source, he (or she) takes a pretty big risk by exposing him or herself to government oversight twice.

Are Peruvian banks involved in laundering.. many say yes .. but ofter with foreign money coming in. Peru is a good location for this since there it is so easy to work with dollars.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby TShadow » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:58 pm

Once those apartments are bought in bulk, they are registered in Registros Publicos, and the buyer needs to sign off with a declaracion jurada where the money comes from


That is not a problem. There are many ways around to hide the real source of the money. I saw it many times how they do it. It works the same way as in Europe.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:07 pm

TShadow wrote:
Once those apartments are bought in bulk, they are registered in Registros Publicos, and the buyer needs to sign off with a declaracion jurada where the money comes from


That is not a problem. There are many ways around to hide the real source of the money. I saw it many times how they do it. It works the same way as in Europe.


Right.. so if you can already hide the real source of the money, why complicate things further by buying property only to sell it again?
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Sergio Bernales » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:11 pm

I've read a lot of laundered money goes through the casinos, so whether there are casino owners/investors also involved in real estate might be interesting to investigate. Although if you investigate too closely you might end up sleeping with the fishes.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Sergio Bernales » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:20 pm

And here's a whole new take on money laundering. I should maybe also post this in Alan's thread on hand shaking.

http://www.economist.com/news/science-a ... oying-them
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby chi chi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:57 pm

Sergio Bernales wrote:I've read a lot of laundered money goes through the casinos, so whether there are casino owners/investors also involved in real estate might be interesting to investigate. Although if you investigate too closely you might end up sleeping with the fishes.


Those casinos should be closed. They are hotbeds for crime. The prey on vulnerable people. There's a huge problem with gambling addicts. Many of the steal or rob people just to get money to gamble. Gambling causes mental problems and destroys people their lives.

I don't understand that drugs is illegal but gambling isn't.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby TShadow » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:17 pm

Those casinos should be closed. They are hotbeds for crime. The prey on vulnerable people. There's a huge problem with gambling addicts. Many of the steal or rob people just to get money to gamble. Gambling causes mental problems and destroys people their lives.


I agree with that.

I don't understand that drugs is illegal but gambling isn't.


Me neither, but the state gets a lot of cash from it. Its a double morality, alcohol, smoking, gambling are allowed and all can do havoc to your and others life.

Right.. so if you can already hide the real source of the money, why complicate things further by buying property only to sell it again?


Alan, it's basically to clean the money. Toledo could tell you something about that matter. The laws of the different countries have many holes. In Europe they are trying to close them, but here they are wide open.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alpineprince » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:52 pm

chi chi wrote:
Sergio Bernales wrote:I've read a lot of laundered money goes through the casinos, so whether there are casino owners/investors also involved in real estate might be interesting to investigate. Although if you investigate too closely you might end up sleeping with the fishes.


Those casinos should be closed. They are hotbeds for crime. The prey on vulnerable people. There's a huge problem with gambling addicts. Many of the steal or rob people just to get money to gamble. Gambling causes mental problems and destroys people their lives.

I don't understand that drugs is illegal but gambling isn't.

And masturbation will make you go blind!
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby TShadow » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:46 am

And masturbation will make you go blind!


Yes must be true, seeing so many blind people around.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:39 pm

Alan wrote:
TShadow wrote:
Once those apartments are bought in bulk, they are registered in Registros Publicos, and the buyer needs to sign off with a declaracion jurada where the money comes from


That is not a problem. There are many ways around to hide the real source of the money. I saw it many times how they do it. It works the same way as in Europe.


Right.. so if you can already hide the real source of the money, why complicate things further by buying property only to sell it again?


Is this only for a bulk buy? I registered my property and did not have to sign the declaration.

The point of money laundering to to legitimize the currency. The end result is to liquidate and wind up with accounts in the bank. I guess Toledo got away with it (Million dollar properties), anyone can swear to it, but it does not become an issue until you are caught.

It's happening in real estate and construction:


Peru This Week:
Peru holds forum on money laundering prevention
August 27, 2013

The Andina news agency has reported that Peru is currently hosting an international forum on preventing money laundering and terrorist financing with the participation of experts from Latin American and the United States.

The event was organized by Peru’s Association of Microfinance Institutions (Asomif Peru) and the Center of Studies on Economic and Corporate Criminal Law (CEDPE), takes place on August 27-28 at NM Lima Hotel in the capital city.

Experts are coming from neighboring Brazil, Colombia and from the U.S. They will discuss the implementation of a system to prevent and combat money laundering in such diverse sectors as real estate, construction, casinos, mining and stock market.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:53 pm

Peru Has Zero Current Convictions for Money Laundering: Govt (as of 2 years ago)

Written by Edward Fox Friday, 03 February 2012
Peru Has Zero Current Convictions for Money Laundering: Govt
Peru's justice minister, Juan Jimenez, vowed to increase the government's efforts against money laundering after revealing that the country currently has no standing convictions for money laundering.

Jimenez stated that of the roughly 120 cases investigated by Peru's Financial Intelligence Unit (UIF) and the country's Superintendent for Banking and Insurance (SBS), only four had resulted in judicial proceedings. "Currently there is no person convicted of an offense of money laundering in Peru," Jimenez said, reports La Republica.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:00 pm

tupacperu wrote:

Is this only for a bulk buy? I registered my property and did not have to sign the declaration.


I was involved in the sale of a one-bedroom apartment recently. The notary asked both the buyer and seller to sign declarations. Maybe this is a new requirement.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby TShadow » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:20 pm

The notary asked both the buyer and seller to sign declarations. Maybe this is a new requirement.


How were this declarations? In Family they recently bought some ground and flats and I asked them about it. There were no documents to sign concerning the origin of their money.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:12 am

It was a one page document asking the buyer the origin of the money (with boxes to tick) and the seller the origen of the property, ex. purchase, inheritance, etc.

That, identification number, and signature. My take is that a signed, sworn statement raises the stakes for anyone who is lying.

Maybe there is a price floor before these are requested? In this case the sale was of over $100,000.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby mirafloresrent » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:01 pm

Alan wrote:It was a one page document asking the buyer the origin of the money (with boxes to tick) and the seller the origen of the property, ex. purchase, inheritance, etc.

That, identification number, and signature. My take is that a signed, sworn statement raises the stakes for anyone who is lying.

Maybe there is a price floor before these are requested? In this case the sale was of over $100,000.


Experienced the same as Alan. They made be sign a "declaracion jurada" asking the origin of the money. If there is a floor level it is quite low as the apartment I bought was S/144000
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby TShadow » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:11 pm

Were they Peruvians? The flats they bought here were all over $250.000

I did find in Internet something about a 'Declaración de Origen de Fondos', but if they handle it like with Toledo and many others, then I doubt it will be very useful.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby chi chi » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:23 pm

[quote="TShadow"]Were they Peruvians? The flats they bought here were all over $250.000

I did find in Internet something about a 'Declaración de Origen de Fondos', but if they handle it like with Toledo and many others, then I doubt it will be very useful.[/quote

That document that you have to sign is useless. It's only a declaration. It's still doesn't proof that the money came from legitimate sources.

When I sold a home 3 years ago, the buyer paid me in cash. When I deposited the money in my account, I filled out on that declaration that the money came from the sale of a property but wasn't asked for proof of that.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:36 pm

chi chi wrote:
TShadow wrote:Were they Peruvians? The flats they bought here were all over $250.000

I did find in Internet something about a 'Declaración de Origen de Fondos', but if they handle it like with Toledo and many others, then I doubt it will be very useful.[/quote

That document that you have to sign is useless. It's only a declaration. It's still doesn't proof that the money came from legitimate sources.

When I sold a home 3 years ago, the buyer paid me in cash. When I deposited the money in my account, I filled out on that declaration that the money came from the sale of a property but wasn't asked for proof of that.


That´s right, it's not proof, but the purspose is that it raises the stakes for liars, since they are lying on a sworn document. Does that work? I dunno.. like someone else suggested, maybe it's better to ask a few of our ex-presidents. :oops:
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby fanning » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:10 pm

These sworn statements actually make life a lot less burocratic.
As an employer for example you have to declare to Sunat the actual status of the dependent wifes and children of your employees.
Instead that the employees have to generate expensive burocratic notary papers in which the proof that they live together with their girlfriend, they simply make a sworn statement.
This is sufficient for an employer, and for Sunat, BUT if the employee lied on his sworn statement, then the employee is in trouble, and not the employee.

To make a comparison with one-way tickets. It is like you swear to leave the country even if you bought a one way ticket. And if you don't, then the airline don't get the multa, but YOU, because you swore to leave, and you didn't. But it will make live easier to travel to Peru on a one way ticket with just a sworn declaration ( ojo, this is not actually the case, it is just an example in which sworn statements could make life in Peru less burocratic )
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby chi chi » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:55 am

fanning wrote:To make a comparison with one-way tickets. It is like you swear to leave the country even if you bought a one way ticket. And if you don't, then the airline don't get the multa, but YOU, because you swore to leave, and you didn't. But it will make live easier to travel to Peru on a one way ticket with just a sworn declaration ( ojo, this is not actually the case, it is just an example in which sworn statements could make life in Peru less burocratic )


Which multa? You mean the $1 you are supposed to pay when you overstay? Most overstayers don't pay that, they just pay a negotiable propina.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby TShadow » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:54 am

BUT if the employee lied on his sworn statement, then the employee is in trouble, and not the employee.


This might work out in USA and Europe, but Peru is still very far away from something called civil consciousness. The best examples are sitting in the congress.

This regretfully includes some parts of Italy which you can call a country with latin mentality, and the result is in every ones eyes.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby Alan » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:36 pm

chi chi wrote:

Which multa? You mean the $1 you are supposed to pay when you overstay? Most overstayers don't pay that, they just pay a negotiable propina.


And you base this supposition on??
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby teamoperu » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:46 am

Alan wrote:
chi chi wrote:

Which multa? You mean the $1 you are supposed to pay when you overstay? Most overstayers don't pay that, they just pay a negotiable propina.


And you base this supposition on??


Excellent question. I too would like to know the answer.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby chi chi » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:08 pm

teamoperu wrote:
Alan wrote:
chi chi wrote:

Which multa? You mean the $1 you are supposed to pay when you overstay? Most overstayers don't pay that, they just pay a negotiable propina.


And you base this supposition on??


Excellent question. I too would like to know the answer.


Everything is negotiable in Peru. From the tomatoes you buy at the mercado and getting your shoes shined on the street.
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby teamoperu » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:03 pm

Negotiating a price is of a tomato a far cry from bribery.

But anyway, the part I was interested in hearing a possible explanation, if one is even possible, is you said “Most overstayers don't pay that, they just pay a negotiable propina.” How exactly would you know what most overstayers do or do not do?
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Re: Price of Land in Lima rose tenfold in 10 years

Postby tupacperu » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:26 pm

Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:

Is this only for a bulk buy? I registered my property and did not have to sign the declaration.


I was involved in the sale of a one-bedroom apartment recently. The notary asked both the buyer and seller to sign declarations. Maybe this is a new requirement.


Criminals don't play by the book. To sign a declaration and to show evidence of funds are very different. Similar to what we call LIAR's Loans (stated income) :)

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