Welfare in Belgium

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adrian Thorne
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby adrian Thorne » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:14 pm

I think should provide a different viewpoint. I quote.
WHEREVER YOU ARE FROM
Postby euroman » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:12 pm

Guys,
wherever part of the world you are from. Are you intending to stay in Peru or ever going back to your country.

I am staying here. I have my own (very small) business.
I dont make a lot of money but just enough to live but I am happy here.
In Europe, I had a lot of stress and just working to pay the bills.
I also think that it would be too difficult for my wife to live in Europe.


I think it is possible his wife is now under three feet of concrete, supporting the washing machine and a claim has been made for her benefits.


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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:17 am

Yes, that is the classic problem with lying a lot, trying to keep all the lies straight. Likely there are a lot of humorous contradictions, if we go back. What is interesting is to see it in real life and wonder scientifically what personality weakness is displayed by doing it pathologically.

And to continue to get attention, the stories have to become more fabulous (buying a house to stay in for infrequent shopping trips to the big city) or more and more controversial and argumentative. “Upon tasting the spotlight, it becomes self-reinforcing and the lies grow bigger each time just to keep on being the center of attention.” But what is to be gained, why do it? “Insecurity. Low self esteem is one of the biggest reasons why people become pathological liars. Whether they consciously recognize it or not, a pathological liar feels that he is not important enough as they are so they must make up accomplishments or events to position themselves as worthy.”
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:36 am

All those wellfare bashers will running towards the wellfare office if they also could get 1260 euros a month.

I can't imagine that they are slaving themselves out all day for a boss who treats them like trash and then get paid a lousy Peruvian wage because the love it.

I think that they don't claim benefits because unfortunately their wellfare claim has been unsuccesfull because they probably didn't work enough days in their life to be eligible for claiming benefits. Or they have been working off the record getting paid cash under the table to avoid paying social security contributions and they now get punished for that.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:37 pm

chi chi wrote:All those wellfare bashers will running towards the wellfare office if they also could get 1260 euros a month.

I can't imagine that they are slaving themselves out all day for a boss who treats them like trash and then get paid a lousy Peruvian wage because the love it.

I think that they don't claim benefits because unfortunately their wellfare claim has been unsuccesfull because they probably didn't work enough days in their life to be eligible for claiming benefits. Or they have been working off the record getting paid cash under the table to avoid paying social security contributions and they now get punished for that.


Well, I think you think wrong. But I don't know any welfare bashers. I have heard about welfare cheaters.

Saw a great one liner the other day, I'll share it with you: "Socialism works until you run out of other peoples money."
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:31 pm

teamoperu wrote:Saw a great one liner the other day, I'll share it with you: "Socialism works until you run out of other peoples money."


I was used to have this bumper sticker on my car...


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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:32 pm

I think this thread has taken a change in direction and is no longer about welfare in Belgium, or anywhere else. I don't believe anyone on this thread actually receives welfare. There's certainly no Socialists on the thread. I'm not even sure there's anyone from Belgium (excepting KenBE) on this thread, though what's to be gained from lying about one's nationality is beyond me. I'm at the point where I believe there's a lot of BS, not just in this thread, but all over this forum, which is a shame because someone new here looking for accurate information may not know the difference between accurate info and someone telling tall tales who's just looking for attention. I'm thinking we're all getting our legs pulled and there's really not much to discuss about welfare anymore - it's pretty much all been said, but carry on should anyone have the interest. Since the subject has changed, perhaps it's best to start a new thread reflecting this change in subject.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby SilverbackPeru » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:17 pm

Out of curiousity how do Americans feel about the European welfare systems? I sometimes get the impression that a large amount think of it as something pretty evil, especially the those that lean to the right. Just from listening to half the rubbish that gets mentioned on news channels like Fox and the Bill O'Reiley show when they slate socialism. Yes communist socialism doesn't work but democratic socialism seems to be getting along just fine without any signs of failing for the last 60 years.

I'm having a family health crisis at the moment and i thank god for the country i'm from as i wouldn't even like to think about how much the medical bills would cost and how many family members would have to sell their homes to care for one family member who it looked like would need hospital care for the rest of her life. How would 40 plus years of hospital care be paid for in the States or in Peru? Luckly it looks like it's going to work out ok and the family member is on the road to recovery, basically because i'm lucky to come from a country that cares for it's people. Being from there means i would never EVER have to worry about poverty, or housing, education or medical problems and it's absolutely brilliant!

There is some problems with people who just stay on welfare and don't look for work and some crazy EU laws at the moment which allows people from lesser European countries and abroad come and claim benefits, but hopefully a few years of the Tories being in charge will sort these problems out or reduce them. People who are on long term benefits are usually from poorer family who just need education and guidance to help them change too.

I'm not against the American system and i believe you should be rewarded for hard work, but i get the feeling from those who i talk to that the pendulum has swang too far towards big business in the States and that it has lost everything that America stood for, equality, freedom etc and it now represents what old Europe was of giant class divides and the have and have nots.

The fairness and equality you get in Western Europe is the main reason you'll see these countries in the top 10 lists of places to live for a good quality of life.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:18 am

SilverbackPeru wrote:Out of curiousity how do Americans feel about the European welfare systems? I sometimes get the impression that a large amount think of it as something pretty evil, especially the those that lean to the right. Just from listening to half the rubbish that gets mentioned on news channels like Fox and the Bill O'Reiley show when they slate socialism. Yes communist socialism doesn't work but democratic socialism seems to be getting along just fine without any signs of failing for the last 60 years.


I agree. The US is the only industrialized country in the world without a universal health care plan. I myself don't think the European healthcare system is evil, but something the US should strive to emulate. The US has swung to the right. The Government at this point works for business and the lobbyists who do their bidding. Campaigning and elections are all about fundraising. As Mittt Romney said, "corporations are people too, my friend." For me it's hard to tell the difference between the Dems and Repubs being that all the politicians are after $ and working for the same businesses. It's undeniable the swing to the right. Even with Obamacare, which is basically what the Republican right counter-proposed to the Democrats "Hillarycare" back in the early 90's. If Obamacare was okay for the right 20 years ago and isn't today it shows how far the US has swung to the right. The problem is that the system is solely profit based. Nothing wrong with making a profit, but certain things should be exempt from the profit motive, such as health care. The insurance companies get in the way to take their cut. I helped manage a national companies health insurance as my first "real job" when I was still in University. This company expanded by buying out companies and when they did they inherited their health plans. We were managing over 100 different health plans, each with it's own paperwork, rules, and bureaucracy. Not the most cost effective way to manage health care. A single payer system would cut administrative costs, making the whole system more efficient and affordable. The people in the country who favor a national health care system generally are against people who would take advantage of the system. No one wants to be taken for a ride. Clinton and the Democrats moved to the right and changed "welfare as we now it," requiring recipients to work a minimum of hours (I believe 20) in order to continue receiving benefits. I'd have no problem requiring people to contribute a portion of their time to continue receiving public assistance. If not in the private sector by volunteering at a hospital, educational program, public works, etc. so that they make a contribution to the society that is assisting them with benefits. If other countries decide to give benefits to their citizens without requiring a contribution, good for them, as long as the people paying for it don't mind. But that's just one American's opinion. I'm sure there are people who would argue vehemently against what I just wrote and would accuse me of being un-American for even expressing such thoughts. How are they sure they are living in a free country unless they hear dissent?

A lot of the FOX News crowd doesn't know, or care to know, the difference between Communist Socialism and Democratic Socialism. To them it's all Socialism and they freak at the slightest thought of the word. They don't seem to mind that the Fire and Police Departments are socialized. I spent the better part of a year living on a Socialist commune in the woods of Oregon and it functioned fine. I left thinking that socialism and communism can work on a small scale but suffer when applied to a huge nation, such as the former USSR. There were minor problems on the commune, but they were more of a personal nature which is bound to happen when you have people living in close quarters. I myself was not a big fan of the numerous meetings and committees that seemed to take up a lot of time that I would have rather spent doing something else.

The only part of your post I would disagree with is where you say "Being from there means I would never EVER have to worry about poverty, housing, etc." Never say never. Governments can and do collapse, as do economies.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:16 am

ironchefchris wrote:The only part of your post I would disagree with is where you say "Being from there means I would never EVER have to worry about poverty, housing, etc." Never say never. Governments can and do collapse, as do economies.


The US goverment collapsed because they aren't socialist.
Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam and Russia are laughing at US for decades.

ISIS in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan are even laughing harder. ISIS of coure isn't an elected goverment. It's a dictatorship run by people that want to rule by using violence.
Last edited by chi chi on Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:50 am

The intent of welfare is to help people who are in need of help. Sadly, some people not in need of help see it as an opportunity to get something for nothing. They are dishonest and unethical, worthy of our contempt.

The ironic part is these cheaters laugh at us, the suckers who pay into the plans to keep it solvent. They cannot understand why everyone doesn't cheat like they do. They think they are the smart ones and we are the dupes. They have no idea how wrong they are.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:30 am

chi chi wrote:Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam and Russia are laughing with the little US for decades.

To paraphrase an old saying, 'Better they're laughing with US than at US.'
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:16 pm

teamoperu wrote:The intent of welfare is to help people who are in need of help. Sadly, some people not in need of help see it as an opportunity to get something for nothing. They are dishonest and unethical, worthy of our contempt.

The ironic part is these cheaters laugh at us, the suckers who pay into the plans to keep it solvent. They cannot understand why everyone doesn't cheat like they do. They think they are the smart ones and we are the dupes. They have no idea how wrong they are.


teamoperu, you can do something about it. During every election campaign, there are politicians that promise to cut or abolish wellfare benefits when they get elected. Vote for those politicians.

Why are you enoyed with people that claim benefits in Belgium? Aren't there people living of wellfare in your homecountry and aren't there people cheating the wellfare system in your country?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Thanks for the advice and the question. In answer, my statement holds true for any welfare cheat anywhere in the world. My sister-in-law, in my home country, is a senior investigator in charge of finding dishonest low-life welfare cheats. She is a tiger. I can introduce you if you wish. In some outrageous cases, she gets these despicable people charged with criminal fraud and they go to jail.

Now I have a question for you. The Belgium unemployment rules state one cannot work while collecting benefits. You previously stated you started a laundry in Lima. When pressed, you stated you put it in the name of your wife to scam the system. However, the rules state:

“An unemployed person should neither do any labour providing him with a wage or any other material advantage for him or his family. Work performed on behalf of others is presumed to be remunerated, unless the person concerned is able to prove the contrary”. So my question is how did you prove to Belgium officials that that the business in which you started and worked, even if in your wife's name, did not provide material advantage to you or to your family?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:19 pm

I doubt chi chi ever owned a laundry, collected welfare, dated hot women from Beverly Hills, worked as a flight attendant, travelled to many of the places he's claimed to have been, owns two homes, has knowledge of 7 year old hit men, is a member of a Socialist union/party, etc.. Of the numerous times he's been asked for details he's never come through or the story changes - Drove past yesterday and the place has gone downhill since they changed owners. They changed the name of the café and signage because of some gringo. Etc., etc.. Nothing suggests to me that his statements are meant to, or should be taken seriously. His ridiculous statements are made only to provoke and garner attention. We're being trolled.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:54 pm

teamoperu wrote:In some outrageous cases, she gets these despicable people charged with criminal fraud and they go to jail.


In Belgium, many people are better off in jail.
Unfortunately, people that are sentenced to less than 3 years don't have to go to jail to avoid overcrowding because jails are full.

3 free meals a day, free snacks all day, free gym, free medical care, free internet, free cable TV, free magazines and free newspapers, free leisure activities, (pooltables, volleyball, ping-pong, gym, running track, squash, footbal,...) no electricity bills or wáter bills to be paid for.

Cells (or better called rooms) have a PC, flatscreen TV, mini fridge, micro wave, nice curtains, nice wooden furniture. Prisoners in Belgium can paint and decorate their cell like they want too.

They are only locked up from 10pm to 6 am but for the rest, they can roam around the gardens or take part in leisure activities.

Food is excellent. The people in charge of the kitchens are qualified chefs. Prisoners can choose what they want to eat.
Religious and dietary requirements are always honoured.
During the festive season, like Easter, Christmas and New Year, special meals are prepared. Everybody deserves a nice piece of Turkey and Christmas pudding at Christmas. Why not?

Unlike in the US, prisoners in Belgium don't have to wear orange overalls. They can wear their own clothes and order new clothes over the internet. Of course, free laundry service is available to them.

Most prisoners also get day passes. A few times a year, they can leave the prison and go on a day trip. A day at the Belgian coasts for example. Free lunch in a nice restaurant and a free trainticket are part of the package.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:13 pm

Who cares? Not me. But you did not answer the question:

Now I have a question for you. The Belgium unemployment rules state one cannot work while collecting benefits. You previously stated you started a laundry in Lima. When pressed, you stated you put it in the name of your wife to scam the system. However, the rules state:

“An unemployed person should neither do any labour providing him with a wage or any other material advantage for him or his family. Work performed on behalf of others is presumed to be remunerated, unless the person concerned is able to prove the contrary”. So my question is how did you prove to Belgium officials that that the business in which you started and worked, even if in your wife's name, did not provide material advantage to you or to your family?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby captcosmic » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:55 pm

ironchefchris wrote:
SilverbackPeru wrote:Out of curiousity how do Americans feel about the European welfare systems? I sometimes get the impression that a large amount think of it as something pretty evil, especially the those that lean to the right. Just from listening to half the rubbish that gets mentioned on news channels like Fox and the Bill O'Reiley show when they slate socialism. Yes communist socialism doesn't work but democratic socialism seems to be getting along just fine without any signs of failing for the last 60 years.


I agree. The US is the only industrialized country in the world without a universal health care plan. I myself don't think the European healthcare system is evil, but something the US should strive to emulate. The US has swung to the right. The Government at this point works for business and the lobbyists who do their bidding. Campaigning and elections are all about fundraising. As Mittt Romney said, "corporations are people too, my friend." For me it's hard to tell the difference between the Dems and Repubs being that all the politicians are after $ and working for the same businesses. It's undeniable the swing to the right. Even with Obamacare, which is basically what the Republican right counter-proposed to the Democrats "Hillarycare" back in the early 90's. If Obamacare was okay for the right 20 years ago and isn't today it shows how far the US has swung to the right. The problem is that the system is solely profit based. Nothing wrong with making a profit, but certain things should be exempt from the profit motive, such as health care. The insurance companies get in the way to take their cut. I helped manage a national companies health insurance as my first "real job" when I was still in University. This company expanded by buying out companies and when they did they inherited their health plans. We were managing over 100 different health plans, each with it's own paperwork, rules, and bureaucracy. Not the most cost effective way to manage health care. A single payer system would cut administrative costs, making the whole system more efficient and affordable. The people in the country who favor a national health care system generally are against people who would take advantage of the system. No one wants to be taken for a ride. Clinton and the Democrats moved to the right and changed "welfare as we now it," requiring recipients to work a minimum of hours (I believe 20) in order to continue receiving benefits. I'd have no problem requiring people to contribute a portion of their time to continue receiving public assistance. If not in the private sector by volunteering at a hospital, educational program, public works, etc. so that they make a contribution to the society that is assisting them with benefits. If other countries decide to give benefits to their citizens without requiring a contribution, good for them, as long as the people paying for it don't mind. But that's just one American's opinion. I'm sure there are people who would argue vehemently against what I just wrote and would accuse me of being un-American for even expressing such thoughts. How are they sure they are living in a free country unless they hear dissent?

A lot of the FOX News crowd doesn't know, or care to know, the difference between Communist Socialism and Democratic Socialism. To them it's all Socialism and they freak at the slightest thought of the word. They don't seem to mind that the Fire and Police Departments are socialized. I spent the better part of a year living on a Socialist commune in the woods of Oregon and it functioned fine. I left thinking that socialism and communism can work on a small scale but suffer when applied to a huge nation, such as the former USSR. There were minor problems on the commune, but they were more of a personal nature which is bound to happen when you have people living in close quarters. I myself was not a big fan of the numerous meetings and committees that seemed to take up a lot of time that I would have rather spent doing something else.

The only part of your post I would disagree with is where you say "Being from there means I would never EVER have to worry about poverty, housing, etc." Never say never. Governments can and do collapse, as do economies.



I have to smile when you talk about the "Fox crowd" as some kind of off the wall uneducated folks. I think Foxes big appeal is that there is no one in today's free press questioning the government. Not the Big three, not CNN, the New York Times. only Fox. It has only been recently that anyone other than Fox has questioned even one thing the government has done in the past year, including the new healthcare act. Even with the major screw ups, coverage was lacking. Gone are the days of the of Deep Throat and reporters hot on the trail to uncover a scandal like Katrina or nonexistent WMDs. Now they sit in awe of the government at the experiences of their journalistic values. That is why Fox has grown in viewers. Not because they are so good journalistic, but because they are the only network questioning what the hell is going on with this most transparent government!

For my opinion on socialized medicine. It is fine and honorable to be able to take care of a population's. Healthcare. But it is a slippery slope once you go done the road to providing healthcare for everyone. Personally I pay enough taxes now. more than my fair share. And with 48% of the population not paying anything other than sales tax, it is a hard pill to swallow for the rest of the population that knows another entitlement program will be just that. I will continue to work for my medical plan, and of course, work for the others who don't have a medical plan. There are people who just will never work, and don't care. They feel ok with it, some one is paying for their lifestyle, medical bills, food and cell phones. A check magically shows up every month. They are not stealing, just taking what is rightfully theirs because the government says so. They feel entitled to free stuff. They tilt at windmills and say they are trying, but it is so easy to fall into that trap, and not really try. Just get your free stuff, because everyone else is doing it!

Government has an inability to do almost anything right. I do not know how they can run a medical program, run by the IRS no less. We are 17 trillion dollars in debt. Going after something as large as the medical system when we cant even pay our credit bills is not a good idea. That like going out and buying a new car before you get your credit cards paid off!! Maybe the Europeans have the right idea, but the US is not Europe. Both sides should have thought this through. Now it is law and some one is going to have to pay for it. Most folks like me are worried it will be most folks like me paying for the ones who aren't working for a living. It is not that the US has swung to the right on this and any other ideals. It is just the ones paying the taxes are waking up and letting their voice be heard for a change. Folks like that are usually busy supporting their family and do not have time to carry a picket sign. I do think the pendulum has swung and now the "right" has learned a hard lesson from the "left."

We have a fine example of someone taking advantage of their government's welfare system right here. And I think that worries many in the US.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:30 pm

teamoperu wrote:Thanks for the advice and the question. In answer, my statement holds true for any welfare cheat anywhere in the world. My sister-in-law, in my home country, is a senior investigator in charge of finding dishonest low-life welfare cheats. She is a tiger. I can introduce you if you wish. In some outrageous cases, she gets these despicable people charged with criminal fraud and they go to jail.


Thanks to those so called wellfare cheats, your sister in law has a job. If there weren't any wellfare cheats, she would be on the dole herself.

And if people go to jail after commiting wellfare fraud, then when they get released after a few weeks, they get wellfare benefits and free housing.

Why is your sister in law not going after those people ? ...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rkxxx.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -road.html

simply because of fear. If she hassles them then the retaliation well be severe.

So, going after the poor local who's in his fifties or disabled who's on a low unemployment and so now and then does an a job to support his meagre unemployment benefit makes those investigators feel like being a hero. They are just cowards
Why don't they burst into the home of a bunch of Romanians and tell them that the are going to cancel their benefits. But they won't do that. Out of fear.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:52 pm

chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:Thanks for the advice and the question. In answer, my statement holds true for any welfare cheat anywhere in the world. My sister-in-law, in my home country, is a senior investigator in charge of finding dishonest low-life welfare cheats. She is a tiger. I can introduce you if you wish. In some outrageous cases, she gets these despicable people charged with criminal fraud and they go to jail.


Thanks to those so called wellfare cheats, your sister in law has a job. If there weren't any wellfare cheats, she would be on the dole herself.

By that reasoning you're thanking those girls who tried to smuggle coke back into Europe because "thanks to those so called" smugglers the cops that nabbed them have jobs. By your "reasoning," if there weren't any drug smugglers the cops who look for drugs at the airport would be on the dole, or in the case of Peru, out on the street committing crime themselves according to your past posts where you suggest people either have jobs or are out committing crime. There's always going to be people trying to defraud the system, but I believe teamoperu's sister in law would most likely have other employment if there weren't welfare cheats to track down. It's not a zero-sum situation, where either she works as a welfare fraud investigator or she's on the dole, so I don't know why you'd make it out to be so. Think a little before posting.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:32 pm

chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:Thanks for the advice and the question. In answer, my statement holds true for any welfare cheat anywhere in the world. My sister-in-law, in my home country, is a senior investigator in charge of finding dishonest low-life welfare cheats. She is a tiger. I can introduce you if you wish. In some outrageous cases, she gets these despicable people charged with criminal fraud and they go to jail.


Thanks to those so called wellfare cheats, your sister in law has a job. If there weren't any wellfare cheats, she would be on the dole herself.

And if people go to jail after commiting wellfare fraud, then when they get released after a few weeks, they get wellfare benefits and free housing.

Why is your sister in law not going after those people ? ...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rkxxx.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -road.html

simply because of fear. If she hassles them then the retaliation well be severe.

So, going after the poor local who's in his fifties or disabled who's on a low unemployment and so now and then does an a job to support his meagre unemployment benefit makes those investigators feel like being a hero. They are just cowards
Why don't they burst into the home of a bunch of Romanians and tell them that the are going to cancel their benefits. But they won't do that. Out of fear.


Unlike someone, my sister-in-law invested her money and her sweat in her education. She is a well-educated, mentally well-balanced individual who has high ethical values. She has her pick of jobs. She gives back. She has received awards for her personal free time contributions to her community. She is so good at her job, they give her raises to keep her. She makes a ton of money. However, what she collects back and saves from catching dirty disgusting welfare cheats way more than pays her wages. There will always be dirty dishonest deadbeats looking to scam money at the expense of hard working folks, so there will always be people committed to putting the worst cases of abuse behind bars.

Now I still have an unanswered question for you. The Belgium unemployment rules state one cannot work while collecting benefits. You previously stated you started a laundry in Lima. When pressed, you stated you put it in the name of your wife to scam the system. However, the rules state:

“An unemployed person should neither do any labour providing him with a wage or any other material advantage for him or his family. Work performed on behalf of others is presumed to be remunerated, unless the person concerned is able to prove the contrary”. So my question is how did you prove to Belgium officials that that the business in which you started and worked, even if in your wife's name, did not provide material advantage to you or to your family?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:43 pm

captcosmic wrote:I have to smile when you talk about the "Fox crowd" as some kind of off the wall uneducated folks. I think Foxes big appeal is that there is no one in today's free press questioning the government. Not the Big three, not CNN, the New York Times. only Fox. It has only been recently that anyone other than Fox has questioned even one thing the government has done in the past year, including the new healthcare act. Even with the major screw ups, coverage was lacking. Gone are the days of the of Deep Throat and reporters hot on the trail to uncover a scandal like Katrina or nonexistent WMDs. Now they sit in awe of the government at the experiences of their journalistic values. That is why Fox has grown in viewers. Not because they are so good journalistic, but because they are the only network questioning what the hell is going on with this most transparent government!

You have a point there. I was generalizing and should have been clearer. I don't think the "FOX News crowd" are off the wall uneducated folks, but many studies have shown that they are less informed than people who get their news from other sources or don't even follow the news at all.

(http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2 ... -suggests/)

According to the article the MSNBC crowd didn't fare much better. “Ideological media does a very poor job overall,” and their viewers tend to not want their assumptions challenged and would rather hear someone regurgitate a view they already hold. My opinion is that media, like many businesses, have consolidated to the point where there are a handful of major media outlets owned by an even smaller number of jumbo-sized conglomerates and the free press, if not dead, is harder to find. Investigative reporting is a thing of the past. FOX, MSNBC, CNN, etc. are all part of the same alphabet soup. Of the big three mentioned CNN, to me, seems the most objective and least likely to put forth an agenda as opposed to news but they've fallen off. Their style of broadcasting annoys me. Their recent coverage of the missing Malaysian plane is a good example. The US could use another Edward R. Murrow but instead gets Wolf Blitzer, Sean Hannity/Bill O'Reily, and Keith Olberman.

captcosmic wrote:For my opinion on socialized medicine. It is fine and honorable to be able to take care of a population's. Healthcare. But it is a slippery slope once you go done the road to providing healthcare for everyone. Personally I pay enough taxes now. more than my fair share. And with 48% of the population not paying anything other than sales tax, it is a hard pill to swallow for the rest of the population that knows another entitlement program will be just that. I will continue to work for my medical plan, and of course, work for the others who don't have a medical plan. There are people who just will never work, and don't care. They feel ok with it, some one is paying for their lifestyle, medical bills, food and cell phones. A check magically shows up every month. They are not stealing, just taking what is rightfully theirs because the government says so. They feel entitled to free stuff. They tilt at windmills and say they are trying, but it is so easy to fall into that trap, and not really try. Just get your free stuff, because everyone else is doing it!

Government has an inability to do almost anything right. I do not know how they can run a medical program, run by the IRS no less. We are 17 trillion dollars in debt. Going after something as large as the medical system when we cant even pay our credit bills is not a good idea. That like going out and buying a new car before you get your credit cards paid off!! Maybe the Europeans have the right idea, but the US is not Europe. Both sides should have thought this through. Now it is law and some one is going to have to pay for it. Most folks like me are worried it will be most folks like me paying for the ones who aren't working for a living. It is not that the US has swung to the right on this and any other ideals. It is just the ones paying the taxes are waking up and letting their voice be heard for a change. Folks like that are usually busy supporting their family and do not have time to carry a picket sign. I do think the pendulum has swung and now the "right" has learned a hard lesson from the "left."

We have a fine example of someone taking advantage of their government's welfare system right here. And I think that worries many in the US.

I agree with you that the people paying for all of this have a right to be concerned. I don't have much faith in the US government doing much right, but they do run large organizations such as the military and were able to land a man on the moon so it's not as if they are totally inept. I don't put much faith in private health insurers who are motivated by profit and don't give a damn about the health of the nations citizens. Critics talk about government 'death panels' that decide who and what gets treated but the insurance companies already have their own panels so what's the difference other than profit? Does it really matter to the loved ones whether Grandma's treatment is denied by a private health insurance companies panel or the a government panel? Does the family feel better knowing that it was private enterprise and not government that denied Grandpa's treatment? IMO, the key isn't to spend, spend, spend, but to cut down on the needless waste and insurance company middle men. Easier said than done. I don't have much faith in such a large system working but it does work in European countries so theoretically it could work in the US. In the US I'm guaranteed an attorney at government expense should I be arrested and need one. I'd gladly trade that right for being able to see a doctor if I couldn't afford one when needed.

Usually when people mention "the 48%" they don't mention that they pay sales tax, so I'm glad to see that you've acknowledged that they do. In addition to the sales tax they also pay gasoline tax, tobacco tax, alcohol tax, road tolls, social security tax and other employment related taxes, possibly state income tax, property tax, county tax, municipal tax, fees to use public lands, etc.. It's more than just sales tax. Since they don't make enough to qualify to pay federal income tax the taxes they do pay take a bigger chunk out of what they make - hopefully earn. There are a lot of hardworking families that are part of this 48% who work hard without taking advantage of the system. Then there are the people on the other side of the don't pay taxes coin; the ones who are rich enough and have the right lawyers and accountants so that they also don't have to pay federal income tax because the lawyers/accountants know how to stash it in off-shore tax havens. Very patriotic of them. The ever shrinking middle class are the ones affected most. I'd rather make $1 Million and pay half in taxes than make so little that I didn't have to pay any federal income tax. $500k is still more than the upper threshold for not paying.

I agree that it's frustrating to see people cheat the system and that there needs to more responsible spending and limits, but considering the US spends more on defense than China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, France, The UK, Germany, Japan and India combined I see how the government spends money more as a question of priorities than anything else. I'd rather see more money being spent (and inevitably wasted) on health care for it's citizens than spent on military overkill and inevitably wasted on companies like Haliburton. Nothing against the military - many fine consumer goods and technological advances have come from military spending, but once you have enough weaponry to blow the world up once everything else seems a bit redundant. If the US government can fund unnecessary wars that benefit the few such as Haliburton, they can fund, at a fraction of the cost, to help with the overall health care of it's citizens which benefits all.

No matter whether I 100% agree with someone or share the same ideology I'm glad to see well thought out and presented opinions rather than the all too frequent moronic statements that exist solely to provoke and garner attention.

No matter who you vote for, The Government always gets in.
Last edited by ironchefchris on Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:16 pm

ironchefchris wrote:If the US government can fund unnecessary wars that benefit the few such as Haliburton, they can fund, at a fraction of the cost, to help with the overall health care of it's citizens which benefits all.


I don't understand why there's isn't free healtcare for everyone in the US. It can't be that difficult to put that in place. I neither understand why so many US citizens are against free healthcare for the poor.

All the money that has been wasted in lost wars could have wiped poverty out in the US and could given all US citizens free education and free healthcare for life.
Now the streets of the US are full of homeless people with a piece of cardboard around their neck begging for some loose change.

Soon the name of the USA will be changed to USP. United States of Panhandlers.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby mammamia » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:25 pm

chi chi wrote:
ironchefchris wrote:If the US government can fund unnecessary wars that benefit the few such as Haliburton, they can fund, at a fraction of the cost, to help with the overall health care of it's citizens which benefits all.


I don't understand why there's isn't free healtcare for everyone in the US. It can't be that difficult to put that in place. I neither understand why so many US citizens are against free healthcare for the poor.

All the money that has been wasted in lost wars could have wiped poverty out in the US and could given all US citizens free education and free healthcare for life.
Now the streets of the US are full of homeless people with a piece of cardboard around their neck begging for some loose change.

Soon the name of the USA will be changed to USP. United States of Panhandlers.


Chi chi, have a look at some European countries where healthcare is free or almost free (Spain, Italy, Greece). It looks to me that their governments went on a spending spree giving away too much money on various social programs, not wars though, and still their economies look much worse than that of the USA who, according to you wasted way too much money in the wars they lost!
Didn't you yourself say that most beggars make more money than an average middle class family? So, why should the US be different? If there are people willing to give alms there will be people ready to receive it!
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby SilverbackPeru » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:23 pm

Actually that isn't the reason why Spain, Italy and Greece are having problems but it usually gets brought up by anti socialists about Europes current situation.

Britain is on the up but we ran up huge debts bailing out the banking sector after a lot of the banks almost crashed due to the merging of saving and investment banking (probably the worst idea in history).

Spain were extremely unlucky, they were brought down by the property crash caused by the banking crash. Lots of holiday homes that were built during the boom times were left unsold.

Greece and Italy as well as a few other southern European countries have problems where people will do almost anything to not pay their taxes. This especially has been a big problem in Greece and it's not rocket science to see what happens in there are no taxes being paid! Italy also had the problem of Berlusconi the president at the time who is as bent as a $2 bill! I wouldn't even like to think about how much money that guy has stole from the Italian government.

Also how much tax evasion do the corporations get away with? Starbucks pays no tax at all in any way in the UK, how is that possible!

American news coverage is terrible! I'm sorry but there is always some angel or view the channel is trying to force down your throat! And it's amazing how much they are allowed to talk about when it comes to murder trials! Trial by tv! HLN is pretty good however but if you want proper international news then it's BBC or Al jarzier to watch! The good thing about the BBC is that money comes from the tax payers so it doesn't end up having some big corporation telling it how to report else it will cut advertising.

You have to educate people so that they have good working values is the problem and come down like a ton weight on those who abuse the system. Look at the tories in the UK, they are getting this problem sorted out!
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:55 am

mammamia wrote:Chi chi, have a look at some European countries where healthcare is free or almost free (Spain, Italy, Greece). It looks to me that their governments went on a spending spree giving away too much money on various social programs, not wars though, and still their economies look much worse than that of the USA who, according to you wasted way too much money in the wars they lost!


Spain, Italy and Greece are the third world countries of Europe. In many towns in Greece, Italy and Spain, the unemployment rate is 90% !!!! I doesn't struck me because Spain supported the lost war on so called terror. The US has been pushing Spain into get involved into a lost war so because of the fault of the US, hundreds of people died in the bombing of the trains in Spain. 9/11 was nothing compared to what happended in Spain, Same with the terrorist attack in London. 9/11 was nothing compared to that.

SilverbackPeru wrote: Italy also had the problem of Berlusconi the president at the time who is as bent as a $2 bill! I wouldn't even like to think about how much money that guy has stole from the Italian government.


Silvio Berlusconi (Bunga Bunga) has never been the president of Italy. He was just a minister in the government. He was just playing around with his 15 year old girlfriend. But he was and still is very popular with the Italians. He was a man of his word. He never stole money from the government, He was involved in some shady business deals with the Cosa Nostra, N'Dragheti, the Corleone family, the Capone family and the Frasciati's and the Gambino family but appart from that, he was a clean guy.

David Cameron and maffia boss Tony Blair are much bigger criminals and they embedded much more money and gazumped much more.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby SilverbackPeru » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:28 am

ChiChi Berlusconi is one of Italies longest serving prime minister so you do have that one wrong. David Camerons has been tough on welfare and has cut money not taken it, Blair was good but a bit naive at times. Both have been a bit too friendly with the banks is their biggest problems.

Berlusconi however had sex partys where hundred of thousands of tax payers money was paid for hookers. He has just been found not guilty of under age sex with the 15 year prositute named heart breaker who amazingly changed her confession recently and she started praising Berlusconi for being the kindest man she's ever met and that he knows how to treat a girl to make her feel like a lady, mmm how money do you think he gave her in the end? I guess you are right a little bit, apart from shady deals with major gangsta families, and sexparties paid by tax payers, and the bungs and the bribes, he is a pretty clean guy tho!
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:50 pm

chi chi wrote:
mammamia wrote:Chi chi, have a look at some European countries where healthcare is free or almost free (Spain, Italy, Greece). It looks to me that their governments went on a spending spree giving away too much money on various social programs, not wars though, and still their economies look much worse than that of the USA who, according to you wasted way too much money in the wars they lost!


Spain, Italy and Greece are the third world countries of Europe. In many towns in Greece, Italy and Spain, the unemployment rate is 90% !!!! I doesn't struck me because Spain supported the lost war on so called terror. The US has been pushing Spain into get involved into a lost war so because of the fault of the US, hundreds of people died in the bombing of the trains in Spain. 9/11 was nothing compared to what happended in Spain, Same with the terrorist attack in London. 9/11 was nothing compared to that.

SilverbackPeru wrote: Italy also had the problem of Berlusconi the president at the time who is as bent as a $2 bill! I wouldn't even like to think about how much money that guy has stole from the Italian government.


Silvio Berlusconi (Bunga Bunga) has never been the president of Italy. He was just a minister in the government. He was just playing around with his 15 year old girlfriend. But he was and still is very popular with the Italians. He was a man of his word. He never stole money from the government, He was involved in some shady business deals with the Cosa Nostra, N'Dragheti, the Corleone family, the Capone family and the Frasciati's and the Gambino family but appart from that, he was a clean guy.

David Cameron and maffia boss Tony Blair are much bigger criminals and they embedded much more money and gazumped much more.


"Silvio Berlusconi (Bunga Bunga) has never been the president of Italy" Wow. Is someone operating a keyboard without a licence?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:25 pm

teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:Silvio Berlusconi (Bunga Bunga) has never been the president of Italy. He was just a minister in the government.


"Silvio Berlusconi (Bunga Bunga) has never been the president of Italy" Wow. Is someone operating a keyboard without a licence?


Here's the list of all presidents that Italy had in history. Silvio Berlusconi isn't in that list because Silvio Berlusconi has never been the president of Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pr ... s_of_Italy


One of the best (probably the best) was Sandro Pertini. He was a socialist president.
His death at the age of 94 was considered as a national tragedy.

The longest serving president is Georgio Napolitano. He's president since 2006.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:34 pm

Ah, I see the confusion... maybe I need to hang up my keyboard: :D

"Silvio Berlusconi born 29 September 1936) is an Italian media tycoon and politician. ... who served three times as Prime Minister of Italy, from 1994 to 1995, 2001 to 2006 and 2008 to 2011. ...

Berlusconi was Prime Minister for nine years in total, making him the longest-serving post-war Prime Minister of Italy, and the third longest-serving since the Unification of Italy, after Benito Mussolini and Giovanni Giolitti."
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby mammamia » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:49 pm

Spain, Italy and Greece are the third world countries of Europe. In many towns in Greece, Italy and Spain, the unemployment rate is 90% !!!! I doesn't struck me because Spain supported the lost war on so called terror. The US has been pushing Spain into get involved into a lost war so because of the fault of the US, hundreds of people died in the bombing of the trains in Spain. 9/11 was nothing compared to what happended in Spain, Same with the terrorist attack in London. 9/11 was nothing compared to that.


Chi chi, I still can't get how we can compare Spain and the USA in terms of participation in war against terror. I can't see your point when you are trying to compare the 2004 Madrid train bombing with 9/11 al Qaida attack either! How can we compare an average of $12bln Spain spends on its military each year with about $700bln of the US yearly defense expenditures? And finally, if Spain, Italy and Greece are "the third world countries" in Europe why do you think the states are to blame for it? Isn't it Germany's, France's or UK's fault, it's them who are the driving force of the EU?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:05 pm

mammamia wrote:$700bln of the US yearly defense expenditures?


That's $700bln too much. With that money, poverty in the US can be wiped out and all US citizens can get free healthcare and good education.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby mammamia » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:37 pm

Why then can't Spain that spends only $12bln wipe out poverty and have a better economic record than the US?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:44 pm

mammamia wrote:Why then can't Spain that spends only $12bln wipe out poverty and have a better economic record than the US?


ONLY 12 bln? That's 12 bln spendet too much. But the situation in Spain isn't too bad as in the US.
Unlike in the US, the Spanish don't have to live in tent cities and don't have to panhandling as they get wellfare benefits and good education and healthcare at no costs.

I heard that in the US, there are hospitals that refuse treatment to patients that 'don't have money'. Even pharmacies refuse to give people medication if they don't have money on them.

During the economic crisis, no money should be spend on useless organisations like the military.
Jobs should be created. Not dead bodies.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby mammamia » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:00 pm

Of course, they don't live in "tent cities" but they do jump out their windows to avoid being evicted from their apartments or even better immigrate to Germany or even Latin America looking for jobs!
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:09 pm

mammamia wrote:Of course, they don't live in "tent cities" but they do jump out their windows to avoid being evicted from their apartments or even better immigrate to Germany or even Latin America looking for jobs!


At least they have an option to go to other EU countries or Latin America.

Unfortunately, US citizens don't have that option due to visa requirements and language barriers.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby mammamia » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:18 pm

They
don'tneed that option because unlike the spoiled Europeans they'd rather
work two jobs than depend on government handouts you call welfare.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby SilverbackPeru » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:23 am

I think that's a bit of an unfair generalization that Europeans are spoiled and just claim instead of doing 2 jobs. I would work monday to friday 8am to 5pm the day job, and then start the night job from 5:30pm to midnight. Then on the weekend i had a bar job from 5pm to 3am or 1am on saturday and sunday.

I just think it's good that if you work all your life, pay your taxes then your country looks after you in your hour of need or a state pension if you were on a minimum wage. The governments in the EU level the playing field for the less well off instead of you ending up with an extremely poor slave labour class like here in Peru and how it could go in the west as corporations send the labour production work to 3rd world countries for slave labour so they can make the maximum profit. You have to remember the days of a job for everyone in the west are now gone and more and more jobs will be lost to China so there is going to be a larger percentage of unemployment in the future. Germany knows this and is even starting to calculate the economy to take into account the future unemployment.

As i said my family is having a crisis with the health of one of it's members, who is in her mid 50's and could need to be kept in hospital for the rest of her life, how in the United States would a family support this if it were to happen? I know there is health insurance but from my friends in the States i've heard some crazy stories about how some of the insurance companies will try to get out of paying as if it were car insurance. One friends ex wife has a rare heart problem and the company won't pay for the treatment as the specialists are out of state. Another friend could only pay health insurance for her son who has learning difficulties and so didn't have health insurance herself, she's a single mother with no family so she can't get help with her son so she can work a second job. Another single mothers boss wouldn't pay her health insurance,again only the child got health cover.

I don't know what chichi's case is but if he is genuinely in bad health and can not work then he is perfectly entitled to help off the state if he has spent his entire life up to that point working and paying to the system regardless of where he lives. If he can work then he shouldn't receive the help and is Cheating the system. The problem is to catch those that cheat the system not the system itself.

Sorry ChiChi but you must live in a very naive world if you believe that a nation doesn't need an army!

I hope none of the Americans take these comments personally, i like the states and Americans are easily the nicest people you will ever meet but i've always thought when it comes to welfare and support off the state it's about getting the right balance is all. It's about letter people receive the rewards for hard work but not creating huge social and class divides, but it's also about not letting the system swing too much the other way because altho everyone should be educated enough to have the right attitude to work there is always those without the morals who will abuse the system. Yes Europe can be prone to swinging too much to the left but the States can easily go too much to the right.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby SilverbackPeru » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:36 am

Italy was mentioned as well, Italy has an extremely strong manufacturing base but all of this is based in the north around the main cities of Milan, Turin and Venice. The problem is the south is very corrupt and poor.

Venice has recently raised the question of independence from the rest of Italy as they are sick of paying lots of taxes to Rome that gets squandered by feckless and corrupt politicians and never seeing money returned back for projects they need.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby teamoperu » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:59 am

SilverbackPeru wrote:I think that's a bit of an unfair generalization that Europeans are spoiled and just claim instead of doing 2 jobs. I would work monday to friday 8am to 5pm the day job, and then start the night job from 5:30pm to midnight. Then on the weekend i had a bar job from 5pm to 3am or 1am on saturday and sunday.

...

I don't know what chichi's case is but if he is genuinely in bad health and can not work then he is perfectly entitled to help off the state if he has spent his entire life up to that point working and paying to the system regardless of where he lives. If he can work then he shouldn't receive the help and is Cheating the system. The problem is to catch those that cheat the system not the system itself.

Sorry ChiChi but you must live in a very naive world if you believe that a nation doesn't need an army!


“I don't know what chichi's case is but if he is genuinely in bad health and can not work then he is perfectly entitled to help off the state if he has spent his entire life up to that point working and paying to the system regardless of where he lives. If he can work then he shouldn't receive the help and is Cheating the system. The problem is to catch those that cheat the system not the system itself.”

Interesting points. Of course, someone in so bad health to not be able to work is presumably so bad he cannot motobike around; go to the swimming beach regularly; imbibe at local bars regularly; fly to LA, Las Vegas, NYC and the sex tourism destinations like the Philippines; troll around Parque Kennedy; start a laundry in Lima; and apply for “1000's” of jobs (why apply if you can't work?). No where has it been suggested anyone worked anywhere “all their life”, just a few years for several airlines. “Regardless of where he lives” may be your fair view, but if the country Belgium states you must live in Belgium to receive benefits then one must follow Belgium rules, not your view, otherwise it is cheating.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:45 pm

mammamia wrote:They
don'tneed that option because unlike the spoiled Europeans they'd rather
work two jobs than depend on government handouts you call welfare.


They don't ''rather'' work 2 jobs. They have too because wages are lousy.

But at the other hand, if someone does a second job then someone else won't have a job. So, anyone who has a second job shouldn't complain that he has to pay a lot of taxes to support the unemployed.

Still, millions in the US are on wellfare and that amount is growing day by day. So, are the lines at the soupkitchens and homeless shelters.
Many more jobs are being outsourced to Asia and this trend won't stop.

Daily, thousand of people cross the border with Mexico illegally or arrive by air and have a tourist visa or are from a country that is part of the Visa Waiver Programm but are just going to overstay and work illegally.
They are prepared to undercut the wages of the Americans and thus drive many Americans out of the labour market.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:05 pm

SilverbackPeru wrote:I think that's a bit of an unfair generalization that Europeans are spoiled and just claim instead of doing 2 jobs. I would work monday to friday 8am to 5pm the day job, and then start the night job from 5:30pm to midnight. Then on the weekend i had a bar job from 5pm to 3am or 1am on saturday and sunday.

I just think it's good that if you work all your life, pay your taxes then your country looks after you in your hour of need or a state pension if you were on a minimum wage. The governments in the EU level the playing field for the less well off instead of you ending up with an extremely poor slave labour class like here in Peru and how it could go in the west as corporations send the labour production work to 3rd world countries for slave labour so they can make the maximum profit. You have to remember the days of a job for everyone in the west are now gone and more and more jobs will be lost to China so there is going to be a larger percentage of unemployment in the future. her health insurance,again only the child got health cover.


I was used to have 2 jobs as well. But now, that won't be posible anymore. You have to be lucky to get 1 job nowadays.

The labour market is Western Europe has become very competitive.

Everyday, companies move to Asia or just close down.

Since that the Eastern European countries joined the EU, millions of Eastern Europeans moved to Western Europe. Those Eastern Europeans are prepared to work for lower wages. Often they work jobs that pay them cash in hand thus avoiding to pay tax and social security contributions. So, many employers prefere to employ them.

Everyday, boats full of refugees arrive in Southern Europe. Those illegal immigrants work illegally in slave like conditions for very little money. Many of them just work for food and shelter.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby SilverbackPeru » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:51 pm

It's not that hard to get a job, it took me 3 months to get 3 jobs when i was back 3 years ago.

There is lots of foreigners working for very little in the take awsys tho.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:39 pm

SilverbackPeru wrote:It's not that hard to get a job, it took me 3 months to get 3 jobs when i was back 3 years ago.

There is lots of foreigners working for very little in the take awsys tho.


It depends off your prior work experience, age and qualifications.

I've been looking for a job for years. 2 years ago, I travelled to Ireland. I was there for 2 months and couldn't get a job and I submitted 100's of jobapplications and I registered with several employment agencies.

Last year, I did the same in Belgium. Employment agencies told me that I will be almost impossible to find a job for me because of my age. Several employers told me as well that they aren't interested in employing someone of my age as it's too expensive or they were looking for someone who is registered as a student as they almost don't have too pay tax on their wages and social security contributions.

The goverment has a program is place where employers get a reduction of tax and social security contributions if they employ older people but I have to be at least 50 years old before I can enroll in that program.

You are right, many foreigners work in take aways but many of them are students that work there to help them paying for their living costs.
Many of the foreign restaurant owner only employ people from their own country or ethnic origin.
Very rarely, you will see a local working in a kebab place, chinese take-away or Indian restaurant.

Many of the people working in those kebab places or other exotic take away and food places are working illegally there.
Worldwide, the catering business is a heaven for illegal immigrant workers and people that live on wellfare and want to make an extra bob.

In Belgium, often the social security inspectors raid a place but the fines for employing illegals or locals that work ''off the record'' are so low. Often a place gets raided but 2 hours later, a new load off illegals is working there.
On average, a restaurant gets check by the department of labor, every 20 years. So, if the owner gets a 5000 euro fine for employing illegals or locals that are on wellfare and want to make an extra bob by working for 'cash in hand' then the fine is nothing compared to the 100000's of euros saved in the past by not registering employees.
Last edited by chi chi on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby captcosmic » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:50 pm

chi chi wrote:
SilverbackPeru wrote:It's not that hard to get a job, it took me 3 months to get 3 jobs when i was back 3 years ago.

There is lots of foreigners working for very little in the take awsys tho.


It depends off your prior work experience, age and qualifications.

I've been looking for a job for years. 2 years ago, I travelled to Ireland. I was there for 2 months and couldn't get a job and I submitted 100's of jobapplications and I registered with several employment agencies.

Last year, I did the same in Belgium. Employment agencies told me that I will be almost impossible to find a job for me because of my age. Several employers told me as well that they aren't interested in employing someone of my age as it's too expensive or they were looking for someone who is registered as a student as they almost don't have too pay tax on their wages and social security contributions.

The goverment has a program is place where employers get a reduction of tax and social security contributions if they employ older people but I have to be at least 50 years old before I can enroll in that program.



Any rookie HR person would never tell you that they cannot hire you because of your age. Even in a backward capitalistic country like the US, it is against the law to discriminate against some one on the basis of their age. Unless the job had some kind of restrictions that an elderly person can't do, then it maybe. But it is still hard for me to believe a knowledgeable person from HR told you they can't hire you because of your age! I do not know about Belgium, but I would think if it was the US you would have a good case on age discrimination.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:02 pm

captcosmic wrote:Any rookie HR person would never tell you that they cannot hire you because of your age. Even in a backward capitalistic country like the US, it is against the law to discriminate against some one on the basis of their age. Unless the job had some kind of restrictions that an elderly person can't do, then it maybe. But it is still hard for me to believe a knowledgeable person from HR told you they can't hire you because of your age! I do not know about Belgium, but I would think if it was the US you would have a good case on age discrimination.


Last year, I went to the jobcenter and complained that a company told me that they aren't interested in hiring me because of my age. They told me if I want to take the complaint further then I have to hire my own lawyer, pay the court costs. Before the case goes to trail, it easily might take 1 year waiting time. The máximum compensation I will get is a 1 euro compensation. Really, 1 euro. It won't even cover my busfare to go to court.

In the US, an employer won't probably tell you that straightforward but he will see your age on your application form and won't call for an interview.

But in the US, age discrimination and discrimination based on looks happens at lot.
I don't think that a 50 year old makes a lot of chance of being hired as a waitress at Hooters or as a cocktail server in a casino in Las Vegas or in a ... ''Bikini Car Wash''. 8)
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:55 pm

chi chi wrote:Last year, I did the same in Belgium. Employment agencies told me that I will be almost impossible to find a job for me because of my age. Several employers told me as well that they aren't interested in employing someone of my age as it's too expensive or they were looking for someone who is registered as a student as they almost don't have too pay tax on their wages and social security contributions.

chi chi wrote:Last year, I went to the jobcenter and complained that a company told me that they aren't interested in hiring me because of my age. They told me if I want to take the complaint further then I have to hire my own lawyer, pay the court costs. Before the case goes to trail, it easily might take 1 year waiting time. The máximum compensation I will get is a 1 euro compensation. Really, 1 euro. It won't even cover my busfare to go to court.

Really? Only 1 Euro in compensation for workers who are the victim of age discrimination? This doesn't sound like the Socialist worker's paradise you've described Belgium as being in many posts. The Socialist Union you're a member of puts up with this? They don't sound as strong or as concerned about their members as you make them out to be. Victims of age discrimination in the US, where you find so much fault, would get far more than 1 Euro. US companies would love to operate in a legal system such as Belgium where they could discriminate against workers (and who knows what else) and at most face a fine of 1 Euro.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:36 pm

ironchefchris wrote:Victims of age discrimination in the US, where you find so much fault, would get far more than 1 Euro. US companies would love to operate in a legal system such as Belgium where they could discriminate against workers (and who knows what else) and at most face a fine of 1 Euro.



It doesn't look like he got a lot of compensation.

11487185-large.jpg
11487185-large.jpg (45.06 KiB) Viewed 815 times


On every streetcorner in the US, you see unemployed and even disabled people that are panhandling.

Discrimination or age and skilcolour is rife in the US. Probably more than in other countries.

Why no legal action has been taken against companies like Hooters and some other companies that only employ young good looking females as waitresses or the casinos that only employ young females as cocktail servers?
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:54 am

panman wrote:I'd be interested to know, from any reliable source, if there's any form of means testing in place in Belgium, or do they just hand out money to anyone?
Let's say for instance you are independently wealthy, due to hard work and savings, or perhaps a rich relative leaves you a fortune. Can a Belgian still claim money from the state if they are not working for any reason?
From my limited experience in the UK if you have over X pounds in savings, which has always been my case, you don't get a penny, even if you have made vast contributions during your working life. You can, never the less, blow all those savings on a new Mercedes, a yacht, or the trip of a lifetime to Peru, and then claim. The only problem is, you have to reside in the UK.
If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then I say viva Belgium and, could someone point me to the right track for changing my nationality.


No, there's isn't a form of means testing. So, you don't have to park your Mercedes around the corner if you go to the wellfare office, you can park it in front of the door.
That means testing in the UK doesn't make sense. If people who have above a certain amount of savings cannot go on the dole then nobody will save anymore.
And how can they check it? Just open another bank account on the day that you become unemployed on only put a few quid on it and show the statement to the wellfare office.

The amount of unemployment benefit you get, is based on your last wage. You get 65% of your last gross wage. If let's say your last gross pay was 2400 euros a month. Then your nett unemployment benefit will be 1560 euro a month. If you have children or a partner to support then off course you get an extra allowance for each of them.

Panman, you don't have to change your nationality and you neither had to work in Belgium before. If you worked in any EU country and have an EU passport then you must request an E301 form from your local social security office and take that with you to Belgium. I personally never worked in Belgium but in other EU countries.
Upon arrival in Belgium, you must become a member of a unión and give them the E301 form. (I recommend the socialist unión) The unión will process all documents for you and will pay your benefits straight into your bank account on the last day of the month.
Many British people claim wellfare benefits in Belgium and live in the UK. You just need an address in Belgium. You can rent a cheap room or give the address of a friend in Belgium. Many of them make a few extra bob with boozetripping. They buy cheap fags and booze at the duty free shops in Ostend or Calais and then cross the channel with a cheap ticket and sell their haul in the UK.

But the benefits system in the UK doesn't sound bad either. 100000's Roma's and other Eastern Europeans flocked to the UK. Just to live of benefits and get free housing and healthcare. They have no intention at all to look for a job.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -road.html
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby ironchefchris » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:28 am

chi chi wrote:
ironchefchris wrote:Victims of age discrimination in the US, where you find so much fault, would get far more than 1 Euro. US companies would love to operate in a legal system such as Belgium where they could discriminate against workers (and who knows what else) and at most face a fine of 1 Euro.



It doesn't look like he got a lot of compensation.

11487185-large.jpg

Do you know for a fact that the guy in this picture was discriminated against because of his age? If not, the picture and the guy have no relevance to what you said about only receiving 1 Euro maximum if you are a victim of age discrimination in Belgium. The sign says nothing about him being discriminated against. This guy without a job could be you being that you are both unemployed so what's your point? What I see is an unemployed guy with enough incentive to spend his time with a sign looking for work instead of relying on the government to give him a job or anyone to provide him with a handout. He's asking for the opportunity to work for his keep, not for someone to wipe his ass because he feels he's owed that and the government has an obligation to do so. Because unemployed people in the US take the incentive to look for work, even holding up signs, you somehow think that means that things are far worse there but if people such as yourself don't bother to look for work or hold up a sign that means things are better? You're demonizing a country because it's unemployed citizens look for work but the reality is the only difference between you and the guy in the picture is that you're too busy demonizing others while this guy is busy looking for work - you're both unemployed. Please provide a link to the photo that shows this man is the victim of discrimination in the workplace if you can show this is the case. Otherwise you picked an irrelevant photo to make your irrelevant point.

chi chi wrote:On every streetcorner in the US, you see unemployed and even disabled people that are panhandling.

Obvious exaggeration with no basis in reality. Again, irrelevant to your statement about victims of age discrimination in Belgium only being entitled to no more that 1 Euro after numerous posts describing Belgium as a Socialist worker's paradise where the government (which includes the legal system) takes care of it's people. A maximum of 1 Euro for workers who've been discriminated against sounds more like an incentive for business to do what they want without fear of reprisal than a system that takes care of it's workers.

chi chi wrote:Discrimination or age and skilcolour is rife in the US. Probably more than in other countries.

Perhaps. I wouldn't know for sure. I kind of doubt it, being that in the US the penalty is far greater than 1 Euro for companies that discriminate. Do you have anything to back up your allegation? If not, seems like just another chi chi'ism without any basis in reality. I would think there would be more discrimination in a country where the legal system only punishes discrimination with a penalty of 1 Euro, but that's only based on the logic of fear of penalty = less crime vs. no penalty = greater crime. I'm not making definitive statements I can't back up. Maybe you think there is more discrimination against workers in the US because there are plenty of examples of discrimination lawsuits. If Belgium only rewards its discriminated workers a maximum of 1 Euro it would make sense there would be fewer lawsuits filed by workers who've been discriminated against and you're extrapolating that out to mean there is less discrimination. Sorry, you're reasoning, as usual, doesn't hold water.

chi chi wrote:Why no legal action has been taken against companies like Hooters and some other companies that only employ young good looking females as waitresses or the casinos that only employ young females as cocktail servers?

Good question. One you should have done a simple Google search on before making yet another false statement. I do know that when there is legal action in the US where the courts found against the employers the employee wins more than a maximum of 1 whole Euro. I never made any claims to the US being some paradise where everyone is taken care of and the workers are represented by strong unions and valued by the government, whereas you have repeatedly made Belgium out to be a Socialist paradise where the worker is treated fairly, but it seems that in a case of employers discriminating against workers the courts are obviously looking out more for business than the workers, as you've stated yourself in your 1 Euro remarks, and your union isn't looking out for you and/or has no strength if they allow their discriminated against union members to receive no more that 1 Euro. Yet another example of you not being able to back up your statements and having to change the subject and blame someone else for something unrelated - in this specific case the disparity between your claims of a Socialist paradise that takes care of its workers and people and the fact that you stated that discriminated against workers are entitled to no more that 1 Euro. If you took the time to do a Wikipedia search there's a whole section detailing discrimination lawsuits against Hooters. Same if you do a Google search on "Hooters discrimination lawsuits" and "discrimination lawsuits casinos," so actually, you're wrong about "no legal actions being taken against companies like Hooters..." I trust you can do the Google search but if you'd like I'd be glad to provide the links to my sources. By the way, the workers who won their discrimination lawsuits in the US were compensated far more than the 1 Euro they would have received in your Socialist workers paradise where the government and unions supposedly take care of the people and the workers.

I never made any definitive statements about the US taking care of it's workers or that all was fair and good, but I've taken the time to show how your claims are either irrelevant and/or just not true. You've made statements saying that all is wonderful for the worker in Belgium and now when you are called on to explain how this can be when discriminated against workers are only entitled to 1 Euro you go to your usual routine of changing the subject and blaming someone else for an unrelated subject. Don't you ever get tired of having your statements come back to bite you in the ass or is it just about getting the attention, even if you do make yourself look like an idiot in the process?
Last edited by ironchefchris on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Welfare in Belgium

Postby chi chi » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:47 am

ironchefchris wrote:If you took the time to do a Wikipedia search there's a whole section detailing discrimination lawsuits against Hooters. Same if you do a Google search on "Hooters discrimination lawsuits" and "discrimination lawsuits casinos," so actually, you're wrong about "no legal actions being taken against companies like Hooters..." I trust you can do the Google search but if you'd like I'd be glad to provide the links to my sources. By the way, the workers who won their discrimination lawsuits in the US were compensated far more than the 1 Euro they would have received in your Socialist workers paradise where the government and unions supposedly take care of the people and the workers.


Still, age discrimination is hard to prove. Otherwise, I can go to the US as well, apply for a job and I sue any company that didn't offer me a job for age discrimination.
Age discrimination is easy to do. Employers will just not invite anyone who's over a certain age for an interview. That's what they call pre-selection of the application forms they receive.

Anyway, unemployment benefits is much better in Europe than in the US. It's even hard to live of benefits in the US. The unemployed in the US even don't get paid vacation.
I consider looking for work as as job as well.

The unemployed in the US should sue the government and demand compensation for the lack of jobs. It's 100% the fault of the government that companies run off and that there's an economic crisis.

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