Education

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chi chi
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Education

Postby chi chi » Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:56 pm

Nowadays, it's better to learn a trade than getting one of those degrees.

People who study years to get a degree, diploma, MBA,... but many end up on the dole or have to re-train as they don't find a job. On top of that many build up a huge student debt.

Good qualified welders, electricians, builders, plumbers and car mechanics allways find work and make good money.
And becoming self-employed is easy and you don't need a lot of investment to start working on your own. Most start off with their toolbox and a second hand van.


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Re: Education

Postby sbaustin » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:03 pm

Intereating point of view. Do you have any statistics to back up your point or is it just opinion? Out of pure curiosity does working in the airline industry require a degree?
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:12 pm

sbaustin wrote:Intereating point of view. Do you have any statistics to back up your point or is it just opinion? Out of pure curiosity does working in the airline industry require a degree?


I worked as airline crew for more than 10 years and don't have any diploma at all. I trained at the airline and obtained my Crew Member Certificate and EASA flight licence.


http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... pital.html

There are graduates that pay to work for someone or work for free.



http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... aries.html

No tradesperson will work for free.
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:22 am

Chi Chi this is not a recent practice and has been in place for many years, including tradesmen / women.
I left school in 1966 and entered the printing industry as an Indentured apprentice, entailing three weeks on the job training followed by a week at the college of science, per month for a period of six years. In addition I attended evening classes three times a week to achieve my qualifications.
My father agreed terms with the company I joined and paid them my first year’s salary of £69, as a bond. This was re-paid to me weekly with a weekly deduction of six pence (2.5p) per week union membership. After the first year my apprenticeship was approved. My father signed my indentures and I then started receiving a salary in the form of 10% of a journeyman’s pay. At that time £93.00 per annum. This was now subject to national insurance amounting to £4. 10shillings per annum. The salary increased annually over the remaining term to the full journeyman’s salary.
As my illustration shows it is not always a bed of roses for the tradesman / woman. The above experience enabled me to command a good standard of living, security of employment at good level and guarantees in place for retirement. Well worth the effort.
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Re: Education

Postby panman » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:25 am

MrEd wrote:I think you will find the highest earners in the world never went to collage or finished it. Look at Bill Gates.
I myself never even finished high school. I dropped out started working for a plumbing contractor and in ten years owned and ran my own heating and plumbing business. Still gives me an income today. Did not indenture myself, work for sub wages pay anyone off or need any special schooling other than on the job training at full wages.

The problem here is reflected in the way people learn such jobs in Peru, ie little or no formal training.
You might be an excellent plumber but if you look at the quality of workmanship turned out by most unqualified Peruvian workmen, you'd have to agree it's pretty poor to say the least.
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Re: Education

Postby teamoperu » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:40 am

sbaustin wrote:Intereating point of view. Do you have any statistics to back up your point or is it just opinion?


Agreed, do you have any evidence to support your statement or is it just some unsupported opinion you throw out because you have no degrees?
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:15 am

panman wrote:
MrEd wrote:I think you will find the highest earners in the world never went to collage or finished it. Look at Bill Gates.
I myself never even finished high school. I dropped out started working for a plumbing contractor and in ten years owned and ran my own heating and plumbing business. Still gives me an income today. Did not indenture myself, work for sub wages pay anyone off or need any special schooling other than on the job training at full wages.

The problem here is reflected in the way people learn such jobs in Peru, ie little or no formal training.
You might be an excellent plumber but if you look at the quality of workmanship turned out by most unqualified Peruvian workmen, you'd have to agree it's pretty poor to say the least.


I could not agree more. There have been plumbers and electricians at our home in the last month and both did an excellent job at providing the basic product. It works!
The electrician worked in the garden enclosing cables in protective plastic conduit, but did not glue the joints, sited pipework up my wall without any thought to conceal them and mortared in walls without levelling off. The pipes in the heat from the sun started separating so I have now glued, re-sited the uprights and finished off the filling in.
The plumber serviced the well pump, left a leaking valve and used home made washers on a connection he inadvertently cross threaded. I have rectified all myself.
I must say all the items worked fine and the tradesmen did offer to return and correct the work, but there was always the risk that, they would turn up three days late, create further problems and have to call them again.
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Re: Education

Postby street legal » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:19 am

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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:52 am

adrian Thorne wrote:I could not agree more. There have been plumbers and electricians at our home in the last month and both did an excellent job at providing the basic product. It works!
The electrician worked in the garden enclosing cables in protective plastic conduit, but did not glue the joints, sited pipework up my wall without any thought to conceal them and mortared in walls without levelling off. The pipes in the heat from the sun started separating so I have now glued, re-sited the uprights and finished off the filling in.
The plumber serviced the well pump, left a leaking valve and used home made washers on a connection he inadvertently cross threaded. I have rectified all myself.
I must say all the items worked fine and the tradesmen did offer to return and correct the work, but there was always the risk that, they would turn up three days late, create further problems and have to call them again.


Things you do yourself are generally done better.

When I lived in the UK, I attended short training courses in car repair, plumbing, electricty and painting and decorating and that has saved me loads of money and stress.

Not only Peru but everywhere there are rough traders.
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:01 am

panman wrote:You might be an excellent plumber but if you look at the quality of workmanship turned out by most unqualified Peruvian workmen, you'd have to agree it's pretty poor to say the least.


Because the good ones left the country. In Spain, Peruvian tradesmen have a very good reputation.
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Re: Education

Postby SilverbackPeru » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:14 am

ChiChi is right, i was listening to some news shows from back home which had been talked about how there are too many going to university and not enough jobs for them when they leave, and not enough trades men to fill the jobs going. Which is why there is a ton of easterner europeans back home now making up the numbers. Plus the amount of money you can make as a trades man is ridiculous.

This won't work in Peru tho because of lack of training for builders and other types of work, plus it's all about class and climbing the social ladder. You will get no respect as a builder, and so everyone wants to be a doctor or a lawyer etc.

It is a bit of a shame, as apprenticeships would definitely benefit the workforce in Peru greatly. You just need to look at how bad building work is here. I have close to zero respect for Peruvian builders as almost everything they've done so for for me has failed. Currently it's a 10% success rate( this time last year it was 40%, but they've managed to mess so much more this year!). They can't even paint without not covering door frames or light switches with paint. Colouring between the lines is something you learn as a child with crayons ffs!
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:31 am

SilverbackPeru wrote:Which is why there is a ton of easterner europeans back home now making up the numbers.


But many of them are going back home as wages and standard of living in Eatern Europe is going up. So, the shortage of qualified tradesmen in the UK is getting bigger.

SilverbackPeru wrote:You just need to look at how bad building work is here. I have close to zero respect for Peruvian builders as almost everything they've done so for for me has failed. Currently it's a 10% success rate( this time last year it was 40%, but they've managed to mess so much more this year!). They can't even paint without not covering door frames or light switches with paint. Colouring between the lines is something you learn as a child with crayons ffs!


Because they aren't real tradesmen. They are the so called ''haga todos''.

Today, they are plumber, tomorrow they are electrician, the next day they are bricklayer and if you have a tooteache, they will pull your tooth as well as they claim to be dentist as well.

They do anything for money but aren't capable of doing anything properly.
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Re: Education

Postby teamoperu » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:33 pm

“Nowadays, it's better to learn a trade than getting one of those degrees.” Believe what you want, but don't spread false information. Trades are a great choice for many people. A far better choice is getting an advanced degree, if you are capable of it. Far better prospects, money and opportunities. I wouldn't discourage anyone from going for a trade if that is what suits them, but I encouraged my kids to strive for university education, it provides more.

“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.
Last edited by teamoperu on Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Education

Postby panman » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:37 pm

chi chi wrote:They are the so called ''haga todos''.

Today, they are plumber, tomorrow they are electrician, the next day they are bricklayer and if you have a tooteache, they will pull your tooth as well as they claim to be dentist as well.

They do anything for money but aren't capable of doing anything properly.

I was going to use the term a jack of all trades, master of none, but in most cases that's an overstatement.
With this in mind I would urge anyone who does have a good experience with workmanship, or a service, to post details in "Local services"
I'm currently looking for a mechanic who has a basic understanding of the internal combustion engine. :lol:
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:55 pm

teamoperu wrote:“Nowadays, it's better to learn a trade than getting one of those degrees.” Believe what you want, but don't spread false information. Trades are a great choice for many people. A far better choice is getting an advanced degree, if you are capable of it. Far better prospects, money and opportunities. I wouldn't discourage anyone from going for a trade if that is what suits them, but I encouraged my kids to strive for university education, it provides more.

“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.


Completely agree. A practical hands on training is an important way to learn a trade skill, but it is equally important to build a technical and scientific understanding of your trade and industry. I followed this path and have not been hands on in the industry for 30+ years.
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Re: Education

Postby ironchefchris » Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:25 pm

Used to be you could continue on to higher education without fear of crippling debt so that you could get, you know, educated. You could study whatever it was that interested you, history, anthropology, art history, even philosophy, firm in the knowledge that you could pretty much always get a job in a bank as a loan officer because any employer knew that if you had the ability to learn and the discipline to get a degree you were teachable and could be taught to understand their system no matter what you're area of study was in University.

Those days seem over. Student loan debt is higher than credit card debt in the US. I used to believe that it was a good idea to go to University solely for education without concern for future employment for anyone who had an interest because having a bachelor's degree actually meant something and was pretty much a guarantee of an income higher than someone with just a high school diploma. Now I'd recommend to someone thinking of going to University without the plan of becoming a doctor, scientist, or University professor, who just wants to "go to college" and wind up studying one of the liberal arts, that instead of taking on life-changing amounts of debt that they should maybe just read some books and do self-study in a subject that interests them but has not much chance to contribute paying off any debt they'd incur. Of course if you're a trustafarian that doesn't have to worry about student loans why not study some arcane subject that interests you just for the sake of learning?

That's just my opinion of the US higher education system as it currently stands. Student aged people in other countries with more affordable or even free higher education options most likely face a different scenario. Lucky them.
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:10 pm

teamoperu wrote:“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.


Do you think that tradesmen don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness?

Just being able to unblock a toilet isn't enough to become a plumber. Plumbing isn't easy as it looks likes. Many plumbers are specialised in central heating systems and airconditioning and cooling systems.

Gasfitters, builders and electricians need a lot of knowledge as well.
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Re: Education

Postby teamoperu » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:52 pm

chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.


Do you think that tradesmen don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness?

Just being able to unblock a toilet isn't enough to become a plumber. Plumbing isn't easy as it looks likes. Many plumbers are specialised in central heating systems and airconditioning and cooling systems.

Gasfitters, builders and electricians need a lot of knowledge as well.


So they are uber competent. Which side of the mouth are you using now?

You said above: ¨Today, they are plumber, tomorrow they are electrician, the next day they are bricklayer and if you have a tooteache, they will pull your tooth as well as they claim to be dentist as well. They do anything for money but aren't capable of doing anything properly.¨
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:57 pm

teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.


Do you think that tradesmen don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness?

Just being able to unblock a toilet isn't enough to become a plumber. Plumbing isn't easy as it looks likes. Many plumbers are specialised in central heating systems and airconditioning and cooling systems.

Gasfitters, builders and electricians need a lot of knowledge as well.


So they are uber competent. Which side of the mouth are you using now?

You said above: ¨Today, they are plumber, tomorrow they are electrician, the next day they are bricklayer and if you have a tooteache, they will pull your tooth as well as they claim to be dentist as well. They do anything for money but aren't capable of doing anything properly.¨


I am talking about the real tradesmen. Not the rough traders, haga todos and cowboys.
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Re: Education

Postby teamoperu » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:52 pm

chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.


Do you think that tradesmen don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness?

Just being able to unblock a toilet isn't enough to become a plumber. Plumbing isn't easy as it looks likes. Many plumbers are specialised in central heating systems and airconditioning and cooling systems.

Gasfitters, builders and electricians need a lot of knowledge as well.


So they are uber competent. Which side of the mouth are you using now?

You said above: ¨Today, they are plumber, tomorrow they are electrician, the next day they are bricklayer and if you have a tooteache, they will pull your tooth as well as they claim to be dentist as well. They do anything for money but aren't capable of doing anything properly.¨


I am talking about the real tradesmen. Not the rough traders, haga todos and cowboys.


Really? So are you saying hagos todos don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness. I suspect they do.
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:55 pm

teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.


Do you think that tradesmen don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness?

Just being able to unblock a toilet isn't enough to become a plumber. Plumbing isn't easy as it looks likes. Many plumbers are specialised in central heating systems and airconditioning and cooling systems.

Gasfitters, builders and electricians need a lot of knowledge as well.


So they are uber competent. Which side of the mouth are you using now?

You said above: ¨Today, they are plumber, tomorrow they are electrician, the next day they are bricklayer and if you have a tooteache, they will pull your tooth as well as they claim to be dentist as well. They do anything for money but aren't capable of doing anything properly.¨


I am talking about the real tradesmen. Not the rough traders, haga todos and cowboys.


Really? So are you saying hagos todos don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness. I suspect they do.


The topic is about that professional and qualified tradesmen can earn a good living, have jobsecurity and can easily start up their own business with little investment needed.
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:22 pm

Can I please clear up one point. I understand this thread was created to discuss weather it is better achieve a University degree and work for little or no pay initially to join a company with future high earner prospects.
It is suggested a trade, such as electric, plumbing etc., could be an alternative, with the possible opportunity of working self employed in the future. It was pointed out to achieve this it would be an advantages to undertake additional studies to offer a superior service. and open other opportunities that otherwise would not be available.
Can we please stay on thread, without the jibes. I see no advantage in stone throwing.
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Re: Education

Postby teamoperu » Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:52 pm

chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:
teamoperu wrote:“one of those degrees” is more than just jobs and money, it is a education to expand your knowledge and intellectual capabilities and consciousness.


Do you think that tradesmen don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness?

Just being able to unblock a toilet isn't enough to become a plumber. Plumbing isn't easy as it looks likes. Many plumbers are specialised in central heating systems and airconditioning and cooling systems.

Gasfitters, builders and electricians need a lot of knowledge as well.


So they are uber competent. Which side of the mouth are you using now?

You said above: ¨Today, they are plumber, tomorrow they are electrician, the next day they are bricklayer and if you have a tooteache, they will pull your tooth as well as they claim to be dentist as well. They do anything for money but aren't capable of doing anything properly.¨


I am talking about the real tradesmen. Not the rough traders, haga todos and cowboys.


Really? So are you saying hagos todos don't have intellectual capabilities, knowledge and consciousness. I suspect they do.


The topic is about that professional and qualified tradesmen can earn a good living, have jobsecurity and can easily start up their own business with little investment needed.


Is it? Then why did you state "Nowadays, it's better to learn a trade than getting one of those degrees." Please prove that nowadays that is better and without bad mouthing Peruvian workers.
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Re: Education

Postby street legal » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:02 pm

This talk of education reminds me of an incident involving an overweight friend of mine.
He was complaining to the guidance counselor about having to take so many courses unrelated to his major.
The guidance counselor told him that the courses were necessary to make him a well rounded student.
My friend then pointed to his rotund belly and commented, "I already am a well rounded student". :D
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Re: Education

Postby sbaustin » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:05 am

Chi chi, you take money from your country's unemployment welfare system because you can't get a job yet you perform a job that doesn't require a degree. Don't you think your personal experience goes against your opening statement or is it the rule doesn't really apply to your situation?

All the Peruvians I know that have advanced professional degrees all have great jobs, make decent money and are in relatively high demand. Most of the Peruvians I know that don't have degrees struggle with menial jobs for the most part even if they are involved in a so called trade. The only exception which has little to do with a degree would be the business owners. If you can launch a successful business it doesn't make much difference if you have a degree or not.

As a practical example a friend of mine (Peruvian), from a poor family, got their MBA in a good university in Costa Rica.. They took out a loan for about $50K USD. Now, it seems like a lot but when you get a job in Peru making $4500USD/mo that debt can be payed off in two years especially if you still live with your parents and watch your expenses.
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:55 am

The facts speak for themselves.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gap-betw ... ate-2011-2

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

It is always good to reinforce statements with fact.
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:20 am

Trade people make more money than we think because a lot of the work is done cash in hand and not declared to the tax office.

Fair play to them.
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:28 am

sbaustin wrote:Chi chi, you take money from your country's unemployment welfare system because you can't get a job yet you perform a job that doesn't require a degree. Don't you think your personal experience goes against your opening statement or is it the rule doesn't really apply to your situation?


If people live off wellfare benefits then it's because they are entitled to it. It's not a crime to live off wellfare benefits.

There aren't simply enough jobs for everyone.
People that work full time should go working part-time so that the unemployed also get the chance to work.
Higher taxes for the full time workers and low taxes for the part time workers.

I would like to get a job as well but then I hear that some people have two jobs. It's not fair. They steal my job.
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:16 pm

chi chi wrote:Trade people make more money than we think because a lot of the work is done cash in hand and not declared to the tax office.

Fair play to them.


It is a known fact some people live off undeclared income, but I am yet to meet a wealth entrepreneur who lives solely on this type of income. I am sure the IRS would soon catch up with them.

Could you also explain why this is of any relevance to a tradesman who has not bothered to achieve a good level of education.
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Re: Education

Postby ironchefchris » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:25 pm

MrEd wrote:adrian Thorne
Something does not add up in your facts. According to the facts if you add up the categories there are only a total of 134,936 people over 25 in the work force in a country of over 300 1million people. Is that true?

The chart clearly states "Numbers in thousands." I didn't bother to add up all the categories so I can't speak to your accuracy on that figure, but taking the number you came up with, 134,936, and multiplying it by 1,000, you come up with 134,936,000. For the chart to represent 134,936 as "Numbers in thousands it would have been represented as 134.936. I was indoctrinated and brainwashed on how to read charts in school. Do you really believe there are only 134,936 people over the age of 25 in the workforce in the USA?
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:29 pm

MrEd wrote:adrian Thorne
Something does not add up in your facts. According to the facts if you add up the categories there are only a total of 134,936 people over 25 in the work force in a country of over 300 1million people. Is that true?


I would suggest you contact "U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics " who I am sure would be able to help you. I notice these figures appear to be based on the civilian working population over the age of 25 and I would assume does not include retired population.(Note the figure you are quoting has lost three zeros. (134,936,000)
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Re: Education

Postby ironchefchris » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:15 pm

MrEd wrote:Go to college to be well rounded? College is where you go to be indoctrinated and brain washed into good little bleeding heart liberals.

When you cross a bridge, go to a medical doctor, use the services of an accountant or lawyer, take a pharmaceutical product, fly in a plane, enter an underground/water tunnel, etc., would you rather the doctors who treat you, the professionals who may represent you in front of a court of law or the IRS, or the engineers and scientists who design bridges, planes, tunnels, medications, and other products that need to be well and carefully designed, built, and manufactured, be educated beyond a simple high school diploma, or would you prefer to have someone without any higher education but who shares political beliefs (as if they couldn't be indoctrinated and brainwashed by some other institution?) perform these tasks for you?

Me? I have no fear of education or the educated. I like knowing that the team who engineered the plane I might be flying all have advanced degrees in aeronautical engineering and know more about the subject than I ever learned in my high school physics class; that my doctor has several more years of medical education than my high school biology class ever taught me; and that the pharmacists who designed and made my wife's high blood pressure medication have more knowledge of the subject than I learned in my high school chemistry class.
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:53 pm

Sorry Lads you are going off topic so had to delete two posts. Please stay on topic.
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Re: Education

Postby ironchefchris » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:57 pm

MrEd wrote:Go to college to be well rounded? College is where you go to be indoctrinated and brain washed into good little bleeding heart liberals.
MrEd wrote:The topic is about a college education versus working a trade. Not what bridge I will cross, what doctor I will go to or any fear of education.

Sorry, my bad. Was just responding to the off topic post about indoctrination and brainwashing with a response addressing the value of education.
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Re: Education

Postby Guiri » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:53 pm

Are we talking in general or about education in Peru?
The professional education system here is very weak...you can be a certified car mechanic or nurse in 6(!)months and the university system is completely out of wack too , starting with that every Uni has his own tests (which have not much to do what is taught in secondary school)to get in and ending with that some of the known Unis give away certificates for money.
So where to start ??
I think the new University laws is a good beginning but unfortunately its not popular.
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Re: Education

Postby ironchefchris » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:03 pm

MrEd wrote:Which raises another question. How many collage grads work at what they studied at and not a MacDonalds.

I get your point. A degree offers no guarantees of better employment (especially a degree in "collage"), though statistically the odds of having better opportunities are in your favor the more educated you are. I know of this guy whose going on 40 years old son (living in the US) is working at McDonald's last I heard, though he went to an "institute" instead of an actual college or university. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm guessing he didn't go to study burger flipping and fry machine tech.. His education must not have been that good (or something else?) as the poor guy seems to even have trouble spelling his own name, so maybe his working the fry machine is a case of the Peter Principle. The world needs guys to work the fry machine as much as it needs people capable of doing more skilled labor.
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Re: Education

Postby sbaustin » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:53 pm

chi chi wrote:
sbaustin wrote:Chi chi, you take money from your country's unemployment welfare system because you can't get a job yet you perform a job that doesn't require a degree. Don't you think your personal experience goes against your opening statement or is it the rule doesn't really apply to your situation?


If people live off wellfare benefits then it's because they are entitled to it. It's not a crime to live off wellfare benefits.

There aren't simply enough jobs for everyone.
People that work full time should go working part-time so that the unemployed also get the chance to work.
Higher taxes for the full time workers and low taxes for the part time workers.

I would like to get a job as well but then I hear that some people have two jobs. It's not fair. They steal my job.


chi chi, I don't have a problem with your welfare situation or that you take welfare. I was making a more general point that you don't have a college degree, can't find a job, are on welfare, yet you are advocating that people are better off not getting a degree. Now it sounds like you are saying that people should not try to get ahead via their education so that they can just go on welfare? Kind of confusing, and I hope you can clarify it.

You are not correct, there are lots of jobs, the problem is you don't want to work those other jobs which is fine but you probably shouldn't declare how wonderful life is without a degree.

Let me give another practical example, a friend of mine in Peru that is an expat, was an English teacher here although he has a computer engineering degree. He decided to find work within his field and guess what, it took him all of a month to land a job. If he didn't have a degree, it would have been a lot harder and he'd be making 1/3rd or less of his salary probably. I've given two personal anecdotes here in Peru and could go on with others in the USA incurring mass amounts of debt to become lawyers to pay off that debt within 10 years and go on to make a lot of money. If you fail to see why investing in your own education is good, it makes it easier for everyone else that sees this value.
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Re: Education

Postby captcosmic » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:50 pm

I started out with a technical career in the military. Carried on with that for several years after I got out. Then went and got a college degree in engineering, which I have been doing for 20 years now, in several different fields. I still work with technicians, and can pitch in a do technical hands on work, as well as the design work. The main reason I went to engineering, was to progress in my knowledge of electronics and to make more money of course!

Not every college degree is a path to making money. I have a niece who has a degree in anthropology. Where is she working after her $50,000 a year education? In a library making $15 an hour. She is a fine example of choosing the right career path. If you study a technical course in underwater basket weaving and there is no need for them, you are going to go hungry! I don't care how good a weaver you are. Whether technical or college graduate, if you choose the career that is not in demand, you will ending up asking, "Would you like fries with that Big Mac?"
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:04 pm

captcosmic wrote:Not every college degree is a path to making money. I have a niece who has a degree in anthropology. Where is she working after her $50,000 a year education? In a library making $15 an hour. She is a fine example of choosing the right career path. If you study a technical course in underwater basket weaving and there is no need for them, you are going to go hungry! I don't care how good a weaver you are. Whether technical or college graduate, if you choose the career that is not in demand, you will ending up asking, "Would you like fries with that Big Mac?"


Indeed. Some people study philosophy, art, history, economy, management. There isn't a lot of demand for people that studied those subjects and for the few jobvacancies that appear, there are loads of applicants.

If you one of those degrees, then it's hard and expensive to start to work on your own in that field.

Whereas an electrician, plumber, gasfitter, welder, painter, carpenter can start off with a toolbox and a second hand van.
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Re: Education

Postby mammamia » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:28 pm

And how about money vs vocation? What if the girl who chose anthropology as her career loves the subject so much she couldn't even think of studying to become a plumber or welder? Money rules, doesn't it?
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Re: Education

Postby Alan » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:12 pm

mammamia wrote:And how about money vs vocation? What if the girl who chose anthropology as her career loves the subject so much she couldn't even think of studying to become a plumber or welder? Money rules, doesn't it?


If she had to take out a student loan to finance some of the $200,000 she paid to get a degree, that is probaby a sad reality, but yes, point taken.
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:31 am

Alan wrote:
mammamia wrote:And how about money vs vocation? What if the girl who chose anthropology as her career loves the subject so much she couldn't even think of studying to become a plumber or welder? Money rules, doesn't it?


If she had to take out a student loan to finance some of the $200,000 she paid to get a degree, that is probaby a sad reality, but yes, point taken.


Especially if she has to struggle her whole life if she has to pay back that money by stuffing Burittos at Taco Bell earning the mínimum wage.

But she can always marry a plumber or a welder... :lol:
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:37 pm

I don`t know where the student is based, but in England the help is split in to two amounts. 1/ A student grant which is not repayable and 2/ Student loan which is repayable at the rate of 9% of earnings in excess of £21,000 from two years after completion of course. If the earnings are below this figure the loan is not repaid unless the earnings rise to the £21,000 level .

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/overview
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:47 am

adrian Thorne wrote:I don`t know where the student is based, but in England the help is split in to two amounts. 1/ A student grant which is not repayable and 2/ Student loan which is repayable at the rate of 9% of earnings in excess of £21,000 from two years after completion of course. If the earnings are below this figure the loan is not repaid unless the earnings rise to the £21,000 level .

https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/overview


Jobs that pay over the 6.50 quid an hour mínimum wage are hard to come by nowadays so it sounds that few people will pay that loan back.
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:03 am

Therefor if a person undertakes additional studies with the help of a student loan, they can safely say that unless they secure employment in a high paid job of their choice and may be work as a counter assistant in MacDonald's, until the opportunity comes along, they will not have to repay the loan. Not a bad deal.
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Re: Education

Postby chi chi » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:15 am

adrian Thorne wrote:Therefor if a person undertakes additional studies with the help of a student loan, they can safely say that unless they secure employment in a high paid job of their choice and may be work as a counter assistant in MacDonald's, until the opportunity comes along, they will not have to repay the loan. Not a bad deal.


They can also retrain and start working on their own as a brickie, plumber, gasfitter or electrician and fail to declare anything they make over 21000 quid so they still don't have to pay back that loan.
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Re: Education

Postby teamoperu » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:35 pm

chi chi wrote:
adrian Thorne wrote:Therefor if a person undertakes additional studies with the help of a student loan, they can safely say that unless they secure employment in a high paid job of their choice and may be work as a counter assistant in MacDonald's, until the opportunity comes along, they will not have to repay the loan. Not a bad deal.


They can also retrain and start working on their own as a brickie, plumber, gasfitter or electrician and fail to declare anything they make over 21000 quid so they still don't have to pay back that loan.


Are you recommending dishonesty?
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Re: Education

Postby adrian Thorne » Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:38 pm

chi chi wrote:They can also retrain and start working on their own as a brickie, plumber, gasfitter or electrician and fail to declare anything they make over 21000 quid so they still don't have to pay back that loan.


I do not understand the relevance of robbing the inland revenue. Can we please try to keep to the discussion about "Education"
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Re: Education

Postby captcosmic » Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:05 pm

My niece who paid $50,000 did so with scholarships and savings. No student loans. The point was my post however was, if you pick a trade or pay handsomely for an Ivy league school, if you don't choose the right career you won't earn as much as you think. Yes even if it is something you love, if there are no jobs in that field, then you need to seriously think about doing something you can get ahead at in life and not living in your parent's basement.
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Re: Education

Postby mammamia » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:11 pm

captcosmic wrote:My niece who paid $50,000 did so with scholarships and savings. No student loans. The point was my post however was, if you pick a trade or pay handsomely for an Ivy league school, if you don't choose the right career you won't earn as much as you think. Yes even if it is something you love, if there are no jobs in that field, then you need to seriously think about doing something you can get ahead at in life and not living in your parent's basement.


That's an American point of view: get your degree or get a job and get out of my house. Here, in the Spanish speaking world things are a bit different... yes, Peru and LA in general have Americanized to a certain degree but still the family and children in particular are looked upon in a different manner: "living in your parents' basement", especially if you do what you like, isn't considered such a bad thing.

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