Quality of Fruits and Vegetables

[hoyce]

you guys who are posting how awesome the fruits and veggies should know that they only taste awesome because they are not genetically modified, you should also know that one of the primary functions of genetic modification is to remove nearly all strains of pesticides to nearly undetectable levels. peruvian farmers abandoned traditional repellent technologies in the 60's and use pesticides to an unregulated degree that would make western farmers blush.

the fruits and vegetables you are eating have much more toxicity than you could legally buy in any 1st world country. potatoes are among the most toxic vegetables (think french fries) and soft fruits (tomatoes - yes they are a fruit) take the cake for fruits.

fresh water fish are traditionally caught with plant poisons that when spread over 2-4 acres of slow/non moving water will cause the fish to float to the surface within an hour. although i don't support fresh water netting, but i would prefer it to toxic methods.

[tomsax]

There are many subsistence farmers in remote parts of the highland who use no chemical fertilisers or pesticides. Their motivations are just lack of money and the need to minimise risks rather than any ideas of the merits of organic food. A lot of the crops they grow are not available as seeds commercially but have just come down the generations and are naturally resistence to pests and harsh conditions due to natural selection.

But, yes, commercial cropping is something else altogether. Multiples of what is necessary or would be within regulations in other parts of the world is used due to the low tech methods used and because no one is controlling this. I'm not an expert on the risks to people's health but the impact to rivers, for instance in the Andahuaylas region is devastating.

There is also a lack of control on hormone injection to cattle. A lot of cattle in the highlands live solely on natural grasses and crop residues. The cattle are pretty scrawny while in the highlands. Then they get taken by their owners to Lima, or simply bought be Lima dealers and injected with massive amounts of hormones to put on weight as quickly as possible while being kept in holding pens around Lurin. I've talked to cattle owners who are very cynical about it, think it is unhealthy but see it as the only way they can make sufficient profit from cattle. I'm also no expert on the use of growth hormones in cattle but the idea of it is not one I like to think about tucking into a steak.

[mammalu]

I remember as a young girl in LIma, going to the 'chacras' owned by family or friends. It was common to see the special water dispensers for chickens and the water was pink due to the amounts of 'terramicina', which came as a red powder. Terramicina was used to prevent the chickens (hens, poultry) from getting 'moquillo', a common disease. As this wouldn't work on turkeys, they used another type of medicine.

BTW, turkeys were very difficult to raise. Their surroundings had to be very clean and they used to feed them quinoa (not too cold, it had to be room temperature). Now I see they raise them in crowded conditions.

Nobody then would blink and used enormous amounts of antibiotics or other chemicals for animals and plants. I hope this has changed, specially if food is exported. Chilean fruit is randomly tested for any forbidden insecticide/chemicals before entering the US market.

[americorps]

The original comment makes it sound like GM foods are much healthier than non modified foods, however there are a growing number of reasoned and sustained scientific studies showing an entire range of new health problems from GM foods, plus as it is still new to most diets, longer range problems are surely to appear.

Simply exchanging the health damage from pesticides for the health damage of GM foods is irresponsible. Other, more safe options exist to reduce pest problems, maintain quality and do not endanger our environment with forced un natural mutations.

[asgoodasitgets]

you guys who are posting how awesome the fruits and veggies should know that they only taste awesome because they are not genetically modified, you should also know that one of the primary functions of genetic modification is to remove nearly all strains of pesticides to nearly undetectable levels. peruvian farmers abandoned traditional repellent technologies in the 60's and use pesticides to an unregulated degree that would make western farmers blush.

the fruits and vegetables you are eating have much more toxicity than you could legally buy in any 1st world country. potatoes are among the most toxic vegetables (think french fries) and soft fruits (tomatoes - yes they are a fruit) take the cake for fruits.

fresh water fish are traditionally caught with plant poisons that when spread over 2-4 acres of slow/non moving water will cause the fish to float to the surface within an hour. although i don't support fresh water netting, but i would prefer it to toxic methods.

Hi Hoyce. I don't know where you read that GMO foods are designed to stop pesticides - that is not correct. In fact there is already a corn that is genetically modified to contain a pesiticde inside the corn - grown in the plant itself. Insects get killed by eating it, yet it's fed to us.

In countless independent studies - GMO food fed to lab animals results in several consistent results:

- Infertility (usually complete infertility by 3rd generation fed on GMO)

- cancer

- organ failure

Watch the documentary free online called "The World According to Monsanto". Eye opening. The GMO crops they make are, as one element engineered into them, designed to be resistant to their highly toxic "Roundup" pesticide. So the pesticide still goes onto and into the food, the soil, but it is simply that the plant is engineered to resist it, and so does not die (but everything else does). You still get it in the food. Watch the documentary and the lies of Monsanto. Remember, this is a company that brought us Agent Orange.

[asgoodasitgets]

The original comment makes it sound like GM foods are much healthier than non modified foods, however there are a growing number of reasoned and sustained scientific studies showing an entire range of new health problems from GM foods, plus as it is still new to most diets, longer range problems are surely to appear.

Simply exchanging the health damage from pesticides for the health damage of GM foods is irresponsible. Other, more safe options exist to reduce pest problems, maintain quality and do not endanger our environment with forced un natural mutations.

Absolutely. GMO is as patent a false solution as there ever could be! The solution is right here: Organic food. Properly farmed organic food is more successful and safer, healthier and more profitable (as Gaston Acurio pointed out in a recent interview) than their GMO or conventional counterparts. The solution is here, and it doesn't need some corporation to sell us something for it to work, and it doesn't need government sanctioning.

GM foods are engineered to have a dominant gene in them. For example one cross species Salmon that they are releasing into the wild - in one study they determined that it will completely wipe out the natural Salmon within 40 generations.

GMO is genetic suicide, genetic vandalism of the planetary genome that we have inherited. We have a duty to pass it on in at least as good a condition as we found it.

Monsanto has stated at it's opening meeting, the intent is clear: nothing less than total domination of the global food supply AND the global genome. Every living plant, insect, animal, and human. I know that sounds hard to believe - but it's true - and the simple problem is that we must get street wise, and stop assuming our own moral compass is the same as another's. We need to get back a healthy skepticism especially anything that comes from government or corporations (including the corporate, compromised, conflict-of-interest media).

There IS a real solution....

GO ORGANIC!

I'm at the organic markets most weekend in Miraflores. I'm telling you - the cops are hounding that place. They're standing around on the corners watching it, but it's not a friendly "we're watching out for theives" vibe, its' a menacing one. No doubt they will try to shut that little market down, such a "threat" is a free people going to a market and buying from growers directly not through their "chain" (chains are for slaves right?) stores.

Now, if you think that sounds far fetched - then I encourage you to google up "Rawesome Raid" and check out the FDA, CDC and sheriffs raiding a raw food co op. It's *insane* and so absurd - and in America "land of the free" right? Go check it out.

[Alan]

I'm at the organic markets most weekend in Miraflores. I'm telling you - the cops are hounding that place. They're standing around on the corners watching it, but it's not a friendly "we're watching out for theives" vibe, its' a menacing one. No doubt they will try to shut that little market down, such a "threat" is a free people going to a market and buying from growers directly not through their "chain" (chains are for slaves right?) stores.

I have been to the Parque Reducto market a number of times and have never seen a menacing cop or even anything close. Not to say that you didn´t see them... but I disagree that they are "hounding" the place.

Alan

[rama0929]

Now, if you think that sounds far fetched - then I encourage you to google up "Rawesome Raid" and check out the FDA, CDC and sheriffs raiding a raw food co op. It's *insane* and so absurd - and in America "land of the free" right? Go check it out.

They should've gotten the proper permits. Rawesome is not above the law.

[asgoodasitgets]

Rama - they are not a public store. They are a private co op. What the cops did was absolutely illegal.

Please read this and come back to the discussion.

http://www.NaturalNews.com/033255_Rawes ... cense.html

[asgoodasitgets]

I'm at the organic markets most weekend in Miraflores. I'm telling you - the cops are hounding that place. They're standing around on the corners watching it, but it's not a friendly "we're watching out for theives" vibe, its' a menacing one. No doubt they will try to shut that little market down, such a "threat" is a free people going to a market and buying from growers directly not through their "chain" (chains are for slaves right?) stores.

I have been to the Parque Reducto market a number of times and have never seen a menacing cop or even anything close. Not to say that you didn´t see them... but I disagree that they are "hounding" the place.

Alan

They used to have music there, it was a real good vibe, now the cops say that bothers the neighbours - at 10am. I live in a pretty upmarket area at the moment, and we get parties most weekends that go until 2 - 4 am, very very loud very annoying, and no cops do anything about that - and nor would they. Now they are harassing customers, I saw one lady the other week arguing with one of the cops because he told her she could not eat something she bought while walking on the street. Tell me if in Lima that is not harassment - I mean would a cop do that anywhere else in the city? Isn't there some real crime out there...

Make no mistake, big corporations and those who work for them through the government jobs they have hate happy little markets like that. People buying food from each other - direct from growers is a threat to their total domination. Pretty soon people will wake up and realise that the food there is much better than the crummy chain (slaves have chains right?) stores. They don't want free markets. Especially not happy ones.

[sbaustin]

I think the term food quality can be different things. I know in the US thh fruit seems much bigger juicier etc but maybe that's due to pesticides and genetic manipulation or maybe the good stuff is exported (or imported if you live there) to the USA. Take bananas my Peruvian gf always comments on how much better they are in the US. Same with apples and plenty of other fruits. I definitely am ignorant when it comes to the minutiae of the global fruit trade and specifically what actually ends up in front of me.

I concur with Alan. I've never seen a menacing cop at the organic food fair at parque reducto.

[rama0929]

Rama - they are not a public store. They are a private co op. What the cops did was absolutely illegal.

Please read this and come back to the discussion.

http://www.NaturalNews.com/033255_Rawes ... cense.html

Compare the behavior of Rawesome to the hundreds of other co-ops in the US.

It's nice that you support Rawesome and Natural News and the things they believe in, but that still doesn't put them above the law.

Get the proper permits, keep in compliance, and pay your taxes. You'll avoid a majority of your problems that way.

[rama0929]

I concur with Alan. I've never seen a menacing cop at the organic food fair at parque reducto.

Haven't seen them @ Caqueta, Magdalena, Ayacucho or Huaral either, though like Alan and others have said, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist.

[sbaustin]

it doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist.

Rama, you are entirely correct. It would be impossible to state that menacing police never exist in any place or even that what others perceive as menacing we may not. I was only documenting what I observed on the 20 or so occasions I've been to that organic fair. This could make an interesting thread (probably a new one) with regards to how people perceive the police here in Peru with regards to their specific experiences and interactions.

[americorps]

My ex boss loves that place and we would go there everytime she comes to down, that would be about once a quarter for the last 4 years, or about 16 times. My experience has always been tranquil and pleasant.

[asgoodasitgets]

I think the term food quality can be different things. I know in the US thh fruit seems much bigger juicier etc but maybe that's due to pesticides and genetic manipulation or maybe the good stuff is exported (or imported if you live there) to the USA.

I concur with Alan. I've never seen a menacing cop at the organic food fair at parque reducto.

I'm just saying what I saw. Understand you haven't. My point is, first they take away the music, now they're harassing people for eating on the sidewalk like there is no real crime in Lima, Peru. What next. I point to rawesome foods raid as an example that just when you think something so insane could not happen, it does. Before anyone else says "but they weren't licensed" please read the link I posted it explains my point of view on that from a freedom / common law / principled point of view exactly without me having to retype it. Bottom line, the cops were acting outside of law (they're not God you know) and they broke even the lawless warrant they obtained as well, and destroyed thousands of dollars of perfectly good private property, and stole cash and equipment.

[rama0929]

I point to rawesome foods raid as an example that just when you think something so insane could not happen, it does.

It's not insane.

They're enforcing laws on the books. If they enforce the laws people complain about the gov't ("they're doing too much!"). If they don't enforce the laws and there's an outbreak of e.coli/samonella/whatever, people complain about the gov't ("they're not doing enough!").

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, if that's going to be the case they may as well err on the side of caution.

[sbaustin]

I'm just saying what I saw. Understand you haven't. My point is, first they take away the music, now they're harassing people for eating on the sidewalk like there is no real crime in Lima, Peru.

If you want to talk about more effecient use of police force there are plenty of examples but probably another thread. I just don't want someone to read this and be discouraged from going to the fair with the expectation that they will be harassed by the cops because in my experience that's not going to happen.

I agree about people's natural rights (protection, etc) and such but this forum just isn't a good place for me to get into it.

[asgoodasitgets]

I'm just saying what I saw. Understand you haven't. My point is, first they take away the music, now they're harassing people for eating on the sidewalk like there is no real crime in Lima, Peru.

If you want to talk about more effecient use of police force there are plenty of examples but probably another thread. I just don't want someone to read this and be discouraged from going to the fair with the expectation that they will be harassed by the cops because in my experience that's not going to happen.

I agree about people's natural rights (protection, etc) and such but this forum just isn't a good place for me to get into it.

Oh yeah totally - the market is awesome, can't recommend it highly enough. I see what you mean now - no I don't mean to give that impression either. I'm just saying, with the things going on in the world, don't be surprised if one day they just turn up and say ok we're shutting this down. That's what I'm concerned about, and I see it as not far fetched at all.

[asgoodasitgets]

I point to rawesome foods raid as an example that just when you think something so insane could not happen, it does.

It's not insane.

They're enforcing laws on the books. If they enforce the laws people complain about the gov't ("they're doing too much!"). If they don't enforce the laws and there's an outbreak of e.coli/samonella/whatever, people complain about the gov't ("they're not doing enough!").

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, if that's going to be the case they may as well err on the side of caution.

I'm sorry Rama but did you read the article I posted? Even briefly?

The are NOT enforcing laws on the books, they are breaking the laws - the cops are breaking the laws.

That co op is a private co op. Do you support private property? It's no different than if you and I both bought a cow, and then we contracted with a farmer to take care of it. Then we went down to the farm once a week to collect OUR milk. half for you and half for me. We are not selling it to each other. Its' OUR cow. what would you do if the CDC, FDA, and the cops show up and pour it all down the drain and haul you to jail, charge you for conspiracy and some environmental laws, smack a gag order on you so you can't tell your side to the public. All because in the end they want to get some tax money off you that they are not entitled to. When are people going to wake up the government anywhere is not god, they don't make the sun shine or the grass grow. They're people and they are corruptible in a myriad of ways both acutely and chronically. That's why we have laws : to protect us from government and big business as well as the door to door con man. It's like if they are saying you are selling your apples because the apple tree on your property dropped them on the ground. It's asinine. I doubt seriously you would debate this with me if you first got informed on the facts: please do so we can agree on property rights and the right to contract. Otherwise I'm moving to China I think they'll appreciate these radical terrorist ideas there better. Even then the cops broke their own warrant. It never said they could destroy all their property: it only said they could take samples. SAMPLES> They poured thousands of dollars down the drain. If we don't start standing up for honest average people and stop defending the government there'll be no one left to stand up for us when our time comes.

Please, I beg you read the article. Come back and tell me where it is legally or factually incorrect. I don't see it. Please show me. Otherwise we are going around in circles.

That co op is NOT a shop, it is not open to the public, not at all. It's not under their jurisdiction. The people who own that bought a share. Or are you saying dividends from share holding in a corporation are now not allowed. Mike Adams is right: the very essence of private contracting: the very essence of the western world and the free markets is being brought into question here. They have no jurisdiction over private property, ONLY commercial sales. And they flushed the milk down the drain man... what!

The people who own that produce who were simply partaking of their own property were cracked down on hard by the government because they are finding a way around the corporate governance system by privately contracting and the government wants to stamp that out. It's as anti freedom as you get. Next step down on the ladder is shooting people in the back of the head putting them in ditches. Think it can't happen again? Neither did the Germans. They were calling anti-Hitler writers conspiracy theorists. The soviets went so far as to say that anyone who opposed government was mentally ill - and they locked them up in a mental asylum. That's what governments do.

Why mention all this here: well it seems I keep getting tempted OT again and again for one thing or another, but truly, this all applies here which is why I posted it. If it can happen in the US, it can happen here. Eyes open!

[rama0929]

*sigh*

my give up...

[renodante]

*sigh*

my give up...

reached my limit today too.

[asgoodasitgets]

Yeah, private property is tough for the government to understand too.

[asgoodasitgets]

First they came for the raw milk
and I didn't speak out because I drank no raw milk.

Then they came for the non-GMO farmers
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a farmer.

Next they came for the home gardeners
and I didn't speak out because I grew no gardens.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak for me.

[rama0929]

Yeah, private property is tough for the government to understand too.

You don't seem to understand it either.

I can put up all the "private property" signs I want, it doesn't mean that I can get away with behavior that isn't in compliance to the law.

Obviously, you think different. Nothing wrong with that. Agree to disagree.

[asgoodasitgets]

Yeah, private property is tough for the government to understand too.

You don't seem to understand it either.

I can put up all the "private property" signs I want, it doesn't mean that I can get away with behavior that isn't in compliance to the law.

Obviously, you think different. Nothing wrong with that. Agree to disagree.

How did they break the law by drinking milk from their own cow?

[rama0929]

Yeah, private property is tough for the government to understand too.

You don't seem to understand it either.

I can put up all the "private property" signs I want, it doesn't mean that I can get away with behavior that isn't in compliance to the law.

Obviously, you think different. Nothing wrong with that. Agree to disagree.

How did they break the law by drinking milk from their own cow?

Where were the cows kept? Were they in an open pasture, or were they in a building? If they were in a building, were the proper permits available? How are these cows handled? How is their product handled? If people are "sharing" this cow, how are shares bought and paid for? How is money made? People who "share" their milk, are they redistributing it? Keeping it for themselves? Has anyone gotten sick from consumption of these products? Products under gov't oversight are treated different from products that aren't.

So, based on that last paragraph, we have local govts, we have state govt's, and we may have federal govt's interested in your little co-op.

What you don't realize is that unless you have all your i's dotted and your t's crossed, you're going to run into problems. It's obvious to everyone that this co-op was set up as a work around. People don't like when you do that; they tend to think you're hiding something when you do. That attracts even more attention.

Want to play games, be cute? Make sure you have your stuff together. Rawsome didn't. Too bad for them.

[falconagain]

Yeah, private property is tough for the government to understand too.

You don't seem to understand it either.

I can put up all the "private property" signs I want, it doesn't mean that I can get away with behavior that isn't in compliance to the law.

Obviously, you think different. Nothing wrong with that. Agree to disagree.

How did they break the law by drinking milk from their own cow?

Where were the cows kept? Were they in an open pasture, or were they in a building? If they were in a building, were the proper permits available? How are these cows handled? How is their product handled? If people are "sharing" this cow, how are shares bought and paid for? How is money made? People who "share" their milk, are they redistributing it? Keeping it for themselves? Has anyone gotten sick from consumption of these products? Products under gov't oversight are treated different from products that aren't.

So, based on that last paragraph, we have local govts, we have state govt's, and we may have federal govt's interested in your little co-op.

What you don't realize is that unless you have all your i's dotted and your t's crossed, you're going to run into problems. It's obvious to everyone that this co-op was set up as a work around. People don't like when you do that; they tend to think you're hiding something when you do. That attracts even more attention.

Want to play games, be cute? Make sure you have your stuff together. Rawsome didn't. Too bad for them.

Have you even watched the videos in youtube about Rawsome. Actually
they complied with all government law. But the government twisted the
law just to close them down. All the questions that you made were properly
addressed in the video. How can you critizice somebody without evaluating
the available information ?

[rama0929]

Have you even watched the videos in youtube about Rawsome. Actually
they complied with all government law. But the government twisted the
law just to close them down. All the questions that you made were properly
addressed in the video. How can you critizice somebody without evaluating
the available information ?

The gov't twisted the law? Means Rawesome didn't step up their game. Sucks to be them. I mean it's pretty common knowledge that there has been a focus on raw milk distributors.

Evaluating available information? Like people who've gotten sick from raw milk? Or does that not count? Keep posting heavily slanted, rhetoric-y stuff, and I'll throw it back at ya in the other direction

[asgoodasitgets]

Have you even watched the videos in youtube about Rawsome. Actually
they complied with all government law. But the government twisted the
law just to close them down. All the questions that you made were properly
addressed in the video. How can you critizice somebody without evaluating
the available information ?

The gov't twisted the law? Means Rawesome didn't step up their game. Sucks to be them. I mean it's pretty common knowledge that there has been a focus on raw milk distributors.

Evaluating available information? Like people who've gotten sick from raw milk? Or does that not count? Keep posting heavily slanted, rhetoric-y stuff, and I'll throw it back at ya in the other direction

1. Research about raw milk, and from scientific, not "rhetoric-y" government sources. Doctors used to prescribe raw milk for flus and things, because it balances intestinal flora. It's **healthy** that's why people want to drink it. It means people are less dependent on pharmaceuticals. You know? As in it might catch on and lose a multi trillion dollar industry some money? They have pretty big sway penning laws in most countries, not least Peru by the way... "nastisol" - what a joke. "Yes it's nasti" lol. Sorry but I hate: HATE pharmaceutical companies, they were instrumental in killing my father. They peddle drugs here like it's candy and Peru is famous for it's natural products. It's the sick care industry in Peru. I saw a poster the other day that was like "Yeah, every one is going to get cancer at some time in their life, so that's why you need to buy this insurance". WHY is everyone getting cancer? And they're "clamping down" on "raw milk". Excuse me while I laugh and cry: It's like how the insurance companies around the world write the health care laws (that's a fact) then politicians put it into law. Corporate governance also-known-as fascism. So we take that now do we? Especially in America?? I don't think that's right - just be aware that what you appear to advocating is by definition textbook fascism: corporations and government merged in opposition to the people. Hitler used government to take over corporations: this time corporations have taken over government, same thing. Mix flour and water, or water and flour: same thing. If we don't say no to fascism - wherever we live - what are we anymore?

2. Judging from what you're saying, the government never breaks the law. People should bend over backwards twice, twist their pelvis out, warp their legs over their heads and drink milk through their nose while getting unnecessary chemo and sticking their fingers in their ears if government demands it. Indentured servitude is the pleasurable benefit of freedom? Put another way, if government made a law that you could not breathe any more, would you comply? Or if government said you had to murder your parents twice on Sunday, would you NOT say that was rediculous, immoral, evil and satanic and REFUSE to comply. So there *is* a point where you will say "enough is enough" and at least passively resist is there not? Of course there is. I'm being absurd to illustrate the absurdity of what it seems you have said: that anything government says is automatically right and we MUST take it as duty.

The notion that they are "escaping" justice or "the law"... besides the fact that *even* per the laws of state, feds, and whatever else, they have broken *nothing*, I say this: from one of our greatest benefactors in the west and indeed the world, whose words, spirit and legacy we have all profited off immensely and enjoyed great privilege and recognition of rights because of: "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all" Thomas Jefferson. And this "Disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God (your creator who empowered you with life force a mind, a heart and self determination)". So those nasty extremists "sneaking around" and "finding loopholes" (not true) to drink their own milk (those evil b******s!!! ) are really the spirit of freedom whatever country they're in. Bear in mind the same force that is "cracking down" on evil "raw milk" is also giving money and weapons to "freedom fighters" in Libya! but pouring raw milk down the drain.... my goodness. If that's not a recipe for cognitive dissonance...

You know, I think there is an old wives tale about some revolution and a 1776 that had something to do with over bearing garbage from other *humans* not messengers of God, just average humans, and some other guys who said "nah, not taking it". Something to do with unlawful search and siezure was established, something to do with private property, but it eludes me just now.

The cops poured thousands of dollars of property down the drain - holy cow! - their warrant only permitted *samples* be taken... how can you possibly justify that. Gag! orders. Over spilt milk!!!

the CDC!!

200,000 people die in the US alone every year from correctly prescribed medications. hundreds of thousands from heart disease, many more from cancer, cancer is epidemic! diabetes! And they're going after raw milk, supplements, vitamins and minerals, herbs, and you say "they're coming for raw milk, everyone knows that" but you don't ask "WHY are they coming for raw milk". *****Because its healthy and they don't want you to be healthy because they work for the pharmaceutical companies!**** Literally: legislators, politicians, and regulator positions are FILLED with ex pharmaceutical, ex monsanto etc employees. That's what money can buy you: governments. Really how much do you think it costs to buy a whole government - $10 billion? Either through lobbying or direct pay offs - although lobbying will do the trick I would say (unless the people of the respective nation are right behind an issue and street smart about it). Arrogance says "not in America": street smarts says "Oh yes" and history and every other nation on Earth says "Yeah, they did it here too". It's called revolving door and the same thing happens in wall street. Corporate governance is about tying the little average people and small businesses up in so much red tape they can't survive. Then they say "see, you lost out in the free market". But it's not free market. But I digress: I repeat, they broke no law, it's their private property, they sold nothing, they simply drank milk from their own cow. It's on record. Look it up. But no, they needed cops, CDC, FDA, to pour millk down the drain. Hitler said it wasn't regulation to be a Jew. people make stuff up. Doesn't make it right, moral, or lawful. Dangerous, evil, terrorist, al qaeda, IED making MILK. This, in a country that was founded and built by people who did it thanks to being able to drink raw milk.

Sheesh...

How OT is this? Too OT? What can one do but defend the point!? The point was to point this out as an example of something ridiculous and absurd, and we have the, no offence personally intended but in my opinion udderly (sic) ridiculous and absurd and indefensible being defended, so we must go back to square one, and sort that out before being able to continue the discussion.

All in good faith though.

[rama0929]

Sorry but I hate: HATE pharmaceutical companies, they were instrumental in killing my father.

And there you have it.

Sorry about your father, but you know what, there are people that pharma companies have helped. Shocking, I know.

There have people that have died using either method of care.

[renodante]

there are people that pharma companies have helped. Shocking, I know.

There have people that have died using either method of care.

yep, it works both ways. not a fan of pharmaceutical companies at all, but some of what they peddle is life saving. and when you're REALLY sick, like, about to die sick, usually you need the mainstream stuff. "western medicine" was largely developed on the battlefields, many of the major innovations came via wars out of necessity, western medicine is the king of shock. so, if i'm dying, don't give me herbs, rush me to the hospital, please.

and yeah, plenty of people have died self medicating with natural medicine, or following the advice of "holistic healers" who had no business diagnosing anyone of anything.

[renodante]

perfect example: when i first visited Peru, i came down with a horrid case of Montezuma's Revenge. i was really into acupuncture, holistic medicine, etc, and my friend, an acupuncturist, was with me. i was against using anti biotics and usually just tough out colds and flus (still do to this day), so instead of taking antibiotics, i was taking herbal stuff and tinctures he had with him, and that he recommended we buy. i got sicker, and sicker and sicker.by the time we got to machu pichu i was practically green, i seriously felt like i was going to die. i was getting worse and worse by the hour. that night at agua caliente, i finally broke down and got a doctor, and he put me on a stack of antibiotics. within about 13 hours i felt 100% better. if i continued to refuse treatment and stuck with whatever crap the acupuncturist was confidently giving me, i may very well have died.

[asgoodasitgets]

renodante: sounds like what you needed was a big dose of vitamin d3, magnesium citrate and probiotics (like the kind raw milk provides).

You simply didn't have the right medicine. Just because it was natural or not makes no difference. In other words, sounds like you got a false negative on natural medicine.

I was waiting for someone to say "like when you're near dead".

Have a look at what's used in heart attack protocol, near death protocol. What do they give people - what are their "miracle treatments" after-all when fake doesn't cut the mustard. Go find out you'll be surprised... might actually be those natural things...

Good example: for years pharmaceutical has peddled the lie that aspirin is "good" for heart patients, that it "thins the blood". Well it turns out that it's very BAD for the heart. The reason that whole urban myth came about is because one of the original studies on aspirin used a buffer - it was from memory about 90% buffer, 10% aspirin (aspirin incidentally is derived from the bark of the willow tree, but it's an isolated compound not the whole medicine), and the buffer they used was **magnesium**. Turns out the magnesium is what was causing people to not heart attack. In fact it's extremely important for many bodily processes. From what I've seen across the board, heart disease / heart issues always are present with a magnesium deficiency - and supplementation either with magnesium rich foods or a good supplement always help.

And hey, there are plenty of quacks in natural medicine too, I've met some - boy have I - total con artists. But the real crime tipping the scales on pure funds ripped off per con is big pharma.

Here's a good video of one farmer exposing the nonsense that raw milk is a danger... off milk? rotten food? nobody can eat that, but fresh, raw milk as a danger requiring police raids, it's so absurd, it's off the charts... to me it's a sign of how dumb and dangerous government can be and we should never assume we've seen the worst.

http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=9455A4A6F ... C2F07991F3

[asgoodasitgets]

Sorry but I hate: HATE pharmaceutical companies, they were instrumental in killing my father.

And there you have it.

Sorry about your father, but you know what, there are people that pharma companies have helped. Shocking, I know.

There have people that have died using either method of care.

That depends on what your definition of "help" is... If you mean enable them to continue existing, yeah, they do that a lot, but to actually restore full healthy - bountiful health - and remove dependency from drugs - rarely have I EVER seen any pharmaceutical product do that. Take simple antibiotics - they kill all intestinal flora in the body including the good stuff, this then paves the way for new bad ones to take root - and it also promotes superbugs if you've ever studied how that works through accelerated selection due to using antibiotics. So then you need MORE antibiotics, and you are more likely to get sick again later. Pro biotics on the other hand are not a patented drug, they are enzymes / bacteria existing in nature, either cultivated into a supplement or taken in food form, like raw milk, yoghurts and fermented prodocts etc, they displace bad bacteria by sheer numbers. 90% of the immune system is in the gut.

Look, I don't have the energy to go into big pharma right now, it's a big debate... but you can either take me on my word and go do your own investigation or not, that's up to you, but I'll tell you from where I'm sitting, big pharma has absolutely undoubtedly, in concert with big agra, removing nutrients from the foods, caused at least 99 times more death suffering and misery than it has 1 time caused a miracle healing. At least. That may sound extreme, but again, do the research on all sides of the debate and weigh up the balance of probabilities. That's what I come up with.

The fact that they are actively suppressing multiple cancer cures alone disqualifies them of any credibility whatsoever.

This guy has the cure to cancer:

burzynskiclinic.com

And there are many others I've heard of that I haven't verified but I post the above link because it IS verified. The "powers that be" couldn't stop him. There is the cure to cancer. Watch the documentary they tried everything. Of COURSE they don't want a cure to cancer, they're making TRILLIONS off it in the long term, hundreds of billions in the short term.

[renodante]

renodante: sounds like what you needed was a big dose of vitamin d3, magnesium citrate and probiotics (like the kind raw milk provides).

You simply didn't have the right medicine. Just because it was natural or not makes no difference. In other words, sounds like you got a false negative on natural medicine.

no dude, i was given 2 of the things you listed. what i needed was antibiotics, and when i took them, i got better. when i took d3 in megadoses (he had a vial of it with him "in case he caught something") and probiotics, nothing happened, i just continued to get more and more ill.

"you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? medicine!"-Tim Minchin, Storm

sums it all up perfectly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1yxDWxU ... re=related

[renodante]

Take simple antibiotics - they kill all intestinal flora in the body including the good stuff, this then paves the way for new bad ones to take root -

which is why doctors always tell you to take probiotics and eat yogurt when you get off the antibiotic regimen.

and it also promotes superbugs if you've ever studied how that works through accelerated selection due to using antibiotics. So then you need MORE antibiotics, and you are more likely to get sick again later

that's a major downside, but it doesn't happen in your body every time you take antibiotics, and it doesn't always happen. it does happen though, over time, but it's a tradeoff. i'll take a superbug later they'll have to invent a new antibiotic for over being deathly ill now.

[Polaron]

The problem with big pharma is not the worthwhile medicines they produce but instead the ones that are overpriced and designed to treat conditions that some people consider to be non-existent. An even bigger problem is their unmitigated greed.

[rama0929]

Look, I don't have the energy to go into big pharma right now, it's a big debate...

Save bandwith and electrons; I'll give you the cliffnotes of how the "debate" will go

asgoodasitgets: posts slanted articles to prove his point
rama0929: posts slanted articles to prove his point

Round and round we go, with some anecdotes to bolster either stance with nary an end in sight. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and it's not as cut and dried as you would like it to be.

[Polaron]

Look, I don't have the energy to go into big pharma right now, it's a big debate...

Save bandwith and electrons; I'll give you the cliffnotes of how the "debate" will go

asgoodasitgets: posts slanted articles to prove his point
rama0929: posts slanted articles to prove his point

Round and round we go, with some anecdotes to bolster either stance with nary an end in sight. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and it's not as cut and dried as you would like it to be.

You forgot the "tiger by the tail" part Rama.

[renodante]

The problem with big pharma is not the worthwhile medicines they produce but instead the ones that are overpriced and designed to treat conditions that some people consider to be non-existent. An even bigger problem is their unmitigated greed.

yeah it's a mixed bag. like most things in life.

[asgoodasitgets]

renodante: sounds like what you needed was a big dose of vitamin d3, magnesium citrate and probiotics (like the kind raw milk provides).

You simply didn't have the right medicine. Just because it was natural or not makes no difference. In other words, sounds like you got a false negative on natural medicine.

no dude, i was given 2 of the things you listed. what i needed was antibiotics, and when i took them, i got better. when i took d3 in megadoses (he had a vial of it with him "in case he caught something") and probiotics, nothing happened, i just continued to get more and more ill.

"you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? medicine!"-Tim Minchin, Storm

sums it all up perfectly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1yxDWxU ... re=related

Watched the link: agreed with about half of it... I don't know what your specific case was but I'll tell you this, I have seen homeopathics work where multiple antibiotic doses did not, on serious infections. I don't know the full details of your specific situation, antibiotics do often work, but often studies have shown their positive effect is as much a product of placebo as is claimed of their natural alternatives. In your specific case what was the doses you took. 400ius of D3 won't do it, I'm talking at least 2000 to 10,000 iu's per day, as for magnesium I'm not up on the amounts, but magnesium is even more important, and with probiotics quality can vary. You say you were in Peru? I've not seen any product that was anywhere near useful in this country. But you're right in the end: do what works I agree, and I don't want to be on the back foot saying antibiotics don't have their place in acute circumstances and that they have not saved lives and do not... but they are massively over used. Perhaps in your case, it was the right thing: in fact you say it was, who am I to say it wasn't... but you're talking about logic, science, truth, and the point is, to really get down to the bottom of something it requires a proper examination. In any case, most pharmaceuticals today have diverged from antibiotics so drastically you really can't compare the two strains of medicine - if we're taking seratonin reuptake inhibitors, (crack in a precise dose), or statin drugs and other total frauds, it's a whole other story. But over use of antibiotics is what is breeded superbugs that could be a very serious problem.

I forgot to mention colloidal silver in my "prescription"

As for homeopathics; they actually do have proven double blind placebo controlled confirmations of working versus vaccines, which do not. I saw a study done from memory in the Caribbean where they used homeopathic on a huge number of people over 10,000 done on diseases that they had problems spreading after hurricanes, and I believe it was the biggest study of it's kind and they had results of 80%+ success rate. Contrast that with the seasonal flu vaccine success rate of about 1% (99% failure) which is no success at all... that was a Cochraine institute study of pharmaceutical companies own studies collated.

The part I agree most with Mr Minchin is where he says science is the search for truth. My whole problem with the pharmaceutical industry is that they stifle truth, abandon science, embrace faith (like with vaccines particularly) and insist on doing the stupidest things bold facedly in the face of evidence that what they are doing is not working (like chemo) and where safer, far more effective *proven* treatments exist. They seem to do this for political reasons, and of course, the dollar. And yes, Storm is right there, pharmaceuticals ARE stifling natural medicine. We have to remember that the Rockefeller and Ford foundation took over medical education and medical licensing about 100 years ago. Since then all research has been directed in the direction that the money masters wanted: and that was primarily into pharmaceuticals: products. Before that they effectively used salts, minerals like magnesium and iodine.

What's the best emergency room treatment for radiation poisoning? It's things like magnesium, bentonite clay, iodine, seaweed / kelp, spirulina, chlorella. That's the stuff that they turn to when you can't play around... What does that tell you about the healing capabilities of those?

As for energetic medicine - it's absolutely a real phenomenon, science has already confirmed that consciousness plays an integral part in quantum physics experiments: the mere act of observation changes the outcome of the experiment. Tim Minchin has his views on that, but he hasn't looked at all the research.

Mike Adams who some people on this board think is an uncredible journalist and researcher because he sells things so that he can stay in business (the horror) wrote a superb article and made a video where he absolutely tears apart into tiny pieces the pathetic theories of Steven Hawking - theories that the majority of unthinking scientific community in the world who adhere to those stupid views have absorbed and adopted without question.

So yes, I'm for logic, ethics, principle, if that's science, count me in. Pharmaceutical companies: that's not science, (by and large), it's fraud, intimidation, monopoly, cartelism. Science is just a label and a vehicle for their fraud as far as I can tell.

[asgoodasitgets]

Look, I don't have the energy to go into big pharma right now, it's a big debate...

Save bandwith and electrons; I'll give you the cliffnotes of how the "debate" will go

asgoodasitgets: posts slanted articles to prove his point
rama0929: posts slanted articles to prove his point

Round and round we go, with some anecdotes to bolster either stance with nary an end in sight. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and it's not as cut and dried as you would like it to be.

You guys; the argument isn't won by sitting on the fence.

Name one article I've posted that contained a key piece of information that was untrue, citations proving otherwise please.

[rama0929]

Look, I don't have the energy to go into big pharma right now, it's a big debate...

Save bandwith and electrons; I'll give you the cliffnotes of how the "debate" will go

asgoodasitgets: posts slanted articles to prove his point
rama0929: posts slanted articles to prove his point

Round and round we go, with some anecdotes to bolster either stance with nary an end in sight. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and it's not as cut and dried as you would like it to be.

You guys; the argument isn't won by sitting on the fence.

Name one article I've posted that contained a key piece of information that was untrue, citations proving otherwise please.

Are you familiar with the Rashomon effect? That's the reason I posted

Save bandwith and electrons; I'll give you the cliffnotes of how the "debate" will go

asgoodasitgets: posts slanted articles to prove his point
rama0929: posts slanted articles to prove his point

Round and round we go, with some anecdotes to bolster either stance with nary an end in sight. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and it's not as cut and dried as you would like it to be.

Right in this very thread, we have an instance of a poster who disagrees with your methodology and has an anecdote. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, as I am sure there are others who feel the same way you do.

This isn't about winning an argument, it's about having a discussion. If you want to argue, well, then go right ahead, because what it boils down to is this;

yeah it's a mixed bag. like most things in life.

[asgoodasitgets]

Look, I don't have the energy to go into big pharma right now, it's a big debate...

Save bandwith and electrons; I'll give you the cliffnotes of how the "debate" will go

asgoodasitgets: posts slanted articles to prove his point
rama0929: posts slanted articles to prove his point

Round and round we go, with some anecdotes to bolster either stance with nary an end in sight. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and it's not as cut and dried as you would like it to be.

You guys; the argument isn't won by sitting on the fence.

Name one article I've posted that contained a key piece of information that was untrue, citations proving otherwise please.

Are you familiar with the Rashomon effect? That's the reason I posted

Save bandwith and electrons; I'll give you the cliffnotes of how the "debate" will go

asgoodasitgets: posts slanted articles to prove his point
rama0929: posts slanted articles to prove his point

Round and round we go, with some anecdotes to bolster either stance with nary an end in sight. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and it's not as cut and dried as you would like it to be.

Right in this very thread, we have an instance of a poster who disagrees with your methodology and has an anecdote. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, as I am sure there are others who feel the same way you do.

This isn't about winning an argument, it's about having a discussion. If you want to argue, well, then go right ahead, because what it boils down to is this;

yeah it's a mixed bag. like most things in life.

RAND Corp would be proud of you Rama. - No conclusive stance, everything is just a mishmash, and works itself out. Meanwhile there are people with absolutely decisive aggressive agendas, working intensely - hundreds of billions of dollars and even trillion dollar industries are mobilised against you. The reason you have the luxury of that position is because good men and women before you did take a stand, did logically reason out the actual fact of the issues of their time and set something down in stone with their best intention for the future generations. You have benefitted from that. At least take a stand man, are you for or against these things - are you for the global corporate takeover or against it. Hey, you can take whatever position you want, and if it's "somewhere in the middle" good luck with that I'm sure you'll have many supporters when the food supply doubles in price in the next two years. Explain to them how resource scarcity is engineered then, they won't listen.

"A hungry mob is an angry mob" - Bob Marley.

We shall all fall somewhere in the middle right into governments loving arms... how independent are you - can you grow your own food, what if your food becomes contaminated with GMO's what will you do then? When you have cancer? When you can't have kids? When your kids can't have kids? Did you hear the Mike Adams report about how the infertility problem has not even fully shown itself becuase it will only properly show up in the next generation?

I suppose this is an in between position for you as well.

I mean do you think your forbears had an in between position when Hitler was marching over Europe? They took a stand for what was right. I'm sure it is more an intellectual challenge for us today, but bravery is required nonetheless - bravery to see past a global propaganda system, and a psychopathic leadership of mafia criminals that has taken over control of governments around the world - funded and fuelled by a fraudulent paper money system.

If I had a money printing machine, I'd be able to buy up everything wouldn't I. Farms, real estate, corporations.... and governments.

So the way I see it, your position is merely a way to wet blanket this debate. I get that you don't want to talk about these things, that you may feel the need to do that in order to feel that the issues are at rest, but it's precisely that mentality and position on these things that has let it get so out of hand that we are where we are today: practically politically neutralised, practically physically infertile as a species and getting worse fast, and waiting for the idiot box to tell us what to do next.

[rama0929]

I get that you don't want to talk about these things.

Neither do you.
By the way
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

You lose the argument

[asgoodasitgets]

I get that you don't want to talk about these things.

Neither do you.
By the way
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

You lose the argument

I guess that makes you the decider...? from where I'm standing, not quite. but seriously, do you think that the reason the probability of a conversation turning to such labels is not perhaps because those ideologies exist politically in our world today, and ultimately all political thoughts come from either two schools: a principled approach to logic, which I would put into that category Austrian economics and school of liberty, and collectivism, which is ultimately Nazism in some flavour. Unprincipled science, unprincipled economics, flawed logic in socialism, and ultimately collectivism supporting an ultra elite benefitting off an ultra poor. Corporatism is corporatism. If the government operates through corporations to dominate, it's fascism, if the corporations operate through the government to dominate, it's fascism. Bread and water and water and bread are the same thing.

As I said in another thread just now, the devolution into the use of the term Nazi has a basis here. Sure there are people who will throw that term around. In my case, I've studied history and I know for a fact that the term is applicable - to Monsanto, to the Federal Reserve, the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds - they funded Nazi science, and Nazi war machine, and eugenics. So they are ARE Nazi's in principle, whether or not they were members of the Germany national socialist party, if we look at the internals of Hitlers philosophy - his association with the order of thule, the nazi science, new world order, all that, then yes, they are Nazis, and I'm only calling a spade a spade.

[renodante]

I have seen homeopathics work where multiple antibiotic doses did not, on serious infections

homeopathic remedies are nothing but water. as someone who is against fraud, you should be against the sale of such snake oil. placebos work sometimes, in certain cases. homeopathics have never been shown to be effective in tests. if you now tell me that's because the scientists are part of a vast conspiracy and they're all beholden to Big Pharma, i shall vomit all over my keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqrEMJ29qVg

[asgoodasitgets]

I have seen homeopathics work where multiple antibiotic doses did not, on serious infections

homeopathic remedies are nothing but water. as someone who is against fraud, you should be against the sale of such snake oil. placebos work sometimes, in certain cases. homeopathics have never been shown to be effective in tests. if you now tell me that's because the scientists are part of a vast conspiracy and they're all beholden to Big Pharma, i shall vomit all over my keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqrEMJ29qVg

Placebos work more than in just some cases. The entire system of medical testing has to be structured against hopefully ruling them out, so I think they're a bit more significant than just a sometimes phenomenon.

http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/resea ... pathy.html

It's not just water. Expand your view of the universe beyond the blinkers. I've seen it work where antibiotics failed.

[renodante]

It's not just water. Expand your view of the universe beyond the blinkers.

it's water, unless you believe in magic. we can know this because all studies done in this plane of reality, in the physical world, show that it's just water, AND that it doesn't actually work beyond as a placebo. the only thing contradicting this are some anecdotal stories and the statements of those trying to sell you the expensive bottles of water or water based pellets.

I've seen it work where antibiotics failed.

i can find you thousands of people who have "seen" faith healing, reiki, a statue of the virgin mary, etc heal people too. anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all.

you think Big Pharma is evil? selling a sick person a bottle of water makes Big Pharma look like Ghandi.