Peru vs. Chile

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chi chi
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Peru vs. Chile

Postby chi chi » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:42 pm

I was in Santiago De Chile last week. Woww, what a difference.
Santiago was clean and very safe. European style public transport.
But expensive.
Converted in Peruvian soles; 10 soles a beer, cheap 'menu' 40 soles, busticket 4 soles, cheap hostel 80 soles.

And those countries are neighboors...???

But I noticed a lot of Peruvians. Most are there to work or study.

I talked to a Peruvian waitress at a restaurant and she told me that she made 450 soles a month in Peru and now 2500 soles a month in Chile.


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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby stuart » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:15 pm

chi chi wrote:I was in Santiago De Chile last week. Woww, what a difference.
Santiago was clean and very safe. European style public transport.
But expensive.
Converted in Peruvian soles; 10 soles a beer, cheap 'menu' 40 soles, busticket 4 soles, cheap hostel 80 soles.

And those countries are neighboors...???

But I noticed a lot of Peruvians. Most are there to work or study.

I talked to a Peruvian waitress at a restaurant and she told me that she made 450 soles a month in Peru and now 2500 soles a month in Chile.


So you earn about four times more but things cost about four times more? Same old story.

The main problem with Santiago, and Chile generally, is the only interesting day you are going to have is the day you cut open your wrists and end it all. It has to be one of the dullest places on earth and one where you'll starve to death if you don't decide to take your own life. I could just about survive Chiloé for a couple of months in the summer - the only place with any culture - or perhaps Iquique because it feels like home, but the rest... just not a place to live.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby renodante » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:54 am

stuart wrote:
chi chi wrote:I was in Santiago De Chile last week. Woww, what a difference.
Santiago was clean and very safe. European style public transport.
But expensive.
Converted in Peruvian soles; 10 soles a beer, cheap 'menu' 40 soles, busticket 4 soles, cheap hostel 80 soles.

And those countries are neighboors...???

But I noticed a lot of Peruvians. Most are there to work or study.

I talked to a Peruvian waitress at a restaurant and she told me that she made 450 soles a month in Peru and now 2500 soles a month in Chile.


So you earn about four times more but things cost about four times more? Same old story.

The main problem with Santiago, and Chile generally, is the only interesting day you are going to have is the day you cut open your wrists and end it all. It has to be one of the dullest places on earth and one where you'll starve to death if you don't decide to take your own life. I could just about survive Chiloé for a couple of months in the summer - the only place with any culture - or perhaps Iquique because it feels like home, but the rest... just not a place to live.


it's funny you say that because i just have this intuitive sense that Chile is completely boring.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby americorps » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:22 am

When I lived in Chile, I called it Disney does South America.

There are some flavors there of Latin America, but watered down. No the excitement you would find in Argentina with the arts and tango, not the passion for life you find in Peru, nor the diversity in faces. Unless you love love love hotdogs, the food is just not much to write home about.

One quirk I found in Chile that I still am not sure how to take, but I met more than half a dozen friends, most of whom had 3 photos albums. 1 was of their family and childhood. 1 was of their friends and 1 was tucked back in the corner and was of their ex-friends. There seemed to be great pride in pulling out the third album and discussing who the former friend was and why they were no longer friends.

If just 1 person had done that, I would have just presumed they were nuts, but when several did it, I did not know what to think of it.

On the flip side, it is very clean, when you walk in a store they look up and say may I help you. you can cross the streets safely and if you have a contract, you can expect it to be honored.

Overall, I can see an appeal to Chile and the south is beyond beautiful and it does host Rapa Nui (Easter Island) and Robinson Caruso Island and it borders Antartica, all worthy of a visit, but I prefer Peru.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby captsirl » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:06 am

Oh please.
Stick to talking about food.
What was it like to eat meat for its flavor and not cooked to death to hide it.
Tell us more about the food.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby trevor33 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:17 am

captsirl wrote:Oh please.
Stick to talking about food.
What was it like to eat meat for its flavor and not cooked to death to hide it.
Tell us more about the food.


I think you need a trip to Argentina.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby TonyLeslie » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:20 am

I must be missing something here. I have spent a lot of time in Chile and agree it is a safe, clean environment, has a modern fleet of public transport buses and a great Metro train system that together, puts anything here in Peru to shame albeit it is still overcrowded in peak hours. But I have found it anything but boring.

Heaps of good restaurants and nightclubs and no problem finding a good steak, cold beer and terrific wine. Travelled to some of the best presented wineries I have ever been to, and I have been to a few over the years and for the walkers, the Saturday walk with 100´s of other people up to the top of Cerro San Cristobal. Mingling with the people in Barrio Bella Vista with all its restaurants and bars. The parks and museums at Quinta Normal and the typical markets that abound in all South American Cities. You would never be short of amazing shopping centres, many of which are companies that have expanded to Peru. Then there is the 70 minute drive from Santiago to the snow fields during the cooler months or settle in to one of the mountain resorts for log fires, warm wine toddies and delicious food.

Then onto to Ruta 5 sur, a great road to drive on even if you do have to pay the tolls, south to Pucon and Lago Villarica where the place is alive with young tourists from all around the world and is never boring. This area has some of the most beautiful surroundings you could ever hope to visit and for the brave, the trip up to Volcán Villarrica. Even further south into the lake districts to Puerto Varras and Lago Llanquihue where the influence of German and I think Swiss immigration in the 1800´s have left a legacy of fantastic food, restaurants and is a great place to sit back and relax. Chilóe is good for it´s culture, fantastic seafood and green pastures but you do have to take a boat ride to get there if you have a car. Unfortunately is also noted for it's constant rainfall and coastal mist.

I agree Iquique is probably the pick of the North and has a fantastic beach, where the very long beachfront is lined by a park with plenty of green grass, a boardwalk, paths, seats and the cleanliness of the Llama display pen and the aquarium which have been incorporated into the area are a credit to the local council. I admit to never getting to La Serena which is a popular tourist spot or the Patagonia region.

Everyone to there own, but I think I find Peru, which is more reliant on it's historic past for tourism is more boring than Chile and Peru is nowhere close to Chile in travelling safely around the countryside.
I am sure this will get a reaction or two. :D
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby chezterfield » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:03 am

The main problem with Santiago, and Chile generally, is the only interesting day you are going to have is the day you cut open your wrists and end it all. It has to be one of the dullest places on earth and one where you'll starve to death if you don't decide to take your own life.


Lol, pretty brutal, but from my experience mostly true. I feel a lot of backpackers go away saying the same thing about Lima because they haven't left Parque Kennedy.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:23 am

Cleaner and safer streets can be accomplished in a couple of decades (or even less), but the differences in other aspects of the countries as gastronomy, archeological spots, traditions, dancing, history, natural beauties,... the list is long... can't be achieved even in one thousand years..

Chile is boring because when the had the opportunity to be a more diverse country, they didn't, now I think it is too late. Racism and xenofobic is one of the reason why you can't see asiatics and black people in Chile. And this finally played as an important factor of being more boring than their neighbourhoods. Less diversification means less culture

While Peru is proud of their rich culture, Chile is proud of the "Guerra del Pacifico", that is why they keep war trophy as Huascar. As they don't have anything else to be proud, "war" is a good reason to be proud of. Chile is a well-known conflictive country in the region. While Peru and Ecuador and Bolivia are friends, chileans are still seen with distrust..

Comparing Peru and Chile is like comparing the Inca Culture with the tribe mapuche..
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:11 am

TonyLeslie wrote:.... Even further south into the lake districts to Puerto Varras and Lago Llanquihue where the influence of German and I


Tony, this is what a sad and frustrated german guy have to say about trying to find work in Chile - Valdivia, Puerto Montt, Patagonia, etc. He is german and because is not chilean, can't get a work. Married to a chilean woman.

Imagine how depressed the guy felt about it, that had to complain about and left a video on youtube. This guy in an engineer in transport and logistic..

He always got the same answer when trying to get a jog "no contratamos extranjeros por politica de la empresa" -> ""it is politics of the company not hiring foreigners"". He is a legal resident, he has permanent visa in Chile..

He also complaint about the bad medical public services.. waiting 6 months for a dentist and 2.5 months for a oculist (glasses)

He also complaint about the discrimination for his 7 years old son at a public school en Valdivia. The child was punished by the teacher, staying at the gyms of the school during cold climate and for that reason was sicked during 14 days.. The punishment was because at class the professor said everyone has to draw a flag. Everyone draw a chilean flag, but the child draw a german flag..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnHCPi1BVfc
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby TonyLeslie » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:05 pm

Don´t know what ¨windsportinPeru´s¨comments have to do with the German immigration into Chile in the 1800´s nor what it has to do with the very fine cuisine, home made produce from local fruits and vegetables in Puerta Varras or even Frutilla with it´s beautiful swiss styles buildings. Nor relaxing on a cruise around Lago Lanquihue or enjoying the scenery as you drive around the several lakes in the area, which was the basis of my first posting on this subject when I mentioned german immigration. This immigration was 150 years or so ago, much less of course in these later years.

No doubt there are hundreds of similar stories about people having the same work problems in Chile, Peru and other countries. In the meantime, I have read recently that over 40,000 Spaniards have either gone or are heading to Chile because of the work situation in Spain and job opportunities in Chile. No doubt there will be doubters to this statement (isn´t there always doubters) but I will try and research whereabouts I read it. Probably the Santiago Times or I Love Chile websites. For those who want to find out more, including who has immigrated and who hasn´t, I suggest they try, "This Is Chile" website and hit the english icon or read in spanish.

I have stated why I do not find Chile boring and I write about my personnal experiences from visiting Chile every year for five years with stopovers as long as 3 months on some occasions. I now live in Peru, but I miss the fresh air of just about everywhere in Chile except Santiago, the beautiful scenery, the good wines, beers and the ease of finding a good steak at restaurants. The night clubs where us older people can go wining, dining and dancing as well as enjoying a good cabaret. I do not dispute you can find the same here in Peru, but I still sit by my words, there are plenty of things to do in Chile and it is anything but boring for those who stay, look and converse with a variety of locals.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:28 pm

Tony, Tony, Tony.. 3 times your name to call your attention..

I have no doubt that you have had a good experience while being in Chile as a tourist, but let me tell you that probably you are one of the very few rare cases that describe Chile as you did. Your elocuence is very brilliant. Your effort is very loable. Up to this point, I don't want to think that part of your words are biased and you have some sort of preferences for Chile in detriment of Peru.

I think that you are honest when describing all those good things you had experienced there, but at some point of your reading I thought you had a paid employment in "this is chile" :) When you mentioned very fine (chilean) cuisine, I think you were so far away...

It is obvious that the comments of the german guy complaining about Chile has nothing to do with the german from 1800. What he described is his very unique bad experience while trying to find a job in a southern area of chile where is supposed to find easy help from his chilean-german descendant.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby TonyLeslie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:07 pm

What the hell are you on about windsportin Peru. where I come from that patronising first line comment would get you classified in one word, starts with W finishes with R and probably not allowed to be written here. I know there is a lot of bad feelings between Chileans and Peruvians when it comes to national pride, so I will just presume you are a Peruvian and that will explain most of your comments. I write as I see it and if you don't like it, thats not my problem.

You say "I don't want to think that part of my words are being biased and I have some sort of preference over Chile to the detriment of Peru. I think I might have answered that in the first paragraph, but your welcome to think exactly that, water off a ducks back to me. In any case, during Copa America, I think the population of just about every other country in South America would have had detrimental comments about Peru at one time or other, so if I am biased, probably have millions of friends.

May I also suggest fine cuisine is available in Chile. For goodness sake, cuisine doesn't have to be some traditional background specific to the country where you are dining. My comment at that time was about restaurants specific to a particular area in Chile of European ethnic descendancy. Does that mean you are suggesting to all the Europeans here in Peru that the fine cuisine from their home countries can be described in one word, begins with S finshes with T? But if we are trying to push the world renowned Peruvian food as fine cuisine, yes I agree and have enjoyed some very fine cuisine here in Lima as well. However not all Peruvians would think the same. Reference the Chef in hot water over his comments, written in PERU THIS WEEK, some days ago.

In Southern Chile, try some of the thick fleshed deep sea fish (Trevalla in english being one) from the southern ocean. Pan fried as a steak, in some cases over 3 centermetres thick. Add some locally produced vegetables because they retain more flavor than massed produced vegetables, steamed till they are still slightly resistent to the fork, add a variation of a white or cheese sauce, not over done so the whole plate is awash with it and served with a Chilean Sauvigon Blanc chilled to the correct temperature. Nothing wrong with that as fine cuisine.

Here in Peru I regularly go to two very fine seafood restaurants locally and certainly enjoy their cuisine. Lamentable, like 100´s of restaurantes in Peru the options to drink are coca cola, inka cola, chicho and beer. I repeat to my wife constantly, what a waste of fine dining. My saving grace is the cost of the cerveza grande in Breña is cheaper than the cost of cerveza chica in Miraflores. Yes, I can find a few other options, but we visit these places because we enjoy the food.

So, if I suggest that in the context of Chile vs Peru, the Peruvian wines and the Peruvian wine culture is is so far behind Chile they can´t be compared, you will probably want to argue that as well. You are certainly welcome to call me biased on the subject. At this point, I won´t bring the coffee culture into the debate. If I may digress slightly and wander a little off topic, I also believe Colombia is far more vibrant than either Chile or Peru and that is without the need to dodge bullets and kidnappers.

Living in Breña and constantly moving about the streets here and through Pueblo Libre, Jesus Maria, Centro Lima, Lince etc I don´t think discussing sad and frustrated people is something worth bothering to talk about. Especially as most people here from USA (I am not one of them) will have plenty of sad tales about folks they know in similar situations and losing their homes as well.

As it is Valelentines day and the wife does not have to work, I now have better things to do, as we are heading for lunch at a fine restaurant with a good wine selection, not much of it being Peruvian admittedly, but live in hope, I might even select an Argentinian wine.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:22 pm

Tony, it seem to be that in some way you are loosing control. I don't want to follow that way of communication, because denote lack of arguments. I have arguments. It is a way I use to use in any kind of conversation. So I suggest you, if you want to talk with me, adapt to this kind of interaction of ideas. It is really lack or arguments trying to mention words that begins with "s" and end with "t", on the other side, arguments are solid as rocks..

I would like to answer you that I have never stated that Peru has good wines, I wouldn't say it even in a thousand of years. In the area of wines Chile wins... This last comments are showing clearly that I am not biased, even though I am peruvian..

It doesn't change the fact that trying to argue that Chile has a "fine cuisine" is more than an exaggeration. The dish you mentioned before is just a non-representative example of a "far away" region of Chile. What represent the chilean cuisine are "mote con huesillo", "porotos con rienda", "empanada chilena", and "completos" + some dishes prepared mostly with seafood. I really hope you are not going to say that those dishes are fine cuisine, because I will really begin to think that you are totally biased.

A couple of question. What do you think about the copy of the peruvian pisco in Chile ?? and.. if you have any kind of stronger relationship with Chile ?? (do you have relatives in chile? ). Please try to be honest, as I have already been with you..

Waiting for your kind response..
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby VicManu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:21 pm

TonyLeslie wrote:It doesn't change the fact that trying to argue that Chile has a "fine cuisine" is more than an exaggeration. The dish you mentioned before is just a non-representative example of a "far away" region of Chile. What represent the chilean cuisine are "mote con huesillo", "porotos con rienda", "empanada chilena", and "completos" + some dishes prepared mostly with seafood. I really hope you are not going to say that those dishes are fine cuisine, because I will really begin to think that you are totally biased.

A couple of question. What do you think about the copy of the peruvian pisco in Chile ?? and.. if you have any kind of stronger relationship with Chile ?? (do you have relatives in chile? ). Please try to be honest, as I have already been with you..

Waiting for your kind response..


WindsportinPeru I don´t Know why you have to force someone to think different that He does. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and choices. This is a free world check the constitution of Peru, it says nothing like to live in Peru is mandatory to Like everything of this country.

If someone has different taste that you have it doesn´t mean he´s wrong. If you want to criticize something about other country it´s your choice nobody has to follow You. I wouldn´t care less about this thread. Why someone has to compare X country to Y country. Hey man forget the marca Peru. You aren´t obliged to be ambassador of the marca Peru, Peru is a country with its Pros and its cons.

We are obliged to have our own criteria and try to do ggod stuff for our people and our country if we want. We have to cooperate to improve what we need to improve in this country. If I say I hate mondongo, patita con mani, cuy chactado, olluquito con charqui, patasca, thimpo etc. I´m not saying I hate Peru I just hate those dishes , I love other dishes but we are exagerating trying to raise patriotic feelings because we have a enjoyable cuisine. Hey man I´m nobody to tell what you have to do. My opinion is only my opinion.
I don´t like most of the chileans who I met but that one is only my experience, I don´t care if poroto con riendas o locos con mayo is horrible food or not . It isn´t part of the food I use to eat.
Why Yoy have to care about the opinion of someone else. Just try to be happy and let it be.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:07 pm

Victor

Ambassador of Peru ? The marca Peru ? it has nothing to do with this conversation..

Thanks for trying to participate into the conversation.. We are talking about cuisine.. as far as I can remember :)

P.S.

Victor I read your "message" again, thanks for it.. It took me 2 times to get it well :) Anyway, it was nothing to do with the Constitution of Peru ..
Last edited by windsportinperu on Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby renodante » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:10 pm

Racism and xenofobic is one of the reason why you can't see asiatics and black people in Chile.


As opposed to Peru where some discotecas don't allow blacks or "cholos" and where almost every big casino has a black guy dressed up in a ridiculous costume with a top-hat on as the door man? Sorry, but Peru is EXTREMELY racist.

I'm not saying you're wrong about Chile being worse, but Peru has a very very long time to go before it can boast of being an open, multicultural society. For one of many anecdotal examples I see way too many "chola" nannies walking little Spanish-descended blonde kids around to think that's the case.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:18 pm

An area of the Central Jungle of Peru were colonized by european immigrants coming from German-Austria. It happens in the eighteen century. The names are Oxapampa and Pozuzo. Actually these settlers have a rich local selection of dishes, mostly a creole mixture between the european recipes and local ingredients. They are great people that have followed their ancestral traditions and preserved their lifestyle, you can see it through the buildings in the town and dishes.. I have several friends over there. Are their culinary dishes recognized as representative of the peruvian gastronomy ?

The anticuchos exist in Peru because of the black people. They use to use the non-edible parts of the cow. Something that in the past was considered "food for the poors" now prepared on exquisite restaurants...

History, traditions and taste for food create a culinary gastronomy in a country..
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby falconagain » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:29 pm

While Chile is trying to profit from Peruvian foods, I have always wondered
how Peru can claim to be exclusive owner of certain dishes. Ceviche is one
of them. There is also Ceviche in Ecuador and Colombia (the one in Ecuador
is similar to the Peruvian one and the one of Colombia is actually quite different).
Then thanks to travel channel I found out that there is also ceviche in some
countries within central america. There is also the case that in colombia
they have a dish almost identical to the Sudado (difference they use chicken
instead of fish), the colombians have also a dish identical to the aguadito
except that theirs does not have any rice. Now this makes wonder and how
people in those countries feel upon watching Peruvian advertising saying that
those foods are exclusive from Peru.

Then there is also the affirmation that many Peruvians make that the Chilean
Pisco is malo without drinking it.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:35 pm

renodante wrote:
Racism and xenofobic is one of the reason why you can't see asiatics and black people in Chile.


As opposed to Peru where some discotecas don't allow blacks or "cholos" and where almost every big casino has a black guy dressed up in a ridiculous costume with a top-hat on as the door man? Sorry, but Peru is EXTREMELY racist.

I'm not saying you're wrong about Chile being worse, but Peru has a very very long time to go before it can boast of being an open, multicultural society. For one of many anecdotal examples I see way too many "chola" nannies walking little Spanish-descended blonde kids around to think that's the case.


This discotheques received a penalty for having racism methods for selecting who and who is not going to enter into their place, but it is good to clarify that it only happens in some self-named "exclusive" places in Miraflores, not all over the country. We agree that Peru needs more to do about racism..
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:52 pm

falconagain wrote: There is also Ceviche in Ecuador and Colombia (the one in Ecuador
is similar to the Peruvian....


The ceviche in Ecuador is a soup, it is not even remotely similar to the peruvian recipe.. They uses tomato in the recipe..
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby chi chi » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:12 pm

[quote="windsportinperu]He always got the same answer when trying to get a jog "no contratamos extranjeros por politica de la empresa" -> ""it is politics of the company not hiring foreigners"". He is a legal resident, he has permanent visa in Chile..
[/quote]


There are many Peruvians working in Peru. Both legal and illegal.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby falconagain » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:28 pm

windsportinperu wrote:
falconagain wrote: There is also Ceviche in Ecuador and Colombia (the one in Ecuador
is similar to the Peruvian....


The ceviche in Ecuador is a soup, it is not even remotely similar to the peruvian recipe.. They uses tomato in the recipe..


Yes you are right. But my point is that we cannot claim total exclusivity over a meal if the
same name or similar recipes are present in other countries close to us.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby chi chi » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:32 pm

falconagain wrote:
windsportinperu wrote:
falconagain wrote: There is also Ceviche in Ecuador and Colombia (the one in Ecuador
is similar to the Peruvian....


The ceviche in Ecuador is a soup, it is not even remotely similar to the peruvian recipe.. They uses tomato in the recipe..


Yes you are right. But my point is that we cannot claim total exclusivity over a meal if the
same name or similar recipes are present in other countries close to us.


I neither understand why some people call a Polleria something typical Peruvian. There all around the world restaurants that specialise in Chicken, fries and salad.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:37 pm

falconagain wrote:
windsportinperu wrote:
falconagain wrote: There is also Ceviche in Ecuador and Colombia (the one in Ecuador
is similar to the Peruvian....


The ceviche in Ecuador is a soup, it is not even remotely similar to the peruvian recipe.. They uses tomato in the recipe..


Yes you are right. But my point is that we cannot claim total exclusivity over a meal if the
same name or similar recipes are present in other countries close to us.


Do you have any official document that back it up. I mean if officially Peru is claiming the exclusivity of the name "ceviche" ?
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:42 pm

chi chi wrote:
falconagain wrote:
windsportinperu wrote:
falconagain wrote: There is also Ceviche in Ecuador and Colombia (the one in Ecuador
is similar to the Peruvian....


The ceviche in Ecuador is a soup, it is not even remotely similar to the peruvian recipe.. They uses tomato in the recipe..


Yes you are right. But my point is that we cannot claim total exclusivity over a meal if the
same name or similar recipes are present in other countries close to us.


I neither understand why some people call a Polleria something typical Peruvian. There all around the world restaurants that specialise in Chicken, fries and salad.


Do you know of any country of the world that uses the word "polleria" ?
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby americorps » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:56 pm

renodante wrote:
Racism and xenofobic is one of the reason why you can't see asiatics and black people in Chile.


As opposed to Peru where some discotecas don't allow blacks or "cholos" and where almost every big casino has a black guy dressed up in a ridiculous costume with a top-hat on as the door man? Sorry, but Peru is EXTREMELY racist.

I'm not saying you're wrong about Chile being worse, but Peru has a very very long time to go before it can boast of being an open, multicultural society. For one of many anecdotal examples I see way too many "chola" nannies walking little Spanish-descended blonde kids around to think that's the case.



No one ever suggested one country was racist and one was not, however, it would be a total fabrication to say that Peru is more racist or even equally racist as Chile.

Chile is well known for having many active neo-nazi groups, including a national organized (but not recognized) political party who´s main goal is to eliminate the ethnically impure including Jewish people, blacks, Asians, and homosexuals. Such formalized racism does not exist here anywhere near that level, however institutional racism is heavily prevalent in both countries.

Another difference in Chile from Peru is that Chile has historically eliminated much more of their indigenous population through genocide than Peru has.

Hardly comparable if you ask me.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby falconagain » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:45 pm

Cholos, most of the population is mixed, there is no pure white or black in Peru
unless it is a person that comes from abroad.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby renodante » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:16 pm

No one ever suggested one country was racist and one was not, however, it would be a total fabrication to say that Peru is more racist or even equally racist as Chile.


actually the person i was responding to indeed said Peru was less racist than Chile.

Chile is boring because when the had the opportunity to be a more diverse country, they didn't, now I think it is too late. Racism and xenofobic is one of the reason why you can't see asiatics and black people in Chile. And this finally played as an important factor of being more boring than their neighbourhoods. Less diversification means less culture


it would be a total fabrication to say that Peru is more racist or even equally racist as Chile.


which is why i made sure to clarify that i wasn't saying the poster was wrong per se.
Last edited by renodante on Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby renodante » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:19 pm

there is no pure white or black in Peru


While there's no such thing as "pure white or black" in reality anyway, you do in fact have an upper class in Peru many of whom have 100% spanish ancestry and who have been careful not to intermarry with "cholos."
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:21 pm

A little back in history explain more about the word cholo, criollo and "whites" :

During several decades Peru was split by 2 main social classes: the "criollos" and the "indians". Also existed some others groups, but these two were the majority.

Criollos were the spaniard descendants with some others europeans races mixed up with some not very noticeable traces of native and black people .. They erroneously named themself "whites". The money and power was in their hands for several decades (and centuries). Unfortunately the word criollo, is not being used anymore, but was very common 40 or 50 years ago.

What happens the last 2 or more decades in Peru, was that suddenly a new hard worker society appears on the stage. It is the people coming from provinces and making enough money to compete with the "criollos". They use to be contemptuously named as the "cholos" by the criollos

So there was no an apparteid or something like this, just 2 different worlds that suddenly find each other.

Actually the mixture of races is at higher rates than before.

The main reason why actually you can see "empleada domestica" chola giving services to "criollos" is just money - not racism. In some more decades you will see a different world in Lima as it is now.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby TonyLeslie » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:31 am

Now, getting back to you windsportinperu. You have to allow for my uncouth, colonialism and convict inspired ancestery when I write. But I can't live 200 years in the past so I also blame the kids I grew up with and the people I used to work with, they are all to blame. Read again what I said. I mentioned fine cuisine in a particular area of Chile. You seem to have a major distraction between the words fine cuisine and the culinary gastronomy differences between Chile and Peru. Ok, the difference between the two countries culinary wise, is similar to the difference in the wine culture in the reverse argument.

But what is fine cuisine. To me, fine cuisine starts and ends with the chef/restauranter having the experience to purchase a quality product, present it in a variety of forms and to a required standard or to the customers demands. Then match it with a variety of options which he/she believes will compliment the meal. Gravy/sauces are made with a touch of the chefs own recipe where he/she may add a touch of something different to enhance the flavours. Then presented in an appropriate manner. You made a statement that what I had previously described was a "non representative example of a far away region of Chile", Quite correct, but it is also an example of fine cuisine the world over. The top 5 y 6 Star hotels being prime examples. One top hotel here in Peru, has a Malaysian Chef, (Can't remember his exact title, sorry Matahari, but his wife is active on Expatperu site and the coffee group in particular) who presents, only on various occasions I believe but will stand corrected, examples of fine cuisine based on Malaysion gastronomy into the menu. I think or hope I am allowed to repeat that, but it's too late now. No doubt many of the culinary gastonomy dishes of Peru would classify under the banner of fine cuisine as well, but I reiterate, what I wrote is not a competition of national dishes between Chile and Peru, but what I experienced while I was in the region and I call it, fine cuisine.

I will throw in another example here. I met a French couple, ( married) in Chile and was fortunate enough to be invited to their house at a district called Pique, about 40 minutes drive from Santiago. (Concho y Torres also have a vineyard and cellar door in that area, for those who know the brand) He is a wine expert and travels South America (including Peru) and USA when companies hire him to assist in the development of their wine makers. He also has his own small vineyard on the property. She is a qualified Chef. A friend of theirs, also French and living in Chile, has been developing french inspired cheeses as one of his interests. The meal I and several other people who were invited this particular day experienced, was what I would call, French inspired fine cuisine. Started with a combination of specially prepared oysters and mussels, followed by quail with stir fried local vegetables inspired by her own aromatic sauces. Cheese and fruit platters completed the meal and all dishes were well matched (through their own experiences) to very good wines from his small cellar. I would call it, fine cuisine and a great dining experience. Other than local produce, nothing to do with anything Chilean within the menu.

As I also said before, I did not find Chile boring, because I talked and intergrated with the local population, but that also applies here in Peru. Just haven't found anyone like those described above here in Lima yet.

On what I think about the pisco question, I suppose the answer is I dont think about it, I don't know the history of it and I am not much of a pisco drinker anyway, wine is more my poison. The alternate answer appears to be, to find someone to agree with you, talk to a Peruavian, for an opposing view, talk to a Chilean. I think I read that pisco is a fruit from a vine, in which my question would be, did the vine, like most vines used the develpment of wines , have it's origins in Europe and if so, what was the drink that created from it. Maybe it is something developed from the Inca or pre Inca times, I have no idea.

My possible connections in Chile, if you read your own posts, you have written the answer to that already.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:05 pm

Tony, first of all I have to tell you thanks for getting back to this conversation in this terms. After all I think we misunderstood each other, when trying to explain our points of view.

I never tried to patronize you, in any way, just tried to call your attention, because before that sad unpredictable message I did, you were talking to me in 3º person singular, while I was talking to you in 2º person singular

Now that you has presented your concept of fine cuisine, it is clear that we were talking about the same word, but with opposite conceptual meaning behind it. I appreciate a lot, the effort you have made to make it clearer.

This new concept about fine cuisine explains everything. But I would like to make one thing clear, so please let me explain my point of view. From this perspective any country of the world could be titled to say they have fine cuisine, they just need at least one or two great regional restaurant that could back it up.

My point of view is that a country could we entitled as the owner of a fine cuisine as the result of a tradition from generation to generation plus a refinement in its presentation.

In my opinion, Peru is not the holder of a fine cuisine, but has a multicultural, traditional and made with love cuisine that could put the country in a privilege position all over the world. This is supported by abundance of native vegetables, tropical fruits, legumes and tubers. Maybe some day we will have the honor to say Peru has a fine cuisine, but needs more refinements

I also appreciate a lot the answer you did about pisco and your chilean relatives. I think you are a trustworthy person and a complete gentleman. If I could talk in the name of Peru, I could say that we have the pleasure to count with you in our country.

Finally, I have to say cheers with a great chilean wine (maybe a cabernet sauvignon) and as a accompaniment a great peruvian pisco sour. I really hope this in not going to end up as a drunkenness :)
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby TonyLeslie » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:07 pm

What relatives? I´m not Chilean.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:47 pm

TonyLeslie wrote:What relatives? I´m not Chilean.


Tony, it doesn't really matter where your relatives are from, I know you are australian ..
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby renodante » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:06 pm

The main reason why actually you can see "empleada domestica" chola giving services to "criollos" is just money - not racism. In some more decades you will see a different world in Lima as it is now.


I understand. My point is, in almost all cases, if you can trace your ancestry to the Spanish almost exclusively, then it's almost certain you come from money. Old Money in Peru=Spanish family line.

It's not racism? Well, sure it is. There's a reason why most blonde/blue eyed or light skinned peruvians happen to have money. I understand things have changed and are changing, but the fact remains. There's a reason why "cholo" is a bad word when it's said by a Peruvian of Spanish descent.

Then you have your brands like "negrita" etc with Aunt Jemima looking logos of sterotypical "black" features and dressed like slaves.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:52 pm

renodante wrote: Old Money in Peru=Spanish family line


I got your point, and agree that there was an established form of racism in Peru that only let the "whites" to make money and study at universities. But as you said it is "old money", it is part of the past, not the present times. If I would like to be more precise I would say that "white woman with empleada domestica chola" is the consequence of a past-in-time form of discrimination

Actually, in Peru anyone from any race can make money and be wealthy enough to send their children at the best universities in Lima, buy excluvive houses at high class beaches, condominiums, etc.

To be honest, I understand that in US and some countries in Europe, the brand "la negrita" could be taken as racism, but not in Peru. It is because it wasn't intend to be offensive, it is just part of a brand. I think that this could offensive in US, but not in Peru.

Peru has a more practical way to detect what is really racism or not. We evaluate racism for its consequences and the main is discrimination. If someone is discriminated by his/her race, it is racism.

I need to remark that I am not saying that racism doesn't exist in Peru.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby renodante » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

To be honest, I understand that in US and some countries in Europe, the brand "la negrita" could be taken as racism, but not in Peru. It is because it wasn't intend to be offensive, it is just part of a brand. I think that this could offensive in US, but not in Peru.


I don't mean this to be offensive, but most likely it will come across as such:

this is because racism is so ingrained that you can't even see it. it's acceptable, it's ok. it wasn't intended to be offensive in the U.S either (imagery in advertising of stereotypical blacks/chinese, hispanics, etc), it's just the way blacks were seen. The fact you think it's no big deal is why racism is strong, and alive and well in Peru. It's ok to single someone out because of their skin color, to identify someone based on their "race" or skin color. "Hey chola, Hey Chinito, Hey negrito" and it's all in good fun. Problem is, it's racist. I've heard many accounts of peruvians going to the states and calling blacks "niggers" and almost getting a beating, and they don't understand why. They don't mean it in a bad way, but regardless, they don't understand that it's not ok to point out a minority's skin color out of the blue and make it the focus of the interaction. In the Old South in the U.S, people would matter of factly call a black person a "nigger" and it wasn't always intended to insult, they were black, after all, why not call them that?....

like i said earlier, most big Casinos having a tall black guy dressed up in a silly long suit with a top-hat on is exhibit A for the kind of thing i'm talking about. no one even sees anything wrong with it.

Peru has a more practical way to detect what is really racism or not. We evaluate racism for its consequences and the main is discrimination. If someone is discriminated by his/her race, it is racism.


the problem is the detector is way overdue to be re-calibrated. it's rusty and barely working.

this will be my last post on this b/c it's off topic. but windsports, keep in mind i don't disagree with you completely, you make some valid points.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:26 pm

Renodante, very interesting your point of view, in fact some of them are totally new to me..

I see it in a practical way. When someone say to someone else something as "negro", "negra", "chino", "cholo", "gringo",..yes, it is based on race, but no, it is not offensive. It is the same as saying chato, gordo, flaco, etc, in this case is based on external appearance, and again it is not offensive.

There is nothing wrong in Peru if you call someone else "chino". Remember Fujimori was called as "el chino" and no one get it as offensive. If you call someone else by his-her race it is not racism, because it is not offensive.

I think US has an extreme kind of hyper-sensibility, because adjetives for races are ingrained as racist and discriminatory. In fact, In english there is no a natural way to say to someone else "hey asian" without being at least a bit offensive. . Any form of interaction between human beings where "race" is used as an adjetive is inmediately after considered synonyn of racism..

I think US and Peru take the same adjetives in different ways. "negro" is not offensive in Peru but "nigger" is quite offensive in US, that is why is considered racism. It is a linguistic problem.

I also agree that we are going off-topic.. It was a pleasure to share my points of view with you..

P.S. some representative examples of more-or-less famous latin-american people where race and external appearance is taken as part of his public name:

Cholo Sotil, Zambo Cavero, Chato Barraza, Flaco Spinetta, La Gringa Inga, Gordo Porcel, La Chola Chabuca, El Chino Fujimori, etc , etc, etc.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby TonyLeslie » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:27 pm

And I thought this was Chile vs. Peru. Wrong Again
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby chi chi » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:40 am

renodante wrote:
To be honest, I understand that in US and some countries in Europe, the brand "la negrita" could be taken as racism, but not in Peru. It is because it wasn't intend to be offensive, it is just part of a brand. I think that this could offensive in US, but not in Peru.


Luckily, that cows don´t make a fuss about what´s racism and what´s not.

http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/wp-cont ... ng-cow.jpg
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby Icachico » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:59 am

My Peruvian wife
dislikes all things Chilean.
It's like a Hatfield vs. McCoy kinda thing & she takes it to the extreme.
I bought some sweet blueberries in the store ( here in the states) the other day
She wouldn't eat em. Why? Imported from Chile.
Same with the Kiwis I bought.
We drank some imported Chilean wine.
She got a hangover. Why? Inferior Chilean grapes.
As for the word chola(o) that's like a slang term of affection that my wife uses.
She calls her friends cholas. She even calls her mama chola.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby falconagain » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:32 am

After the purchase of several companies by Chile, Peru and its local producers hired some
marketing companies to promote the purchase of Peruvian only products by the local population,
every time that a Peruvian product is promoted, this was obviously made to get rid of the competition
of Chilean products that flood the local market.

http://www.andaperu.org/andanews/index. ... 0&Itemid=4
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby renodante » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:43 pm

She got a hangover. Why? Inferior Chilean grapes.


this one made me "lol"
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby falconagain » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:40 pm

Icachico wrote:As for the word chola(o) that's like a slang term of affection that my wife uses.
She calls her friends cholas. She even calls her mama chola.


It really depends on who says it and when, if my cousin goes and says
to a group of girls in Miraflores: Hi Cholas, they will take it as a joke.
If I go and I say Que hay de nuevo Cholas, they take it as an insulting
comment. Because we are cousins we look alike the only difference
is that I have a Spanish accent.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby VicManu » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:50 pm

falconagain wrote:
Icachico wrote:As for the word chola(o) that's like a slang term of affection that my wife uses.
She calls her friends cholas. She even calls her mama chola.


It really depends on who says it and when, if my cousin goes and says
to a group of girls in Miraflores: Hi Cholas, they will take it as a joke.
If I go and I say Que hay de nuevo Cholas, they take it as an insulting
comment. Because we are cousins we look alike the only difference
is that I have a Spanish accent.



Because you have a chilean accent and You are a hater maybe someone will beat you up if yu call somebody else cholo in Peru. But in chile it could not be punished because there a lot of haters beating and hurting peruvians because they were educated to hate peruvians.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby falconagain » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:16 pm

There is also many Peruvians that work in Chile because they are paid more
money even working without any papers. And Peru has a higher amount of
people working in slavery conditions for the clandestine mining operations.
Many Peruvians in poverty will simply move to Chile because they know that
there is more opportunities for more freedom there than in their own country.
Otherwise they would not incur in the expense of moving at all.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby chi chi » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:32 pm

falconagain wrote:There is also many Peruvians that work in Chile because they are paid more
money even working without any papers. And Peru has a higher amount of
people working in slavery conditions for the clandestine mining operations.
Many Peruvians in poverty will simply move to Chile because they know that
there is more opportunities for more freedom there than in their own country.
Otherwise they would not incur in the expense of moving at all.


We were in Santiago De Chile in January and have seen a lot of Peruvians working there in restaurants.
My gf could pick them out because of their accent and often looks.
Chileans look like Europeans. Most of them are white and often have blue eyes and blond hair.
Chileans look like Brasileans.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby falconagain » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:59 pm

I do not know any Chileans, I am aware that they are hostile to Peruvians.
But if they were as racist and violent as everybody says then no one will
visit their country. Still the Peruvians that cannot reach the United States
prefer to go to Chile first to try their luck.
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Re: Peru vs. Chile

Postby chi chi » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:32 pm

falconagain wrote:I do not know any Chileans, I am aware that they are hostile to Peruvians.
But if they were as racist and violent as everybody says then no one will
visit their country. Still the Peruvians that cannot reach the United States
prefer to go to Chile first to try their luck.



Chileans told me that they are jealous at Peruvians because Peruvians speak Spanish better than they do?
When I told Chileans that I live in Peru, they all said positive things about Peru and said that Peru is a beautifull country. My gf didn't experience anything hostile either.
But we heard them talking negative about the US. Not about the people but about the US government.

When we arrived at Santiago airport, we saw many Americans waiting in long lines to pay their reprocity fine. Although there were about 10 paying booths, there was only one open. Whilst most other passengers passed immigration in a matter of minutes.
When passing customs, the customs officer asked if I was american. When I said no, I could pass through. I looked like mainly americans were picked out for a thorough search of their baggage.

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