WARNING! Bank fraud...

Answers to your qestions about moving to, and living in, Peru,
Saramira222
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WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby Saramira222 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:59 pm

Just want to share with expats what has happened to me. I have a US bank account. When I checked my account online today, it was short nearly $500. On opening it up, I saw several transactions that took place today and yesterday. Mind you, I HAVE my debit card.

Somehow, someone got the number and used it to buy gas and withdraw cash at ATMs. How they did the latter without my pin (which no one knows) is beyond me. If anyone wants to hazard a guess, please do so. After about an hour on the phone, I convinced my local bank branch to mail a new debit card (as this one was immediately made invalid) to my son, who will FedEx it to me here. Had to write a letter and fax it to him for this. This will all take up to 3 weeks. Thank God I have someone to borrow money from to live until I get it. I do not know if I will be able to change the password from here (doubt it).

I feel furious and violated. I was told that it would take about 3 days before they credit the money back to my account, but I will be worried about the safety of my account from here on in. I even suspect the girl who works for me (probably not her, but it would have been easy for her to find my card while I was out). I withdrew money from the Citibank on Pardo. Have never used that machine before. I always use the one at Ovalo Gutierrez. Just thought people might want to know this is happening.


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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:14 pm

They insert a device in the ATM that reads the information of your card. Someone close by is looking when you enter you pinscode or a very small camera is put on the ATM. With that information, they easily make a copy of your card. ALWAYS put your hand over the keyboard when entering your pincode.

And never use the ATM'S at the airport. My gf her sister works for a bank and told me that a lot of those things happens at the airport. Many tourists arrive, are tired of a long flight, put it their pincode which you can see from a mile distance , withdraw money and are easily scammed in that way.

Also I often see people enter their pincode on those payterminals in a shop in full view of the employee. It's easy to copy a card and when you have seen the pincode then you can do anything with that.

I always pay cash. I don't want to take the risk. And when I withdraw money, I don't go to an ATM but inside the bank at the teller.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby stuart » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:35 pm

Someone cloned the card and got hold of the PIN. I broke a false card slot off an ATM not long ago, I tried to report it to the bank, but they weren't interested.

Does anyone know the procedure if this happens with a Peruvian card in Peru? From what it says on the document I signed, I am liable for every fraudulent purchase made BEFORE I report them or I notice the card is missing. I.e. the bank doesn't refund the stolen money. Is this really the policy??
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:45 pm

And it goes quick. A friend of mine, last year used an ATM at Lima airport when he arrived and the next day money got drawn from his account at an ATM in ...Bulgaria.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby caliguy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:23 pm

chi chi wrote:They insert a device in the ATM that reads the information of your card. Someone close by is looking when you enter you pinscode or a very small camera is put on the ATM. With that information, they easily make a copy of your card. ALWAYS put your hand over the keyboard when entering your pincode.

And never use the ATM'S at the airport. My gf her sister works for a bank and told me that a lot of those things happens at the airport. Many tourists arrive, are tired of a long flight, put it their pincode which you can see from a mile distance , withdraw money and are easily scammed in that way.

Also I often see people enter their pincode on those payterminals in a shop in full view of the employee. It's easy to copy a card and when you have seen the pincode then you can do anything with that.

I always pay cash. I don't want to take the risk. And when I withdraw money, I don't go to an ATM but inside the bank at the teller.

very good advise from chi chi, but a little too late for you. sorry to hear about your loss.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby FHCZ » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:45 pm

stuart wrote:Does anyone know the procedure if this happens with a Peruvian card in Peru? From what it says on the document I signed, I am liable for every fraudulent purchase made BEFORE I report them or I notice the card is missing. I.e. the bank doesn't refund the stolen money. Is this really the policy??


My BCP debit card is insured for S/.8 a month against all these scams, I get peace of mind

Fausto
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby stuart » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:26 pm

FHCZ wrote:
stuart wrote:Does anyone know the procedure if this happens with a Peruvian card in Peru? From what it says on the document I signed, I am liable for every fraudulent purchase made BEFORE I report them or I notice the card is missing. I.e. the bank doesn't refund the stolen money. Is this really the policy??


My BCP debit card is insured for S/.8 a month against all these scams, I get peace of mind

Fausto


All well and good, but in other countries the card issuer is responsible for implementing security measures, and a user only has to take reasonable precautions. No 8 soles needed.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby fanning » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:38 pm

I have that insurance with BCP, costs $30 a year, and insures against this kind of fraud. All BCP debit and credit cards, and other (Peruvian) credit cards up to $3500. It also includes a kidnapping insurance, so if I get kidnapped and with a gun to my head give up my pincodes, I am insured against that. Also cloning, scamming and phising fraud is in that insurance. Even if I get robbed of just pinned money within a couple of hundred meters from the pinmachine is included.
I suppose most banks offer that insurance, but I can recommend only the one of BCP as I use that one.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby rama0929 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:41 am

Saramira222 wrote:Just want to share with expats what has happened to me. I have a US bank account. When I checked my account online today, it was short nearly $500. On opening it up, I saw several transactions that took place today and yesterday. Mind you, I HAVE my debit card.

Somehow, someone got the number and used it to buy gas and withdraw cash at ATMs. How they did the latter without my pin (which no one knows) is beyond me. If anyone wants to hazard a guess, please do so. After about an hour on the phone, I convinced my local bank branch to mail a new debit card (as this one was immediately made invalid) to my son, who will FedEx it to me here. Had to write a letter and fax it to him for this. This will all take up to 3 weeks. Thank God I have someone to borrow money from to live until I get it. I do not know if I will be able to change the password from here (doubt it).

I feel furious and violated. I was told that it would take about 3 days before they credit the money back to my account, but I will be worried about the safety of my account from here on in. I even suspect the girl who works for me (probably not her, but it would have been easy for her to find my card while I was out). I withdrew money from the Citibank on Pardo. Have never used that machine before. I always use the one at Ovalo Gutierrez. Just thought people might want to know this is happening.


This is happening and has been happening for quite some time. It could be anything, a compromised ATM, a rogue cashier, a compromised point of sale terminal, keylogging virus on your pc... Thieves don't only need a skimmer and a camera to record your PIN, they could get it via a number generator, running attempts until they get the correct number.

Is your financial institution a bank or a credit union? Where was the fraud pattern located? Gas and ATM's are quite common, along with WalMart, Macy's & Target. Meijers, Krogers, Victoria Secrets, all over the place. It may have been part of the Global Payments compromise, heck, we're still seeing fraud related to the TJ Maxx compromise and that was years ago.

You can check the ATM at Citibank, see if they have a skimmer installed (there'd be irregularities on the machine). You may want to check the card reader on the door, sometime skimmers are installed there as well. In theory, it's harder to do at a bank, due to the security, but it happens on occasion.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby rama0929 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:44 am

stuart wrote:Someone cloned the card and got hold of the PIN. I broke a false card slot off an ATM not long ago, I tried to report it to the bank, but they weren't interested.

Does anyone know the procedure if this happens with a Peruvian card in Peru? From what it says on the document I signed, I am liable for every fraudulent purchase made BEFORE I report them or I notice the card is missing. I.e. the bank doesn't refund the stolen money. Is this really the policy??


It would not surprise me if that was the case. What's the procedure in Peru, does the financial institution contact you if they see suspicious activity?
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:35 am

rama0929 wrote:
It would not surprise me if that was the case. What's the procedure in Peru, does the financial institution contact you if they see suspicious activity?


When I lived in Tarapoto, I went to Lima and withdrew money from my account. A few minutes after the withdrawal, I got a phone call from INTERBANK asking if I am aware that money is drawn from my account in Lima?
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby stuart » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:55 am

rama0929 wrote:
stuart wrote:Someone cloned the card and got hold of the PIN. I broke a false card slot off an ATM not long ago, I tried to report it to the bank, but they weren't interested.

Does anyone know the procedure if this happens with a Peruvian card in Peru? From what it says on the document I signed, I am liable for every fraudulent purchase made BEFORE I report them or I notice the card is missing. I.e. the bank doesn't refund the stolen money. Is this really the policy??


It would not surprise me if that was the case. What's the procedure in Peru, does the financial institution contact you if they see suspicious activity?


Neither would I be if people are more than willing to shell out for basic protections that are free throughout the rest of the world. A great deal for the banks, as they get the customers to pay the costs of fraud so they don't have to bother trying to reduce it. Look how long it took for Chip & PIN to be implemented here. Won't surprise me if they eventually ask you to pay for the production of the credit/debit card itself, and to pay the graphic design a fee directly for the pretty design on it.

I've used BCP and BBVA cards throughout Peru and if I remember, in Arg, Chi, and Ecu, and didn't receive any calls. Lots of fees though :)
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby gerard » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:41 am

Look how long it took for Chip & PIN to be implemented here.


They had chip & pin for debit cards here certainly in 2000 when I first visited, which was 4 years before the UK got it.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:50 am

stuart wrote:
rama0929 wrote:Neither would I be if people are more than willing to shell out for basic protections that are free throughout the rest of the world. A great deal for the banks, as they get the customers to pay the costs of fraud so they don't have to bother trying to reduce it. Look how long it took for Chip & PIN to be implemented here. Won't surprise me if they eventually ask you to pay for the production of the credit/debit card itself, and to pay the graphic design a fee directly for the pretty design on it.

I've used BCP and BBVA cards throughout Peru and if I remember, in Arg, Chi, and Ecu, and didn't receive any calls. Lots of fees though :)


The biggest scammers are the banks themselves. They scam you all the time.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby rama0929 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:16 pm

chi chi wrote:
stuart wrote:
rama0929 wrote:Neither would I be if people are more than willing to shell out for basic protections that are free throughout the rest of the world. A great deal for the banks, as they get the customers to pay the costs of fraud so they don't have to bother trying to reduce it. Look how long it took for Chip & PIN to be implemented here. Won't surprise me if they eventually ask you to pay for the production of the credit/debit card itself, and to pay the graphic design a fee directly for the pretty design on it.

I've used BCP and BBVA cards throughout Peru and if I remember, in Arg, Chi, and Ecu, and didn't receive any calls. Lots of fees though :)


The biggest scammers are the banks themselves. They scam you all the time.


Game recognize game
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby rama0929 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:22 pm

stuart wrote:
Neither would I be if people are more than willing to shell out for basic protections that are free throughout the rest of the world. A great deal for the banks, as they get the customers to pay the costs of fraud so they don't have to bother trying to reduce it. Look how long it took for Chip & PIN to be implemented here. Won't surprise me if they eventually ask you to pay for the production of the credit/debit card itself, and to pay the graphic design a fee directly for the pretty design on it.

I've used BCP and BBVA cards throughout Peru and if I remember, in Arg, Chi, and Ecu, and didn't receive any calls. Lots of fees though :)


You're going to see more of a movement to chip & pin as the liability shifts to banks. Merchants were getting hammered, and it was just as well, given they weren't in compliance with Payment Card Industry standards (any fines the banks receive are eventually passed on to the merchants who in turn pass them on to their customers.)

The reason why they were reluctant to change was because they weren't losing enough money. No sense in implementing a major change for something that may be at around 20% of a card portfolio, and that's probably being generous.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby meggyrosey » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:22 pm

I had the same thing happen to me with my BIF debit card...I was not able to get the money returned because it was withdrawn from a Global Net...even though I contested and fought...no such luck :( i know several people that this has happened to with different banks and generally the banks don't do anything...

what do the clone things look like???
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:19 pm

meggyrosey wrote:I had the same thing happen to me with my BIF debit card...I was not able to get the money returned because it was withdrawn from a Global Net...even though I contested and fought...no such luck :( i know several people that this has happened to with different banks and generally the banks don't do anything...

what do the clone things look like???


You can't see them. The just put a copy of the face of the ATM over the ATM. They don't interfere with the normal operation of the ATM. You can withdraw money at them as usual. But between the real and the copied ATM front there's a small computer that records your pincode. (So, covering the keypad with your hand makes no sense) and they put before the real card reader another one that reads your card details.

This goes quick. You could be withdrawing money with your card at an ATM at Avenida Larcomar in Lima and an hour later someone withdraws money with a copy of your card in Bulgaria.

The only safe way to withdraw cash and that is what I do, is go inside the bank and withdraw money from my account at the teller.

Looking around if no one is watching or covering the key pad with your hand makes no sense as the information of your card is copied behind the ATM face.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/checkin ... unt-1.aspx
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby rama0929 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:36 pm

meggyrosey wrote:I had the same thing happen to me with my BIF debit card...I was not able to get the money returned because it was withdrawn from a Global Net...even though I contested and fought...no such luck :( i know several people that this has happened to with different banks and generally the banks don't do anything...

what do the clone things look like???


http://krebsonsecurity.com/all-about-skimmers/

http://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/atm-skimmer/
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:32 pm

rama0929 wrote:
meggyrosey wrote:I had the same thing happen to me with my BIF debit card...I was not able to get the money returned because it was withdrawn from a Global Net...even though I contested and fought...no such luck :( i know several people that this has happened to with different banks and generally the banks don't do anything...

what do the clone things look like???


http://krebsonsecurity.com/all-about-skimmers/

http://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/atm-skimmer/


Everyone should look at the websites you mentioned. I am aware of those things allready. That's why I always withdraw money inside the bank. INTERBANK always ask for and ID unless the employee knows me already.
Another place to be carefull is in the air. Some airlines charge for drinks or sell duty free. I've seen colleages in the past that wrote down passengers name, credit card number, expiration date and security code of credit cards in their notebook.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby rama0929 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:29 pm

chi chi wrote:
Everyone should look at the websites you mentioned. I am aware of those things allready. That's why I always withdraw money inside the bank. INTERBANK always ask for and ID unless the employee knows me already.


You're not safe there either
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078573/ns/ ... C26D7RiFac

http://searchfinancialsecurity.techtarg ... -for-fraud

http://articles.philly.com/2012-08-04/n ... aud-scheme

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-17/b ... ud/4136636
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:53 pm

Anytime banks invent a new security system to avoid fraud, criminals find a new way to steal money or get around the security system in place. The criminals are always ahead.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby stuart » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:35 am

I've had bank tellers in Peru try to cheat me and lie to me. I've also had ATMs give me less money than I've withdrawn. It's all just part of life in everyone's-out-to-get-you Peru.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby fanning » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:41 am

stuart wrote:I've had bank tellers in Peru try to cheat me and lie to me. I've also had ATMs give me less money than I've withdrawn. It's all just part of life in everyone's-out-to-get-you Peru.

Once by my own mistake I forgot S/. 30 with a bank teller in BCP. After some hours I found it out, went back to the bank. She counted all her cashregister, and had exactly S/. 30 too much, which she gave back to me. So also positive experiences exists with bank tellers ..
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby Kelly » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:44 am

It is crazy how different each person's experience can be - I've been here about the same length of time as Stuart, and I've never had a bank teller try to cheat me and have never lost money at an ATM.

This is not to say that those things don't happen - I know they do. I've just been really lucky, I guess.

Or maybe because I always have so little in the bank, they feel sorry for me :/
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby stuart » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Firstly, although maybe saying everyone in Peru is out to get you is a bit over the top, you all know what I mean by it. Trust is not something you can dish out freely here by any means. Personally, I also think I've been very very lucky during my time in Peru, very little bad has happened to me compared to the horror stories other people tell. I'm way more towards the lucky side than the unlucky side, and for that I'm thankful.

As for bank tellers, I've had really nice helpful people attend me too, my negative experiences were:

1) B*tch gives me a five USD$20's - I check them all and go outside. I notice I'm in the car, before I leave and putting them away properly, and notice that one side of one of the $20s is absolutely covered in writing, smiley faces and nonsense in permanent marker. I go back into the bank, walk past the queue as soon as the person being attend is finished and said look at this. B*tch says that bill's not from her, that she would never have accepted it so it couldn't have come from her. A fuss is made, manager tells me that all bills passing through the bank get watermarked in UV ink, that the bill as a UV mark with BCP, but that it could have some from any BCP bank or any ATM. He then said they're not changing it, and that if I wanted, I could go to another bank and try to trick them into accepting it!!! That would be morally wrong, so instead I went to spend it in Ripley.

2) Teller tries to short me 1000 soles on a withdrawal of 5000 - like I wouldn't notice!

3) Teller tells me that I should upgrade my card protection and insurance, that the current one only covers me up to X soles. I didn't have any insurance. He tells me I do. I say I never asked for it or signed anything. He tells me I must have, the bank would never cheat me. He then gives me a form to fill out to cancel it. I start filling it out but then near the end I see it is an application for the very service he said I have. It must work by commissions and this guy makes money by tricking people into signing up. I didn't take this any further, for all I know he'd withdraw my money or close my account in retribution, I just got out of there.
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby chi chi » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:15 pm

rama0929 wrote:
chi chi wrote:
Everyone should look at the websites you mentioned. I am aware of those things allready. That's why I always withdraw money inside the bank. INTERBANK always ask for and ID unless the employee knows me already.


You're not safe there either
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078573/ns/ ... C26D7RiFac

http://searchfinancialsecurity.techtarg ... -for-fraud

http://articles.philly.com/2012-08-04/n ... aud-scheme

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-17/b ... ud/4136636


I sounds that the safest way to keep your money is the old fashioned way.

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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby craig » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:09 pm

Kelly wrote:It is crazy how different each person's experience can be - I've been here about the same length of time as Stuart, and I've never had a bank teller try to cheat me and have never lost money at an ATM.

This is not to say that those things don't happen - I know they do. I've just been really lucky, I guess.

I don't see how, but it seems almost like it is a matter of attitude.

I have had almost nothing but good experiences with Peruvians, Peruvian banks, businesses, taxis, everything, etc.

The one and only time I can ever remember being cheated was once when a teller at Banco de la Nacion shorted me by one sol.
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It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. -- Thomas Jefferson
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Re: WARNING! Bank fraud...

Postby Saramira222 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:03 pm

Thanks to all for your responses. The good news is that my bank already credited my account for the lost money. Whew! The bad news is that it will take about 3 weeks to get the new card, but I can live with that.

All's well that ends well!

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