WHAT ARE THE WAGES???

[Philipc4u59]

Hello expaters,

I am wondering what are the wages for the COMMON JOBS in Peru?

* Housekeepers/domesticas & condo cleaning personnel
* Food preparation/cooks; wait staff (small "Mom & Pop" restaurants)
* Cashiers - retail & food
* Security guards (not armed) - parks & private
* Street cleaners

It is so difficult to imagine that these people can LIVE, with the exorbitant prices in Lima (housing).
I try to tip these people at equal to 1-2 hours of work; at this may make a difference in their quality of life.

We as expats probably have never had to live under these circumstances - WE ARE TRULY BLESSED!

Philip

[Sergio Bernales]

Philip, if you wish to help people on low incomes, give money to a charity that is really doing something for people's future in Lima whether it's welfare or education. Excess tipping helps nobody. Fine, if your maid does a good job cleaning the house, give her a little extra, a Christmas bonus or whatever. But tipping elsewhere makes many ordinary Peruvians in service jobs think that gringos have too much money and are only happy to give it away. You create a culture that then expects above what the going rate is and ultimately spread disappointment when nobody else pays it.

Many people also don't pay what you see as excessive rents in the main districts of Lima. They live with their families and pay no rent, or if they're domestic servants, they live rent free with their employers. Many also invade land and live in barrios jovenes, usually perched high in the cerros in Lima or the edge of the city. Surely you've seen all these dusty concrete shanty towns when you drive along the Panamerican. Even many parts of San Borja and Surco were invaded and people continue to live there rent free. Yes, sometimes the quality of the accommodation is pretty poor, but paying money to charities to improve living standards, such as sanitation, waste collection, recycling, basic healthcare helps much more than excess tipping.

And all the stories of gringos being told to hide while their Peruvian boyfriends/girlfriends makes a deal with a taxi driver, market traders, or tourists finding excesses charges in their hotel or their restaurant bill,or getting pestered in the street by hawkers, waiting staff, etc, are because of this kind of behaviour. You not only make life difficult for expats on a budget by tipping excessively, you make every gringo a target for the unscrupulous. Please tip like a Peruvian or for excessively good service and if you want to help people's lives, put your money into programmes that raise basic living standards for whole communities in barios jovenes.

By the way, the minimum wage in Peru is 750 soles a month, or around $290. Average income per capita at PPP in Peru is $10,000 (just under $6,000 at real exchange rates) Porters earn about $400 a month, supermarket staff about $300, plus benefits such as healthcare and holidays. Nannies and maids earn between $2,000-4,000 a year, often with meals and accomodation includes. Waiting staff in restaurants have wide variations in pay and in many of the smaller restaurants, they are family members working together.

[calygirl]

Well said, Sergio. I totally agree.

[MarcoPE]

Ditto ... Sergio, I couldn't have said it better myself!

However, I am thinking that a maid's average salary isn't $2,000 - $4,000, at least not any of the ones I have seen....

[chi chi]

By the way, the minimum wage in Peru is 750 soles a month, or around $290. Average income per capita at PPP in Peru is $10,000 (just under $6,000 at real exchange rates) Porters earn about $400 a month, supermarket staff about $300, plus benefits such as healthcare and holidays. Nannies and maids earn between $2,000-4,000, often with meals and accomodation includes. Waiting staff in restaurants have wide variations in pay and in many of the smaller restaurants, they are family members working together.

Those are the wages paid in the rich districts of Lima. But outside those areas, people rarely make the minimum wage. In the provinces, those wages even drop much lower than that.

Waiters and shop staff make between 300 and 450 soles a month. And mostly work 7 days a week and up to 12 hours a day.
Maids, 300 tot 450 soles a month if they are lucky. Some don't get a wage. Just room and board. And often work long days off 16 hours.
Cleaning staff 200 - 400 soles a month.

That's why many people from the provinces and from outside the rich districts are going to work in the rich districts of Lima because to them, they are going to make '' loads of money'' and what do they mean with ''loads of money''? They mean 750 soles a month.
And like Sergio said, those people live in the outer suburbs of Lima. The often commute 2 or 3 hours to go to work in Magdalena, San Miguel, Chorillos, Callao, Miraflores, La Victoria, etc.

[Sergio Bernales]

Thanks MarcoPE and Calygirl. And you're right, Chi Chi, that a lot of people don't earn the minimum wage and make much less. However, in terms of Philip's questions re low paid workers like guardias and supermarket workers, street cleaners and security staff, the municipalities and large supermarkets generally follow the law and will pay their cleaners and tellers at least the minimum wage. Serenazgo guardias will earn more. Restaurant staff in small places will be paid much less than nice restaurants and the tips will be smaller, but often the staff are family.

MarcoPE, the figure I quoted for maids and nannies $2-4000 a year was based on what Peruvians I know pay and what I pay. And yes, I'm aware that many people pay less, but in Lima at least, wage inflation and a growing middle class means there is growing competition for the best domestic staff. My gf's mother did hire a teenage girl from Huancayo as a live-in employee and paid her 300 soles a month, but the girl spent most of her time moving a broom in a circle while staring at the TV. If she washed a plate or a cup, I always wanted to wash it again before using it. I think her presence actually made the house look dirtier. The gf's mother went back to using the same women I do on a part-time basis. As with any industry, if you pay less, usually you get what you pay for. Do you really want someone you pay peanuts and you don't trust in your home?

The figure for the nannies comes from my gf's sister and husband who pays their nanny $3,000 a year plus meals and board and the woman is fantastic. Many nannies are paid less, but what is common is that after bonding with the child and proving themselves competent, many nannies threaten to leave unless theyr'e given a big raise, sometimes double. Some parents pay and some don't. It's best to pay the going rate or above to someone competent in the first place. In terms of comparing the quality of this childcare with Europe and the States, it's marvellous if you find the right person.

My figure for cleaning is based on the woman who cleans my house. She asks for 30 soles for an afternoon, or 50 soles for the full day including lunch and breakfast, so presuming she's working six days a week, as most Peruvians do, she has the potential to make between 1,200 and 1,500 soles a month. I know that holidays, illness, etc can knock that figure down, but she seems happy with her pay. And a close Peruvian friend pays his live-in employee only 750 soles a month, but that includes her food and her room. As well as cleaning, she is expected to cook. To American and European eyes, it seems like low pay, but as Chi Chi says, many Peruvians are paid far less, so this is a reasonable job. Fortunately, in my four years in Peru, every Peruvian I've met pays their employees what they feel is a reasonable rate and treats their employees well.

[Josh2U]

Phil has the right idea. Help out the people out there humping making a buck and not depending on charities and welfare. I personally do not trust charities.
Too bad if it puts other expats in a bad light. I have worked in places where I depended on tips. I will never be so cheap as to not leave a decent 15% tip or not tell the taxi driver, keep the change.
Tipping helps no one? I bought my first Harley with tips.

[Philipc4u59]

I can remember when I was 12 & working as a bus boy in a friends restaurant in the US.
I received far below the minimum wage (as I was underage - but classified as "family"); I would always make sure the tables were impecably clean - as the watresses were busy & they didn't take the extra time.

The restaurant had its REGULARS, that noticed my work ethic & would give me a 25 cent tip; in addition to the 15% for the waitress. I saved my money (including tips) until 16 & bought an old car. I was the only person of modest income to have MY OWN WHEELS in high school; it was a "slider" (rusted) - but MINE!

At Christmas time, I was in a very small restaurant in a bad section of Barranco (got lost trying to visit my wife at work). I had a wonderful fish meal (including soup) for 7 soles; I gave the delightful woman 10 soles & told her it was OK - I didn't want any change (3 soles).

Her face was GLOWING & she kept saying "Feliz Navidad, etc." in a loud voice; as I was leaving, a person explained to me that the extra 3 soles was enough to buy a nice toy for her young son. I am a firm believer that God has blessed me as an American & it PLEASES HIM that I bring JOY to others; hopefully my GOOD HEART will be contageous.

The small deeds of one person, can truly "make a difference"...

Philip
PS - I also give to charities, but have been informed much of the money is not allocated properly

[Lloyd007]

Hold on. This can't be right.

Nanny's and maids earn between $2000-4000 a month?!?!?

Are they looking after 20 kids at a time and cleaning a 20 bedroom palace everyday?

SERIOUSLY?

[chi chi]

Hold on. This can't be right.

Nanny's and maids earn between $2000-4000 a month?!?!?

Are they looking after 20 kids at a time and cleaning a 20 bedroom palace everyday?

SERIOUSLY?

Damm, if I knew that, I came to Peru 20 years ago. I would be living in a penthouse in San Isidro and driving a Mercedes by now.

[MarcoPE]

Hold on. This can't be right.

Nanny's and maids earn between $2000-4000 a month?!?!?

Are they looking after 20 kids at a time and cleaning a 20 bedroom palace everyday?

SERIOUSLY?

I was thinking maybe its a different type of maid service

[bobg]

GIVE THEM A TIP! WOULDN'T YOU LIKE SOME RECOGNITION FOR A GOOD JOB ? ITS GOOD FOR THE PERSON , IT'S GOOD FOR THE BUSINESS PEOPLE LIKE GOOD SERVICE AND TELL OTHERS. CHARITIES HAVE TO MANY PEOPLE SPLITTING THE MONEY, GO TO AN ORPHANAGE GIVE DIRECTLY, THESE CHILDREN CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES , AND THEY HAVEN'T FORMED ANY PRECONCEIVED IDEAS ABOUT AMERICANS.
THE BIBLE SAYS TO HAVE CHARITY, BUT IT ALSO SAYS GOD HELPS THEM WHO HELP THEMSELVES

[lyndelld]

Amen, bless others because we are blessed.

I can remember when I was 12 & working as a bus boy in a friends restaurant in the US.
I received far below the minimum wage (as I was underage - but classified as "family"); I would always make sure the tables were impecably clean - as the watresses were busy & they didn't take the extra time.

The restaurant had its REGULARS, that noticed my work ethic & would give me a 25 cent tip; in addition to the 15% for the waitress. I saved my money (including tips) until 16 & bought an old car. I was the only person of modest income to have MY OWN WHEELS in high school; it was a "slider" (rusted) - but MINE!

At Christmas time, I was in a very small restaurant in a bad section of Barranco (got lost trying to visit my wife at work). I had a wonderful fish meal (including soup) for 7 soles; I gave the delightful woman 10 soles & told her it was OK - I didn't want any change (3 soles).

Her face was GLOWING & she kept saying "Feliz Navidad, etc." in a loud voice; as I was leaving, a person explained to me that the extra 3 soles was enough to buy a nice toy for her young son. I am a firm believer that God has blessed me as an American & it PLEASES HIM that I bring JOY to others; hopefully my GOOD HEART will be contageous.

The small deeds of one person, can truly "make a difference"...

Philip
PS - I also give to charities, but have been informed much of the money is not allocated properly

[MarcoPE]

I can't speak for the others, but my understanding of Sergio's view was regarding excessive tipping ... I don't believe he was saying not to tip at all.

[Josh2U]

What's the difference? I bet some would argue leaving any tip is excessive.

[Lloyd007]

I wouldn't worry about it much. I've been in Peru for a long time and I can count on one hand the amount of times someone gave such outstanding service that I would leave a nice tip. Typically, service and attitude of those serving you is so bad (by our standards anyway, although it's considered the 'norm' here) that there will be very few ocassions that you would leave a tip anyway! jaja.

[Sergio Bernales]

I doubt a handful of gringos tipping excessively to random waiters and service staff is going to make one iota of difference to people's lives here. Nobody's life is going to change because Philip left a 10 sol tip for a seven sol set lunch. What kind of toy can you buy for three soles? If you wish to buy children Christmas gifts, as far as I understand it there's an organisation that accepts gives and stores them at Parque Kennedy each year and gives them to the poor.

A good point to remember is once when I wanted to give my porter a Christmas bonus, tip, my girlfriend, said if you want to give him something then give him a paneton or a food hamper that he can share with his family. If you give him money, he'll just go out and spend it on liquor.Use your brain, Philip, and help people in a way that's bound to make a difference.

And I doubt anyone in Peru is going to be able to go out and buy a second hand car because Philip tipped him a few soles. Yeah, if everyone in Peru is tipping, you've got a point, but they're not. Excessive tipping is only done by people who have come from a different country who don't understand the culture here. You and a handful of tourists are the only ones. Nobody else tips excessively. You've got to think about how you can seriously help the lives of these people instead of dropping a meaningless amount of money into their hand to salvage your conscience. As they say, give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish..

And I didn't say don't tip, I said tip as a Peruvian does or for very good service, otherwise you make gringos targets for the unscrupulous who think we have money to just throw away. And as for tipping taxi drivers - it's not the culture here. Nobody tips them. Do you tip bus drivers in the US? That's what it's like tipping a taxi driver here. And anyway what fool would tip these dangerous maniacs who ignore red lights, cause accidents, traffic jams, speed excessive and no doubt kill children with their erratic driving? All that happens when a taxi driver here is tipped or given too much is that he looks for gringos to make more money and asks for outrageous fares. For those of us that live here and know the fares, it's basically a form of racism. I don't want to pay more than the going rate because I'm a foreigner and because Philip was his last customer and paid him double the going rate.

As for the poster who said they don't trust charities? Well, it's very easy to look into accounts and salaries and what these organisations do. If the CEO is earning a six figure sum and workers on the ground are driving around in SUVs then yes, you have a point, but there are many charities here in Peru that are working on basic infrastructure, like sewage, refuse collection, education and are filling in for the failure of government. Why not go and work for one voluntarily? South American Explorers keeps a list of organisations looking for volunteers to teach children, help organise decent sanitation, build low cost housing, etc. Ciudad Saludable for one is bringing recycling to barrios jovenes than had no refuse collection before.

Sorry, Philip, I don't doubt your heart is in the right place and you want to do the right thing, but being generous with excessive tipping in Peru is not "contagious". It just makes foreigners targets for the unscrupulous. I would urge you to go to a place like South American Explorers, find an organisation or charity whose goals you support and then volunteer your time or money and along with your good nature and enthusiasm, I'm sure you will be able to do a lot of good.

By the way it was $2-3000 a year for maids.

[Josh2U]

That is a harsh unfair judgement on the porter. Why should she care what he spends his gift on anyway? It would be the porters gift after all.

If you do not want to pay an outrageous fare then don't pay it. But don't blame someone who was generous on you being asked to pay more than the going rate. Whatever that is. Could be any number of reason why he quoted what you felt an outrageous fair. In a system where the driver and the passeger decide, there is no going rate, it is whatever the two agree on. If there is such a thing as a going rate why do we have to negotiate a fare before taking off?

[Sergio Bernales]

That is a harsh unfair judgement on the porter. Why should she care what he spends his gift on anyway? It would be the porters gift after all.

If you do not want to pay an outrageous fare then don't pay it. But don't blame someone who was generous on you being asked to pay more than the going rate. Whatever that is. Could be any number of reason why he quoted what you felt an outrageous fair. In a system where the driver and the passeger decide, there is no going rate, it is whatever the two agree on. If there is such a thing as a going rate why do we have to negotiate a fare before taking off?

Yes, many porters are good hard-working people and the money will help them, but unless you actually know them well, it's better to give a constructive gifts. It's common in Peru to give panetones, food to employees at Christmas and less common to give them money. In the case of this porter, it wasn't an unfair judgement. The man was sacked a few months later for being drunk at work. He was slumped over the reception desk passed out and nobody could get in the building without a key. The junta re-employed him at a later date as the building's cleaner.I can give you the name of the building and the management company if you can be bothered to go along and check it out.

Yes, a taxi fare agreed between two parties is a private affair and that is how I treat it. Usually I have to stop three or four taxis before any of them quote me anything near the right fare. What's worse is the amount of taxis drivers who kerb crawl gringos is ridiculous. Not only are they holding up the traffic, but if you actually ask them the fare, it's usually double the going rate just because I'm a gringo. Why? Because other gringos have paid more. And generous is not the right word to use when tipping taxi drivers. The taxi drivers don't see it that way. They don't think, what a piece of luck, what a nice man. They think foreigners have too much money and will pay above the going rate.

[Lloyd007]

Because other gringos have paid more. And generous is not the right word to use when tipping taxi drivers. The taxi drivers don't see it that way. They don't think, what a piece of luck, what a nice man. They think foreigners have too much money and will pay above the going rate.

Other gringos have paid more because they were unaware of what the rate should be. As for the final part of your comment Sergio, you are absolutely right. People never think, ''oh, what a nice man and thank you for the tip''. The twisted minds think that you have money to burn and therefore so does everyone else from other countries. It is very sad, but it is perhaps true.

[Sergio Bernales]

Because other gringos have paid more. And generous is not the right word to use when tipping taxi drivers. The taxi drivers don't see it that way. They don't think, what a piece of luck, what a nice man. They think foreigners have too much money and will pay above the going rate.

Other gringos have paid more because they were unaware of what the rate should be. As for the final part of your comment Sergio, you are absolutely right. People never think, ''oh, what a nice man and thank you for the tip''. The twisted minds think that you have money to burn and therefore so does everyone else from other countries. It is very sad, but it is perhaps true.

Yeah, that's very true, Lloyd. Most people don't know the fares. I usually ring the gf if I'm going somewhere I haven't been before and then figure that on top of whatever she says, I'll probably have to pay one or two soles more. But in the case of Philip and Josh, they actually are tipping the drivers, so that's why I didn't mention that.

And, Josh, it's not cheap to not tip a taxi driver. Do you tip bus drivers in your home country or the pilot of your plane? That's what it's like. It's just not the culture here. Only foreigners do it. That's why so many kerb crawl gringos. I had an Australian friend when I was staying in Canada a few years ago and he never tipped anyone as he said, we generally don't tip waiters or bar staff in Australia. Well, he was doing what was normal in his culture, but it affected the quality of service he got in Canada if he went back to the same place and got the same waiter. Doing what's the cultural norm in a country is the usually best for all.

And, Josh, while I agree with you about helping people out who are trying to help themselves and yes you make a good point that some charities are inefficient and turn people into scroungers who expect something for nothing, many charities here in Peru are filling in for the failures of the state and are actually doing things like providing basic sanitation, refuse collection, primary education. Sure, you can give that taxi driver or waiter three soles for good service, but it's not going to change the fact that his home has no running water, or basic sanitation facilities in the street where he lives. That's what real poverty is and that's where we can help.

[Philipc4u59]

To set the record "straight"; the 3 soles I tipped for a meal was for EXCELLENT SERVICE & A SINCERE SMILE!
I understood that the waitress needed these few extra soles; to add to HER OWN & get a Christmas present.
This was Dec. 24 & she probably already knew what to expect in wages; 3 soles was probably 1-2 hours work but made her wishes a REALITY. What a small amount to witness such JOY!!!

As for tipping taci drivers; I tip if the driver ends up in construction or anything that wasn't forseen; if they are idiling in traffic - they aren't making any money, plus using valuable fuel. Also I tip if I have antigues that I am bringing back to the showroom; they take the time to be careful & place in the trunk delicately.

I am all for "teaching a person to fish"; but have no remorse for showing a bit of EMPATHY for people who work for very low wages & have families to support. Be thankful as EXPATS; we have been BLESSED with a life-style that some Peruvians can only dream about...

Philip

[chi chi]

What's worse is the amount of taxis drivers who kerb crawl gringos is ridiculous. Not only are they holding up the traffic, but if you actually ask them the fare, it's usually double the going rate just because I'm a gringo. Why? Because other gringos have paid more. And generous is not the right word to use when tipping taxi drivers. The taxi drivers don't see it that way. They don't think, what a piece of luck, what a nice man. They think foreigners have too much money and will pay above the going rate.

If you use a taxi then it means that you have a lot of money. Otherwise, you would take the bus.
You can go anywhere in Lima for than 1.50 soles. Why take a taxi? You should know that taxis in Lima are very expensive.

There's public transport in Lima available that's modern, clean safe and punctual. And the fares are democratic. And you don't have to bring money with you. Just slide your prepaid fare card through the reader at the stations or busstop.

http://www.metropolitano.com.pe/
http://www.lineauno.pe/estaciones.php

[Sergio Bernales]

To set the record "straight"; the 3 soles I tipped for a meal was for EXCELLENT SERVICE & A SINCERE SMILE!
I understood that the waitress needed these few extra soles; to add to HER OWN & get a Christmas present.
This was Dec. 24 & she probably already knew what to expect in wages; 3 soles was probably 1-2 hours work but made her wishes a REALITY. What a small amount to witness such JOY!!!

As for tipping taci drivers; I tip if the driver ends up in construction or anything that wasn't forseen; if they are idiling in traffic - they aren't making any money, plus using valuable fuel. Also I tip if I have antigues that I am bringing back to the showroom; they take the time to be careful & place in the trunk delicately.

I am all for "teaching a person to fish"; but have no remorse for showing a bit of EMPATHY for people who work for very low wages & have families to support. Be thankful as EXPATS; we have been BLESSED with a life-style that some Peruvians can only dream about...

Philip

Hi Philip, I totally agree that it's fine to tip for good service and I'm glad you put a smile on the waitress's face. I'm talking about excessive tipping and paying more than the going rate because we're foreigners. You wouldn't expect a Peruvian to pay more in the States than you do for the same service. For that matter the GDP per head of Norwegians is much higher than Americans, but nobody expects them to tip more. They expect them to tip the going rate. And that's what we should do in Peru. And like I said, if you want to help improve people's lives, there are better ways to do it. As I said in my previous post, a few soles isn't going to put running water in someone's home. But donating money or time to an organisation that does such things will and improve the quality of life for low paid Peruvians.

[Sergio Bernales]

If you use a taxi then it means that you have a lot of money. Otherwise, you would take the bus.
You can go anywhere in Lima for than 1.50 soles. Why take a taxi? You should know that taxis in Lima are very expensive.

There's public transport in Lima available that's modern, clean safe and punctual. And the fares are democratic. And you don't have to bring money with you. Just slide your prepaid fare card through the reader at the stations or busstop.

http://www.metropolitano.com.pe/
http://www.lineauno.pe/estaciones.php[/quote]

You've got a point Chi Chi, the metropolitano is great, although usually it gets very crowded, but regarding combis versus taxis, to me this is relative. If ever I run short of money, yes, I'll use a combi. But I have to say, I really don't like them. I can scarcely fit in the seat, there's so little space. Most of the drivers are dangerous. I hate it when they get crowded. Sure, if you catch one at a quiet time of the day, it's a cheap and easy way to get around and indeed, they can be safer than some of the taxis out there. However, being used to the extortionate taxi fares back home, Peruvian taxis still seem pretty good value.

[bobg]

SERGIO YOU MAKE SOME GOOD POINTS AND NOT SO GOOD POINTS, HAVE YOU TRIED TO GET THE BOOKS OPENED AT ANY CHARITY ? GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ! YOU HAVE YOUR MOTIVE FOR GIVING GIFTS, AND SIZE OF TIPS, AND YOU SHOULDN'T IMPOSE YOURS BECAUSE ITS THE CULTURE, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU GOT EVERYTHING BACKWARD.
GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ,,,,,,,,,,, AND LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT, GIFTS ARE GIFTS , TAKE IT AS A GIFT THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE UNLIKE SOME OTHERS THAT HAVE ,AND CAN DO GIFTS AND TIPS, WHAT KIND OF WORK DO YOU DO?

[Josh2U]

I wouldn't be surprised if tipping pilots and bus drivers is against company policy. I know tipping stewardesses is. Those people are salaried anyway, taxi drivers are not. In the US they rent the taxi and pay for fuel and anything after that they can keep. Not tipping is being cheap.
It may not be the culture here to tip but I have found generosity is. Americans are known as generous people, what is wrong with overstepping a cultural boundary to prove that? It is no sweat off my back.

[tomasb]

Part of the US culture is to tip. The reasons are diverse but many Americans have found themselves at one point or another on the opposite side of the table. For me, I was a caddy as a teenager and made nice tips that helped me through college. During one summer, I recall that I made more money from tips than my first year teaching high school.

Since so many Americans work their way through college with waiter, bartender and other tip oriented jobs, we as a cultural entity take tipping as a natural way of giving back. I think Sergio does not understand that concept as it pertains to the US.

I may be generalizing about Peru, but the upper and middle class younger people I have met here never have worked in these service capacities like taxi drivers, doorman, waiters etc. It is considered lower class work and beneath them so they do not learn the value to their society by tipping through giving or receiving. It ultimately can raise everyone up a notch in the socio-economic classes.

As far as non-profits are concerned, many of them in Peru are scams designed to benefit the founder and giving lip service to the supposed beneficiaires. This can also be true in the US. Contributions end up paying for people's salaries, some of which are quite high. It is a racket of the highest order.

[Sergio Bernales]

SERGIO YOU MAKE SOME GOOD POINTS AND NOT SO GOOD POINTS, HAVE YOU TRIED TO GET THE BOOKS OPENED AT ANY CHARITY ? GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ! YOU HAVE YOUR MOTIVE FOR GIVING GIFTS, AND SIZE OF TIPS, AND YOU SHOULDN'T IMPOSE YOURS BECAUSE ITS THE CULTURE, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU GOT EVERYTHING BACKWARD.
GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ,,,,,,,,,,, AND LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT, GIFTS ARE GIFTS , TAKE IT AS A GIFT THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE UNLIKE SOME OTHERS THAT HAVE ,AND CAN DO GIFTS AND TIPS, WHAT KIND OF WORK DO YOU DO?

Bob, there's no need to be abusive. My head isn't in my ,,,,, I don't deny anybody the right to give what they want to who they want. I will happily tip generously for good service where it's expected, or give Christmas gifts to the porters in my building. I'm merely saying that many low paid Peruvians live in barrios where there are often no basic services, even running water or refuse collection. Philip believes that overtipping can change these people's lives. I don't. I think it's counterproductive. I think it's better to improve the lives of people by getting involved in initatives that go out and raise the standards of living of those people.

Josh thinks that charities that give welfare creates a culture of entitlement where people expect something for nothing. I think overtipping by foreigners in Peru does the same thing. Giving someone who earns a low wage a few soles as a tip isn't going to change their life, but improving infrastructure and public services will.

[bobg]

WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING ? ARE YOU AN EDUCATOR ?
i APOLOGIZE FOR COMMENT, i BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU CAN DO WILL HELP IT JUST SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE STUCK ON THE OLD WAYS CHANGE COMES ..........

[Sergio Bernales]

Part of the US culture is to tip. The reasons are diverse but many Americans have found themselves at one point or another on the opposite side of the table. For me, I was a caddy as a teenager and made nice tips that helped me through college. During one summer, I recall that I made more money from tips than my first year teaching high school.

Since so many Americans work their way through college with waiter, bartender and other tip oriented jobs, we as a cultural entity take tipping as a natural way of giving back. I think Sergio does not understand that concept as it pertains to the US.

I may be generalizing about Peru, but the upper and middle class younger people I have met here never have worked in these service capacities like taxi drivers, doorman, waiters etc. It is considered lower class work and beneath them so they do not learn the value to their society by tipping through giving or receiving. It ultimately can raise everyone up a notch in the socio-economic classes.

As far as non-profits are concerned, many of them in Peru are scams designed to benefit the founder and giving lip service to the supposed beneficiaires. This can also be true in the US. Contributions end up paying for people's salaries, some of which are quite high. It is a racket of the highest order.

Sure, scams exist. Did you hear about the milk for children scam in Chorrillos where an organisation basically kept all the money? But I think it's important to look into the organisations you're involved with. You can donate your time and not your money. You can look at their track record. Just blindly giving to random charity is not exactly going to help anyone, I agree. It's just like overtipping a waiter who's done nothing more than what he's supposed to, which is bring you your food.

And I agree that tipping is appropriate if it's part of the culture and it can help people, put them through college, or even buy them a motorbike or a car. But here in Peru nobody is doing that apart from a few tourists and foreigners. So when we give too much, we become targets for the unscrupulous. Overtipping is so rare here among Peruvians that nobody is going to pay their way through college. All that happens is people just think foreigners have too much money and we are here to be exploited.

Many of the poor people we tip often haven't had a secondary education, some don't have running water in their homes. We can help them by getting involved in organisations that do this. We avoid scams by joining the board, looking with our eyes at what they do, instead of blindly giving.

We can help them by

[Josh2U]

Sergio I am impressed and thank you. I did not think I made that point clear enough, 'culture of entitlement', that is exactly what I was trying to say.
Another thing I in no way think anything I do say or give will change anyones lives. Maybe you did not direct that at me but I just want to be clear.

[Sergio Bernales]

WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING ? ARE YOU AN EDUCATOR ?
i APOLOGIZE FOR COMMENT, i BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU CAN DO WILL HELP IT JUST SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE STUCK ON THE OLD WAYS CHANGE COMES ..........

Bob, I work part time as voluntary teacher in a children's school in a barrio joven and I'm studying for a masters in economics. I'm writing a paper just now on the spending power of low earners in developing countries and how microlending can help develop small business. Basically, the theme is how can small businesses can grow when they are denied access to credit from the banking industry and what can be done to create better infrastructure to help them grow and become job and wealth creators.

[Josh2U]

I don't mean to pry and I don't really expect an answer. It may be none of my business.
You make a living, buy food clothes and housing, by volunteering studying and writing a paper?

[Sergio Bernales]

I don't mean to pry and I don't really expect an answer. It may be none of my business.
You make a living, buy food clothes and housing, by volunteering studying and writing a paper?

That's okay, Josh. I get a grant. It's sort of like a paid sabbatical.

[chi chi]

Part of the US culture is to tip.

In the US, it's an obligation to tip waiters, porters, valets and some other professions as they only get a very low or no basic pay at all. Tips are their wage and not an extra like some people think.

I am personnaly against that system because only the businessowner benefits from that. If the waiter takes vacation, is off sick or the restaurant doesn't get a lot of customers then his wage drops down to an amount he can't live off. Cooks and dishwasher get a fixed hourly or monthly pay so they don't have to worry about that.
Also when the cooks prepare the food badly or let the customers wait one hour to get his food then the waiter will be the victim because that will affect his tips whilst the kitchen staff won't care about that at all.

Last year we ate at a wellknown diner in LA and we talked to the waitress. She has been a waitress for 36 years and she told us that he wage is gone down every year since the last 9 years due to the crisis. Less customers come trough the door and they pay less tips. She was used to make around $80 a day. Now she's lucky to get $30 a day and she often works double shifts for that. She has to move in with her sister as she couldn't afford the rent and had to sell her car and take the bus to work.

In Europe, waiters get a fixed pay. Mostly similar to kitchen staff. But tips cause often a grudge between kitchen staff and waiters as only waiters get tips. However in some restaurants I worked in, tips get equally shared amongst cooks, waiters and dishwashers.

[chi chi]

Part of the US culture is to tip.

In the US, it's an obligation to tip waiters, porters, valets and some other professions as they only get a very low or no basic pay at all. Tips are their wage and not an extra like some people think.

I am personnaly against that system because only the businessowner benefits from that. If the waiter takes vacation, is off sick or the restaurant doesn't get a lot of customers then his wage drops down to an amount he can't live off. Cooks and dishwasher get a fixed hourly or monthly pay so they don't have to worry about that.
Also when the cooks prepare the food badly or let the customers wait one hour to get his food then the waiter will be the victim because that will affect his tips whilst the kitchen staff won't care about that at all.

Last year we ate at a wellknown diner in LA and we talked to the waitress. She has been a waitress for 36 years and she told us that he wage is gone down every year since the last 9 years due to the crisis. Less customers come trough the door and they pay less tips. She was used to make around $80 a day. Now she's lucky to get $30 a day and she often works double shifts for that. She has to move in with her sister as she couldn't afford the rent and had to sell her car and take the bus to work. Getting another job isn't an option for her as she's 54 years old and only has work as a waitress so far.

In Europe, waiters get a fixed pay. Mostly similar to kitchen staff. But tips cause often a grudge between kitchen staff and waiters as only waiters get tips. However in some restaurants I worked in, tips get equally shared amongst cooks, waiters and dishwashers.

[falconagain]

Personally as a Peruvian I prefer to tip, whether I am in the US or in Peru.
People will always make strange assumptions about foreigners no matter what
you do. If they never traveled the assumptions would be more outrageous.
Myths like "all gringos are rich", "gringos are not very sharp", "the United States
is responsible for the widespread poverty in the world". No matter what I do,
the stupidity of some people gets straight to the bone. Its genetic, no matter
the color of your skin.

Better to tip if you feel that is fair for you and the other. Then if people start
gossiping about you or other foreigners, it is not your concern. They will do it
anyway.

[Seaimpin_Na_nDaoine]

Part of the US culture is to tip.

In Europe, waiters get a fixed pay. Mostly similar to kitchen staff. But tips cause often a grudge between kitchen staff and waiters as only waiters get tips. However in some restaurants I worked in, tips get equally shared amongst cooks, waiters and dishwashers.

yep thats true in Ireland I worked in many bars/restaurants in Dublin and all tips were to be kept behind the counter until closing time and then divided equally amongst all the staff but i worked in bars in London and they didn't do that there usually a customer would order a few pints and then would say "and one for you too mate" which would mean you keep the price of a pint but then again the wages for bar staff and waiting staff in the UK are considerable lower than Dublin so the tips were needed more where as back home it was just a little bonus hardly worth getting excited about.

I think you are all right in a way, for me I always tip the waiting staff in restaurants here unless I get bad service but I wouldn't tip more than a couple of soles, as for taxi drivers I would never tip mainly because I have to haggle them down between 5 - 10 soles sometimes more before I even get in the cab but its not just gringos they over charge/ quote they do it to Peruvians too

[Sergio Bernales]

Personally as a Peruvian I prefer to tip, whether I am in the US or in Peru.
People will always make strange assumptions about foreigners no matter what
you do. If they never traveled the assumptions would be more outrageous.
Myths like "all gringos are rich", "gringos are not very sharp", "the United States
is responsible for the widespread poverty in the world". No matter what I do,
the stupidity of some people gets straight to the bone. Its genetic, no matter
the color of your skin.

Better to tip if you feel that is fair for you and the other. Then if people start
gossiping about you or other foreigners, it is not your concern. They will do it
anyway.

Very good point. There's nothing wrong with tipping consistently for good service and if you use a place regularly. You want the waiter to make sure he's taking care of you. After all, he's serving you something that you're going to put in your mouth. You don't want to antagonise him. However, Chi Chi makes a good point about Europe. In places like France, it's not common to tip in restaurants and the waiters tend to be well trained, silver service, etc, so are paid a decent wage in the first place. So if a professional trained waiter is already being paid a reasonable wage, why would you pay more? In countries where waiters are paid less, then tipping is common. What happens in the UK is it's common to put an optional 10% service charge on the bill. If your service was terrible, you don't pay. If your waiter treated you like royalty, you can give him more.

Maybe my analogy doesn't work, so I'll edit it out for now, but I stil think taxi drivers are essentially businessmen and should be treated that way and not as victims who should be given large tips when none is expected. And as Seaimpin_Na_nDaoine says, most foreigners and wealthy Peruvians are already being overcharged for their taxi in the first place . Now, if you're already getting charged over the going rate, why would you want to tip? I don't mind paying that sol or two extra, but when it comes to the guys who ask me for double the going rate, that really winds me up. And another thing most taxis use natural gas which is a fraction of the price of petrol. Their costs are not as high as you think. Yes, the initial investment is $1,200 and ultimately as businessmen, taxi drivers will expect it to more than pay for itself. But after the investment's paid off, their rate of return then rises and thus they are able to offer competitive taxi fares.

[richorozco]

I don't know if that's the best analogy because the US system is based on capitalism and free market. When you sell a home or car, you ask for top dollar based on what you think your home is worth (after looking at MLS listings, Zillow, etc...). Similarly, for a car one would look at a NADA or Kelly Blue Book for prices.

It's up to the purchaser to find out what the going rate is....and go from there.

Think about auctions, garage sales, stock market, home sales, car sales, etc....

You tip someone based on the service you receive....If the person goes out of his or her way to do something and you feel good, yes you should tip ... although I do understand that tipping 20% in Peru may "train" the Peruvian workers to bad behavior.

As for cars that operate on natural gas, the conversion kits go for $1200 so you have to take into account return on investment and using natural gas ruins yours cylinder heads and engine (the MFG did not design all the components of the engine to work on natural gas). So now, as a business man (yes ... the taxi guy is running his business) you have to take depreciation in to account as well.

In a free market, and especially where there are tourists, it is up to the client to know or become aware of going rates and then pay accordingly. There are tourist traps every where in the world... 3rd world countries included.

If you really want to make change... petition the government to enforce the use of meters. Even cities in Mexico use a meter system. Of course, you have to audit the companies, calibrate the meters, etc....

[falconagain]

Salaries for professionals according to their careers.
Source
http://www.diariolaprimeraperu.com/onli ... 86609.html
May 2011

google translated article

In our country(PERU) the wages offered by employers as careers and years of experience of an applicant is between S/.5,000 to S/.7 500 , according to a study by online recruiting company Bumeran.com. The salary range is offered to those professionals who have more than five years of work experience in the careers of Medicine, Dentistry and Chemistry.

However, in these careers can vary remuneration S/.800 to S /. 5.000 according to the candidate's skills and level of education and years of experience.

In the case of the Engineering in its various branches, and Ecology, Architecture, Computer and Information Technology, Economics, Geography, Hospitality, Public Relations, Tourism, Veterinary, Geology and Environment, presents another important level range wage.

Thus, a professional engineering careers can have income ranging between S /. 600 and S /. 5,500, depending on whether candidates are practitioners, graduates or have one to five years of professional experience.

On the other hand, such as law, Management, Accounting, Communications, Sociology, Social Work, Public Administration, Anthropology, Nutrition, Finance, Marketing, Psychology, Human Resources / Industrial Relations, Procurement / Purchasing, Sales / Sales, have a range of remuneration is also from S/.600 to S /. 4,000.

Racing as Fine Arts, Philosophy, History, Mathematics, Archaeology, Literature, Pharmacy, Education Science and Production, have a range of pay ranging from S/.550 to S /. 3,000.

According to the study the careers that have a lower salary range is Call Center, Translation, Food / Cooking, Laboratory (Mechanical) Dental, Library Science, Technical Drawing, Industrial Design, Costume Design, Textiles, Fashion, Secretariat, Music, Physical , Photography, and Graphic Design Nursing, reporting earnings ranging from S /. 550 to S /. 2,500, depending on whether candidates are practitioners, graduates or have one to five years of professional experience.

[Josh2U]

Regarding Sergios analogy.

I do not think it is the best analogy either. There is an implication here that taxis that charge one fare, usually lower, are honest and the ones that charge a higher are dishonest. What is dishonest. They are not stealing anything just asking for what they think the market will bare after all there is no set in stone concrete fare system. Freedom and capitalism at its best.
Further, I would think it would not take long for the Chinamen to figure out that fares should be negotiated. Their first stop might be to China town for a fine meal where they will learn some ins and outs. Just as word gets around that a Chinaman will pay more to the taxi drivers by the same token word gets around to the Chinamen they are being exploited.
They may even be satisfied with the fares they had been charged. I find haggling over just a few soles difference in fares is a waste of my time.
Do I want the lowest fare? Sure. The taxis are so ridiculously low in Peru if I were to pay twice the fare I have ever been charged it would still be a bargain.

[Sergio Bernales]

I don't know if that's the best analogy because the US system is based on capitalism and free market. When you sell a home or car, you ask for top dollar based on what you think your home is worth (after looking at MLS listings, Zillow, etc...). Similarly, for a car one would look at a NADA or Kelly Blue Book for prices.

It's up to the purchaser to find out what the going rate is....and go from there.

Think about auctions, garage sales, stock market, home sales, car sales, etc....

You tip someone based on the service you receive....If the person goes out of his or her way to do something and you feel good, yes you should tip ... although I do understand that tipping 20% in Peru may "train" the Peruvian workers to bad behavior.

As for cars that operate on natural gas, the conversion kits go for $1200 so you have to take into account return on investment and using natural gas ruins yours cylinder heads and engine (the MFG did not design all the components of the engine to work on natural gas). So now, as a business man (yes ... the taxi guy is running his business) you have to take depreciation in to account as well.

In a free market, and especially where there are tourists, it is up to the client to know or become aware of going rates and then pay accordingly. There are tourist traps every where in the world... 3rd world countries included.

If you really want to make change... petition the government to enforce the use of meters. Even cities in Mexico use a meter system. Of course, you have to audit the companies, calibrate the meters, etc....

Actually, I'm not sure metering always works. When I was in Quito, the drivers always took me the most circuitous route - often a few miles longer - and then when we arrived at our destination, they would claim not to have change. I invariably would pay $5 for a fare that would cost me a $1.50 when I was in a car with an Ecuadorian. I would have gone to a shop and asked for change, but it was usually at night when everything was closed and I always took cabs at night as large parts of Quito are dangerous. Thinking about this, if I only pay a few soles above the going rate in Lima, Peruvian taxi drivers are pretty decent on the whole.

Once when I was in San Borja and stopped a taxi driver and asked him to take me to Miraflores. He said he was finishing up for the day and heading in the other direction, but seeing I was a foreigner said, when you get a cab, don't pay any more than seven soles. That's the going rate. Now, that man is a man I would tip. I think we just have to be wary of the chancers who ask double the going rate or even the crooks who pose as taxi drivers and rob people.

By the way, folks, I think we've gone off topic and Falconagain has gone back to Philip's original question about what people are paid. Perhaps we should start another thread on Philip's other point, what's the best way to help improve the quality of life for low-paid Peruvians?

[Philipc4u59]

I AGREE!!!

Philip

[Josh2U]

You take it off topic raise some points that need addressing. Some back and forth goes on. You raise yet some other points that need addressing but before any one can you want to close your off topic. OK message understood. Back to the topic.

[Sergio Bernales]

You take it off topic raise some points that need addressing. Some back and forth goes on. You raise yet some other points that need addressing but before any one can you want to close your off topic. OK message understood. Back to the topic.

Well, Josh, it certainly got a debate going, but the issue of tipping taxi drivers was probably worthy of another thread. I'll open one now and it'll be interesting to see what people say. We can open another one on tipping in general if you want. Ignoring their crazy road antics, I think most taxi drivers here are good people and thinking about it again, I don't really want to use them as a punching bag to get my point across about overtipping sometimes doing more harm than good. But the subject of tipping them is an interesting one, because most foreigners will tip and as you say it's their right. If they're doing it out of ignorance and are already getting overcharged, then maybe it's up to them to find out what is the going rate. However, for those of us who live here and get kerb crawled and honked at and quoted outrageous prices by a few unscrupulous drivers, it can get a bit frustrating, but hey, we're here. We should accept that's what happens.

Frankly, I think most of the posters agree on certain things, like ultimately any transaction is between the parties involved and it's your right to pay or tip what you see as fair. I'm in complete agreement. I'm happy for Philip that he felt good about himself for putting a smile on a waitresses's face with his Christmas tip. However, he felt this small gesture could help change lives. I have severe doubts. I just felt that in the bigger scheme of things, if we wish to help the poor, we shouldn't just throw money at them now and again. Better to look at things like building basic infrastructure in the barrios jovenes where most of these people live and increase their access to state services like basic schooling, healthcare, etc. Like we were saying earlier, you can create an entitlement culture if you just give money or food away. I think that culture can even extend to overtipping. Some people start to think they're entitled to the extra tips that gringos give where perhaps it's not merited or the gringo is like me who tips what his Peruvian friends and gf tells him is an acceptable tip. A few soles in a small cafe, 10% in a nice restaurant and nothing to taxi drivers.

Going off topic slightly, but trying to think about the good and the bad side of giving, there are some strange examples of good deeds causing bad behaviour. The generosity of many countries in helping the victims of the famine in Africa in the 80s through things like LiveAid looked like a wonderful thing. However, once the famine was over, the food continued to come in. Small farmers were put out of business and went from being productive members of society to recipients of food aid, abandoning their land in the process. What was worse was the charities and aid agencies didn't have control of the food distribution and many gangs controlled the food and charged for it. Rebel soldiers were also known to be taking the food. It's amazing how a good gesture can have perverse effects.

[chi chi]

what's the best way to help improve the quality of life for low-paid Peruvians?

It's simple. Tackling government corruption where a lot of the tax income ends up in politicians their pockets and tax the rich and the business a high income tax.
That money can be used to build social housing units, free education and healthcare. And pay wellfare benefits to the unemployed and the ones that can't work due to sickness or the handicapped people.

And pay people a pension they can live off without having to sell caramelos on the street to supplement their lousy pension.

[Sergio Bernales]

what's the best way to help improve the quality of life for low-paid Peruvians?

It's simple. Tackling government corruption where a lot of the tax income ends up in politicians their pockets and tax the rich and the business a high income tax.
That money can be used to build social housing units, free education and healthcare. And pay wellfare benefits to the unemployed and the ones that can't work due to sickness or the handicapped people.

And pay people a pension they can live off without having to sell caramelos on the street to supplement their lousy pension.

Completely agree, Chi Chi, but look what happens to people when they try and change things here. Susanne Villaron for one has suffered heavily at the hands of vested interests. I've just read a judge has ordered that rat infested dump La Parada market to be reopened. Look what happened with the recall and all the shady figures running the campaign against her. She might not be Lima's most efficient mayor, but one thing most people agree on is that she's probably the least corrupt the city's ever seen.

[chi chi]

wages for bar staff and waiting staff in the UK are considerable lower than Dublin so the tips were needed more where as back home it was just a little bonus hardly worth getting excited about.

I was used to work as a waiter in the UK at Heathrow airport and the only customers that left a tip were the Americans. When Americans walked in the restaurant, we were often fighting about who's going to serve them.