Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

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NelsonSuarez
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Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby NelsonSuarez » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:07 pm

So Peruvian Airlines flies 737 200s. These are on average > 30 years old and can be had for as little as US$200,000 in the market. Every proper airport in the region has a few of them rotting on the side of the tarmac. Their "new" replacement fleet of 737 300s (if they get that far) hasn't been in production in 10 years.

You fly what you pay for..

N


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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby americorps » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:31 am

Just curios, Nelson.

Do you have any actual proof or evidence that these planes are outdated, in bad shape or have any problems in any way...or are you just going to stick with the isinuation?
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby NelsonSuarez » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:59 pm

Well they certainly are very old, see below registration history. The 732s (you can spot them by the cigarette shaped narrow engines) are like what the original volkswagen beetles are to cars. They're everywhere in emerging markets, they do run if they're maintained well, but with a startup in peru flying 30-ish year old planes that have been operated by half a dozen operators in the past at least I don't feel comfortable..

Plane number 1:
01/07/1981 Lufthansa D-ABHC
30/05/1997 Ryanair EI-CNW Stored 02/2006
02/05/2007 Pluna CX-PUE
01/12/2007 Star Peru OB-1851-P
01/10/2009 Peruvian Airlines OB-1851-P

Plane number 2:
30/04/1982 Britannia Airways G-BJCV
01/11/1985 CP Air C-GXCP
30/04/1986 Britannia Airways G-BJCV
26/10/1987 Canadian Airlines C-GCAU
03/04/1988 Britannia Airways G-BJCV
31/01/1989 Air Sul CS-TMA
09/04/1990 Britannia Airways G-BJCV
21/01/1994 Ryanair EI-CJC
22/06/2006 Star Peru OB-1839-P
01/07/2009 Peruvian Airlines OB-1839-P

Plane number 3:
30/12/1982 Western Airlines N4571M
01/04/1987 Delta Airlines N4571M
01/09/1995 Lithuanian Airlines LY-BSG
11/02/2006 Star Peru OB-1823
01/10/2009 Peruvian Airlines OB-1823


Very different for LAN:

Plane 1:
22/10/2005 LAN Airlines CC-CPF
01/08/2007 LAN Peru CC-CPF

More at: http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Peru ... e-b737.htm

You can check stats for accidents here:
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/database.htm

One would have to look very close to see why each of the 737 accidents happened, but there are a number of older ones involved (though don't know as percentage of stock of each type of 737)

My point is, these guys may very well be safe, but they have no track record and their equipment doesn't make it any easier to believe that they would be safe, because old equipment requires very diligent service. For example, would be great to know where these guys send their planes for service. Someone like LAN and other big airlines send theirs to a few well-established and regulated international service centers. Peruvian airlines? Don't know, they could be sending them off or not (i.e. do in house), again we don't know.. why take the risk?
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby euroman » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:13 pm

It all depends of the maintenance and the checks done by the transport authorities.
I was used to work as a flight attendant for 10 years.
I worked on brandnew and old aircrafts. The age of the aircraft doesn´t make a difference.

The airlines with the worst safety records are the american and african airlines.
The best are the arab and asian airlines.

I am impressed with the cleanliness of the latin american airlines something that the american and european airlines can learn from. I travelled regulary with Avianca, Copa Airlines and Starperu and their (old) aircrafts look new and are very well maintained.
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby NelsonSuarez » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:23 pm

Actually, not. The US airlines are the safest, followed by the Europeans:

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/rates.htm

and :

www.airsafe.com (website is down right now, but it's a different data source and provider)

Like I said (and you repeated), if the plane is well maintained it's great. The problem is, this company has no track record. You can't observe if it maintains well or not. You'd have to give it a few years of operations.. in the meanwhile, i'd rather sit in a badly maintained 2-year old plane with internationally trained pilots than a 30-year old one with pilots not sure where from..
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby NelsonSuarez » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:25 pm

sorry one more thought: would i fly in a 30 year old plane that Lufthansa or Delta owns and operates? For sure, any minute..
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby NelsonSuarez » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:44 pm

Before you lynch me:

- Avianca is actually the oldest still operating airline in the world (next to KLM). Their trackrecord is HUGE. Their old 767's and MD 80s are quite crappy, but yes I feel a lot safer flying those than i would with star peru or peruvian airlines. Now, on the other hand their pilots: Avianca is infamous for losing a plane over new york because the captain didn't speak enough English to advise JFK he was running out of gas, so he kept on circling and circling..

- Copa used to be a Continental Airline subsidiary and they still maintain a 10% shareholding (Continental IPOed it). It uses the same brand almost, and is a star alliance member. Besides their planes are rather new (very nice embraers and latest generation 737 700s and 800s like Continental)
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby americorps » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:53 pm

which is it? Old planes are bad or old planes are fine?

Do you have any maintenance records to prove your presumption that this new airline has unkempt planes? do you have anything that shows anything wrong or are you again just trying to allude to something you can not really show?

You keep making remarks, and giving bits and pieces of info, some of which contradicts yourself, so I am curious why you try to make your point in that matter, and what is your ultimate point?

It seems that you are maybe upset that most of the people here, and INDICOPI and as seen on discussions on dozens of other websites that the majority of people agree that LAN is not treating customers fairly in its pricing practices and deserves a little competition and a little scorn...and is being investigated for such and you don't like that.
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby NelsonSuarez » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:07 pm

Old planes run by a good operator like Lufthansa, Delta, heck, Avianca, TAM should be fine, because these operators have long observable maintenance, training and operations track records, verified by reputable, strong regulators

Old planes run by someone without a track record and a country with weak government institutions: you don't know what you're getting yourself into. You might be lucky, you might not. You don't know. The problem is information. Yes, you have the local aviation authority to supervise that the planes are maintained well, but do you trust the Peruvian police? Or the firemen? Or any authority here? Again, maybe the local regulator is good, but maybe it's not. We can't observe. We can observe however that the FAA or its European equivalent have 100 years of diminishing accident rates..

It's like a new music band comes along and lands a hit: were they successful because they have inherent talent, or did they just get luck with a one-time wonder? You have just one data point, so you can't tell which way it goes. But of course a bad rock band won't cost you your life..
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby stuart » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:39 pm

Considering the owners of this airline are known for paying off congresistas and for importing dangerously converted junk cars from foreign markets that kill Peruvians in accidents frighteningly often - do you really want to fly with them Americorps? I don't think the onus is on Nelson or the links he posted to prove what they are saying, it's more on Peruvian Airlines to prove that they now consider human life as something valuable. You're defending Stalin because you hate Hitler.

I wouldn't open a savings account in Bernie Madoff's start-up bank either.
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby ibanker » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:42 pm

americorps wrote:which is it? Old planes are bad or old planes are fine?

Do you have any maintenance records to prove your presumption that this new airline has unkempt planes? do you have anything that shows anything wrong or are you again just trying to allude to something you can not really show?

You keep making remarks, and giving bits and pieces of info, some of which contradicts yourself, so I am curious why you try to make your point in that matter, and what is your ultimate point?

It seems that you are maybe upset that most of the people here, and INDICOPI and as seen on discussions on dozens of other websites that the majority of people agree that LAN is not treating customers fairly in its pricing practices and deserves a little competition and a little scorn...and is being investigated for such and you don't like that.


Nelson made his point perfectly actually when he posted the history of the two planes this new airline is flying. If your hate for LAN doesn't let you see that Peruvian airlines is flying planes that are almost 30 years old then you have way bigger issues than getting mad over a measly $175.

The fact is that LAN is going to be around long after your campaign will be. But have fun wasting time protesting.
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Re: NEW PERUVIAN AIRLINE. LOW RATES FOR EVERYONE

Postby americorps » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:43 pm

If that is so, ibanker, why did he then go on to say that he would gladly fly those same plans on other airlines?

I do not mind that he feels differently than I do, I just do not see why he contradicts himself.
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby cajun jamie » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:44 pm

I think I would choose Peruvian Airlines over any bus company in Peru. I do not take buses anymore in Peru - way too dangerous.

I think may Peruvians feel this new airline an option over very dangerous ground transportation, even if the airline is starting out basically "flying a used car."

Sometimes you have to start out small and affordable, then grow and expand. I am hoping Peru has diligent requirements the airline must meet to get off the ground.
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby mahou123 » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:53 pm

There is a controversy surrounding Peruvian Airlines owner, César Cataño Porras. Apparently RENIEC cancelled his DNI because it´s not his real name and he´s got multiple identities. That´s according to El Comercio newspaper. According to the same newspaper, he´s investigated for alledged drug money laundring and some suspicious activities.

However, all this can also be some media campaign engineered by competitors, or something that will turn up not to be correct later. His lawer and Airline CEO is Lourdes Flores, prominent politician and former presidential candidate. It is arguable that she wouldn´t get in something too dodgy.

In any case, for something called ´Peruvian Airlines´ and aspiring to be a flag carrier, if everything they´ve got is a couple of old planes, costing $200k each, it sounds quite miserable. There is really a great opportunity in Peru to develop an airline, to open direct flights to Asia, to open other international airports, to connect regional centres on the coast with cities in selva using smaller planes, to make Lima a gateway to South America for SE Asia, etc. But someone needs to be serious about it, and this includes the government. Someone needs to invest serious money, buy new planes, open new routes. Until this happens, LAN will dominate Peruvian market.

I personally will continue flying LAN, even if tickets are more expensive, just because their planes are less than 2 years old on average, and service is constantly good. Just to support a good business.
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby NelsonSuarez » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:19 pm

Americorps, sorry I realised later that my messages, being responses to various previous posts had gotten a little out of order. I'm not contradicting myself, here's why:

Like euroman says, in itself old planes are not a problem. That is, when you KNOW they are well taken care of and that the operator is proper. However, when
a) you don't know if the planes are well maintained (check for Peruvian AIrlines), and
b) you don't know if you can trust them (check again),
what's the reasonable thing to do when judging them? Give them the benefit of the doubt that they're "the good guys"? Really? Your life is on the line..

I'm just saying: until they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they're up to the standards of top airlines, stay away!

Why do I single out old planes? Because we have limited information. If I knew they had brand new planes, I would know that they were well enough financed to mount a proper operation, likely have a good business plan (though in the airline business you never know) and i know that they won't do their maintenance in house because the planes are too complex. Plus new planes require less maintenance. So I feel quite a bit safer. Here I know the planes are old which opens up all sort of non-salubrious possibilities. It's not the planes in themselves, but what they might hint at..
Yes, I'm conjecturing, absolutely, but we all are, we are working with limited information and we need to make a SAFE decision..

Lastly, I really couldn't care less if the carrier is called Lan, or copa, or taca, if it's a proper mounted operation with good business partners and a track record i fly them..gol is a perfect example! (note their accident was not their fault, the plane got rammed by a brain dead civil pilot) Maybe gol should open shop here..also I wonder why TACA never expanded their operations here, they do fly new planes to cusco from lima..(or used to)
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby americorps » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:47 pm

On December 11th, Peruvian company "Peruvian Airlines" will start serving the Lima-Iquitos route, which is good news for passengers who have now another alternative.
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby american_in_lima » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:51 am

I would be curious to hear comments from anyone that has flown them when flights become available.
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby jimychoco » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:05 am

Come on Folks, this is a tempest in a teacup. Every airline has had crashes (Except for Quantas, definately, definately a safe airline... never a crash, definately safe.. Rainman) And depending on who you ask every airline is as safe as the next, ask any pilot who will go up in the plane. A 30 year old plane is not the same as a 30 year old car. Apples and oranges folks. I wouldnt eat a 30 year old pie but I would love to date a 30 year old girl. A mechanic who cares about his job is all you need, regardless of where he works. What mechanic in his right mind would say, "who cares if its well maintained by me or not, its a 30 year old plane, what do they expect?" If it falls out of the sky he has a lot to answer for. If the pilot will take it up, I'll go with him.
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby NelsonSuarez » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:37 pm

If one airline was really as safe as another, I recon the EU wouldn't need a blacklist for airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ai ... pean_Union)?

This list became an urgent concern after Flash air's crash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Airlines_Flight_604) - sloppy pilots, mechanical issues, start up airline with weak funding that went bust right after. The Yemenia plane that crashed in the summer was also banned in the EU, for maintenance reasons..

Flying in Peru is generally less safe than in other parts of the world. For some evidence, have a look at:

Germany's crash record:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/dbl ... ?Country=D

Peru's crash record:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/dbl ... Country=OB

Just add the numbers for any medium period of years to avoid one-year distortions.. suffice it to say that Germany has a TON more flight movements than Peru, yet the only crash of any large airliner in 20 years regarded a in-air collision due to a Swiss air controller's mistake. Quite a few in Peru, and it's not counting the terrible aeroperu crash off the coast.

Also:
http://aviation-safety.net/statistics/g ... eo_loc.php
Yes the US is on top, but it's got a VASTLY larger airline industry. In that light it's not good to see all the Latin countries so far up there..

But to get back to the age issue, and I'm starting to sound like a tape recorder. It's not the age, it's how you handle the plane. Clearly, standards are not the same, neither with operators nor with supervising regulators:

Read this on Peru from just 12 years ago: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/08/trave ... -peru.html

To get a more hands-on example, look at this discussion on airliners.net comparing the old Bolivian national carrier LAB (flew old planes, but terrific safety track record (80 years!!), some of the best pilots in the world) and Aerosur, which has, as you can see from the video (watch!) and the photos further down, some clear issues with safety culture:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/4102588/

A new airline is a blank page. It might be good it might be bad. Wanna risk it for a cheaper ticket? It's like buying a used car: it could be a lemon or it could be not. You can hire an appraiser to help you decide. If the appraiser is the FAA, I'll trust them. But if the appraiser is the Peruvian FAA equivalent, who has itself a bad track record, I'd rather buy a new car, where I can trust the manufacturer (i.e. Lan chile's airbuses))

Cheers,

Nils
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby Rene » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:00 pm

jimychoco wrote:...(Except for Quantas, definately, definately a safe airline... never a crash, definately safe.. Rainman)...

Not entirely true. They have had several accidents with loss of life before the jet airplanes were introduced. And they have had crashes after rainman was made, only no lives were lost and officially they have not lost a plane. But after a skid in Bangkok in 1999 they spent more to repair the plane than it was likely worth. They certainly spent a lot of money to keep their perfect record...
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Re: Discussion of New Peruvian Airline

Postby Rene » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:42 pm

NelsonSuarez wrote:Flying in Peru is generally less safe than in other parts of the world. For some evidence, have a look at:

Germany's crash record:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/dbl ... ?Country=D

Peru's crash record:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/dbl ... Country=OB

Just add the numbers for any medium period of years to avoid one-year distortions.. suffice it to say that Germany has a TON more flight movements than Peru, yet the only crash of any large airliner in 20 years regarded a in-air collision due to a Swiss air controller's mistake. Quite a few in Peru, and it's not counting the terrible aeroperu crash off the coast.

Not denying that the chance of an accident in Peru is higher, but in the light of this discussion where the safety of a new airline with old planes is being discussed you'll have to look at the causes as well. When you look at the data for Peru, you'll see that many of the recent crashes (and note that not all were write-offs or fatal crashes) where in rural areas (amazonia) or in mountainous areas where many airports do not have proper technology, requiring visual approaches. How can you compare that with a country like Germany with well-equipped airports and barely any difficult terrain to navigate?

NelsonSuarez wrote:To get a more hands-on example, look at this discussion on airliners.net comparing the old Bolivian national carrier LAB (flew old planes, but terrific safety track record (80 years!!), some of the best pilots in the world) and Aerosur, which has, as you can see from the video (watch!) and the photos further down, some clear issues with safety culture:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/4102588/

Definitely scary. But if you think that that video alone says so much about AeroSur's safety culture, then what does this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... heels.html) say about that of Qantas, the world's safest airline? I think it says more about the flight controllers that they had not caught it earlier. And it say a lot (very positive) about the quality of the pilot recovering from this human error...

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