Sexism and Peruvian Election

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tupacperu
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Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:37 pm

IMHO: Apra is using women to attempt to win the presidential election in my opinion.
Women often rail against sexism but selection of Nidia Vílchez (former Minister of Women's Housing and Social Development) as 2nd Vice President and Mercedes Aráoz as President looks like sexism in it base form.
No different that a woman being subjected to a dominating man (puppet).

Meche has not had any party affiliation it is just that she is a straight shooter and non-corrupt. Apra is using these women to get back in power and we all know who will be running the show, should Meche win (long shot). Educated women who do not know that they are puppets of a larger machine (male dominated party).
Last edited by tupacperu on Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:59 pm

???


She was ALSO minister of mincetour and is current minister of finance, an Aprista well liked and mostly void of scandal.

Of any well known Apra member, she seems the most qualified to run.

Simply assuming that there is any connection to her sex without the faintest hint of evidence is in and of itself sexism.

You yourself said
she is a straight shooter and non-corrupt
though you left out two minister positions off her resume for some unkown reason.

Also, the President usually helps select his or her running mate and the two have worked together quite a bit in their careers, and have a great reputation for being uniters.

I do not trust APRA as far as I can spit, but your conclusions are difficult to support when including the evidence

I think they found the only 2 qualified, regardless of sex.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby scott » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:44 pm

IMHO: Apra is using women to win the presidential election in my opinion.


You have got to be kidding. The only sexism is in your post. Have you looked at her qualifications and experience? She has a freaking PhD.

Estudios

Es Contadora Pública Colegiada, graduada en la Universidad Nacional Federico Villarreal, los tres primeros años de pregrado los realizó en la Universidad Nacional del Centro del Perú en Huancayo. Es Magíster en Administración de Negocios, MBA, de la Pontificia Universidad Católica del Perú, y Doctora en Administración, de la Universidad Nacional Federico Villarreal. Egresada del Centro de Altos Estudios Nacionales - CAEN.



http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidia_V%C3%ADlchez_Yucra
Visit my blog: http://www.saboraselva.com
Life in the Peruvian Amazon...
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:47 am

Correction - was minister of finance (now an advisor to Garcia).

My point was not about her qualifications nor her education. I am well aware of that. My point, she has not associated politically with any party and now she is being manipulated by APRA because of her qualification and becasue she is a female candidate. You yourself know that in the last decade that the political world has gone after the black vote, gay vote, hispanic vote, white vote and female vote (Patronization).

What female is privy to the inner circel of the APRA elite? She is being used as a ticket to power - puppet (which is not working well). Even Sarah Palin had a political affiliation when plucked out of obscurity. Meche has no political position, she is an economist. Should she win that clean reputation will be soiled by corruption in APRA. What does Meche stand for?

This is as sexist as a car commercial with a bikini clad model standing beside it.

americorps wrote:???


She was ALSO minister of mincetour and is current minister of finance, an Aprista well liked and mostly void of scandal.

Of any well known Apra member, she seems the most qualified to run.

Simply assuming that there is any connection to her sex without the faintest hint of evidence is in and of itself sexism.

You yourself said
she is a straight shooter and non-corrupt
though you left out two minister positions off her resume for some unkown reason.

Also, the President usually helps select his or her running mate and the two have worked together quite a bit in their careers, and have a great reputation for being uniters.

I do not trust APRA as far as I can spit, but your conclusions are difficult to support when including the evidence

I think they found the only 2 qualified, regardless of sex.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:00 am

Politically? what does Meche stand for? poor? wealthy, children? right-wing, left wing?
Where does she stand on issue?

She is there to bring in the female voters and those who lost confidence in the system for Apra.
(She is the lipstick on the PIG) That is her sole function.

The economy is one aspect of the presidency.

Where do I comment in my post about her education? Educated people can be manipulate also. Can you say Madoff?

The point is, suddenly, corrupt Apra is placing women in position of power (un-affiliated women), when we all know who is in control. Villiran and Flores had been long affiliated with a party. Meche who os non-political suddenly becomes the darling candidate (sacrificial lamb).


scott wrote:
IMHO: Apra is using women to win the presidential election in my opinion.


You have got to be kidding. The only sexism is in your post. Have you looked at her qualifications and experience? She has a freaking PhD.

Estudios

Es Contadora Pública Colegiada, graduada en la Universidad Nacional Federico Villarreal, los tres primeros años de pregrado los realizó en la Universidad Nacional del Centro del Perú en Huancayo. Es Magíster en Administración de Negocios, MBA, de la Pontificia Universidad Católica del Perú, y Doctora en Administración, de la Universidad Nacional Federico Villarreal. Egresada del Centro de Altos Estudios Nacionales - CAEN.



http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidia_V%C3%ADlchez_Yucra
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:43 am

She has been very clear for many years that she considers herself an independent but her thinkings are social centrists she and has alligned herself with the APRA philosophy quite openly for years and years.

Again, you are saying things that the evidence contradicts.

For example, you mention the point that she is independent, but you neglect to mention that she has consistantly said she supports the ideas of the Apra Party.

You have often mention the media and it not telling a true or the full story.....And yet.....
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:45 pm

americorps wrote:She has been very clear for many years that she considers herself an independent but her thinkings are social centrists she and has alligned herself with the APRA philosophy quite openly for years and years.

Again, you are saying things that the evidence contradicts.

For example, you mention the point that she is independent, but you neglect to mention that she has consistantly said she supports the ideas of the Apra Party.

You have often mention the media and it not telling a true or the full story.....And yet.....


Aligning herself with Apra and being a card holding APRA member are 2 different things. MY question ,what is her platform? APRA was founded as a left wing splinter party, now Garcia (social democrat) is now a Centerist. Lllosa was a leftist now he is a conservative right. How do we define Meche??? Waiting to hear her platform, or is she a puppet that speak on which ever way APRA blows?

She is an economist and not a politician, she is running on not being corrupt, so what else does she bring to the table? Let's see where she ends up after the elections (which I doubt she wins). That will tell the whole story of where APRAs loyalties are.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby alan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:58 pm

tupacperu wrote:
This is as sexist as a car commercial with a bikini clad model standing beside it.



You´re not baiting, are you Tupac?

Anyway.. great topic..

There were some polls carried out about a year back that showed that the epitome of the candidate acceptable to the majority of voters had the following characteristics: business experience, govt experience, an economist, and a woman. APRA picked up on that and plugged in somebody that was palatable, and electable. I am not sure if that makes them sexist or not, but it certainly seems like good strategy politically speaking. Could we accuse the Fujimoristas of sexism (or ageism) for backing Keiko?
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:12 pm

Alan wrote:
tupacperu wrote:
This is as sexist as a car commercial with a bikini clad model standing beside it.



You´re not baiting, are you Tupac?

Anyway.. great topic..

There were some polls carried out about a year back that showed that the epitome of the candidate acceptable to the majority of voters had the following characteristics: business experience, govt experience, an economist, and a woman. APRA picked up on that and plugged in somebody that was palatable, and electable. I am not sure if that makes them sexist or not, but it certainly seems like good strategy politically speaking. Could we accuse the Fujimoristas of sexism (or ageism) for backing Keiko?



It is a great strategy. Don't get me wrong I like Meche, But if she loses she will be history unless she runs for congress or mayor. Those would be her stepping stones to making a name. Meche is an outsider. I would say a wolf in sheeps clothing (APRA being the wolf).

Meche is a Bureaucrat, that has been her roll. taking orders from the higher ups.

She is the female Panteleon (Panteleon and las Visitores: Mario Llosa - great book and Movie), Panteleon had great business sense but needs someone over him to give orders and direction.


Recent global trend , women are electable and less corrupt. Most women who aspire to be president have background in politics or a political track record or activism (except for Cristine Odonnell - use to be a witch - hehe). Politics is an art, economics=science. A good politician has honed his craft over the years.

Garcia is a great example, all the accusations of corruption in APRA he just changes his cabinet and cleans house and starts a clean slate even if he had prior-knowledge. With Garcia, you are on your own if you get caught (ask Francia Allison). There is an art to distancing yourself.

I would vote for a woman (Keiko).
Keiko was a Fujimorista long before running for president. Meche had no political affiliation prior to here role in Garcia's gov't. Bets are Meche goes back to teaching after the election. IHMO: because she wears the moniker APRA, she is low in the presidential polls, even below Humala.

My mom always said " If you play/lay with pigs you come out smelling just like one of them"
Quickiest way to ruin a reputation is to climb in bed with corrupt people.
I just think Meche is in above her head and does not recognize it.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby alan » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:28 am

It ain-t just Peru.

Latin America in 2011: Year of the female politician

By Rafael Romo, CNN Senior Latin American Affairs Editor
December 30, 2010 -- Updated 2247 GMT (0647 HKT)

(CNN) -- The New Year will be big for female politicians in Latin America.

Brazil will welcome its first female president in 2011. Laura Chinchilla will enter her second year as president of Costa Rica, Alberto Fujimori's daughter has hopes of following in her father's footsteps in Peru and an incumbent head of state seeks to turn her political fortunes around in Argentina.

Dilma Rousseff, Brazil's first female president, was the former chief of staff for her popular predecessor, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.

Ricardo Gutierrez-Mouat, director of the Latin American and Caribbean Studies Program at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, said Rousseff will have her plate full.

"She has a really tough act to follow because Lula was the most popular president throughout Latin America, not just in Brazil," Gutierrez-Mouat said. "In Brazil his acceptance rate was something like 80 percent after eight years, which is incredible."

Jennifer McCoy, director of the Americas Program at the Atlanta-based Carter Center and a professor of political science at Georgia State University, said there will be some differences between Rousseff's government and that of her predecessor.

"I think we'll see a different style from Lula and perhaps more of a focus on the domestic agenda, including the social policy agenda, anti-poverty -- and, of course, the development of the new oil fields in Brazil will be a major portion of her presidency," McCoy said.

Rousseff is the most recent in a line of women holding power in Latin America, along with Chinchilla in Costa Rica and Chile's Michelle Bachelet (who was succeeded in 2010 by Sebastian Pinera).

A woman is expected to be a contender in Peru's April presidential elections. Keiko Fujimori, daughter of former Peruvian president Alberto Fujimori, wants to follow in her father's footsteps, but it won't be easy. She will face strong opponents with long political careers.


Read the full article here>
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/ameri ... .politics/
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:12 am

Alan, This political cartoon drives home my point:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... 3800866351

really funny that some in Peru thinks the same.

Garcia's puppet?
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Kelly » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:53 am

Looks like it's a moot point now -

Peru's Former Finance Minister Mercedes Araoz Quits Presidential Campaign - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-1 ... ate1-.html

Mercedes Araoz quit as the independent presidential candidate for Peru’s ruling Apra party in protest over the nomination of a congressional candidate accused of corruption.

Araoz, 49, said her decision was in line with her demand that Apra party members being investigated for corruption refrain from seeking a congressional seat in April’s elections, the former finance minister said last night in an interview with Lima-based America Television.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:11 am

Kelly wrote:Looks like it's a moot point now -

Peru's Former Finance Minister Mercedes Araoz Quits Presidential Campaign - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-1 ... ate1-.html

Mercedes Araoz quit as the independent presidential candidate for Peru’s ruling Apra party in protest over the nomination of a congressional candidate accused of corruption.

Araoz, 49, said her decision was in line with her demand that Apra party members being investigated for corruption refrain from seeking a congressional seat in April’s elections, the former finance minister said last night in an interview with Lima-based America Television.


The point is not Moot :-). She has been used and now kicked to the curb.

Goes to show that even though Meche complained, APRA got it's way, Meche was put out there to test the waters, since she failed, I doubt if you will hear from her again or her association with APRA. This was a power play and the good-ole-boys won. Looks like Meche made a the decision but behind close door APRA went against her (In short APRA was in control all the time). Meche was just a puppet set out to give a clean image to APRA. If that is not being used, I do not know what is.
She was invited to the APRA "Party". and since she would not dance, she forced out.
She made it clear about Castillo, but fell on deaf ears.

They had a sexist saying in Peru (not in agreement): una mujer callada es mas bonita. Meche spoke up.
Personally I like Meche (Intellegent and pretty) , but she would have done better not to associate with APRA.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:13 pm

As I mentioned:
Sounds like APRA (Garcia) are kicking Meche to the curb, she is of no use now.
APRISTAS are distancing themselves. (Good Ole Boyz club)

ElComercio.pe:

The president wanted to clarify that "never suggested" the nomination of former minister by the party of the star (APRA).

"I never proposed to Mercedes Araoz, for me it was a fact that I informed the comrades who went to her house and suggested that (...) I am not owner of Apra," said the president.

"AN APRA SHOULD BE CANDIDATE"
He said it could have been avoided if he had heeded Apristas because he always thought that "a Aprista should be the candidate."

Garcia said that APRA have always had problems with "guests" because they have to learn to negotiate properly. "If the guest will feel puppet, is the exercise of freedom," he said.

He said he learned of the resignation of Aráoz on television, who has heard and their arguments seem well.

In any case prevented assign responsibility. "No one (...) responsibilities assigned in any case it is collective," he said in a press conference at the Government Palace.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:25 pm

I have still yet to see anything other than your personal opinion that suggests in any way shape or form there is sexism at play here.

I still for the life of me, can not understand why one of the most qualified candidates of the entire batch is questioned simply because of her sex.

I take issue with you over that.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Remigius » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:57 pm

APRA only stands a chance when Garcia is the candidate. No matter who will be candidate, Del Castillo or Araoz, APRA won't stand a chance.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:48 pm

He did not propose the Idea but convinced her???


"He convinced me"
In November last year, Araoz said in an interview with El Comercio that the president encouraged her to run for president by the party of the star.

"He convinced me, He said there were many chances to win," then told Aráoz.

Sexism: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex .
Last edited by tupacperu on Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:50 pm

americorps wrote:I have still yet to see anything other than your personal opinion that suggests in any way shape or form there is sexism at play here.

I still for the life of me, can not understand why one of the most qualified candidates of the entire batch is questioned simply because of her sex.

I take issue with you over that.


Sexism: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Americorp, You cannot see the sexism? Maybe we have different points of view.

Meche was an outsider and did not have the privledge to make decisions.

APRA had no real interest in what she had to say, they just wanted her because she was a woman to bring in votes. Her role was to attract voters, because she is a woman.

When she spoke up? It did not matter.
She was supposed to be an APRA puppet (attractive female with brains and likeable).

She is not a political snake, politics is not a place for Meche, She is a numbers/results person.
Politican are numbers people (votes) too, but no results when it comes to promises.

Do not get me wrong, I like Meche, I just thought she was in above her head when she got in bed with APRA.

Only the future will tell. I am anxious to see her future relationship with APRA. They had already booted her from Minster of Economy, though she was doing well, she was replaced her with a man, then pacified her as an advisor to the president.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:01 pm

Remigius wrote:APRA only stands a chance when Garcia is the candidate. No matter who will be candidate, Del Castillo or Araoz, APRA won't stand a chance.


I agree, the only reason Garcia won is the fear that Humala was about to become president (the best of the worst) :-)
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:05 pm

You said her role was to attract voter because she was a woman.

Again, you have shown nothing that even remotely springs forth as proof of that accusation.

She is not only a qualified candidate, but among the most qualified of candidates.

I see nothing that supports your claim of sexism and in fact, the only sexism I see is your presumption that sex is the only reason she was chosen.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Wine Lover » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:54 pm

Tupac - sexism may not have been the right term of use for this thread but I agree wholeheartedly 100% if everything you have said in this thread.
She's a puppet and nothing else.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:09 am

americorps wrote:You said her role was to attract voter because she was a woman.

Again, you have shown nothing that even remotely springs forth as proof of that accusation.

She is not only a qualified candidate, but among the most qualified of candidates.

I see nothing that supports your claim of sexism and in fact, the only sexism I see is your presumption that sex is the only reason she was chosen.


Anyone is qualified, sarah palin, Reagan etc.. What are the qualifications?
Politics does not require a degree or intelligence. Requires that you can convince people to vote against
Their own interest for the benefit of the politician.
Last edited by tupacperu on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:13 am

You are confused. Anyone can run, that does not make them qualified.

Qualified would included experienced in government, diplomatic, educated, popular with the people, limited corruption. Meche hit all of those.

NOTHING you have shown me shows that her being a woman was the primary cause..in fact, of all the people working for the APRA government and representing the APRA Party line for the last several years, MECHE fit the bill more than any other candidate.

Sexism is a very serious charge, it also diminished Meche because it relegates her to a label, not an accomplished person and respected politician. I resent the implication based on nothing.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby JoshuS » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:27 am

tupacperu wrote:Anyone is qualified, sarah palin, Reagan etc.. What are the qualifications?
Politics does not require a degree or intellegence. Requires that you can convince people to vote against
Their own interest for the benefit of the politician.


Tupac you're so right on...just like Obama is brand, like Benetton, Calvin Klein, designed to make us feel good about our government while corporate overlords loot the Treasury, our elected officials continue to have their palms greased by armies of corporate lobbyists, our corporate media diverts us with gossip and trivia and our imperial wars expand in the Middle East. Brand Obama is about being happy consumers. We are entertained. We feel hopeful. We like our president. We believe he is like us. But like all branded products spun out from the manipulative world of corporate advertising, we are being duped into doing and supporting a lot of things that are not in our interest.
George Carlin said best about politicians, they're there to give us the illusion of democracy, good luck with that.

The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's
profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the
illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just
take down the scenery, pull back the curtains, and you will
see the brick wall at the back of the theater. — Frank Zappa
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:35 am

americorps wrote:You are confused. Anyone can run, that does not make them qualified.

Qualified would included experienced in government, diplomatic, educated, popular with the people, limited corruption. Meche hit all of those.

NOTHING you have shown me shows that her being a woman was the primary cause..in fact, of all the people working for the APRA government and representing the APRA Party line for the last several years, MECHE fit the bill more than any other candidate.

Sexism is a very serious charge, it also diminished Meche because it relegates her to a label, not an accomplished person and respected politician. I resent the implication based on nothing.


What is a puppet? a brainless inanimate copy of a human, who is controlled by another human.

APARA does ito take into account her educations andcomplishments

Meche is not a politician, she is a bureaucrat-You are confused . She has no political background.
Ministers are appointed not voted into office, which makes them beaucrats, not politicians.

My point was never that she was not qualified, it was that she was sacrificing her long career to get in bed with corrupt politicians, (quilty by association). If she had ran as a independent or for some other party , I would agree she is qualified. But she was convinced by APRA and Garcia to run, the decision was forced upon her. (In over her head).

Play or get out - that is why Garcia/APRA removed her from the minister of economy - to make her decision to run by default.

You said it Americorp!
diminished Meche because it relegates her to a label, not an accomplished person and respected politician


Meche was the hot girl in the bikini selling autos in an APRA commercial. Is that not a label/image? She was the clean image in front of the lemon (APRA).

APRA used her image (clean and female-less corrupt) in an attempt to push their agenda, Meche was never in control, (just look how her demands that Castillo not be on the list) - did not respect her wishes, she was an outsider.

The machine at APRA are not imbecils:

It is a well known fact that voters vote for their own kind:
Blacks are likely to vote for a black candidates
Women are likely to vote for a woman

reference material:

the most beautiful female politicians are: (Internationally)

1 - Luciana Leon, 30, Peru
2 - Mercedes Aráoz 47, Peru
3 - Sara Latife Ruiz Chavez, 32, Mexico
4 - Mara Carfagna, 32, Italy
5 - Yuri Fujikawa, 27, Japan
6 - Anna-Maria Galojan, 26, Estonia
7 - Toireasa Ferris, 29, Ireland
8 - Yuliya Tymoshenko, 48, Ukraine
9 - Eunice Olsen, 31, Singapore
10 - Cayetana Álvarez, 34, Spain
Last edited by tupacperu on Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:47 am

Prove it
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:49 am

I am not saying she was not shafted by the party, I have seen NOTHING that proves to me it was because she is a woman and those allegations are serious and I think it is disengenous at best to make them without evidence and possibly irresponsible.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:11 am

americorps wrote:Prove it


:) Image is everything in politics

http://peru21.pe/noticia/467381/mulder- ... ncial-apra

Mulder, Aprista:

With the recent scandals that have been involved the general secretaries of Apra, Congressman Mauricio Mulder believes that his party will have more chance in the presidential elections of 2011 with Mercedes Araoz as a candidate.

"I bet on Meche Araoz. Four days ago I raised, she is a viable candidate. We seek a female figure. I think the future is with Mercedes APRA would be very interesting, would have more chance ", told El Comercio.

About Jorge del Castillo, the party's presidential candidate, said that after recent allegations "will have enormous difficulties to achieve a majority vote" at the party congress.

Among the qualities of the current minister of finance, according to Mulder, is the fact that "is a fresh set of politics, knows, is nearly five years as minister, is beautiful and is so identified with the party."

The lawmaker added that now that Lourdes Flores is released for mayor of Lima, APRA has the potential to reach the second round with Aráoz as an applicant.

Political APRA Cartoon:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QsTVlorNvYE/T ... Baraoz.jpg
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tomsax » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:02 pm

Tupac, I have to agree with americorps on this one.

Surely if sexism is as the definition you have above it isn't sexist to put forward a candidate because she is a women or because she is a beautiful women. Becoming a president or a presidential candidate is hardly a stereotypical role for a women!

It would be sexist NOT to put her forward just becuase she was a women or because she was a beautiful (which by the way from pictures, she isn't). Are you suggesting they should have done that? If you aren't saying that then what is the problem in putting her forward.

I think a lot of people confuse the meanings of sexist and sexy. If a prostitute petitions you she isn't being sexist, she is just trying to earn a living. If you call her a tart then you are being sexist. If a women wears a short dress she isn't being sexist. If you look at her legs that's fine, but if you suppose she must be stupid or a prostitute just because she shows her legs then that is sexist.

APRA just using her for their own advantage is not in itself sexist. If Apra put her forward on the basis that they thought she could be manipulated because she was stupid BECAUSE she was a women, THEN you would have a point. But they would have be pretty stupid themselves to chose a candidate that was that stupid. Usually sexists just don't put women candidates forward at all.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:53 pm

tomsax wrote:Tupac, I have to agree with americorps on this one.

Surely if sexism is as the definition you have above it isn't sexist to put forward a candidate because she is a women or because she is a beautiful women. Becoming a president or a presidential candidate is hardly a stereotypical role for a women!

It would be sexist NOT to put her forward just becuase she was a women or because she was a beautiful (which by the way from pictures, she isn't). Are you suggesting they should have done that? If you aren't saying that then what is the problem in putting her forward.

I think a lot of people confuse the meanings of sexist and sexy. If a prostitute petitions you she isn't being sexist, she is just trying to earn a living. If you call her a tart then you are being sexist. If a women wears a short dress she isn't being sexist. If you look at her legs that's fine, but if you suppose she must be stupid or a prostitute just because she shows her legs then that is sexist.

APRA just using her for their own advantage is not in itself sexist. If Apra put her forward on the basis that they thought she could be manipulated because she was stupid BECAUSE she was a women, THEN you would have a point. But they would have be pretty stupid themselves to chose a candidate that was that stupid. Usually sexists just don't put women candidates forward at all.



You can agree with Americorp. I was ask to prove it:

Playing the gender card is sexist.

Americorp:NOTHING you have shown me shows that her being a woman was the primary cause


She was chosen because she was a woman primarily and she is beautiful (what's this have to do with qualification). Mulder (APRA) said it. (hehehe). Not enough proof?

Beauty as a qualification is sexist. Ask a feminist and see what they say.
Car commercials promoted a product by so-called beautiful women are sexist (period).

Tomsax:
I am just going by what Mulder stated: she is a viable candidate. We seek a female figure

and
Americorp;
the only sexism I see is your presumption that sex is the only reason she was chosen.



I rest my case :).
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Remigius » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:24 pm

tupacperu wrote:She was chosen because she was a woman primarily and she is beautiful (what's this have to do with qualification). Mulder (APRA) said it. (hehehe). Not enough proof?

Beauty as a qualification is sexist. Ask a feminist and see what they say.
Car commercials promoted a product by so-called beautiful women are sexist (period).

Tomsax:
I am just going by what Mulder stated: she is a viable candidate. We seek a female figure

and
Americorp;
the only sexism I see is your presumption that sex is the only reason she was chosen.



I rest my case :).


According to your logic APRA should get Susy Diaz as replacement for Meche.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:05 pm

reread your own quote.

Yes, he did comment that she was both a woman and pretty.

There is absolutely nothing in there that suggests that is why she was chosen, nor did that particular person even chose her.

However, read what you want into it, but you made the accusation and failed to prove it then challenged us to prove you wrong.

That is NOT the way charges of sexism works.

Sexism is a strong charge and those who make it, in this case you, should be held accountable.

A qualified experienced candidate was chosen, and you wish to diminish her because she is a woman and I find that unfair and unsupportable with anything you have put forward.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tomsax » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:43 am

tupacperu wrote:
Beauty as a qualification is sexist. Ask a feminist and see what they say.
Car commercials promoted a product by so-called beautiful women are sexist (period).



I've just asked a feminist and am reliably informed you are wrong.

If a man was chosen partly because they were good looking would that be sexist? You can't have one rule for men and another for women.

Feminists don't have a problem with beauty or women using beauty to advance themselves (at least that goes for the feminists I know) The problem with women promoting cars is that they are usually presented as dumb bimbos. That isn't the case when you choose a women to be a presidential candidate.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:05 pm

Americorp: Yes, he did comment that she was both a woman and pretty.

Correction: Mulder said APRA was looking for a female IMAGE.


Tomsax, beauty contest are sexist according to feminist. So, verbal degradation is not the only action that determines sexism. To enter Meche in a contest becasue she is beautiful is to discount her accomplishments.

As I mentioned above. APRA was looking for a female IMAGE, That she is pretty is a secondary benefit.

But we could go on in on with the merits of each argument. Things will wash out in the coming months.


My opinion and we do not have to agree.

Meche role was trivilized - her demands were ignored that a non-corrupts be on the list for APRA (Congress).
Though corrupt - Castillo had the backing of a male dominated party.

Unintentional sexism

do things that marginalize and otherwise trivialize the experiences of women.

The tendency to use intent, rather than result, to measure whether something was offensive and inappropriate (and therefore sexist) is tied into male privilege and the way that it enables sexist practices to be seen as normal.

The sexism is one born out of ignorance, not malice. People tend to filter the world through their own experiences, but this can lead to sexism because there is still a lot of subtle (and not so subtle) sexism in our social environments.

In the end, though, the important thing to remember is that sexism is defined by the result, not the intent so when people are called out for having said something sexist, it’s not a comment on their intent or character, but rather on the message that was conveyed.



Playing the woman card is sexist
Playing the race card is racist
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby mammalu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:55 pm

Tupac, very interesting post!
BTW, just one clarification, Women don't vote for Women, contrary to what you stated. This has been proven in statistics for many years. Why? I don't know. :roll:
Stand with anybody that stands RIGHT. Stand with him while he is right and PART with him when he goes wrong." ! Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:36 pm

Mammalu, your statement is too general.

Women do vote for women, but the preference is a 2 to 1 margin for men.

That percentage is a little lower for female democrats . Women do not tend to vote for republican women because most women have democratic leaning (liberal attitudes).

Really good book:
"Woman’s Inhumanity to Woman,"

Excerpt:


Women definitely do not want to vote for Republican women.For example, in Connecticut, Republican Linda McMahon has only 34 percent of the female vote as compared to Democrat Richard Blumenthal who has 61 percent of the female vote. In Delaware, Republican Christine O'Donnell has only 25 percent of the female vote as compared to her Democratic opponent Chris Coons, who leads with 58 percent of the female vote; in Nevada, Democrat Harry Reid is beating Republican Sharron Angle by a 51-33 margin. According to pollsters, Sharron Angle is a “staunch conservative, something that tends to turn off female voters.”

Possibly, women as a group may view the Democratic Party as better on certain issues such as women’s reproductive rights and equal rights in the workplace. On the other hand, like men, many women have also lost their jobs, pensions, and homes, and will equally bear the consequences of a foreign policy gone wrong.

Whatever the reason, female candidates just can’t seem to please the female electorate. Women criticized Hillary Clinton for craving power in a non-feminine and “emotionless” way—and liked her when she showed emotion, not when she discussed policy. Women judged her harshly for sticking by her man—and then just as harshly for doing so in order to further her own political ambitions. Women, including progressive women, wanted perfection in their first female Presidential candidate. No political or character “hair” out of place.

Like men, women are also sexists. They still expect women to behave in “feminine” or maternal ways; this includes choosing a man as a protector, not as an opponent to publicly defeat in a very aggressive, “male” way.

Women and girls are more comfortable with expressing their aggression indirectly in less visible ways, through gossip, slander, and ostracism.

In addition, despite exceptions, women do not necessarily like, respect, or trust other women. Even more important, woman do not like another woman getting more attention than they themselves get; cheerleaders, beauty queens, gorgeous actresses are envied and ostracized more often than befriended by other girls and women. Female politicians are in the limelight; their female voters are not.

Psychologically, women do not like “difference.” Women feel safe when their female intimates dress, think, and behave as they do. If a female candidate looks, acts, or thinks “differently” from the female majority, women feel that their own life choices are not being honored. Thus, tough Republican businesswoman, Carly Fiorina, who faces tough career politician Barbara Boxer in California, has been advised to soften her image, to literally pose in her kitchen and wear pink—something she has done.
Last edited by tupacperu on Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Remigius » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:40 pm

tupacperu wrote:
As I mentioned above. APRA was looking for a female IMAGE, That she is pretty is a secondary benefit.


That's not sexism. You can look for something, but that does not mean everything will be set aside to accomplish this. Where is the quote from APRA that clearly states any male candidate per definition would have been ruled out to be a candidate in order to favour a female candidate? Aroaz would not have been candidate were it not for the fact she has a shipload of experience and studies. That she is a woman and pretty (?) may have been an advantage, but clearly not the primary reason she was chosen.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Remigius » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:45 pm

tupacperu wrote:Mammalu, you statement is too general.

Women do vote for women, but the preference is a 2 to 1 margin for men.

That percentage is a little lower for female democrats . Women do not tend to vote for republican women because most women have democratic leaning (liberal attitudes).


You cannot compare the US with Peru. Peru has a macho culture, therefore a male candidate is still favoured above a female candidate, even by women.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:53 pm

Remigius wrote:
tupacperu wrote:
As I mentioned above. APRA was looking for a female IMAGE, That she is pretty is a secondary benefit.


That's not sexism. You can look for something, but that does not mean everything will be set aside to accomplish this. Where is the quote from APRA that clearly states any male candidate per definition would have been ruled out to be a candidate in order to favour a female candidate? Aroaz would not have been candidate were it not for the fact she has a shipload of experience and studies. That she is a woman and pretty (?) may have been an advantage, but clearly not the primary reason she was chosen.


This is not different than selling a car with an attractive female on the hood.

APRA went against MECHE's wishes. Not respecting her intelligence in choosing her team for congress. She was a figure head nothing more. Her ability to make decision only shows that she would not be in control as president. That is why she quit. She state that she would not run for APRA if Castillo or any other candidate in her congressional team were involved in corruption or had a pending judicial action, when she accept to run.

As of recently a veteran APRA official referred to her as "CHICA", she is certainly not a girl, which that could be construed as chic!

You see the glass as half full, I see it as half empty.

OK, Prove to me that she was brought into APRA for her political experience or economic experience ad accomplishments. Show em a peace of news where APRA is Praising her skills to be a presidential candidate.

:)
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:54 pm

Once again, Tupac, you present something that is not verified. Most studies have shown that women tend to vote WOMEN ISSUES, but not women candidates, a trend that has been well documented since the early 1990s.

A woman will tend to vote for a candidate who is, for example, more interested in funding daycare, are pro choice, support equal opportunity, want to fund Rape Crisis Centers and bettered spousal shelters, but that has NOT translated into women voting more for women than men. That used to be the case about 25-30 years ago, but no longer.

Read up on it..you might be surprised what you can learn.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:56 pm

OK, Prove to me that she was brought into APRA for her political experience or economic experience ad accomplishments. Show em a peace of news where APRA is Praising her skills to be a presidential candidate.


Better yet, please show me an Apra potential candidate that is as well experienced, well educated, well liked with high approval ratings, scandal free and has a known name that they could have put forward over her?
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:08 pm

americorps wrote:Once again, Tupac, you present something that is not verified. Most studies have shown that women tend to vote WOMEN ISSUES, but not women candidates, a trend that has been well documented since the early 1990s.

A woman will tend to vote for a candidate who is, for example, more interested in funding daycare, are pro choice, support equal opportunity, want to fund Rape Crisis Centers and bettered spousal shelters, but that has NOT translated into women voting more for women than men. That used to be the case about 25-30 years ago, but no longer.


Read up on it..you might be surprised what you can learn.


The issues are the platform of the candidate.



The magic word "tend".
Mammalu:
Tupac, very interesting post!
BTW, just one clarification, Women don't vote for Women, contrary to what you stated. This has been proven in statistics for many years. Why? I don't know


I stated that women vote 2 to 1 for men. That is a a tendency. My argument was not that women never vote for women. I have read up.

I suggest you read more of my post: (these are recent trends 2010)

For example, in Connecticut, Republican Linda McMahon has only 34 percent of the female vote as compared to Democrat Richard Blumenthal who has 61 percent of the female vote. In Delaware, Republican Christine O'Donnell has only 25 percent of the female vote as compared to her Democratic opponent Chris Coons, who leads with 58 percent of the female vote; in Nevada, Democrat Harry Reid is beating Republican Sharron Angle by a 51-33 margin. According to pollsters, Sharron Angle is a “staunch conservative, something that tends to turn off female voters.”
Last edited by tupacperu on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:12 pm

americorps wrote:
OK, Prove to me that she was brought into APRA for her political experience or economic experience ad accomplishments. Show em a peace of news where APRA is Praising her skills to be a presidential candidate.


Better yet, please show me an Apra potential candidate that is as well experienced, well educated, well liked with high approval ratings, scandal free and has a known name that they could have put forward over her?


This is not about a political party. This is about how an intelligent woman can be used as a puppet by a political party (men). That was the point. I am not a fan of APRA. Meche is qualified, very qualified, but APRA is not the party she should join.

That was the point of this thread: Meche being used by APRA (her image), for APRA's political gain.

Americorp: where's your proof?
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby americorps » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:17 pm

you made the charge of sexism, you have failed to prove it.

I never said she was not being shafted by Apra, just said your false accusations of sexism were unfounded and irresponsible.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:37 pm

americorps wrote:you made the charge of sexism, you have failed to prove it.

I never said she was not being shafted by Apra, just said your false accusations of sexism were unfounded and irresponsible.


Educate yourself:
Book by Tryce Czyczynska 51%: A Women’s Place Is In Politics

Thanks for returning to the point:

Charges of sexism are not irresponsible, it is an opinion.

A woman being used by the powers that be (APRA) is considered sexist in my book. especially if the powers that be put her into a high position only to hold her incapable of making her own decision.

She submitted to being publicly packaged, as a figurehead, while making it clear she wanted to be in command. Her canidacy was purely symbolic?

Was she ever taken serious as the APRA Conservative leadership candidate?
Last edited by tupacperu on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Remigius » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:39 pm

tupacperu wrote:OK, Prove to me that she was brought into APRA for her political experience or economic experience ad accomplishments. Show em a peace of news where APRA is Praising her skills to be a presidential candidate.

:)


You are the accuser, not me. Innocent until proven guilty. You accuse APRA of sexism because they were looking for a female figure, yet your fail to proof male candidates per definition were excluded. Provide that piece of evidence and I will be the first to apologise and say you were right.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby alan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:03 am

Hi folks,

Now that Meche is out, this is a moot point.

Can I suggest we move on to other news?

Alan
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby tupacperu » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:32 pm

Remigius wrote:
tupacperu wrote:OK, Prove to me that she was brought into APRA for her political experience or economic experience ad accomplishments. Show em a peace of news where APRA is Praising her skills to be a presidential candidate.

:)


You are the accuser, not me. Innocent until proven guilty. You accuse APRA of sexism because they were looking for a female figure, yet your fail to proof male candidates per definition were excluded. Provide that piece of evidence and I will be the first to apologise and say you were right.


I will drop out of this debate.
There is no right or wrong only opinions (The first word of this thread started with IMHO: In My Humble Opinion, for those who did not read)

Remigius

Innocent til guilty applies to the US.

Peruvian Judicial System 101

The Peruvian legal system is based on the Napoleonic Code. (Gulty til proven innocent).
Accused spend months in jail before they are brought to trial.

:-).
Alan I agree, it is a moot point now.
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Remigius » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:11 pm

tupacperu wrote:Innocent til guilty applies to the US.

Peruvian Judicial System 101

The Peruvian legal system is based on the Napoleonic Code. (Gulty til proven innocent).
Accused spend months in jail before they are brought to trial.

:-).


Innocent until proven guilty does not apply to the US only, it forms part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which has been signed by Peru (although not respected). Anyway, since the server that hosts this website is based in Utah, it falls under US jurisdiction :) (not that this would make any difference, but it is a funny detail).
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Re: Sexism and Peruvian Election

Postby Kelly » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:16 pm

tupacperu wrote: Alan I agree, it is a moot point now.


Funny you agree with Alan. When i said it was a moot point you replied that it was not.

I call sexism!!! :twisted:

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