water issues in Peru?

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LauraMH
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water issues in Peru?

Postby LauraMH » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:36 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00_pf.html

anyone else read this article. it's quite serious. i didn't realize they were talking 10 years. thoughts? comments?


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goingnowherefast

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby goingnowherefast » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:17 pm

You would think with all the extra water they'd be able to have some stable water supplies in Lima but I'm still stuck without a shower about 2 or 3 times a month : (
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:37 pm

Just more of the imaginery "global-warming" alarmist propoganda. Anyway we can just do what our ancestors did for tens of thousands of years....move somewhere else...migrate to Iquitos or Tarapoto. :lol:
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby americorps » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:25 pm

how anyone can openly choose to simply ignore the facts documenting world wide climate change today is beyond me. There is 2 parts to the debate, 1, is it happening and 2, is man hastening it. The second one is fair game for debate, the first one is not, the weather trends are very clear.
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:18 pm

americorps wrote:how anyone can openly choose to simply ignore the facts documenting world wide climate change today is beyond me. There is 2 parts to the debate, 1, is it happening and 2, is man hastening it. The second one is fair game for debate, the first one is not, the weather trends are very clear.

First of all...I was talking about the non-event of global warming..Europe is in the middle of it´s 3rd successive record-breaking cold winter...not exactly consistent with "global-warming"...2nd...climate change...the climate has ALWAYS changed and always will and there is not a single thing we can do about it. Yes the climate changes and it´s completely natural....12,000 years ago Scotland was un-inhabitable because of glaciers, 50,000 ago Scotland was tropical....it happens all over the world, always has , always will. 3rd..their is irrefutable evidence that the levels of Co2 in the atmosphere FOLLOW climate change (around 800 years in arrears) they do NOT cause it. 4th..The biggest and most powerful "greenhouse gas" is water...good old H20...rather than listen to the propoganda of biased and politically orientated "scientists "..read this, please

An ice sheet on Antarctica began to grow some 20 million years ago. The current ice age, the Pliocene-Quaternary glaciation, started about 2.58 million years ago during the late Pliocene when the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000- and 100,000-year time scales called glacial periods, glacials or glacial advances, and interglacial periods, interglacials or glacial retreats. The earth is currently in an interglacial, and the last glacial period ended about 10,000 years ago. All that remains of the continental ice sheets are the Greenland, Antarctic ice sheets and smaller glaciers such as on Baffin Island.

Ridiculous talk about halting the natural changes of the world´s climate bring to mind ..King Canute.
Last edited by Comet on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby americorps » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:23 pm

most people realize that global warming is a misnomer and that is why I refer to it as global climate change.

I disagree with your opinion that humans do not have any effect on what is happening, I believe that we do, just not as much as suggested..however, that is an opinion and neither you nor I can prove our points as fact.

However, if you are going to argue semantics between global WARMING whilst some parts of the world are cooling or suffering greater fluxuations of climate..than I won't bother..that is semantics, not even theory.
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:29 pm

americorps wrote:most people realize that global warming is a misnomer and that is why I refer to it as global climate change.

I disagree with your opinion that humans do not have any effect on what is happening, I believe that we do, just not as much as suggested..however, that is an opinion and neither you nor I can prove our points as fact.

However, if you are going to argue semantics between global WARMING whilst some parts of the world are cooling or suffering greater fluxuations of climate..than I won't bother..that is semantics, not even theory.


You are missing my point...I am not denying climate change..I am just saying it is normal ...and how can we even imagine changing the climate of the entire world....think about it..it would be easier to alter the orbit of our planet.
The temperature and climate of the world is driven by the temperature of the oceans, the sea temp. is driven by the average amount of cloud cover, cloud cover is determined by sun-spot activity....do you see? To change the climate we would have to control all or even one of those fundamentals. Climate change happened equally; before humankind, before the industrial revolution, before now!
Last edited by Comet on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby americorps » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:34 pm

That is a theory, nothing more, nothing less. As is what I believe. However, you have no right to dismiss any theory that is contrary to your opinion as myth as there is clear evidence supporting both hypothisis. It would be more respectable to simply say you do not believe the theory, or you disagree with it, not that it is a myth.
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:39 pm

americorps wrote:That is a theory, nothing more, nothing less. As is what I believe. However, you have no right to dismiss any theory that is contrary to your opinion as myth as there is clear evidence supporting both hypothisis. It would be more respectable to simply say you do not believe the theory, or you disagree with it, not that it is a myth.


OK ..I disagree with your hypothisis on the grounds given above, and I firmly believe that the evidence on which I form my opinion is more valid than the reasons for which you hold your opinion.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby JoshuS » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:02 pm

Comet wrote:Just more of the imaginery "global-warming" alarmist propoganda. Anyway we can just do what our ancestors did for tens of thousands of years....move somewhere else...migrate to Iquitos or Tarapoto. :lol:


This has been debated ad nauseam here. I agree that global climate has, is and will always change...it is clear that global warming (now climate change) is above all a political movement backing an ambitious corporate financial agenda with Cap & Trade at the core of it, where corporations can trade permits to pollute for profit. How crazy is that! Literally they took this irrational free market idea of the "invisible hand" and said ok, we're going to use the market system to decide how "global warming" is going to be resolved, by letting people trade permits to pollute! It is outrageously unscientific, insane and above all completely unsustainable.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Alpineprince » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:52 pm

JoshuS wrote:
Comet wrote:Just more of the imaginery "global-warming" alarmist propoganda. Anyway we can just do what our ancestors did for tens of thousands of years....move somewhere else...migrate to Iquitos or Tarapoto. :lol:


This has been debated ad nauseam here. I agree that global climate has, is and will always change...it is clear that global warming (now climate change) is above all a political movement backing an ambitious corporate financial agenda with Cap & Trade at the core of it, where corporations can trade permits to pollute for profit. How crazy is that! Literally they took this irrational free market idea of the "invisible hand" and said ok, we're going to use the market system to decide how "global warming" is going to be resolved, by letting people trade permits to pollute! It is outrageously unscientific, insane and above all completely unsustainable.

You forgot to mention "Highly Profitable" !
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby tomsax » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:05 pm

Oh no, am I really going to be sucked into this again? I may have to ration myself to one post a week, if not for my sanity, then for others who are probably getting sick of me posting on this.

Comet wrote:You are missing my point...I am not denying climate change..I am just saying it is normal ...and how can we even imagine changing the climate of the entire world....think about it..it would be easier to alter the orbit of our planet.


Comet, all I can point out is that a lot of people have thought and studied this in great depth, and have come to the conclusion that it is possible and that it is happening.

Comet wrote:The temperature and climate of the world is driven by the temperature of the oceans, the sea temp. is driven by the average amount of cloud cover, cloud cover is determined by sun-spot activity....do you see? To change the climate we would have to control all or even one of those fundamentals. Climate change happened equally; before humankind, before the industrial revolution, before now!


This would be a great argument if sun spot activity could be blamed for current global warming but unfortunately it just doesn’t correlate. You’ll have to find another natural cause. I’m sure you can find another one on the internet quite easily!
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby tomsax » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:11 pm

JoshuS wrote:This has been debated ad nauseam here. I agree that global climate has, is and will always change...it is clear that global warming (now climate change) is above all a political movement backing an ambitious corporate financial agenda with Cap & Trade at the core of it, where corporations can trade permits to pollute for profit. How crazy is that! Literally they took this irrational free market idea of the "invisible hand" and said ok, we're going to use the market system to decide how "global warming" is going to be resolved, by letting people trade permits to pollute! It is outrageously unscientific, insane and above all completely unsustainable.


No climate change is about atoms, molecules, radiation and laws of physics who I’m afraid have no political allegiance and wouldn’t know an evil free market if it hit them in the face. Basically they deny all knowledge of the conspiracy being waged in their name though I suppose for that reason you could put them down as political stooges.

If you really don’t believe CO2 causes global warming it’s a bit difficult to understand why you think its a pollutant. It is otherwise a colourless odourless very benign gas! But I'm sure you have a good explanation.
Tom
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:21 pm

tomsax wrote:Oh no, am I really going to be sucked into this again? I may have to ration myself to one post a week, if not for my sanity, then for others who are probably getting sick of me posting on this.

Comet wrote:You are missing my point...I am not denying climate change..I am just saying it is normal ...and how can we even imagine changing the climate of the entire world....think about it..it would be easier to alter the orbit of our planet.


Comet, all I can point out is that a lot of people have thought and studied this in great depth, and have come to the conclusion that it is possible and that it is happening.

Hmmm you are missing the point here Tom....Yes climate change is happening...if you read my posts again you will see that I didn{t disagree with that...my point is that is both natural and unavoidable. Climate change and the lie of global warming are not the same thing....at the moment we are around 10,000 years since the last glacial period and about 30,000 years from the next one...so it doesn´t take Einstein to work out that logically the periods between ice-ages will be warmer and get more warm towards the halfway point , which we are approaching.

Comet wrote:The temperature and climate of the world is driven by the temperature of the oceans, the sea temp. is driven by the average amount of cloud cover, cloud cover is determined by sun-spot activity....do you see? To change the climate we would have to control all or even one of those fundamentals. Climate change happened equally; before humankind, before the industrial revolution, before now!


This would be a great argument if sun spot activity could be blamed for current global warming but unfortunately it just doesn’t correlate. You’ll have to find another natural cause. I’m sure you can find another one on the internet quite easily!


Actually if YOU can manage to learn a little you will see that they do correlate.... and if there is something wrong with learning and researching on the internet I fail to see what it is..... maybe if you studied a bit more there would be no need for your sarcasm....not a very friendly way to enter into the debate
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:28 pm

tomsax wrote:
JoshuS wrote:This has been debated ad nauseam here. I agree that global climate has, is and will always change...it is clear that global warming (now climate change) is above all a political movement backing an ambitious corporate financial agenda with Cap & Trade at the core of it, where corporations can trade permits to pollute for profit. How crazy is that! Literally they took this irrational free market idea of the "invisible hand" and said ok, we're going to use the market system to decide how "global warming" is going to be resolved, by letting people trade permits to pollute! It is outrageously unscientific, insane and above all completely unsustainable.


No climate change is about atoms, molecules, radiation and laws of physics who I’m afraid have no political allegiance and wouldn’t know an evil free market if it hit them in the face. Basically they deny all knowledge of the conspiracy being waged in their name though I suppose for that reason you could put them down as political stooges.

If you really don’t believe CO2 causes global warming it’s a bit difficult to understand why you think its a pollutant. It is otherwise a colourless odourless very benign gas! But I'm sure you have a good explanation.

WRONG WRONG WRONG....it is a scientific and irrefutable fact that Co2 is a minor so-called "greenhouse "gas, water is by far the most significant ....and it is an absolute fact that Co2 levels FOLLOW temperature changes by around 800 years...they do not and cannot instigate them....I defy you to produce one single piece of evidence to contradict this.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby alan » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:02 pm

Interesting article just published:
Peru's melting glaciers may teach disastrous lesson
By Heather Somerville

Special to The Washington Post

HUARAZ, Peru — Glacier melt hasn't caused a national crisis in Peru — yet. But high in the Andes, rising temperatures and changes in water supply during the past 40 years have decimated crops, killed fish stocks and forced villages to question how they will survive for another generation

Read all:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... ers23.html


Btw, and this is not mentioned in the article I have just posted, in his book "Peru por Porvenir", Kuczynski lays part of the blame on the disappearing glaciers to reduction in the Brazilian rain forest in order to grow soybean, which is an input for meat production.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby JoshuS » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:45 pm

tomsax wrote:No climate change is about atoms, molecules, radiation and laws of physics who I’m afraid have no political allegiance and wouldn’t know an evil free market if it hit them in the face. Basically they deny all knowledge of the conspiracy being waged in their name though I suppose for that reason you could put them down as political stooges.


There's no such a thing as neutral official science, almost always money buys science through grants, funds and the salaries of those same scientists, to fit political and financial agendas. Especially the kind of science where there's big money to be made. Take the cancer industry for example, it is a multimillion dollar industry, very big business, to find a cancer cure would mean the collapse of the whole money rolling machine. It's not going to happen in this paradigm. Diseases support medicine, it supports doctors, hospitals, etc, and if you really were able to eliminate most diseases, you would eliminate professions as well. You have to create problems to create profit, another example is crime, it does create business, we have roughly 2 million people incarcerated in the US, many are in prisons run by private corporations who trade their stock on Wall Street based on how many people are in jail. These are just few examples which goes to show how political and financial motives inhibits the possibility of a true and unbiased solutions to most of our problems. To see things in a vacuum is a very dangerous proposition and I'll leave it at that.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby glober » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:53 pm

I do not even know if I am suppose/allowed to point something out here, is this related to topic?

Well, to the one that denies facts like Climate Change, well, I dont really know what to say, I do
know that it is pointless to "argue" with you as you clearly decided that it is "not true" just as
people denying Human History, Evolution, the Holocaust and so on, but, as I did see americorps
tries to explain it to you, so I thought I would give him some help, perhaps you listen to more
then one.

Global "Warming" is a misnomer as it may, and clearly have on you, confuse people that do not
understand the issue, which you have shown you do not. Now, you mentioned Europe so I could
take that as an example, "No" is the answer, the current COLD climate in Europe is just what
we should see, JUST as the COLD climate in North America we are seeing.

If you have any interest in learning, I give the simplest and easiest explanation to it, if you have
any interest in understanding, Here you Go: The Climate has risen (+ X amount Degrees) slightly
which has caused the ice in the arctic to melt, this ice has gone down to the Gulf stream and made
it COOL which has thus caused the COLD WEATHER you are now seeing in both Europe and North America.



That is as SIMPLE as I could explain it considering you are confused with the term "Global Warming".


Regards.
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:32 pm

glober wrote:I do not even know if I am suppose/allowed to point something out here, is this related to topic?

Well, to the one that denies facts like Climate Change, well, I dont really know what to say, I do
know that it is pointless to "argue" with you as you clearly decided that it is "not true" just as
people denying Human History, Evolution, the Holocaust and so on, but, as I did see americorps
tries to explain it to you, so I thought I would give him some help, perhaps you listen to more
then one.

Global "Warming" is a misnomer as it may, and clearly have on you, confuse people that do not
understand the issue, which you have shown you do not. Now, you mentioned Europe so I could
take that as an example, "No" is the answer, the current COLD climate in Europe is just what
we should see, JUST as the COLD climate in North America we are seeing.

If you have any interest in learning, I give the simplest and easiest explanation to it, if you have
any interest in understanding, Here you Go: The Climate has risen (+ X amount Degrees) slightly
which has caused the ice in the arctic to melt, this ice has gone down to the Gulf stream and made
it COOL which has thus caused the COLD WEATHER you are now seeing in both Europe and North America.



That is as SIMPLE as I could explain it considering you are confused with the term "Global Warming".


Regards.


I assume you do know how to read.....because clearily you have not read my posts...climate change is real, I do not dispute that...climate warming , as currently touted by those with a political or business agenda is absolute rubbish....lies and ill-informed panic-spreading garbage.....of course the world will get warmer, slowly , over thousands of years between ice-ages, then it will get colder- a lot colder.....then it will all happen over and over again...always has always will, and a fact...in the 90s the so-called scientists of the British weather centre predicted that because of "global-warming" europe will not have snow again for many years....this of course failed to pass....then they said "because of global warming europe will have colder winters...blah blah...move the goalposts..it would be a joke if it wasn´t for the serious consequences .
You are also incorrect about the gulfstream...it doesn´t get cooler if arctic run-off moves south..it just doesn´t flow as far north....similar effect but wrong reason ! Anyway the gulfstream always shuts down before another glacial period, and at the moment we are moving towards the mid-way point between glacial periods so obviously the world will get a little warmer....just as it always has and always will.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Kelly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:56 pm

I think the argument about global warming is a red herring in this thread. The point here is that the glaciers in Peru ARE melting no matter what the cause, so what should be done? Is there anything that can be done? What's going to happen when there's not enough water?
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:12 pm

Kelly wrote:I think the argument about global warming is a red herring in this thread. The point here is that the glaciers in Peru ARE melting no matter what the cause, so what should be done? Is there anything that can be done? What's going to happen when there's not enough water?


There is more than enough water on the other side of the Andies.....this would be a good time for the government to start looking at efficient ways to bring the water to this side and to start making decent reservoirs.....this is the whole point about human life....if we can´t change the world then we have to adapt as our ancestors did.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby americorps » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:39 pm

And there are incredible advances in desalinization plants.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby glober » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:49 pm

I assume you do know how to read.....because clearily you have not read my posts...climate change is real, I do not dispute that...climate warming , as currently touted by those with a political or business agenda is absolute rubbish....lies and ill-informed panic-spreading garbage.....of course the world will get warmer, slowly , over thousands of years between ice-ages, then it will get colder- a lot colder.....then it will all happen over and over again...always has always will, and a fact...in the 90s the so-called scientists of the British weather centre predicted that because of "global-warming" europe will not have snow again for many years....this of course failed to pass....then they said "because of global warming europe will have colder winters...blah blah...move the goalposts..it would be a joke if it wasn´t for the serious consequences .
You are also incorrect about the gulfstream...it doesn´t get cooler if arctic run-off moves south..it just doesn´t flow as far north....similar effect but wrong reason ! Anyway the gulfstream always shuts down before another glacial period, and at the moment we are moving towards the mid-way point between glacial periods so obviously the world will get a little warmer....just as it always has and always will.



Eh.... Yeah, you'r right Comet, its just a big conspiracy and evil scientist getting paid of. Damn bastards, I swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, but perhaps you could make sure the Scientific Community could get access to it, peer review and all, it would save millions, if not billions, of lives if you made sure people found out the Facts you got which the scientific Community completely missed. Why are you here telling us regular folks instead of the people educated in the dozens of fields this is related too?
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby alan » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:40 am

Some cooler tempers please, to offset a warming planet.

Sarcasm and ill-disguised insults have no place on this board as they end up harming the overall environment for thoughtful communication. Think twice, write once.

Thanks,
Alan
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby tomsax » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:24 pm

Kelly wrote:I think the argument about global warming is a red herring in this thread. The point here is that the glaciers in Peru ARE melting no matter what the cause, so what should be done? Is there anything that can be done? What's going to happen when there's not enough water?


On one hand it was a diversion but on the other it does have some relevance which actually strikes at the heart of why climate change/global warming is such a hot and controversial topic. If you really believe that global warming is mainly caused by greenhouse gas emissions, as I do, then you have the issue of who should pay for the economic damage that they have caused. CO2 emissions per capita are greater in developed countries as basically you need to buy fuel before you burn it and developed countries have more dosh. If they have caused more emissions per capita then there is an argument that they should pay more per capita for the damage it has caused. The damage cost is the cost of adjusting to the climate change caused. To put it another way, should it be the poor farmer in Huaraz who foots higher water bills to pay for dams made necessary by man made climate change or should it be people in the US, Europe, Japan, who have as yet not paid the full cost of those emissions.

The argument can also be extended to energy companies who have sold energy for decades but have also avoided paying the full price of CO2 emissions. To be blunt, they can be sued by anyone who has been affected by climate change if it is eventually accepted that it is partly man-made. I'm not saying I agree with that - I don't - but that is what will be argued. This is why they are happy to pay millions to climate change skeptic organisations (including the scientists and internet sites attached to them) and government and intergovernmental lobbying around the world. It's in their obvious interests.

I personally find it difficult to blame people in the US or in my own country. But on the other hand do I really expect a poor family in Peru to pay for someone elses damage? Someone will have to pay eventually.

On the subject of what is to be done? to me it is quite obvious. Massive dams. They can be built to collect precipitation on the western slopes of the Andes that was previously held for free by glaciers. Many of them will be needed and it will cost many tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars. (Even that will be cheaper than reallocating the whole of Lima to the jungle). However, they will probably not be built until Lima and the coast suffers severe water stress. Only then will there be the political will to respond as they should be doing already.
Tom
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:41 pm

glober wrote:
I assume you do know how to read.....because clearily you have not read my posts...climate change is real, I do not dispute that...climate warming , as currently touted by those with a political or business agenda is absolute rubbish....lies and ill-informed panic-spreading garbage.....of course the world will get warmer, slowly , over thousands of years between ice-ages, then it will get colder- a lot colder.....then it will all happen over and over again...always has always will, and a fact...in the 90s the so-called scientists of the British weather centre predicted that because of "global-warming" europe will not have snow again for many years....this of course failed to pass....then they said "because of global warming europe will have colder winters...blah blah...move the goalposts..it would be a joke if it wasn´t for the serious consequences .
You are also incorrect about the gulfstream...it doesn´t get cooler if arctic run-off moves south..it just doesn´t flow as far north....similar effect but wrong reason ! Anyway the gulfstream always shuts down before another glacial period, and at the moment we are moving towards the mid-way point between glacial periods so obviously the world will get a little warmer....just as it always has and always will.


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The "hockey stick", a poster boy of both the UN's IPCC and Canada's Environment Department, ignores historical recorded climatic swings, and has now also been proven to be flawed and statistically unreliable as well. It is a computer construct and a faulty one at that.



MYTH 3: Human produced carbon dioxide has increased over the last 100 years, adding to the Greenhouse effect, thus warming the earth.

FACT: Carbon dioxide levels have indeed changed for various reasons, human and otherwise, just as they have throughout geologic time. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has increased. The RATE of growth during this period has also increased from about 0.2% per year to the present rate of about 0.4% per year,which growth rate has now been constant for the past 25 years. However, there is no proof that CO2 is the main driver of global warming. As measured in ice cores dated over many thousands of years, CO2 levels move up and down AFTER the temperature has done so, and thus are the RESULT OF, NOT THE CAUSE of warming. Geological field work in recent sediments confirms this causal relationship. There is solid evidence that, as temperatures move up and down naturally and cyclically through solar radiation, orbital and galactic influences, the warming surface layers of the earth's oceans expel more CO2 as a result.



MYTH 4: CO2 is the most common greenhouse gas.

FACT: Greenhouse gases form about 3 % of the atmosphere by volume. They consist of varying amounts, (about 97%) of water vapour and clouds, with the remainder being gases like CO2, CH4, Ozone and N2O, of which carbon dioxide is the largest amount. Hence, CO2 constitutes about 0.037% of the atmosphere. While the minor gases are more effective as "greenhouse agents" than water vapour and clouds, the latter are overwhelming the effect by their sheer volume and – in the end – are thought to be responsible for 60% of the "Greenhouse effect".
Those attributing climate change to CO2 rarely mention this important fact.


MYTH 5: Computer models verify that CO2 increases will cause significant global warming.

FACT: Computer models can be made to "verify" anything by changing some of the 5 million input parameters or any of a multitude of negative and positive feedbacks in the program used.. They do not "prove" anything. Also, computer models predicting global warming are incapable of properly including the effects of the sun, cosmic rays and the clouds. The sun is a major cause of temperature variation on the earth surface as its received radiation changes all the time, This happens largely in cyclical fashion. The number and the lengths in time of sunspots can be correlated very closely with average temperatures on earth, e.g. the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. Varying intensity of solar heat radiation affects the surface temperature of the oceans and the currents. Warmer ocean water expels gases, some of which are CO2. Solar radiation interferes with the cosmic ray flux, thus influencing the amount ionized nuclei which control cloud cover.


MYTH 6: The UN proved that man–made CO2 causes global warming.
FACT: In a 1996 report by the UN on global warming, two statements were deleted from the final draft. Here they are:
1) “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”
2) “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”

To the present day there is still no scientific proof that man-made CO2 causes significant global warming.



MYTH 7: CO2 is a pollutant.

FACT: This is absolutely not true. Nitrogen forms 80% of our atmosphere. We could not live in 100% nitrogen either. Carbon dioxide is no more a pollutant than nitrogen is. CO2 is essential to life on earth. It is necessary for plant growth since increased CO2 intake as a result of increased atmospheric concentration causes many trees and other plants to grow more vigorously. Unfortunately, the Canadian Government has included CO2 with a number of truly toxic and noxious substances listed by the Environmental Protection Act, only as their means to politically control it.


MYTH 8: Global warming will cause more storms and other weather extremes.

FACT: There is no scientific or statistical evidence whatsoever that supports such claims on a global scale. Regional variations may occur. Growing insurance and infrastructure repair costs, particularly in coastal areas, are sometimes claimed to be the result of increasing frequency and severity of storms, whereas in reality they are a function of increasing population density, escalating development value, and ever more media reporting.



MYTH 9: Receding glaciers and the calving of ice shelves are proof of global warming.

FACT: Glaciers have been receding and growing cyclically for hundreds of years. Recent glacier melting is a consequence of coming out of the very cool period of the Little Ice Age. Ice shelves have been breaking off for centuries. Scientists know of at least 33 periods of glaciers growing and then retreating. It’s normal. Besides, glacier's health is dependent as much on precipitation as on temperature.


MYTH 10: The earth’s poles are warming; polar ice caps are breaking up and melting and the sea level rising.

FACT: The earth is variable. The western Arctic may be getting somewhat warmer, due to unrelated cyclic events in the Pacific Ocean, but the Eastern Arctic and Greenland are getting colder. The small Palmer Peninsula of Antarctica is getting warmer, while the main Antarctic continent is actually cooling. Ice thicknesses are increasing both on Greenland and in Antarctica.

Sea level monitoring in the Pacific (Tuvalu) and Indian Oceans (Maldives) has shown no sign of any sea level rise.

Source: Friends of Science website.

Copyright & copy; 2007, Peter C Glover. All rights reserved.
glober
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby glober » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:45 pm

Comet, Excellent, could you answer a question I am wondering about?

Why are the Ice melting (this is a Fact repeated several times to you) then?


This ice is causing huge Climate Changes such as the cooling in the northern Hemisphere
and Heating in other regions, so it is clearly causing problems. I just want you to tell us
why the ice is melting in such a huge degree/amount, would you mind explain this to us?
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby jimbartle » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:00 pm

I have spent thirty years in and around the Cordillera Blanca. The glaciers have receded to an astounding degree; you can see it from year to year, though sometimes it's covered up by snowfall. There are glaciers which have receded 500 meters or more, and smaller ones which have disappeared. There are lakes a kilometer long today which did not even exist thirty years ago.

It's a serious problem, as the reserve of water is disappearing. What has worried me is that the only solution ever proposed or tried is to build dams on the lakes high in the Cordillera Blanca, in Huascarán National Park. The Park Service is not permitted any serious role in decision-making or supervision (and the HNP staff administration doesn't seem to care much), so the construction causes a lot more environmental damage than is necessary. For example, in the beautiful Quebrada Rajucolta, just south of Huaraz, the contractors excavated three quarries inside the park to build the road to the lake rather than get the earth and rock from outside.

On the positive side, the engineers of the Oficina de Hidrología ( or maybe it's still called the Oficina de Glaciología) have monitored the Cordillera Blanca since after the 1970 earthquake. They built many small safety dams over the years to lower the water level (avoiding possible alluvions) while causing little environmental damage.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby tomsax » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:26 pm

Comet,

You could have taken the adverts of the top when you did the copy and paste!

I think it would get a bit boring if we just went on a copy and paste war. You copying and pasting from climate change skeptic websites, me from sites that support the idea of man-made climate change.

If we understand the science why not put it in our own words. If we don't understand the science then how can we really judge whether it's correct. Also it's only by really putting things into our own words that we develop our own thinking and learn more. It's perhaps cruel to point it out but JoshuS has copied and pasted lots of climate change skepticism stuff on this board and then on this thread he says that CO2 is a pollutant. He doesn't seemed to have understood what he was copying and pasting.

Having said all this, I appreciate we both probably have little time. Here is a website that I could use in a copy and paste job if I felt it was useful:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

If I find time I will and answer some of these "myths about myths" (as I would call them) in my own words and also on the topics you asked me to provide "one piece of evidence " in a previous post. However I think those topics are covered in the above website.
Tom
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby JoshuS » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:59 pm

tomsax wrote:JoshuS has copied and pasted lots of climate change skepticism stuff on this board and then on this thread he says that CO2 is a pollutant. He doesn't seemed to have understood what he was copying and pasting.


tomsax wrote:If you really don’t believe CO2 causes global warming it’s a bit difficult to understand why you think its a pollutant. It is otherwise a colourless odourless very benign gas! But I'm sure you have a good explanation.


Correction, it was you who made the copy and paste referred comment, check my replies above. I haven't made any comments on it at all.
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:21 pm

glober wrote:Comet, Excellent, could you answer a question I am wondering about?

Why are the Ice melting (this is a Fact repeated several times to you) then?


This ice is causing huge Climate Changes such as the cooling in the northern Hemisphere
and Heating in other regions, so it is clearly causing problems. I just want you to tell us
why the ice is melting in such a huge degree/amount, would you mind explain this to us?


May I refer you to myth No. 9 in the above post.
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:24 pm

tomsax wrote:Comet,

You could have taken the adverts of the top when you did the copy and paste!

I think it would get a bit boring if we just went on a copy and paste war. You copying and pasting from climate change skeptic websites, me from sites that support the idea of man-made climate change.

If we understand the science why not put it in our own words. If we don't understand the science then how can we really judge whether it's correct. Also it's only by really putting things into our own words that we develop our own thinking and learn more. It's perhaps cruel to point it out but JoshuS has copied and pasted lots of climate change skepticism stuff on this board and then on this thread he says that CO2 is a pollutant. He doesn't seemed to have understood what he was copying and pasting.

Having said all this, I appreciate we both probably have little time. Here is a website that I could use in a copy and paste job if I felt it was useful:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

If I find time I will and answer some of these "myths about myths" (as I would call them) in my own words and also on the topics you asked me to provide "one piece of evidence " in a previous post. However I think those topics are covered in the above website.


... My final words on the subject are to you ....I have no intention of continuing a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby tomsax » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:02 am

That sounds a bit to my like a cop out.
Tom
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby tomsax » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:41 pm

I wouldn't put it that strongly. I myself used to believe the whole man-made climate change thing was probably hyped up. I think it's very difficult for many people to make up their minds with all these claims and counter claims. The main problem is that people have got far too entrenched in their views, on both sides probably. It used to be a topic just the scientists were interested in and the debate was pretty reasoned but now the it has got over politicised on both sides.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby glober » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:07 pm

tomsax wrote:I wouldn't put it that strongly. I myself used to believe the whole man-made climate change thing was probably hyped up. I think it's very difficult for many people to make up their minds with all these claims and counter claims. The main problem is that people have got far too entrenched in their views, on both sides probably. It used to be a topic just the scientists were interested in and the debate was pretty reasoned but now the it has got over politicised on both sides.


No, it would be very easy, it just demands that you Read the Studies, which are quite clear, you know, not the Opinions, but the peer-reviewed studies Climate Change is based on (which is the name of it, not "Global Warming").


But as you may know, that demands Time and Understanding (intellect), and why bother with such things when you can just quote some site and end it there instead of actually read relevant studies?
Comet

Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby Comet » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:59 pm

tomsax wrote:That sounds a bit to my like a cop out.


Really? It actually the realisation that nothing is going to open your mind...be it my own opinion or that of scientists..which incidentally(sorry if the words are a bit big) was my reason in copying that article...so you perhaps realise that it was more than just an unqualified opinion.
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Re: water issues in Peru?

Postby alan » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:26 pm

I have deleted a couple recent posts after having made a previous warning earlier on in this same thread. Please remember our guidelines, and as Peruvians so rightly point out "el que se pica, pierde"



Rules of the Road


This is a forum where you can share news about Peru and contribute your commentary about the political and economic trends that affect the country. This forum is moderated in order to foster an environment that encourages participants to reflect on new ideas and points of view.

The moderation standard for this section is based on the premise of mutual respect. Senseless confrontation, preaching, and personal attacks are not allowed and participants commit to informing themselves before writing. In order to post to this forum, you must understand these rules and support them.

Important: When posting short articles from other sources, copy the entire article but quote the source and provide a link to the original. If you want to reference long articles, publish only the link, don`t recopy all the text.

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