Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:15 pm

I agree this poses a big problem, I disagree with your editorial suggestion that it means Peru can not handle gay marriage.

Argentina has full gay marriage, Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Ecuador, Brazil, Mexico and Costa Rica all have some level of gay marriage or domestic partnership and they are all considered Catholic countries and Uruguay and Ecuador are from from Liberal countries.

In all those countries, as well as the USA, Gay harassment can and does still occur, even by authorities.

I remember they tried to open a gay bar in the small college town of Emporia Kansas and the mayor said he was going to have the police write down license plates and publish them in the paper.

I look at the gay rights history around the world. It is often bullcrap just like that that is the pivotal moment that brings change. it makes people talk about the issue, confront it and even if initial reactions are hostile, with sunlight comes growth.

The new Alcalda will have to now take a stand. he has a lot of gay dollars in Miraflores and enough of the people who spend those dollars will ask him what the hell is going on.

This horrible abuse, this unsupportable ignorance demonstrated by the police...can be turned into an opportunity.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby JoshuS » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:53 pm

tupacperu wrote:Think Peru is ready for Gay Marriage? Think again.

Translated:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8

Spanish:
http://elcomercio.pe/lima/713170/notici ... entro-lima


Hmmm, looking at the video it looks more like it was started by the gays,the cops are reacting to that aggression as they're seem to be backing off, the woman rolling down the stairs fell by her own doing. It looks more like a provocation and overreaction by that gay group.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:57 pm

pishposh and poppycock.

The police attacked without provocation at the kiss-in and the police chose to follow people around Miraflores and harass them as they tried to get coffee and sit and talk.

I find it absurd to blame the victims. You simply have chosen to ignore the entirety of the story and pick and choose what information you want to.

Disappointing way to make a decision about such a heinous event.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Remigius » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:08 pm

I guess the police simply doesn't know what to do in these kinds of situations and as a result act in a silly way.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tupacperu » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:49 am

JoshuS wrote:
tupacperu wrote:Think Peru is ready for Gay Marriage? Think again.

Translated:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... =&ie=UTF-8

Spanish:
http://elcomercio.pe/lima/713170/notici ... entro-lima


Hmmm, looking at the video it looks more like it was started by the gays,the cops are reacting to that aggression as they're seem to be backing off, the woman rolling down the stairs fell by her own doing. It looks more like a provocation and overreaction by that gay group.


Looks like the gays were attacking each other with kisses and the police tried to pull them apart. (ie... Get a room hehehe )
When visiting the parks at night you will find many couples publicly kissing why cannot gays do that also?

Americorp:
Recently a poll in Peru stated that 75% of Peruvians do not accept gay marriage.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:36 am

75% of peruvians do not have to accept gay marriages, they can marry someone of the opposite sex. However, all presidential candidates have come out in support of some level for domestic partnership or gay marriage, even the far right... and recent Peruvian supreme court rulings have reinforced that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal. I have little doubt it will be the courts enforcing law that brings this about over popular opinion.

It is a matter of civil rights and public majority can not over-ride them...just like if there were a vote today that would say 51% of the people do not approve of a black person marrying someone of a different race would not make it illegal.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Remigius » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:07 pm

I've always been surprised about the attitude of Peruvians when it comes to gay marriage (in fact, they're talking about union, not marriage). For Peruvians the religious wedding is the most important ceremony and civil wedding is just a formality, aka nuisance, they complete in 10 minutes before or after the religious wedding. It's not the formal union between people of the same sex that ticks them off, it's that they just don't want them to have the same civil rights as hetero couples.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Comet » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:00 pm

americorps wrote:pishposh and poppycock.

The police attacked without provocation at the kiss-in and the police chose to follow people around Miraflores and harass them as they tried to get coffee and sit and talk.

I find it absurd to blame the victims. You simply have chosen to ignore the entirety of the story and pick and choose what information you want to.

Disappointing way to make a decision about such a heinous event.


OK first I would like to point out that I do not support discrimination against gays...or any minorites for that matter, but I would like to make a few points having watched the video 2x and having lived here long enough to have a good idea about the culture.
1st...there was no "attack" by anyone on anyone...the police simply moved them along with a lot more patience than you would see in many countries including the USA.
2nd.. If you live in a culture where 75% of the people are offended by homosexuals then it is reasonable to assume that the gays knew they were being provocative.
3rd...If the witnesses were indeed offended then the police had a right to disrupt a demonstration-regardless of the cause.
4th.."heinous"..a bit of an overstatement....heinous is rape, murder, child abuse etc.
5th... I am heterosexual, I can´t understand why men want to do stuff with each other but they do and they are born that way, so it is completely natural for them, however...I would find it annoying seeing any couple( gay or hetero) kissing and groping in an in-appropriate place- as would most people-..there are ways to improve the rights of minorities....rubbing peoples noses in it isn´t one of them.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:05 pm

Yes, I realize no one is not ever homophobic, but still hold different standards for gays as they do for straights.

I have heard that same line for 45 years.

Do not get me wrong, I have many dear gay friends, but you have no business asking for rights in this climate because it offends the bigots.

I do not support discrimination, but why do you have to be so obvious....to me is tatamount to asking a black man if he can please try to pass for white so there will be less uncomfort from the racists.

The woman deserved to be raped or should have not made those decisions, so my sympathy is less.....should never be uttered among civilized people, yet you are saying the same thing about the gays being attacked holding a peaceful and lawful demonstration.. You are dead wrong. They should have been protected by the police, even in Peru.

Further, this is the third year of the same event and it has never had trouble before.

your opinion that the police had the right to disrupt a peaceful and lawful assembly of the people because those around them did not agree with them flies in the face of every democracy alive today. They were not disrupting traffic, business nor flow of people. They were not confronting or posing a danger.

but seriously, I am so freaking sick and tired of people telling us how to behave to be accepted better by them and I want to barf.

That means bigots have special rights to relegate those they are bigoted again to second class citizens. If you are uncomfortable with me being Jewish, I should remove my star of david..if you are uncomfortable with me being black..what then? If the people around were uncomfortable with people being from the Selva or the Sierra, how should they change so those around them will better accept them.

Bigotry is NOT a social norm, it is a mental illness and I will always treat it as such.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Comet » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:48 pm

americorps wrote:Yes, I realize no one is not ever homophobic, but still hold different standards for gays as they do for straights.

I have heard that same line for 45 years.

Do not get me wrong, I have many dear gay friends, but you have no business asking for rights in this climate because it offends the bigots.

I do not support discrimination, but why do you have to be so obvious....to me is tatamount to asking a black man if he can please try to pass for white so there will be less uncomfort from the racists.

The woman deserved to be raped or should have not made those decisions, so my sympathy is less.....should never be uttered among civilized people, yet you are saying the same thing about the gays being attacked holding a peaceful and lawful demonstration.. You are dead wrong. They should have been protected by the police, even in Peru.

Further, this is the third year of the same event and it has never had trouble before.

your opinion that the police had the right to disrupt a peaceful and lawful assembly of the people because those around them did not agree with them flies in the face of every democracy alive today. They were not disrupting traffic, business nor flow of people. They were not confronting or posing a danger.

but seriously, I am so freaking sick and tired of people telling us how to behave to be accepted better by them and I want to barf.

That means bigots have special rights to relegate those they are bigoted again to second class citizens. If you are uncomfortable with me being Jewish, I should remove my star of david..if you are uncomfortable with me being black..what then? If the people around were uncomfortable with people being from the Selva or the Sierra, how should they change so those around them will better accept them.

Bigotry is NOT a social norm, it is a mental illness and I will always treat it as such.


Once again..NO-ONE was attacked..at least not in the video that I saw,
and if most people don´t want to see people groping and kissing in public then they have a right to feel like that.
I agree with you, mostly, about your fight for rights....but this does not excuse gross exageration of a minor (albiet unfair ) confrontation....I have seen on this board how you leap to the defence of people under attack(verbally) on expat...but right now you are coming across as "gays are always right even when they´re wrong"
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:14 pm

You are wrong.

People were not only attacked, but several of the member of MHOL were followed into surrounding cafes and stores afterwards and harassed and physically accosted some more.

The video is limited, edited and presented by the police.

The police rushed the people and started pushing without provecation nor warning, some people were hit, not just pushed.

And in this gays, the gays did nothing wrong.

Yes, bigots are allowed to be bigots, but they are NOT allowed to take away others civil rights.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Kelly » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:33 pm

and if most people don´t want to see people groping and kissing in public then they have a right to feel like that.


So maybe the police should go down to Parque Kennedy and start pusshing around all the people that are there making out in the evenings.

Anyone has any right to their feelings. They don't have the right to impose it on others.

If the witnesses were indeed offended then the police had a right to disrupt a demonstration-regardless of the cause.


This is completely wrong. The police only have the right to uphold the law, and if the demonstration isn't breaking a law, they have no right to disrupt it. Last I checked, offending bystanders isn't a law. In fact, the police are obligated to protect the demonstrators from being attacked, not the opposite.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Comet » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:55 pm

americorps wrote:You are wrong.

People were not only attacked, but several of the member of MHOL were followed into surrounding cafes and stores afterwards and harassed and physically accosted some more.

The video is limited, edited and presented by the police.

The police rushed the people and started pushing without provecation nor warning, some people were hit, not just pushed.

And in this gays, the gays did nothing wrong.

Yes, bigots are allowed to be bigots, but they are NOT allowed to take away others civil rights.


OK I appear to stand corrected...I formed my opinion on the evidence of the video...if that was not the full story, then I was mistaken.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:14 pm

The video the police showed was the aftermath..the reaction of the crowd after they were accosted without provocation from the police.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Serionlv » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:03 pm

Exactly who starts what in these affairs is always hard to tell. Emotions run high on both sides. Living in Lima there are a few things that strike me as important from the event and the discussion.

Lima is a city of 8 or 9 million people. This is the 3rd time the group has held the event and it was minuscule. Maybe 20 activists. How many thousands of homosexual and bisexual men and women live here? I live in Miraflores and have more gay friends and neighbors here than I had living in Las Vegas. Where is everyone? The climate of fear for loss of job or social status due to being labeled as gay or lesbian strikes fear in Peruvians from ALL social statuses, rich and poor alike. This tells you there is real discrimination here.

The handful of activists at MOHL are young, passionate and determined. I applaud their courage. They were trying to get people’s attention, even if by offending them. This is their whole purpose. Sometimes you just have to refuse to sit in the back of the bus. Sometimes the general public needs to be disturbed in order to start the process of learning how their ignorance of an issue is causing them to react wrongly. This allows society to make progress.

The police should have, and could have, diffused the situation rather than make it worse. I bet they wish they had handled it different in hindsight. However, it was their actions that helped bring the issue before the media. This allowed people to question if their motive and duty was to protect the citizenry from some perceived threat, or protect the activists from the citizenry, or just to keep the peace and diffuse tensions? The fallout rippled all the way to a statement from the President of the Republic supporting human rights in Peru. So maybe we should thank the officers involved and those in their charge.

I know the activists will continue their struggle for full equality under the law. I hope more will support them (and not just the gay community). I also hope the law enforcement agencies will remain neutral and maintain order and security in an unbiased manner. They have a very difficult but important job to do in a free society. And I especially hope people will learn that in a truly free and equal society we may need to expand our understanding of human rights and the reasons why change may be required.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby El Tunche » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:51 pm

I heard that this happened coz the Historic Center of Lima is "zona rigida" for any kind of manifestation
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:05 pm

Perhaps you are thinking of Susan Villaran statement that certain areas of Lima are off limits, but no one said that applied to this protest.

http://www.peruviantimes.com/interior-m ... ns/1510914

Interior Minister to meet with MHOL members following police attacks on gays, lesbians

February 15, 2011 by Andean Air Mail & PERUVIAN TIMES · Leave a Comment

Interior Minister Miguel Hidalgo will meet Wednesday with representatives from the Homosexual Movement in Lima (MHOL), following police attacks on gay and lesbians activits last Saturday.

The meeting is intended to inform MHOL of the actions the ministry is taking following charges levied at Peru’s National Police of excessive force, state news agency Andina reported.

“The Interior [Ministry] and National Police are clear and firm in their respect for laws and legislation that regulate their actions, in the framework of respecting the human rights of all people, with no distinction of their creed, social condition or sexual orientation,” Hidalgo said.

A member of MHOL video-taped Peruvian police abuse against a group of 15 gay and lesbian couples kissing in front of Lima’s Cathedral on Saturday during an event called “Kisses against Homophobia.”

“A group of police came up to them and without saying a word began to push the participants in the event to remove them from there and they continued hitting them with sticks and shields in the Plaza de Armas and its surroundings, including chasing them into stores, cafes and an art gallery,” an MHOL member reported to daily La Republica.

The MHOL members were heard protesting in the video saying, “I’m not a criminal, I’m just homosexual.”

Lima’s mayor, Susana Villarán, criticized the police aggression and announced that a bylaw will be issued against discrimination of sexual orientation. City security personnel will also receive training in civil and human rights.

However, Villarán also reminded the public that the city’s main square is off limits to all protests or activist events. “Men, women, people with non-heterosexual orientation can express their affection but always with respect to public opinion and to restricted spaces such as the Plaza de Armas, the Cathedral and the Government Palace.”
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby El Tunche » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:56 pm

perhaps the police officers thought that it applied , coz they were doing it just outside the cathedral, in the plaza de armas .

And they were activists so...

I think that the MHOL should organize their events outside offlimits zones to avoid this kind of situations .
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:00 pm

the question remains... and one you sort of just gloss right by..

why did the police not ask the group to leave?...give no warnings?

There have been other protests at the same spot by other groups that were not molested.

I think one might be reaching for an excuse for what happened...but as I keep stating...

If it is a double standard for gays than for other groups, it is discrimination.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby El Tunche » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:12 pm

protests in the historic center are strictly forbidden , i would appreciate if you can give som link about protesters in the plaza de armas not being molested. Coz before Susana Villaran, Castañeda was even more radical on this "off limits" thing.

And about giving them a warnig, well, i cant know if they did it or not, coz the police said "yes" and the MHOL said"No" , so in this case i would need the version of a neutral party .
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:19 pm

I am not going to debate the point..it is a fact..the police did NOT give any warning and attacked the group. There is NO excuse and even the Alcadesa said it was police abuse.

If you want to find a reason why it was justified, just justify it...it, however is NOT justifiable.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby El Tunche » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:43 pm

Im just stating a fact, they were doing activism in an off limits zone, however, is true taht the police were too violent in their reaction.

There is another fact too tha we should consider, there is no way taht an organization like MHOL didnt know that the plaza de armas was off limits for what they were doing, so i think that they were looking fo this kind of reaction from the police, i dont know if my guess is accurate, but thats my opinion .
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:53 am

Did you forget that this is the third year of the same event without previous incident?
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby El Tunche » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:18 am

Third time on the same location ? or just third time of the event ?
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tomsax » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:29 pm

It is interesting that in many parts of the world this sort of thing would be reported more as a cultural event, such as the gay pride carnivals in so many big cities of the world. Less activism confrontation and more pink ballons and fun. I'm not sure if this is just because of the police, authorities and media in Peru or if it is also an issue of tactics. Have they asked if they can have a gay pride parade Americorps? I suppose the answer is yes and that it would not granted but I just wondered. Just kissing in public in front of cathedral, of all places, is not going to get them much public sympathy but I wouldn't mind attending a gay parade if there was more going on than that.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:31 pm

This was not a gay pride parade. They have one of those as well. This was a comment, during valentines weekend, about freedom.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tomsax » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:19 pm

I'm not that sure a non-gay kiss-in outside the cathedral wouldn't be broken up on the third year. I'm just saying this isn't the best thing to do if you want to focus on gay rights particularly rather than the general rights to kiss in public outside a sacred building. Of course this doesn't justify the police mistreatment which of course was probably anti gay motivated but its difficult to prove that in this case.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:29 pm

I realize some people think the quest for civil rights should avoid making people uncomfortable. I am not of that opinion.

Throughout history, for civil rights to advance, there has ALWAYS been 2 fronts. The men and women who are quiet and use suits to try to work within the establishment to make change, and the radicals who are willing to defy the establishment for revolution (non violent).

I believe with all my heart, both approaches are needed.

There were those who told the folks who sat at the whites only counter at Woolworth that they would upset too many people and give a bad image to the black rights movement...to me, I see NO difference here.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Alpineprince » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:41 pm

They should probably move it to Miraflores where protests,parades,10k's,nude bicycle events and even the walking dead (Zombie) death march is not only tolerated but its great fun for the tourists! I remember when they used to have those girls down in Larco Mar giving everybody a "hug"!
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby iron butterfly » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:47 pm

How does, a group human beings, going to a public establishment (Woolworths) with the sole purpose of doing what the other human beings have come to do (eat), compare to a group of human beings going to the steps of a private institution (The Catholic Church) and doing (kissing) what the other human beings have not come to do (kissing)?
Now, if a certain group were in a public park kissing and ran off, while others were kissing and not ran off, then I might see some sort of valid comparison to the Woolworth example.
To try and compare the homo sexual experience to the black experience is insulting. A white homosexual, even in the deepest darkest oldest south, could always drink from the whites only drinking fountain, be a cop, be a judge, sit in the front of the bus, eat at Woolworths, live and work where he wanted to, go to a good college, stay in a nice hotel, go to plays, play for the Dodgers, run for office and vote and even join the Klan. If you are honest, there is and was a big difference.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:52 pm

I realize you do not agree with me. For you, since we can pass easier than blacks could, we should just be quiet and shut up.

I understand clearly your point of view.

I disagree with it vehemently.

I notice that you do not mention the numbers of LGBT people murdered, injured, tourtured, lost their jobs, their homes, their children every year for nothing other than the fact that they were LGBT..but that would not be conducive to your point, now..would it.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tomsax » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:35 pm

americorps wrote:I realize some people think the quest for civil rights should avoid making people uncomfortable. I am not of that opinion.

Throughout history, for civil rights to advance, there has ALWAYS been 2 fronts. The men and women who are quiet and use suits to try to work within the establishment to make change, and the radicals who are willing to defy the establishment for revolution (non violent).

I believe with all my heart, both approaches are needed.

There were those who told the folks who sat at the whites only counter at Woolworth that they would upset too many people and give a bad image to the black rights movement...to me, I see NO difference here.


I think you're missing my point a bit there. I have no problem with people being offended and being made to feel uncomfortable if its done for obviously the right reasons.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Remigius » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:36 pm

Alpineprince wrote:They should probably move it to Miraflores where protests,parades,10k's,nude bicycle events and even the walking dead (Zombie) death march is not only tolerated but its great fun for the tourists! I remember when they used to have those girls down in Larco Mar giving everybody a "hug"!


Doing it in the front yard of the enemy obviously creates more publicity.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:37 pm

See, this is where my most radical comes out and knowing you and respecting you greatly, I hope you realize this is more of a general comment and not a direct comment..but...

History is full of well meaning middle class white liberals telling the blacks, gays, hispanics how best to manage their movements....

I remember when the city of Lawrence Kansas created a task force and the mayor called me into his office. I presumed to ask me to be on the task force, but no...it was to tell me that he supported our goal and wanted an non discrimination law for the city, but he felt at this time it would be best not to have any gay or lesbian members on the task force so it would be more paletable to certain sectors of the city.

I read a study once, which I agree with, that oppression creates a culture of sorts. You and iron and the others do not have to wonder if you are going to loose your job, be asked to leave your home by your landlord, wonder if your family is going to kick you out, wonder if someone is going to beat you to death, loose your children, be deported from your partner, worry about what would happen to your assets and rights if your partner gets sick or dies on a daily basis for simply being who you are.

You understand that though, I know and you are very sympathetic and we need allies like you and while advice is and should be received...the drive must come from us..mistakes and all are our to make.

I do appreciate that you, however, do not try to define levels of who is worthy as did iron. That blacks are more deserving of sympathy because they can not pass as white while we gays can pass as straight more easily, for example. That is a dangerous and unhealthy path in my opinion.

The same argument is easy enough for Jewish people, Muslim, Catholic who suffer discrimination...they can pretend not to be who they are and therefore avoid it.

At a certain point, that begins to eat at one´s soul, so one rebels.

I did not participate and probably would not with MHOL for a number of reasons, but I certainly understand them and even if I do not agree with their choices, support that it is their choices to make.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby iron butterfly » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:51 pm

I did not mention the atrocities brought against LGBTs because honestly I did not know they were as wide spread as you seem to want it to sound. Suffice to say that even one such occurrence is too many.
Being from the US and that is from which I speak. In the US it is illegal to kill or injure or torture any human and most animals. All such crimes are duly reported investigated and prosecuted. (I kinda have a feeling that is how it is in Peru also).
As a side note, when a LGBT is accosted in the USA it is no longer a simple crime against society it becomes elevated and with special enhancements attached to the punishment of the crime giving certain crimes such as crimes against LGBTs a special status above and beyond a "regular" crime.
In the US we are still given some latitude who we hire and fire, right or wrong.
As to your other 2 points I am totally in the dark so I could not have brought them up:
LGBT have lost their homes? I am sure there are LGBT that have lost their homes but because they were LGBT?
LGBT have lost their children? Again I am totally in the dark. I am sure there are LGBTs that have lost their children, but simply because they were LGBT?
I have made my response, here, based on a USA perspective because the Woolworth action was brought up. Please forgive me for continuing to wander off topic.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:19 pm

Iron,

I can go into a lengthy discussion as I can see your experience with the issue is limited. There is nothing wrong with that, I am only saying it is outside the circles you know.

Suffice it to say, you can easily obtain statistics in the USA on hate crimes, you can easily google stories of people who have lost their homes, jobs, their children simply for being gay IN THE USA. If you live in a state that does not have a discrimination law that mentions sexual orientation discrimination by name, it is NOT illegal to fire you for that reason. Some states still have and enforce laws on the books that list being gay as a sexual diviency and use that to remove children from gay households with no other mitigating factors. It does not happen as often as it used to, but it does happen still.

Now take that type of behavior and modify it ten times and you will start to get a feel of what Peru can be like.

Here are 2 very specific circumstances. A high school newspaper in Kansas recently published a student written editorial that actually claimed that it was not unreasonable to offer the death penalty for being gay.

Here in Peru, a Catholic Bishop a few weeks ago, in the loving compassionate spirit of God my Father, told all Peru that the proper word for gays was Maricon...tatamount to faggot in the USA.

When I first arrived here almost 5 years ago, a man here went to prison for disembowling and killing his son because he found out he was gay. His words on his way to prison is that he does not understand why he was going to jail for carrying out God´s will. Several commentors on the website agreed with his sentiments whole heartedly.

The very mayor I was mentioning before that thought it was better if no gays were part of the gay rights ordinance, told me..this is Lawrence Kansas, This is the 1980´s, do you really think discrimination happens here any more.

About 10 years later, when the law finally passed and he had learned more about the issue than he ever cared to...he asked me to come meet him at his barber shop and told me that he was ashamed for not asking me on the committee and ashamed for the statement suggesting discrimination does not occur anymore. he said he had no idea and now he does.

I like to pass those people to the junior leaguer gays who wear the nice suits and speak in calm voices to help educate them....at this stage in my life, I just do not have patience for starting from the beginning things that I think should be understood.

A few months ago here in Peru, the director of the National Police..the same one in charge of the police that attacked the group this weekend, promised and vowed to remove any and all gay police from the ranks or from the academies. 2 cadets sued to the Supreme Court and won and were reinstated, but the police cheif did not change his tune very much other than admitting he had little choice. Neither of those cadets are working for law enforcement at the moment despite graduating near the top of their class.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tomsax » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:31 pm

americorps wrote:History is full of well meaning middle class white liberals telling the blacks, gays, hispanics how best to manage their movements....



The world is also full of well meaning middle class white liberals NOT telling anyone how best to do anything in case they are accused of being a "well meaning middle class white liberal telling the blacks, gays...blah blah blah

I think it is a better mark of respect to give an honest opinion and leave others to take it or leave it. It is ideas that should be judged, not the people who they come from.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tomsax » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:34 pm

PS thanks for not lumping me in with iron!
Tom
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Serionlv » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:59 pm

Is there discrimination for Gays in the USA and Peru?

Well lets see, I am a middle aged, average, white guy who was married 19 years with 3 kids before I divorced and came out. None of the following happened to me when I was "hiding" behind a straight sham of a life. And let me tell you living that lie is really bad and hard.

I was expelled from my church and shunned by all my so called friends there.
I was almost fired from my job on trumped up charges. (My boss supported the constitutional change to make marriage between a man and a woman in Nevada.)
I was never promoted again.
Best friends drifted away in a matter of months.
My ex told my kids I had AIDS (a lie!) and not to touch anything at my place. I wondered why they were avoiding me.
My parents have avoided meeting my partner of ten years because its too "uncomfortable".
I live HERE because my partner can't get a visa to live and work in the USA (even if we marry).
If he dies I am at the mercy of his family if I want to sell my apartment since he owns 50% and I will not inherit.
My faithfully religious daughter refuses me to see my grandkids and the law in her state does not support grandparents rights.
I have been yelled at, spit at, and threatened when out as a couple (NOT KISSING)
I have had to defend myself with a tire iron when attacked by a kid with a bat in San Diego.
My partner is not on my insurance.
My partner gets none of my social security benefits (even if we marry)

I limit outward displays of affection (like touching a hand or a quick kiss) in many areas out of fear.

I have been told to my face on many occasions that my relationship is not as valid as a heterosexual one, that I have chosen to be gay, that I can change, that my love is really just a sexual attraction. (For some reason straight people think they know all about what it means to be gay, and that I have no clue. Well I KNOW what I know is true because I live it)

MANY gay and lesbian friends here in Peru know they will never be promoted and could be fired if known to be gay.
Men with kids fear if they leave their wives they will never see their kids.
I have seen 15 year-old's tossed into the streets by families (where they are likely to be preyed upon by perverts)
Neighbors have requested gay couples keep all blinds drawn so no one sees them living as a couple (it might ruin the kids! AND THEY WERE NOT BEING SEXUAL)
The list can go on...

Laws are good and all, but we all know there is still discrimination for racial minorities, women and others. Having the laws make you feel acknowledged and provide a recourse. But in actuality you do not feel better when something happens. You still feel hurt and lost. You ask yourself: Why do they hate me so? They don't even know me? Why can't I just live my life and pursue happiness my way, and they theirs?

I can't speak for other minorities. I can't compare, or measure, one minorities rights over another.
I can tell you many straight people are ignorant of what it is like to be gay.
And there is NOT yet equality under the law anywhere in the United States.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:07 pm

Well said, i wish I had your eloquence.


And Tomsax, might it also be considered at least condescending if not rude to pat us on the head, tell us you understand, but we are doing it all wrong.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tomsax » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:33 am

I haven't patted you on the head, I haven't said I understand and I am not saying you are doing it all wrong.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby iron butterfly » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:21 am

I kind of think I was the one being patted on the head, when Americorps wrote:
"Iron, I can go into a lengthy discussion as I can see your experience with the issue is limited. There is nothing wrong with that, I am only saying it is outside the circles you know".
Sort of like saying: "Go away kid ya bother me".
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby americorps » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:32 am

no, really. I worded that very carefully.

Not everyone has the same experiences, it is important that we all realize that.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Comet » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:38 am

Serionlv wrote:Is there discrimination for Gays in the USA and Peru?

Well lets see, I am a middle aged, average, white guy who was married 19 years with 3 kids before I divorced and came out. None of the following happened to me when I was "hiding" behind a straight sham of a life. And let me tell you living that lie is really bad and hard.

I was expelled from my church and shunned by all my so called friends there.
I was almost fired from my job on trumped up charges. (My boss supported the constitutional change to make marriage between a man and a woman in Nevada.)
I was never promoted again.
Best friends drifted away in a matter of months.
My ex told my kids I had AIDS (a lie!) and not to touch anything at my place. I wondered why they were avoiding me.
My parents have avoided meeting my partner of ten years because its too "uncomfortable".
I live HERE because my partner can't get a visa to live and work in the USA (even if we marry).
If he dies I am at the mercy of his family if I want to sell my apartment since he owns 50% and I will not inherit.
My faithfully religious daughter refuses me to see my grandkids and the law in her state does not support grandparents rights.
I have been yelled at, spit at, and threatened when out as a couple (NOT KISSING)
I have had to defend myself with a tire iron when attacked by a kid with a bat in San Diego.
My partner is not on my insurance.
My partner gets none of my social security benefits (even if we marry)

I limit outward displays of affection (like touching a hand or a quick kiss) in many areas out of fear.

I have been told to my face on many occasions that my relationship is not as valid as a heterosexual one, that I have chosen to be gay, that I can change, that my love is really just a sexual attraction. (For some reason straight people think they know all about what it means to be gay, and that I have no clue. Well I KNOW what I know is true because I live it)

MANY gay and lesbian friends here in Peru know they will never be promoted and could be fired if known to be gay.
Men with kids fear if they leave their wives they will never see their kids.
I have seen 15 year-old's tossed into the streets by families (where they are likely to be preyed upon by perverts)
Neighbors have requested gay couples keep all blinds drawn so no one sees them living as a couple (it might ruin the kids! AND THEY WERE NOT BEING SEXUAL)
The list can go on...

Laws are good and all, but we all know there is still discrimination for racial minorities, women and others. Having the laws make you feel acknowledged and provide a recourse. But in actuality you do not feel better when something happens. You still feel hurt and lost. You ask yourself: Why do they hate me so? They don't even know me? Why can't I just live my life and pursue happiness my way, and they theirs?

I can't speak for other minorities. I can't compare, or measure, one minorities rights over another.
I can tell you many straight people are ignorant of what it is like to be gay.
And there is NOT yet equality under the law anywhere in the United States.



This is a sad story and I feel very sorry for you, but by the same token many of the above things have happened to hetero people too...that doesn´t excuse it or make any less bad, but it isn´t only confined to gays, and don´t you think that religious people are the most hypocritical of all? If your "Jesus" had been real and came back to earth , I think the last thing he would be is a christian..I think the worst times and places for any minority have always been and will always be in the most religious states be they christian , muslim or whatever.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Serionlv » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:08 pm

by the same token many of the above things have happened to hetero people too...that doesn´t excuse it or make any less bad, but it isn´t only confined to gays


You are correct. These things do happen to heterosexual people too, but not for being GAY. Maybe the color of their skin, religious belief, or age. I have had other experiences where I suspect my age, religion or other factors have caused me discrimination of some type. I did not include those experiences.

These are things that I would NOT have experienced in my life if I were straight.

I am not saying one type of discrimination is worse than another. Its clearly wrong in all circumstances, and worse when it threatens life or health.

Just trying to share how my sexual orientation has complicated my life so that people understand why we are pursuing change. Why some of us refuse to "keep a low profile" no matter the consequences. Please remember I have no regrets about living openly and honestly. Even if I must face some discomfort and fear in my life.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby JoshuS » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:19 pm

Comet wrote:.... and don´t you think that religious people are the most hypocritical of all? If your "Jesus" had been real and came back to earth , I think the last thing he would be is a christian..I think the worst times and places for any minority have always been and will always be in the most religious states be they christian , muslim or whatever.


A good observation, religion has always been a way to divide, brainwash and maintain control among human beings, my experience has been that usually those who call themselves very religious be it whatever, put your favorite religion name in there, are the most hypocritical, as seen here in this video and leads to believe some people are more righteous and deserving than others (chosen), when in fact the opposite is true. Religion is always in the control business, something people don't understand. It's a guilt producing control business. And if you have heaven as a place where you're rewarded for your goodness, and hell as a place where you're punished for your evil, then you sort of have control over the population. The church for example doesn't like the people to grow up because you can't control grownups, that's why we talk about being born again, when you're born again you're still a child...people don't need to be born again, they need to grow up, they need to accept responsibility for themselves and the world.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby tomsax » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:26 pm

Serionlv wrote:
by the same token many of the above things have happened to hetero people too...that doesn´t excuse it or make any less bad, but it isn´t only confined to gays


You are correct. These things do happen to heterosexual people too, but not for being GAY. Maybe the color of their skin, religious belief, or age. I have had other experiences where I suspect my age, religion or other factors have caused me discrimination of some type. I did not include those experiences.

These are things that I would NOT have experienced in my life if I were straight.

I am not saying one type of discrimination is worse than another. Its clearly wrong in all circumstances, and worse when it threatens life or health.

Just trying to share how my sexual orientation has complicated my life so that people understand why we are pursuing change. Why some of us refuse to "keep a low profile" no matter the consequences. Please remember I have no regrets about living openly and honestly. Even if I must face some discomfort and fear in my life.


I will now walk across the room and take the side of servionle as he seems to have all the best answers.
Tom
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby Comet » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:47 pm

JoshuS wrote:
Comet wrote:.... and don´t you think that religious people are the most hypocritical of all? If your "Jesus" had been real and came back to earth , I think the last thing he would be is a christian..I think the worst times and places for any minority have always been and will always be in the most religious states be they christian , muslim or whatever.


A good observation, religion has always been a way to divide, brainwash and maintain control among human beings, my experience has been that usually those who call themselves very religious be it whatever, put your favorite religion name in there, are the most hypocritical, as seen here in this video and leads to believe some people are more righteous and deserving than others (chosen), when in fact the opposite is true. Religion is always in the control business, something people don't understand. It's a guilt producing control business. And if you have heaven as a place where you're rewarded for your goodness, and hell as a place where you're punished for your evil, then you sort of have control over the population. The church for example doesn't like the people to grow up because you can't control grownups, that's why we talk about being born again, when you're born again you're still a child...people don't need to be born again, they need to grow up, they need to accept responsibility for themselves and the world.


Exactly !
Which countries kill people for being gay ?...religious ones
Which non-religious countries stone people to death ?....none...and before christians get on the " only muslims -do-it" this was invented by christians
which none-religious countries mutilate young girls (muslim) and young boys (jewish and christian)..?
Disgusting....all of them.
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Re: Police attacked gays kissing in the center of Lima

Postby iron butterfly » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:08 pm

Serionlv presents a sad sad story. Not completely restricted to the gay community.
People somehow fall in love and get married and then one day somehow they fall out and leave each other, usually not very happy with each other, and stones are thrown.
What I am confused with, in stories such as Serionlvs is why, after finally deciding to leave the marriage, they like to wallow in the gloom and doom, play the victim and take satisfaction in the fact, that the only reason they find themselves in such a depressing situation, is simply because they finally decided to declare themselves gay.
There have been studies presented for many years now dating back to at least the 1980s that LGBTs are born the way they are and can not change.
I would like to suggest that in cases such as this one, the situation these people find themselves in is not simply because they finally decided to come out and declare the truth, but that they entered into a marriage with a lie, knowing full well they are gay and using someone hoping to possibly hide their actual orientation.
Having lied to your wife for years and years, that is what leads family and friends to realize that you are not such an upstanding guy or role model.
Someone was used, in this case a woman. A womans life was used, abused and destroyed because of a lie beginning with the first date.
The real victim here is the woman

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