Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

This is the place for ON or Off topic conversations. Almost anything goes - but be kind, and no trolling.
Forum rules
While the rules in this forum are more relaxed than in other parts of the Expat site, there are still a few things we’d like you to remember: No name calling, no insults – be civil to each other!
User avatar
tupacperu
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:36 am
Location: Pimentel Beach-Chiclayo- Sanford NC
Contact:

Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby tupacperu » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:37 am

My sentiments and opinion expressed in this article:

Peru’s Presidential Elections: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/peru-ar ... om-reality


User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby americorps » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:16 am

The article is NOT an article, but a load of propaganda that refers to Humala as a moderate.

LOL, really?
El Tunche
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:21 pm
Location: my body in Lima - my heart in Portugal

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby El Tunche » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:48 pm

Yes, that "article" is full of lies
User avatar
tupacperu
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:36 am
Location: Pimentel Beach-Chiclayo- Sanford NC
Contact:

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby tupacperu » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:51 am

Lies "No" Opinion "yes".

Sometimes there is a need for extremes to bring about a counter balance.
User avatar
gerard
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 421
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:43 am
Location: Lima

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby gerard » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:15 am

...while women passers by are invited to touch the Presidential candidate´s groin.


That's not opinion - that a lie. One woman grabbed PPK during a walkabout. No one apart from this so called journalist has suggested she was invited to do so.

Ollanta was forced to ... declare in front of an ultra right wing Cardenal that he was catholic, conservative and antiabortion


Sounds like another lie to me. No one forced him to do anything - his guys set that meeting up and he seemed pretty happy to turn it into a media show.

I'm all for counter balance in the press, but if you're basing your opinions on trash like this then come on, really.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby JoshuS » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:27 am

tupacperu wrote:My sentiments and opinion expressed in this article:

Peru’s Presidential Elections: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/peru-ar ... om-reality


Thanks for posting, very good piece. The opinions in it are certainly factual from past and current events. Contrary to the propaganda stemming from big capital interests, of which PPK is their primary man. Peruvians would disgrace themselves if such US puppet would be elected, they would be worse off. Keiko and all the others, except for Humala (although it would remain to be seen), pretty much fall within that big capital interest as well but perhaps not in the degree of PPK. If Humala could stand to foreign superpower interests and form a nationalist and protectionist government, what all industrialized countries did to get there anyway, perhaps Peru could stand a chance to rise up once and for all.
User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby tomsax » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:33 pm

There was a time, a long time ago, when Alan Garcia was the darling of those with left wing sympathies abroad. Like with Humula ,there was the presumption that he would help the poor.

Five years later the poor's spending power had gone through the floor, poverty had soared, and the only people saved from devastation were the rich who had dollar stashed away in foreign bank accounts. Foreigners could come in and buy everything for next to nothing. Times have not really move on it seems.
Tom
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby americorps » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:18 pm

Well, finally, though in a round about way, tupac admits that humalas approach will exchange one set of problems for another.

The question is, is there any way possible that expelling international investment will ultimately help Peru in what is clearly becoming a world based economy, or are there better ways to solve distribution problems?

It is an interesting juxtaposition to the USA erosion of unions, where the ral distributino of wealth originates. Minimum wage laws, overtime pay, worker safety, benefits, compensation and retirement are all poverty fighting machines, but hardly effective when the jobs are gone for lack of investment.

Chavez claims a 78% reduction in poverty, but fails to mention that he redefined how he measures it and the real reduction is about 5%, less than the reduction in most other Latin American countries during the same time and he also glides past the fact that street crime has risen faster during the same time than in Most South American Countries except Bolivia, Ecuador and Niceragua who all happen to follow Chavez style reforms.

I really understand the resonation of Humalas message of distribution, ending corruption and avoiding imperialism, but his solutions simply do not work. Peru needs someone with better solutions.

I am not saying any other candidate does an outstanding job on that, but neither do they openly plan on defeating any financial gains Peru has made as does Humala
User avatar
tupacperu
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:36 am
Location: Pimentel Beach-Chiclayo- Sanford NC
Contact:

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby tupacperu » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:10 pm

americorps wrote:Well, finally, though in a round about way, tupac admits that humalas approach will exchange one set of problems for another.

The question is, is there any way possible that expelling international investment will ultimately help Peru in what is clearly becoming a world based economy, or are there better ways to solve distribution problems?

It is an interesting juxtaposition to the USA erosion of unions, where the ral distributino of wealth originates. Minimum wage laws, overtime pay, worker safety, benefits, compensation and retirement are all poverty fighting machines, but hardly effective when the jobs are gone for lack of investment.

Chavez claims a 78% reduction in poverty, but fails to mention that he redefined how he measures it and the real reduction is about 5%, less than the reduction in most other Latin American countries during the same time and he also glides past the fact that street crime has risen faster during the same time than in Most South American Countries except Bolivia, Ecuador and Niceragua who all happen to follow Chavez style reforms.

I really understand the resonation of Humalas message of distribution, ending corruption and avoiding imperialism, but his solutions simply do not work. Peru needs someone with better solutions.

I am not saying any other candidate does an outstanding job on that, but neither do they openly plan on defeating any financial gains Peru has made as does Humala


For once I agree with you. but my position is that Humala is all the poor Peruvians have for voice. Unless the Peruvian gov't recognizes this in the next 5 years there will be backlash and all will be for nothing.

I am a social democrat first, I take the postion of the social responsibility. Humala is as close as I can get to represent my views.

The issue with investors is that they will flee when another investment becomes more attractive. Now where will that leave Peru in the long run?

I have pulled out of Peru March 2010, and now am living in Phoenix, AZ It is not because of the 2011 elections, it is because I believe that investment in Peru has run it's course (GDP internal demand/credit). Inflation is already on the horizon. I am holding my property in Peru because with inflation I will get more ROI.

Investor's mentality: go where the money flows.
happyfeet1
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:16 pm

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby happyfeet1 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:00 pm

tupacperu wrote:For once I agree with you. but my position is that Humala is all the poor Peruvians have for voice. Unless the Peruvian gov't recognizes this in the next 5 years there will be backlash and all will be for nothing.


Exactly. This is the problem Peru has. 35 % or so the population wants a radical change in the economic system. From the eyes of the desperately poor, they have seen hardly any improvement in the last few years while they see all the wealth going to the rich & connected in Lima. Humala is not a perfect candidate but he is the only representation the poor have & Peruvians need to acknowledge & respect this. It is promising to see Humala tone down his more extreme proposals & see him strive to connect himself with President Lula of Brazil rather than the far left in South America though the discrepancies between what he says & what is stated in his platform is a legitimate concern.

Second, for all of the fear in the forum about Chavez. We need to understand that Chavez was able to get elected largely because former Presidents in Venezuela had ignored the poor for years. Chavez rose to power with the support of the poor because he was the only voice they had & for this he continues to have strong support among the poor. Although a good percentage of Venezuelans believe in Chavez's socialist program, many poor people continue to vote for him because they fear that any other president who gains power will completely ignore their needs as was the case before Chavez.

Peru needs to understand this lesson if they don't want a President like Chavez. If Fujimori wins (as she seems most likely to meet Humala in the 2nd Round) she must do something to integrate the poor with the economic success Peru has had in the last 10 years or so. If she or any of the other candidates win, I doubt this will happen & believe we will most likely be in the same situation in 5 more years where 35% or so of the population will again be looking a for a radical change. Humala may not win this election but his constituency will remain. Eventually the elites will overplay their hand & and a backlash will follow. Lets hope that backlash is more moderate & responsible than what has happened, for example, in Venezuela. What Peru needs is a responsible center left President, like Lula in Brazil, who understands the value of capitalism in producing wealth but also understands the short comings of capitalism and who will use social programs to redistribute resources so that as the economy grows the poor will see real benefits. High levels of inequality, such as the levels we see in Peru, creates social conflict that although is often hidden or unrecognized in the background can explode at any moment. Social conflicts over resources happen everyday in Peru in the provinces. Many in middle/upper class Lima don't recognize the amount of social discord that is actually present in this country. The fact that Humala has such high support is evidence of this discord that is tearing at the social fabric of the country. Many Peruvians like to think that Humala voters are poor & ignorant but they are wise enough to know that any of the other four candidates means the status quo in an economic system that leaves them behind. Humala is trying to follow the path of the center-left Lula in Brazil & I hope that if he is elected he will genuinely follow Lula's philosophy and that his moderation is not a disguise just to get elected.
renodante
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: miraflores

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby renodante » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:03 pm

JoshuS wrote:
tupacperu wrote:My sentiments and opinion expressed in this article:

Peru’s Presidential Elections: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/peru-ar ... om-reality


Thanks for posting, very good piece. The opinions in it are certainly factual from past and current events. Contrary to the propaganda stemming from big capital interests, of which PPK is their primary man. Peruvians would disgrace themselves if such US puppet would be elected, they would be worse off. Keiko and all the others, except for Humala (although it would remain to be seen), pretty much fall within that big capital interest as well but perhaps not in the degree of PPK. If Humala could stand to foreign superpower interests and form a nationalist and protectionist government, what all industrialized countries did to get there anyway, perhaps Peru could stand a chance to rise up once and for all.



all they need to do is feed you a little populist/leftist rhetoric and you're in, hook line and sinker aren't you?
User avatar
mammalu
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 2251
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:46 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby mammalu » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:17 pm

happyfeet1 wrote:
tupacperu wrote:For once I agree with you. but my position is that Humala is all the poor Peruvians have for voice. Unless the Peruvian gov't recognizes this in the next 5 years there will be backlash and all will be for nothing.


Exactly. This is the problem Peru has. 35 % or so the population wants a radical change in the economic system. From the eyes of the desperately poor, they have seen hardly any improvement in the last few years while they see all the wealth going to the rich & connected in Lima. Humala is not a perfect candidate but he is the only representation the poor have & Peruvians need to acknowledge & respect this. It is promising to see Humala tone down his more extreme proposals & see him strive to connect himself with President Lula of Brazil rather than the far left in South America though the discrepancies between what he says & what is stated in his platform is a legitimate concern.

Second, for all of the fear in the forum about Chavez. We need to understand that Chavez was able to get elected largely because former Presidents in Venezuela had ignored the poor for years. Chavez rose to power with the support of the poor because he was the only voice they had & for this he continues to have strong support among the poor. Although a good percentage of Venezuelans believe in Chavez's socialist program, many poor people continue to vote for him because they fear that any other president who gains power will completely ignore their needs as was the case before Chavez.

Peru needs to understand this lesson if they don't want a President like Chavez. If Fujimori wins (as she seems most likely to meet Humala in the 2nd Round) she must do something to integrate the poor with the economic success Peru has had in the last 10 years or so. If she or any of the other candidates win, I doubt this will happen & believe we will most likely be in the same situation in 5 more years where 35% or so of the population will again be looking a for a radical change. Humala may not win this election but his constituency will remain. Eventually the elites will overplay their hand & and a backlash will follow. Lets hope that backlash is more moderate & responsible than what has happened, for example, in Venezuela. What Peru needs is a responsible center left President, like Lula in Brazil, who understands the value of capitalism in producing wealth but also understands the short comings of capitalism and who will use social programs to redistribute resources so that as the economy grows the poor will see real benefits. High levels of inequality, such as the levels we see in Peru, creates social conflict that although is often hidden or unrecognized in the background can explode at any moment. Social conflicts over resources happen everyday in Peru in the provinces. Many in middle/upper class Lima don't recognize the amount of social discord that is actually present in this country. The fact that Humala has such high support is evidence of this discord that is tearing at the social fabric of the country. Many Peruvians like to think that Humala voters are poor & ignorant but they are wise enough to know that any of the other four candidates means the status quo in an economic system that leaves them behind. Humala is trying to follow the path of the center-left Lula in Brazil & I hope that if he is elected he will genuinely follow Lula's philosophy and that his moderation is not a disguise just to get elected.



Happy Feet, Very well articulated.
Stand with anybody that stands RIGHT. Stand with him while he is right and PART with him when he goes wrong." ! Abraham Lincoln
User avatar
tupacperu
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:36 am
Location: Pimentel Beach-Chiclayo- Sanford NC
Contact:

Re: Peru: Campaigning a World Away From Reality

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:36 am

Second, for all of the fear in the forum about Chavez. We need to understand that Chavez was able to get elected largely because former Presidents in Venezuela had ignored the poor for years. Chavez rose to power with the support of the poor because he was the only voice they had & for this he continues to have strong support among the poor. Although a good percentage of Venezuelans believe in Chavez's socialist program, many poor people continue to vote for him because they fear that any other president who gains power will completely ignore their needs as was the case before Chavez.


Excellent piece Happyfeet:
I am a fan of Brazilian ex-president Lula.

Return to “Expat Conversations”

Login  •  Register