Osama Bin Laden Dead.

This is the place for ON or Off topic conversations. Almost anything goes - but be kind, and no trolling.
Forum rules
While the rules in this forum are more relaxed than in other parts of the Expat site, there are still a few things we’d like you to remember: No name calling, no insults – be civil to each other!
euroman
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Tarapoto

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby euroman » Tue May 03, 2011 11:24 pm

markr wrote:
americorps wrote:markr, I hear that happens a lot in Tarapoto


It's due to the fact that most people who prefer to eat S/. 3.50 menu's wont splash out S/. 15 for the Bismutol to accompany the meal, and prefer to go for the cheaper option. Inca Kola.


A S/3.50 menu in Tarapoto is equal to a S/ 25 in Lima.


What's a Bismutol?


markr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 995
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Miraflores

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby markr » Wed May 04, 2011 12:03 am

euroman wrote:
markr wrote:
americorps wrote:markr, I hear that happens a lot in Tarapoto


It's due to the fact that most people who prefer to eat S/. 3.50 menu's wont splash out S/. 15 for the Bismutol to accompany the meal, and prefer to go for the cheaper option. Inca Kola.


A S/3.50 menu in Tarapoto is equal to a S/ 25 in Lima.


What's a Bismutol?



I've revised my post accordingly and it now reads.

It's due to the fact that most people who prefer to eat S/. 0.75 menu's wont splash out S/. 15 for the Bismutol to accompany the meal......................."

As for Bismutol, it should be drunk as an aperitif at establishments that serve the above menus.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bismutol/43847888117
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Wed May 04, 2011 6:46 am

JoshuS wrote:
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” Joseph Goebbels


Another piece of evidence as to how they're manufacturing the big lie as they go along. Now they're backtracking their original lie. Fact is, so far the US government has shown no proof, only unsubstantiated assertions.

The White House admitted last night that its initial account of the way Osama bin Laden died at the hands of US forces had been riddled with errors.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -died.html
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Wed May 04, 2011 8:10 am

I find it no different to believe the the government is only telling a lie than to believe everything they say.
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Wed May 04, 2011 9:08 am

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... 7336.story
The plot thickens

6:08 p.m. CDT, May 3, 2011
ct-edit-conspiracy-20110503

Build your own conspiracy theory! Pick one from Column A and one from Column B:

Osama bin Laden wasn't killed in Sunday's raid because (he was already dead / he's still alive). The body removed from the Abbottabad compound was buried at sea because (they got the wrong guy / trick question — there was no body).

The alleged mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks (is / was) (a fictitious evildoer created by the U.S. government / a long-dead villain whose body has been kept on ice for years) to drum up support for military adventures around the globe.

The Obama administration (staged an assassination / defrosted the body) to (salvage the president's approval ratings / steal credit for the intelligence groundwork done by the previous administration).

The (raid / hoax) was timed to (coincide with the launch of Obama's re-election bid / ensure that the president's announcement would interrupt Sunday's episode of Donald Trump's "Celebrity Apprentice").

(Bin Laden / Elvis) was spotted in (the crowd / the men's room) at the United Center on Monday as the Chicago Bulls dropped Game 1 of the Eastern Conference semifinals to the Atlanta Hawks. Hey, we can make up stuff too.

This week's doubters have been dubbed "deathers," a not-subtle allusion to the birthers, who are still spinning conspiracies about the president's origins despite all that egg on their faces. Neither group should be confused with the truthers, who reject government and media accounts of the 9/11 attacks, which were (an inside job / a government pretext for war in the Middle East).

Like the birthers, the deathers demand proof. That burial-at-sea business foreclosed their opportunity to inspect the body themselves, and we don't think the photos will satisfy them any more than Obama's detailed birth certificate satisfied the birthers. Facts don't silence conspiracies, they just feed new ones. Speaking of which, have you heard of the mirthers? They're the euphoric masses who assembled outside the White House on Sunday night to celebrate bin Laden's demise — a pep rally orchestrated to ensure America got the message about who's the hero in this tale.

That's some campaign launch: Set up Chicago headquarters, check. Produce long-form birth certificate, check. Kill Osama bin Laden, check. Bus in the cheerleaders to chant "four more years!" Check.

For good measure, it was all planned to come together eight years to the day after President George W. Bush's "mission accomplished" speech, and 66 years and 6 hours after the death of Adolf Hitler — oops, make that 66 years and 6 hours after the world learned about the death of Hitler, but hey, close enough. 666. This is right up there with the Lincoln-Kennedy "coincidences."

If you're keeping score at home: The moonwalk was a fraud. The JFK assassination was a CIA plot. Paul is dead. And Osama bin Laden isn't.
User avatar
alan
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3062
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby alan » Wed May 04, 2011 4:26 pm

JoshuS wrote:
Alan wrote:
JoshuS wrote:
Actually, the video is still there, Josh. No black hand censoring content on YouTube, but now that you know its still there, why not watch it again and tell me how reputable you really think it is, being as objective as you can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBdvumF ... r_embedded

The video gets one thing right though, the picture is a huge fake-aroo, but according to this news story, the pictures were broadcast by Pakistani TV and picked up by other outlets, and never released by US officials:



Exactly, you just corroborated why I posted the picture in the first place. Here's a video for you, perhaps you could learn something from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsv7fxorPhI


Okay.. I am obviously missing something. You said the video showed how the pictures were released by the White House and were fakes. I showed this to be incorrect. The pictures were from years ago, and were not released by the White House, but by media in Pakistan.

You said the video had been removed from You Tube, and suggested implicitly that some censoring "power that be" was involved. I showed you the video was still there.

Somehow, this all "corroborates" your initial point. Hmm..
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Wed May 04, 2011 7:08 pm

Alan wrote:
JoshuS wrote:
Alan wrote:
JoshuS wrote:
Okay.. I am obviously missing something.


Yes, you are. This picture had evidently been released on main stream media:

http://www.euronews.net/2011/05/02/dead ... is-a-fake/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... photo-fake
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

And now the coup de grace on the big lie: "Obama won't release the dead body pictures"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

Here's yet another video for you:

Why the War on Terror?

"We have an obligation to every last victim of this illegal aggression because all of this carnage has been done in our name, since WWII 90% of the casualties of war are unarmed civilians, a third of them children, our victims are done nothing to us, from Palestine to Afghanistan, to Iraq, to Somalia, to wherever our next target may be, the murders are not collateral damage, they're the nature of modern warfare. They don't hate us because of our freedoms, they hate us because every day we are funding and committing crimes against humanity.

The so called "war on terror" is a cover up for our military aggression to gain control of the resources of Western Asia. This is sending the poor of this country to kill the poor of those Muslim countries. This is trading blood for oil, this is genocide, and to most of the world: We are the terrorists. In these times, remaining silent on our responsibilities to the world and its future is criminal. And in light of our complicity in the supreme crimes against humanity in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the ongoing violations of the UN charter and international law, how dare any American criticize the actions of legitimate resistance to illegal occupation. Our so called "enemies" in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine or other colonies around the world and in our inner cities here at home are struggling against the oppressive hand of Empire, demanding respect for their humanity. They are labeled "insurgents" or "terrorists", for resisting rape and pillage by the Anglo American establishment, but they're our brothers and sisters in their struggle for justice. The civilians at the other end of our weapons don't have a choice. But American soldiers have choices, and while there may have been some doubt five years ago, today we know the truth: Our soldiers don't sacrifice for duty on our country, they sacrifice for Kellogg Brown & Root, Halliburton, etc.

They don't fight for America, they fight for their lives, and they fight suicides because we put them in a war zone. They're not defending our freedoms, they're laying the foundation for fourteen permanent military bases to defend the freedom of Exxon Mobil and British Petroleum. They're not establishing democracy, they're establishing the bases for an economic occupation to continue after the military occupation has ended. Iraqi society today, thanks to American help is defined by house raids, death squads, check points, detentions, curfews, blood in the streets and constant violence. We must dare to speak out in support of the Iraqi people et al, who resist and endure the horrific existence that we brought upon them through our blood thirsty empireal crusade. We must dare to speak out in support of those brave American war resistors, the real military heroes who uphold their oath to defend their constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, including those terrorists selves in Washington DC, more commonly known as the Legislative Executive and Judicial branches.

Frederick Douglas said: "Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters...the struggle may be a moral one, or a physical one, may be both, but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand, it never has and it never will." Every one of us should keep demanding, keep fighting, keep thundering, keep plowing, keep speaking, keep struggling until justice is served...no justice, no peace."
Dr. Dahlia Wasfi
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Wed May 04, 2011 7:38 pm

it is false logic you are using Josh..sort of God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is Blind..ray charles is god.


But is is far beyond false logic. You omit facts that do not fit you...like the fact that the picture released was NOT released by the west and especialy not the white house, but a small press in a third world country. You are trying to suggest that because it is out there, somehow it was released by Obama and that suggestion is far from any facts available.

You are also simply glossing over as though they do not exist a long list of very reasonable reasons Obama will not make the photos public. One only needs to look at the result of the releasing of the Saddam Hussein hanging video to see the consequences of such an action.

However, and I will be very clear and direct, I suspect it does not matter what evidence exists to the contrary, you will believe what you want to believe.

I find that sort of logic...unhelpful in any debate.
User avatar
mahou123
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 598
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby mahou123 » Wed May 04, 2011 7:41 pm

JoshuS wrote:This is sending the poor of this country to kill the poor of those Muslim countries. This is trading blood for oil, this is genocide, and to most of the world: We are the terrorists.


I think this is true. I've been around the world and I'd say this is the prevailing sentiment everywhere. And such sentiment is certainly on the rise right now with the assault on "Mr Gaddafi", who seems to be on his way to becoming the next Bin Laden.

Looking at the footage of drunk Americans celebrating news of Bin Laden killing on the streets of USA, one has to wonder what's the fundamental difference between these people and their opponents in the Middle East. They don't seem any more civilized.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Wed May 04, 2011 8:01 pm

mahou123 wrote:
JoshuS wrote:This is sending the poor of this country to kill the poor of those Muslim countries. This is trading blood for oil, this is genocide, and to most of the world: We are the terrorists.


I think this is true. I've been around the world and I'd say this is the prevailing sentiment everywhere. And such sentiment is certainly on the rise right now with the assault on "Mr Gaddafi", who seems to be on his way to becoming the next Bin Laden.

Looking at the footage of drunk Americans celebrating news of Bin Laden killing on the streets of USA, one has to wonder what's the fundamental difference between these people and their opponents in the Middle East. They don't seem any more civilized.


Nuh, lol, Ghaddafi has been demonized by the Anglo American propaganda machine just like they do with Chavez, over and over again, not saying Ghadafi is a saint...but the empireal forces want him out because among other things he had always been a dictator they couldn't manage, and oil is just half the story, but it's much more involved than that, it's about the re-installing Wheeler Military base in Lybia which was there prior to him, it's about total control of the Mediaterranean ocean, about containing France and China and adjacent countries like Niger, Chad and Sudan, it's about opening finally the door to Africom to install a HQ in Africa, it's about in short about full spectrum dominance, pentagonese for total military control of the world.
User avatar
mahou123
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 598
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:46 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby mahou123 » Wed May 04, 2011 8:37 pm

JoshuS wrote:Nuh, lol, Ghaddafi has been demonized by the Anglo American propaganda machine just like they do with Chavez, over and over again, not saying Ghadafi is a saint...but the empireal forces want him out because among other things he had always been a dictator they couldn't manage, and oil is just half the story, but it's much more involved than that, it's about the re-installing Wheeler Military base in Lybia which was there prior to him, it's about total control of the Mediaterranean ocean, about containing France and China and adjacent countries like Niger, Chad and Sudan, it's about opening finally the door to Africom to install a HQ in Africa, it's about in short about full spectrum dominance, pentagonese for total military control of the world.


Whatever it is, I'm sure that even Lybian enemies of Gaddafi, who want him dead, don't have any illusions of the air strikes bringing them any "peace", "democracy", "freedom" or whatever is the reason of this as shown on television in the USA. They know pretty well what happens in Iraq and Afganistan.

But anyway, in absence of Saddam and Osama, there will be a need for a "big" bad guy, responsible for the next major terrorist strike in the West. And if Gaddafi is not dead by then, he seems an obvious choice to be appointed to play this role.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Wed May 04, 2011 9:07 pm

mahou123 wrote:
JoshuS wrote:Whatever it is, I'm sure that even Lybian enemies of Gaddafi, who want him dead, don't have any illusions of the air strikes bringing them any "peace", "democracy", "freedom" or whatever is the reason of this as shown on television in the USA. They know pretty well what happens in Iraq and Afganistan.

But anyway, in absence of Saddam and Osama, there will be a need for a "big" bad guy, responsible for the next major terrorist strike in the West. And if Gaddafi is not dead by then, he seems an obvious choice to be appointed to play this role.


You're correct, they need a "boogey-man", like Chavez in Latin America, but Ghaddafi is way far from it. This "killing" of Osama has certainly open the door for false flag operations blaming Al-Qaida's retaliation for it. Hillary and Obama already said it, "the enemy is still out there": Al-Qaida. And of course, they can appear anywhere, using it as a justification to escalate the "war on terror".
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Wed May 04, 2011 9:12 pm

I have repeatedly asked for some sort of proof of your wild accusations and have yet to see a single shred presented by anyone.

I stand resolved that demonstrates you have none.
euroman
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Tarapoto

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby euroman » Wed May 04, 2011 10:51 pm

JoshuS wrote:
mahou123 wrote:
JoshuS wrote:Whatever it is, I'm sure that even Lybian enemies of Gaddafi, who want him dead, don't have any illusions of the air strikes bringing them any "peace", "democracy", "freedom" or whatever is the reason of this as shown on television in the USA. They know pretty well what happens in Iraq and Afganistan.

But anyway, in absence of Saddam and Osama, there will be a need for a "big" bad guy, responsible for the next major terrorist strike in the West. And if Gaddafi is not dead by then, he seems an obvious choice to be appointed to play this role.


You're correct, they need a "boogey-man", like Chavez in Latin America, but Ghaddafi is way far from it. This "killing" of Osama has certainly open the door for false flag operations blaming Al-Qaida's retaliation for it. Hillary and Obama already said it, "the enemy is still out there": Al-Qaida. And of course, they can appear anywhere, using it as a justification to escalate the "war on terror".


I am sure that the resumes for the jobopening to replace Osama Bin Laden are rolling in by the millions at the Al Qaida headquarters.
euroman
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Tarapoto

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby euroman » Wed May 04, 2011 10:56 pm

markr wrote:
euroman.
I know that Belgians have had problems recently electing a government. In fact according to Wikipedia "Belgium matched the record for time taken to form a new democratic government after an election, at 249 days, held until then by Iraq." But imagine that, after 249 days, your fellow countrymen and women had chosen you to lead their country, payed all your fines due here in Peru, and repatriated you with your motherland.
How, as an influential western leader, would you have gone about solving this situation?
I am intrigued at the thought of your reply.


Markr, in Belgium we are not too happy about Osama`s death. He was a strong leader and organizer. He was our last hope to help us form a new government.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Thu May 05, 2011 8:21 am

euroman wrote:
JoshuS wrote:
mahou123 wrote:
JoshuS wrote:Whatever it is, I'm sure that even Lybian enemies of Gaddafi, who want him dead, don't have any illusions of the air strikes bringing them any "peace", "democracy", "freedom" or whatever is the reason of this as shown on television in the USA. They know pretty well what happens in Iraq and Afganistan.

But anyway, in absence of Saddam and Osama, there will be a need for a "big" bad guy, responsible for the next major terrorist strike in the West. And if Gaddafi is not dead by then, he seems an obvious choice to be appointed to play this role.


You're correct, they need a "boogey-man", like Chavez in Latin America, but Ghaddafi is way far from it. This "killing" of Osama has certainly open the door for false flag operations blaming Al-Qaida's retaliation for it. Hillary and Obama already said it, "the enemy is still out there": Al-Qaida. And of course, they can appear anywhere, using it as a justification to escalate the "war on terror".


I am sure that the resumes for the job opening to replace Osama Bin Laden are rolling in by the millions at the Al Qaida headquarters.


Al-Qaida was created by the CIA and Osama was an asset of the US, and there's no HQ, lol, you've watched too many Hollywood movies. There is a remnant of that group put together by the US but they represent no "great threat" these days. It's used as a fear boogey-man to cover up US military meedling in Eurasia. There's a risk however of blow back, based on all the hatred and desire for revenge the US has created around the world in the Muslim community by invading, murdering, and plundering their countries, this could come from any radical Muslim, and this is the real "threat". Can you blame them?
User avatar
mammalu
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 2251
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:46 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby mammalu » Thu May 05, 2011 10:00 am

Kelly wrote:They took pictures, they got confirmation at the scene from witnesses (including his wife), they got DNA evidence. For most people, that is sufficient.

For those who doubt, it won't matter how much proof is shown. If they have a dozen expert witnesses do independent testing of the DNA, a million pictures of the body with identifying marks - hell, if they toured the world with the body in a glass casket so that everyone could see it for themselves - there will still be people who will deny his death and call it a conspiracy.


LOL, looks like you are correct 100%.
Stand with anybody that stands RIGHT. Stand with him while he is right and PART with him when he goes wrong." ! Abraham Lincoln
User avatar
adrian Thorne
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1134
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:29 am
Location: Sol De La Molina

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby adrian Thorne » Thu May 05, 2011 2:39 pm

Kelly some people do not want to hear the truth, even when proven.
One example is:
The Holocaust never happened. Where are the 3,000,000 jews that were never killed by the Nazis in Poland's Auschwitz death camp. It was all propoganda. You cannot ask the families as they were the families.
euroman
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Tarapoto

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby euroman » Thu May 05, 2011 6:06 pm

adrian Thorne wrote:Kelly some people do not want to hear the truth, even when proven.
One example is:
The Holocaust never happened. Where are the 3,000,000 jews that were never killed by the Nazis in Poland's Auschwitz death camp. It was all propoganda. You cannot ask the families as they were the families.



When they talk about the people killed in concentration camps why do they only talk about Jews. There were a lot of Gypsies, Gays, Lesbians and people from other nationalities killed. Or are the jews considered as more worth than the others. Or do the jews consider themselves as 'the ubermensch'.
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Thu May 05, 2011 6:19 pm

While I think it is an absurd leap of logic to move from the omission of others killed in the Holocaust to making some sort of anti-semitic suggestion, I am not sure that everyone realizes that 42% of those killed in the Holocaust were not Jewish.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Thu May 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Kelly wrote:They took pictures, they got confirmation at the scene from witnesses (including his wife), they got DNA evidence. For most people, that is sufficient.
For those who doubt, it won't matter how much proof is shown. If they have a dozen expert witnesses do independent testing of the DNA, a million pictures of the body with identifying marks - hell, if they toured the world with the body in a glass casket so that everyone could see it for themselves - there will still be people who will deny his death and call it a conspiracy.


To those who search for truth, and have an understanding of history,( real history, not the one we got patriotically packaged in school) and geopolitics, this statement won't come as surprise:
The attack of 9/11 was a false flag operation, planned and carried out by Anglo-American intelligence assets, blamed on “Al-Qaeda”, despite no credible supporting evidence. And, Osama was a usable "boogey-man".

Nonetheless, it's always amazing to me how people naively wrap themselves in patriotic self delusions while believing blindly in what their paternal government figures tells them to believe, not knowing that they don't have their best interest at heart. The 'noble lie' as described in Plato's "The Republic" is just one of the tactics used to keep you misinformed and controlled, while using FEAR to make you accept their agenda which almost never is in the people's best interests.

What follows are the statements from two well known whistle-blowers, two of the so many these days who have dared to come out and speak out using the Prison Planet venue, as they can't speak out, understandably so, in main stream. Yes, we're living extra ordinary times.
But, of course, like someone said, no matter how much evidence it is presented...For those who doubt, it won't matter how much proof is shown. But here it is for those who care to learn what's really going on. Hope people listen first before making any emotional comments.

Dr. Steve Pieczenik served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and/or
Senior Policy Planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance,
George Schultz and James Baker. Dr. Pieczenik continues to consult to the
Department of Defense

Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik's information:
http://www.stevepieczenik.com/bio.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pieczenik

Dr. Pieczenik is a CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) member which can be verified here

Pieczenik is now using his experience and knowledge to help the American people get rid of the state terrorists and government liars in Washington's political/banking/security establishment. This deceptive and secretive establishment killed nearly 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001, and then shipped off many more Americans to their untimely
deaths in a criminal and fraudulent war on terrorism that was
artificially created based on lies and deception, and should have never
been started.

Pieczenik has appeared on the Alex Jones show all throughout this week, exposing the politically staged announcement of Osama Bin Laden's death, and calling 9/11 a false flag operation that was secretly conducted by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and other members of the Bush administration. Pieczenik says that a military general who served under Wolfowitz told him that 9/11 was a false flag, and that he will reveal more information in court once Bush
administration officials are charged with war crimes, state terrorism,
and crimes against humanity.

Dr. Pieczenik received the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) fellowship where he was recruited by Lawrence Eagleburger as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Management. In that position he was the created the Office to Combat Terrorism, the Family Liason Office. He reorganized the medical department within the State Department and merged and reorganized the Department of Cultural Affairs and US Information Agency into one organization, the International Communications Agency.

Dr. Pieczenik created first hostage survival courses in the US government and became famous for developing the strategy and tactics for rescuing hostages around the world. Through his hostage negotiation skills he helped save many lives. He developed the basic tenets for pscyhological warfare, counter terrorism, strategy and tactics for transcultural negotiations for the US State Department, military and intelligence communities and other agencies of the US Government.

Dr. Pieczenik served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and/or Senior Policy Planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker. Dr. Pieczenik continues to consult to the Department of Defense.

Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under three different Presidents and still works with the Defense Department, shockingly told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job.


Pieczenik cannot be dismissed as a “conspiracy theorist”. [2] He served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. A former US Navy Captain, Pieczenik achieved two prestigious Harry C. Solomon Awards at the Harvard Medical School as he simultaneously completed a PhD at MIT.

Recruited by Lawrence Eagleburger as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Management, Pieczenik went on to develop, “the basic tenets for psychological warfare, counter terrorism, strategy and tactics for transcultural negotiations for the US State Department, military and intelligence communities and other agencies of the US Government,” while also developing foundational strategies for hostage rescue that were later employed around the world.

Pieczenik also served as a senior policy planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker and worked on George W. Bush’s election campaign against Al Gore. His record underscores the fact that he is one of the most deeply connected men in intelligence circles over the past three decades plus.

The character of Jack Ryan, who appears in many Tom Clancy novels and was also played by Harrison Ford in the popular 1992 movie Patriot Games, is also based on Steve Pieczenik.

Excerpt from: Interview of Steve R. Pieczenik - Alex Jones Show - April 24, 2002 (Partial Transcript)
"What I do I've done a lot of negotiation, I do a lot of strategy and tactics where I've done a lot of things. For example, with the Gorbachev and Reagan negotiations, with Arafat, I worked against him, I would track down terrorists and then I worked against Arafat, I worked with Osama bin Laden in '78, '81. In '79 when he was in Afghanistan and with Saddam Hussein when he was our ally and I worked against him when they weren't our ally."

Short interview version: 5/5/11
Dr. Steve Pieczenik: The Psychological Resurrection of Osama Bin Laden 1/2

These are 7 parts, you'll need to find them on youtube 'cause the board won't allow me to post more than 5 unfortunately.

Paul Craig Roberts
From early 1981 to January 1982 he served as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy. President Ronald Reagan and Treasury Secretary Donald Regan credited him with a major role in the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981, and he was awarded the Treasury Department's Meritorious Service Award for "outstanding contributions to the formulation of United States economic policy."[3] Roberts resigned in January 1982 to become the first occupant of the William E. Simon Chair for Economic Policy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, then part of Georgetown University.[8] He held this position until 1993. He went on to write The Supply-Side Revolution (1984), in which he explained the reformulation of macroeconomic theory and policy that he had helped to create.

Interview on 5/5/11:
Paul Craig Roberts: Osama bin Laden's Useful Death 1/2
These are 2 parts, you'll need to find them on youtube 'cause the board won't allow me to post more than 5 unfortunately.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Fri May 06, 2011 6:37 am

User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby tomsax » Fri May 06, 2011 7:24 am

Is this the same Dr Steve Pieczenik on wikepedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pieczenik

Wikipedia put his date of birth as 1943 which means he would have been less than 18 years old while serving as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State in the Nixon Government. That would be very impressive.... if true!
Tom
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Fri May 06, 2011 7:43 am

tomsax wrote:Is this the same Dr Steve Pieczenik on wikepedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pieczenik

Wikipedia put his date of birth as 1943 which means he would have been less than 18 years old while serving as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State in the Nixon Government. That would be very impressive.... if true!


I suggest you read more history while working on your math a little better. Nixon administrations was 1969-1974. So, that means Dr. Pieczenik could've been anywhere from 26 to 31 yrs old when serving under his administration, how many years and in what years, no idea, but he sure had a meteoric career per his own statements.
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Fri May 06, 2011 7:47 am

Latest Headline

BREAKING NEWS: Al-Qaida confirms Osama bin Laden's death in an Internet statement.


That dang al qaida, they are in it with the great Obama Bush Conspiracy.

I think Osama is being kept next to Elvis
User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby tomsax » Fri May 06, 2011 8:12 am

JoshuS wrote:
tomsax wrote:Is this the same Dr Steve Pieczenik on wikepedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pieczenik

Wikipedia put his date of birth as 1943 which means he would have been less than 18 years old while serving as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State in the Nixon Government. That would be very impressive.... if true!


I suggest you read more history while working on your math a little better. Nixon administrations was 1969-1974. So, that means Dr. Pieczenik could've been anywhere from 26 to 31 yrs old when serving under his administration, how many years and in what years, no idea, but he sure had a meteoric career per his own statements.


Damn! Your right, I'm getting my presidents mixed up. I guess I am not so interested in American history as I should be.

It still odd however that if he was an insider who said something you didn't agree with you would say "he is an insider which means you can't trust him", but as he's saying something you want to be true you say "he's an insider, we should beleive him". It the end of the day it means your main criteria is how close his assertions are to what you want to be true rather than any other evidence.

I wonder what evidence that anyone could present to you that could convince you that Obama was alive a month ago and isn't now? I suspect as Kelly says there is nothing.
Tom
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Fri May 06, 2011 8:16 am

tomsax wrote:
I wonder what evidence that anyone could present to you that could convince you that Obama was alive a month ago and isn't now? I suspect as Kelly says there is nothing.



Tom..Obama or Osama? :|
User avatar
adrian Thorne
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1134
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:29 am
Location: Sol De La Molina

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby adrian Thorne » Fri May 06, 2011 8:32 am

euroman wrote:
adrian Thorne wrote:Kelly some people do not want to hear the truth, even when proven.
One example is:
The Holocaust never happened. Where are the 3,000,000 jews that were never killed by the Nazis in Poland's Auschwitz death camp. It was all propoganda. You cannot ask the families as they were the families.



When they talk about the people killed in concentration camps why do they only talk about Jews. There were a lot of Gypsies, Gays, Lesbians and people from other nationalities killed. Or are the jews considered as more worth than the others. Or do the jews consider themselves as 'the ubermensch'.


My point was in line with any denial that may be made relating to the death of Osama Bin Laden. Not an excuse for yet another bun fight

The Holocaust denial was directly aimed at the Jews and I quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews in World War II, usually referred to as the Holocaust.[1] The key claims of Holocaust denial are: the German Nazi government had no official policy or intention of exterminating Jews, Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews, and the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.[2][3][4]

Holocaust deniers generally do not accept the term "denial" as an appropriate description of their activities, and use the term "revisionism" instead.[5] Scholars use the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from historical revisionists, who use established historical methodologies.[6] The methodologies of Holocaust deniers are criticized as based on a predetermined conclusion that ignores extensive historical evidence to the contrary.[7]

Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples.[8] For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be antisemitic[9] denialism.[10]
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Fri May 06, 2011 9:59 am

tomsax wrote:
JoshuS wrote:
tomsax wrote:Is this the same Dr Steve Pieczenik on wikepedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pieczenik

Wikipedia put his date of birth as 1943 which means he would have been less than 18 years old while serving as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State in the Nixon Government. That would be very impressive.... if true!


I suggest you read more history while working on your math a little better. Nixon administrations was 1969-1974. So, that means Dr. Pieczenik could've been anywhere from 26 to 31 yrs old when serving under his administration, how many years and in what years, no idea, but he sure had a meteoric career per his own statements.


Damn! Your right, I'm getting my presidents mixed up. I guess I am not so interested in American history as I should be.

It still odd however that if he was an insider who said something you didn't agree with you would say "he is an insider which means you can't trust him", but as he's saying something you want to be true you say "he's an insider, we should beleive him". It the end of the day it means your main criteria is how close his assertions are to what you want to be true rather than any other evidence.

I wonder what evidence that anyone could present to you that could convince you that Obama was alive a month ago and isn't now? I suspect as Kelly says there is nothing.


There's no compelling and credible evidence at all presented by the US government, only their staged and bogus story "corroborated" by plenty of unsubstantiated, inconsistent and retracted claims. They can't even stand the scrutiny of a logic process. There's plenty of evidence that instead corroborates Dr. Pieczenik's claims, like those of B. Bhutto, ex Pakistani president et al.
In the end of the day you're just projecting your own beliefs, indoctrinations and loyalties to the paternalist image of your own government and perhaps your queen.

Bottom line, there's much to logically asses from a ex top insider (still active as an advisor) who has much to lose by coming out than the US government which has proven to be a total fraud by lying to the people now and in the past. But, yes, no matter how much logic and credible evidence nothing will a fixed and indoctrinated paradigm.
User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby tomsax » Fri May 06, 2011 12:35 pm

JoshuS wrote:There's no compelling and credible evidence at all presented by the US government, only their staged and bogus story "corroborated" by plenty of unsubstantiated, inconsistent and retracted claims. They can't even stand the scrutiny of a logic process. There's plenty of evidence that instead corroborates Dr. Pieczenik's claims, like those of B. Bhutto, ex Pakistani president et al.
In the end of the day you're just projecting your own beliefs, indoctrinations and loyalties to the paternalist image of your own government and perhaps your queen.

Bottom line, there's much to logically asses from a ex top insider (still active as an advisor) who has much to lose by coming out than the US government which has proven to be a total fraud by lying to the people now and in the past. But, yes, no matter how much logic and credible evidence nothing will a fixed and indoctrinated paradigm.


So what would be sufficent evidence for you? What would prove to you that he had been alive and had recently been killed?

I give a lot of credence to the philosophy of science of Karl Popper. His idea was that knowledge can only be scientific if it can be falsified. There has to be some test against knowledge whereby if that test is not met, you say, okay, yes I was wrong and now I need to change my theory. Your new theory can in turn also be falsified by other evidence. This has happened in science with successive scientific theories abandonned and then new improved one devised that are also susceptible to falsification (if wrong) but are more difficult to falsify because they are a closer representation of the truth.

The idea is that a scientist and indeed any truth seeker has to set himself to failure otherwise he is constructing his theories in a self delusional bubble. There are many feels of quasi science that are never really open to challenge by evidence because excuses can always be made. Psychoanalysis is one such field, astrology, creationism, religions in general and most political ideologies. If there is no way you can be proved wrong then you are unlikely to be right, even if within your bubble the truth looks totally obvious.

So I am curious to know if you can admit to any evidence that would falsify your claims?
Tom
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Fri May 06, 2011 1:27 pm

tomsax wrote:
JoshuS wrote:There's no compelling and credible evidence at all presented by the US government, only their staged and bogus story "corroborated" by plenty of unsubstantiated, inconsistent and retracted claims. They can't even stand the scrutiny of a logic process. There's plenty of evidence that instead corroborates Dr. Pieczenik's claims, like those of B. Bhutto, ex Pakistani president et al.
In the end of the day you're just projecting your own beliefs, indoctrinations and loyalties to the paternalist image of your own government and perhaps your queen.

Bottom line, there's much to logically asses from a ex top insider (still active as an advisor) who has much to lose by coming out than the US government which has proven to be a total fraud by lying to the people now and in the past. But, yes, no matter how much logic and credible evidence nothing will a fixed and indoctrinated paradigm.


So what would be sufficent evidence for you? What would prove to you that he had been alive and had recently been killed?

I give a lot of credence to the philosophy of science of Karl Popper. His idea was that knowledge can only be scientific if it can be falsified. There has to be some test against knowledge whereby if that test is not met, you say, okay, yes I was wrong and now I need to change my theory. Your new theory can in turn also be falsified by other evidence. This has happened in science with successive scientific theories abandonned and then new improved one devised that are also susceptible to falsification (if wrong) but are more difficult to falsify because they are a closer representation of the truth.

The idea is that a scientist and indeed any truth seeker has to set himself to failure otherwise he is constructing his theories in a self delusional bubble. There are many feels of quasi science that are never really open to challenge by evidence because excuses can always be made. Psychoanalysis is one such field, astrology, creationism, religions in general and most political ideologies. If there is no way you can be proved wrong then you are unlikely to be right, even if within your bubble the truth looks totally obvious.

So I am curious to know if you can admit to any evidence that would falsify your claims?


Pooper pooped long time ago. What evidence in the official story makes it proven to you that he had been alive and recently been killed? I'm not curious at all, but I ask anyway.
User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby tomsax » Fri May 06, 2011 5:17 pm

JoshuS wrote:Pooper pooped long time ago. What evidence in the official story makes it proven to you that he had been alive and recently been killed? I'm not curious at all, but I ask anyway.


Did you try just answering my question first? Can you really not think of one piece of evidence that would falsify your assertion that he wasn't killed recently by the US forces, that he was killed around 10 years ago and that the US claims are a sham? Popper would argue that if your claim cannot be falsified then it can't be tested therefore we can't really trust it. The belief is more of act of faith, an idea that sits in a bubble with no chance of being modified or challenged by actual reality.

The importance of falsifiability is exactly because it is often very difficult to prove things. Of course I can't prove he was alive and was killed recently which is exactly why you found it easy to ask this question as a diversion to answering my question.

The interesting thing is you can't seem to think of one thing that you will accept would falsify your claims (though I would love to be corrected on that). I can however think of countless ways the US government claims could be easily falsified if they were indeed false. They have given a time, an exact address, an account of other people who were there who are still alive, some of them injured by the US forces themselves. There are neighbours, there are Al Queda followers who could easily claim and if true provide evidence that he was not killed recently and that he died further in the past.

Almost everyone will accept that and if it is proven false of course the US government will look like idiots. Like them or not the US government have given a very falsifiable account of what has happened. You on the other hand can't give one example of how your account could be proved wrong. You will always be able to make excuses for any evidence provided against you (or can you prove me wrong?).
Tom
User avatar
Kelly
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3871
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:28 pm
Location: Lima, Peru
Contact:

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby Kelly » Fri May 06, 2011 5:56 pm

Don't you know, Tom - the Pakistani dude that live tweeted the whole raid is really an asset of US intelligence, placed in Abbottabad over 10 years ago, just so he'd be in place now for Obama to set in motion so he could get his "Osama bump" before the elections.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Sat May 07, 2011 7:57 pm

Kelly wrote:Don't you know, Tom - the Pakistani dude that live tweeted the whole raid is really an asset of US intelligence, placed in Abbottabad over 10 years ago, just so he'd be in place now for Obama to set in motion so he could get his "Osama bump" before the elections.


Comments like the one posted above shows utter naiveté. No one denies that the military raid took place and that certainly a "terrorist" got killed in doing so, and that "....a Pakistani dude tweeted the whole raid", but you don't need to be a CIA asset to watch from a distance what's happening and tweet it out, but to use that argument to confirm OBL's death is just that, naiveté. Although yeah, this is a well timed score for Obama's political gain as well, why not. But remember, it's not really about Obama, what's really is about is the establishment he represents which has been very down in the polls for obvious reasons.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Sat May 07, 2011 8:02 pm

tomsax wrote:Did you try just answering my question first? Can you really not think of one piece of evidence that would falsify your assertion that he wasn't killed recently by the US forces, that he was killed around 10 years ago and that the US claims are a sham?


Well, I already did, that you choose to flip it around by retorting in turn just because it doesn't suit your own illusory projections is not my problem. Here's again:
"There's no compelling and credible evidence at all presented by the US government, only their staged and bogus story "corroborated" by plenty of unsubstantiated, inconsistent and retracted claims. They can't even stand the scrutiny of a logic process. There's plenty of evidence that instead corroborates Dr. Pieczenik's claims, like those of B. Bhutto, ex Pakistani president et al."

tomsax wrote:Popper would argue that if your claim cannot be falsified then it can't be tested therefore we can't really trust it. The belief is more of act of faith, an idea that sits in a bubble with no chance of being modified or challenged by actual reality.

The importance of falsifiability is exactly because it is often very difficult to prove things. Of course I can't prove he was alive and was killed recently which is exactly why you found it easy to ask this question as a diversion to answering my question.

The interesting thing is you can't seem to think of one thing that you will accept would falsify your claims (though I would love to be corrected on that). I can however think of countless ways the US government claims could be easily falsified if they were indeed false. They have given a time, an exact address, an account of other people who were there who are still alive, some of them injured by the US forces themselves. There are neighbours, there are Al Queda followers who could easily claim and if true provide evidence that he was not killed recently and that he died further in the past................


I've said this before, and I'll say it again, your premises are always questionable because its internal logic is seriously flawed. No wonder your conclusions are always totally askew. You're pretending to apply a method of science to an event which by nature is very dynamic, contextually historical and above all highly political. Your proposing an absurdity. You've done this before and are doing it again. Not only that, you're blatantly reducing what should be a logical and historical analysis within a very political context to a "what-if" scientific lab test observed in a vacuum. How much more absurd can you get?

It's obvious that you agree with the official version, and that's your right, but why don't just say so, instead of deceptively retorting with an absurdity?

Moving on back to the recent events, we need to look at some past former statements, since it seems OBL had nine lives, what a cat:

- December 2001, Fox News reported that the Pakistani Observer newspaper informed that OBL had passed away on December same year on account of long history of kidney disease.
- January 18 2002, Pakistani ex-president Mushara also informed quite bluntly " I think frankly OBL is dead".
- July 17 2002, the then head of counter-intelligence of the FBI, Dale Watson said: " I think PBL is dead".
- October 2002, Afghan president Amid Karzai told CNN: "We have come to believe OBL is most likely dead."
- November 2005, Senator Harry Reid revealed that "he had been told that OBL died in an earthquake in Afghanistan, in that year."
- September 2006, French intelligence leaked a report that "OBL had died in Afghanistan.".
- November 2 2007, former Pakistani Prime Minister (murdered later that year) Benazir Bhutto affirmed in Al-Jazeera, David Frost program that "Omar Sheikh had killed OBL."
- March 2009, former US intelligence officer and professor of International Relations at Boston University, Angelo Codevilla said: "All evidence suggest that Elvis Presley is more alive than OBL."
- May 2009, Pakistani president Asif Zardari confirmed that his counterpart in the American Intelligence Agency hadn't heard from OBL in seven years, so he was probably dead".

And now May 2011, his most recent killing, shot on the face mafia style, no dead body to show for, quick DNA on the run, and a hasty disposal in the ocean. One would think that at least we would get some evidence, hmmm, something. How strange? But this rings a bell, remember when the WTC collapsed? and all the scrap metal, instead of analyzing, what is it that brought these two buildings down so terribly, demolition style? No, all the metal, the beams from the WTC were quickly shipped across the Hudson River into NJ, and from NJ they were exported, as sold scrap metal to Taiwan and S. Korea. No forensics, no analysis of any sort. OBL was an asset of the CIA, and more likely than not the CIA and its network would know of his whereabouts at any given time.

"Al-Qaida is not a terrorist group but a data-base of international Muhajidin and arm smugglers created by the CIA and the Saudis to funnel guerrilla arms and money into the Taliban who were fighting the Soviet invasion back in the 80's. The truth is there's no Islamic army or terrorists group called Al-Qaida, any informed intelligence officer knows this, but there's a propaganda campaign to make the public believe that A-Qaida exists, a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. and that country behind this propaganda is the United States of America"
Robin Cook, 2005, UK parliament member, who died soon after that same year.

But Cook is only confirming what others have said, including former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski when told the Senate that the war on terror is "a mythical historical narrative". Not only has the U.S. government hyped Al Qaeda, but it has issued numerous fake terror alerts to scare people and condition them to respond to the stimuli of the word: Terrorism. I advise people, by the way, to read Brzezinski's "The Grand Chessboard".

Another thing, US administrations have a history of lots of fabricated information, for example when we were told on the US going into Iraq, that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, all kinds, even receipts, invoices, tales, testimonies were provided, satellite images, it was all a fraud, so the idea that we are protecting people in the US by terrorizing people around the world, this is a great crime and a lie.
I will just reiterate going back to Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, that he's a real top intelligence insider, the real deal, CFR member, who has more to lose that to gain by whistle-blowing the facts on OBL and 9/11. People listen to his decalarations, read history and draw your own conclusions. I repeat, there's plenty of evidence that corroborates Dr. Pieczenik's claims. Connect the dots.
Finally, I'll leave at that for people to draw their own conclusions whatever they may be. I made my case.
User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby tomsax » Sun May 08, 2011 3:04 am

You didn't answer the question on what is the contrary evidence that would falsify your claim.

I didn't ask you just to repeat your evidence that falsify the US government claims. Their claims are indeed falsifiable. The question is what would falsify your claims. If nothing can, then you are basically admitting that there is no evidence to the contrary that could change your mind, which was Kelly's point (put much more concisely and effectively in a post above).

I'm not arguing about your internal logic but about how your beleifs could possibly be corrected by specific evidence to the contrary.

I am not asking you to beleive in the US claims particularly as it really isn't a big issue if you don't beleive them. I am just making a plea to you not to totally firewall yourself against contrary evidence and opinions in the way you think about the world. It's only by being able to test our ideas against evidence that we learn from our mistakes in life.
Tom
User avatar
Kelly
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3871
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:28 pm
Location: Lima, Peru
Contact:

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby Kelly » Sun May 08, 2011 5:13 pm

If every thing Josh says is true, then Dr Steve Pieczenik could be destroying lives, careers and even governments by talking. The question then, is if these people are so powerful that they could pull off 9/11,make the world believe in a non-existent Al Qaida and keep Osama bin laden alive (even though dead) for 10 years, why can't they (or won't they) shut up Pieczenik? I mean, the guy could be destroying everything the nefarious "they" have been working on for decades. The people who managed to pull off 9/11 and get away with it could surely cut the brake line in his car with out getting caught.
euroman
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Tarapoto

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby euroman » Sun May 08, 2011 6:14 pm

Kelly wrote:If every thing Josh says is true, then Dr Steve Pieczenik could be destroying lives, careers and even governments by talking. The question then, is if these people are so powerful that they could pull off 9/11,make the world believe in a non-existent Al Qaida and keep Osama bin laden alive (even though dead) for 10 years, why can't they (or won't they) shut up Pieczenik? I mean, the guy could be destroying everything the nefarious "they" have been working on for decades. The people who managed to pull off 9/11 and get away with it could surely cut the brake line in his car with out getting caught.


Who is Dr. Steve Pieczenik? Is it the real name of Dr. Ozz?
User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby tomsax » Mon May 09, 2011 4:31 pm

Kelly wrote:If every thing Josh says is true, then Dr Steve Pieczenik could be destroying lives, careers and even governments by talking. The question then, is if these people are so powerful that they could pull off 9/11,make the world believe in a non-existent Al Qaida and keep Osama bin laden alive (even though dead) for 10 years, why can't they (or won't they) shut up Pieczenik? I mean, the guy could be destroying everything the nefarious "they" have been working on for decades. The people who managed to pull off 9/11 and get away with it could surely cut the brake line in his car with out getting caught.


There's always an explanation if you want there to be, and if you have a bit of imagination. I would write my own elaborate explanation as an example but it isn't fair to JoshuS as he's said he won't post any more on this thread.

Apparently when the planet Mercury's orbit of the sun didn't follow a course dictated by Newtons Laws, scientist's invented another planet, somehow unseen, to explain why it was pulled out off course. If you really don't want your theories to be falsified then you can always find a way.
Tom
Comet

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby Comet » Mon May 09, 2011 9:16 pm

tomsax wrote:
JoshuS wrote:Pooper pooped long time ago. What evidence in the official story makes it proven to you that he had been alive and recently been killed? I'm not curious at all, but I ask anyway.


Did you try just answering my question first? Can you really not think of one piece of evidence that would falsify your assertion that he wasn't killed recently by the US forces, that he was killed around 10 years ago and that the US claims are a sham? Popper would argue that if your claim cannot be falsified then it can't be tested therefore we can't really trust it. The belief is more of act of faith, an idea that sits in a bubble with no chance of being modified or challenged by actual reality.

The importance of falsifiability is exactly because it is often very difficult to prove things. Of course I can't prove he was alive and was killed recently which is exactly why you found it easy to ask this question as a diversion to answering my question.

The interesting thing is you can't seem to think of one thing that you will accept would falsify your claims (though I would love to be corrected on that). I can however think of countless ways the US government claims could be easily falsified if they were indeed false. They have given a time, an exact address, an account of other people who were there who are still alive, some of them injured by the US forces themselves. There are neighbours, there are Al Queda followers who could easily claim and if true provide evidence that he was not killed recently and that he died further in the past.

Almost everyone will accept that and if it is proven false of course the US government will look like idiots. Like them or not the US government have given a very falsifiable account of what has happened. You on the other hand can't give one example of how your account could be proved wrong. You will always be able to make excuses for any evidence provided against you (or can you prove me wrong?).


OK now I understand..the only way something is true is if there is evidence that it isn´t true...now I know where I have gone wrong all my life.
Popper was a loon
and you missed out "man-made" climate change from your list of myths. :D
User avatar
tomsax
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby tomsax » Tue May 10, 2011 2:55 am

Comet wrote:OK now I understand..the only way something is true is if there is evidence that it isn´t true...now I know where I have gone wrong all my life.
Popper was a loon
and you missed out "man-made" climate change from your list of myths. :D


In fairness to Popper, that isn't what he was saying at all, and the rest can wait till another thread.
Tom
euroman
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Tarapoto

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby euroman » Tue May 10, 2011 6:25 pm

americorps wrote:I find it no different to believe the the government is only telling a lie than to believe everything they say.


I believe everythings what the government says...after drinking a whole bottle of 7 RAICES. :D
Ruud
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:40 pm
Location: Tarapoto

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby Ruud » Wed May 11, 2011 1:47 am

From this link http://www.caseyresearch.com/cwc/doug-casey-obama-killing-osama

Doug Casey on Obama Killing Osama
(Interviewed by Louis James, Editor, International Speculator)

L: Doug, we’re going to lose a lot of subscribers talking about the news everyone is all gaga about, but I don’t see how we can shirk our responsibility to do so… So, Obama’s ratings drop to their nadir, and lo and behold, he personally orders the execution of America’s Public Enemy #1. This is a man no one has seen for ten years, but whose alleged audio messages have long had many people doubting that he’s even still alive. And now the body has conveniently been buried at sea before anyone who is not directly under the president in the chain of command can see it. Does it make me a loony conspiracy theorist to find myself feeling that this is all too convenient for the Powers That Be?

Doug: Look, a thinking person has to question authority – at all times, on all issues. It’s a matter of principle, as well as prudence. I’ve said it before, and will say it again: 90% of everything in the media is bull. If it’s not a fabrication, it’s opinion disguised as fact. Or facts that are modified or twisted. Or there’s significant data left out. Often that’s not because of some conspiracy, but rather the pure incompetence of reporters and editors today. There aren’t any H.L. Menckens on the scene that I can think of. I read and listen to the news mainly for entertainment purposes, and to learn what other people seem to believe.

Do I think this is all a con job? Well, you’d think that after spending trillions of dollars, and killing hundreds of thousands of people, that finally, after ten years, they could catch up with Osama, who is supposed to be the mastermind of evil itself. Frankly, at this point, he couldn’t have been more than just a tired, sick old man. He would probably have died naturally in a few years anyway, if he hadn’t already died years ago.

But you’d think they could get their story straight. First he’s hiding behind a woman, using her as a shield as he returned fire. Then he’s unarmed. I’ve read he was killed with two shots to the head. It sounds like a mob hit.

L: What makes you most skeptical?

Doug: The whole thing stinks, from top to bottom. You’d think that if they knew where he was, they would have gone out of their way to take him alive – at almost any cost. Think of the information he would have had! But instead they seemed to go out of their way to kill him, which impresses me as incredibly stupid and counterproductive... Unless they don’t want him talking.

After all, Osama said several times that he had nothing to do with the events of 9/11. But Bush used him, and 9/11, as the casus belli for Afghanistan. It would have been interesting to know who Osama thought was actually behind 9/11.

Then, after killing him, they dump his body in the Arabian Sea, using the excuse that he had to be interred within 24 hours as a Muslim, and it wasn’t possible to bury him because they didn’t want to create a shrine. As if they go out of their way to bury every Muslim they kill within 24 hours… I suspect that, in fact, they leave most bodies as a treat for the dogs and the crows. We’ll now never know whose body that was. Or exactly how he was killed.

So now, in any event, all the physical evidence has been disposed of. It’s unclear to me if they also executed everyone else in the house – excuse me, “compound,” as any house government agents attack automatically becomes a compound – where they took him. I suspect everyone was executed. Witnesses are never convenient.

L: Do you think Osama has been dead for years, as some people claim?

Doug: It’s said he was always a sick man, in need of a dialysis machine. Maybe he has been dead for many years. But even if those in government believe he died years ago, they never claimed it as a fact, partially because they couldn’t present the body and prove it. And partially because it was convenient to have the devil still roaming the world – the better to keep the sheep frightened and huddling, looking for their shepherd to protect them.

Who knows why they wanted him to appear dead now? Maybe it’s just a political convenience for Obama. After all, Clinton apparently started bombing the Serbs to distract attention from his problems with Monica.

L: And Bush II lied to the world about Saddam Hussein having weapons of mass destruction when his party had an election to win – that was the excuse for going into Iraq.

Doug: It’s all very much like the movie Wag the Dog, with Dustin Hoffman and Robert DeNiro. At this late and thoroughly corrupt stage of the empire, art imitates life, life imitates art, and no one knows what reality is.

L: But the government says they have DNA tests to prove it was bin Laden. It’s proof!

Doug: The same government that claims to have killed him. But I have a question: Quis custodiet ipsos custodies – Who watches the watchers? I thought it was ironic that Putin of Russia – who’s undoubtedly put out quite a few orders for hits in his day – evidenced outrage at the way the U.S. government is trying to kill Gaddafi, now that it seems expedient. I have it here – Putin said: "Who permitted this, was there any trial? Who took on the right to execute this man, no matter who he is?"

And he’s right. I find it shocking that the U.S. government just takes it upon itself to kill people now, without even a show trial like Saddam got. Of course the government has always had professional killers in its employ – but it at least had the decency to deny their existence. Now it brags about them, and parades them. It’s always had secret prisons too – but now it’s quite overt about Gitmo and renditions and torture.

L: What really gets me is the laughing, dancing, and singing in the streets. I believe in self-defense and have no problem with the use of lethal force on murderers. I even understand the urge to celebrate a victory… But the combination of credulity and jubilation seems… frankly, rather sad and frightening. Oddly enough, I find myself almost agreeing with the Vatican, which came out with a statement saying that the death should prompt meditation, not celebration.

Doug: I understand Americans were jumping around Times Square as if it was V-J Day when it was announced. It’s sad, really. And very unseemly, and degraded, to celebrate a murder. They’re celebrating an extra-judicial murder performed by contract killers. That’s what SEAL Team 6, which apparently conducted this raid, does – like the Army’s Delta Force. They’re told to go somewhere and kill any person or persons their “superiors” say, and they just do it. If you wear a uniform, and work for a state, murder becomes quite acceptable, with no questions asked by anyone.

I definitely think there are people out there who need killing. But my view is that you should do it yourself and take responsibility for it, if you feel that strongly about it. But government officials are too degraded for that by any stretch. Even worse, perhaps, are the people who go and do it because they’re told to. Certainly, they merit a measure of respect. They are excellent physical specimens. They’re skilled in the black arts and they undoubtedly possess a lot of courage and sang-froid. But they’re not heroes. It’s odd that they’re considered heroes; both they and their employers should be brought up on war-crime charges. I expect the men among them who are decent realize that they’re acting unethically, quit after a while, and suffer nightmares and post-traumatic stress disorder for many years after. The ones who stay in it are simply dangerous sociopaths, like Mafia hit men.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe Osama is dead – whenever he died. And I’m glad he’s dead. I don’t like the things he believed in, especially his especially puritanical version of Islam. But this is not the way these things should be handled. At least not by a supposedly free country.

L: Well, we don’t need to draw this conversation out – the point is made, whether people agree or not. I just hope thinking people will do exactly that: think.

Doug: One thing they should think about is that Osama didn’t actually present – or certainly shouldn’t have presented – a risk to the U.S. You’ll recall that he said he was only up in arms for three reasons: 1) the U.S. had its troops in Muslim lands; 2) the U.S. was supporting the stooges running those countries; and 3) the U.S. was supporting Israel, which he deemed an oppressor of the Palestinians. If the U.S. desisted from those things, he was happy to leave it alone, in the belief it would necessarily self-destruct.

As far as I’m concerned, his three demands are quite just and reasonable. As for Israel, I wish those people well – as I do the Palestinians. But it’s not my business, and it’s certainly not that of the U.S. government. If Jews want to support Israel, or Muslims Palestine, for whatever reasons, that’s their business too.

In any event, killing bin Laden will not solve the so-called terror problem. I believe Al Qaeda is only a few hundred people, at best. But largely because of the War on Terror, it’s metastasized into scores of little organizations, and probably hundreds of lone wolves. Announcing his death, followed by the wild and pointless jubilation of Americans will likely only reinvigorate these people.
renodante
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: miraflores

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby renodante » Tue May 31, 2011 9:25 pm

JoshuS wrote:Timely and interesting PR from the US Government...and how interesting, no body, quickly shot in the head, and rapidly disposed of out in the sea. One has to be a fool to believe such propaganda.


well, you know how those shape shifting reptillians are.....
renodante
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: miraflores

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby renodante » Tue May 31, 2011 9:27 pm

americorps wrote:There is so much evidence proving this happened, I can not imagine the thought process of conspirocy theorist and denailist that just pretend the evedince does not exist.



because they are like religious zealots. they WANT to believe what they want to believe, and once they believe what they believe, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will convince them otherwise. you can bring in 10,000 engineers from around the world to show them how the towers could fall the way they did and they'd cover their ears while chanting "LALALA 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!" It's the same for Bin Laden, you can't win, there's NOTHING they could have done with his body that would convince conspiracy nutters.
User avatar
JoshuS
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:40 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby JoshuS » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:28 am

renodante wrote:
americorps wrote:There is so much evidence proving this happened, I can not imagine the thought process of conspirocy theorist and denailist that just pretend the evedince does not exist.



because they are like religious zealots. they WANT to believe what they want to believe, and once they believe what they believe, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will convince them otherwise. you can bring in 10,000 engineers from around the world to show them how the towers could fall the way they did and they'd cover their ears while chanting "LALALA 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!" It's the same for Bin Laden, you can't win, there's NOTHING they could have done with his body that would convince conspiracy nutters.


Because they are like religious zealots, they WANT to believe their government blindly, badly, without questioning, without critical thinking and common sense. Most are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on their government's noble lie, that they will fight to protect it. And when they believe whatever their government tells them to believe, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that will convince them otherwise. You can bring in 10,000 engineers from around the world to show them how the way towers collapse and all the evidence contradicts, even scientifically what the official reports says...even whistleblowers, insiders and historical facts, yet they'd cover their ears while chanting "LALALA the official 9/11story is true!!!" It's the same for Bin Laden, you can't win, there's NOTHING you can do that they won't believe the official story, doesn't matter how distorted and nonsensical it is. Critical thinking ? Whistler blowers? Insiders? Historical facts? Nuuuh! What I read on the news and what they tell me it's the truth, period.
User avatar
americorps
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:16 pm
Location: Lima

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby americorps » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:42 am

Except what you say is not true.

I know of no one who believes the government blindly, but as I said before, to assume they are only telling lies is just as blind as to assume they are only telling the truth.

As is the reality in most of the world, most of the time, the truth is somewhere between the 2 extremes, and the extremists, if not wrong, are generally far from correct.
renodante
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: miraflores

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby renodante » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:48 pm

Because they are like religious zealots, they WANT to believe their government blindly


you think i trust the U.S government? hilarious. i'm just a fan of reality, even when reality isn't as sexy as fantasy.
renodante
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: miraflores

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby renodante » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:55 pm

but what do i know, i'm just a Zionist shill sipping on my flouride water inhaling chem trails.
User avatar
Polaron
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:56 pm
Location: Lima
Contact:

Re: Osama Bin Laden Dead.

Postby Polaron » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:48 pm

Is Osama bin Laden still dead?

Seriously, there has been some fancy footwork done with regard to that man. I don't know what to believe, except that I do not believe he was responsible for the attacks of September 11. That is not to say he isn't or wasn't a dangerous, evil man. We should know; we armed him with our finest weapons to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.
Professional, bilingual writer at your service.

Return to “Expat Conversations”

cron

Login  •  Register