Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby captsirl » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:37 pm

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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby Jimmy111 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:16 pm

captsirl wrote:To whom it concerns
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If you are talking about the Fire department then I agree 120% :D
That is the way it should be.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby craig » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:49 pm

tomsax wrote:I guess I need to learn more about how bonds work and their relationship with base rates.

There is nothing complicated about it.

Suppose you have a bond which will pay you 1000 soles in one year.

If you buy it for 950 soles then you will, in effect, receive 50 soles interest on 950 soles. That is an interest rate of (50/950 = 0.0526) 5.26% pa.

If you buy it for 900 soles then you will, in effect, receive 100 soles interest on 900 soles. That is an interest rate of (100/900 = 0.1111) 11.11% pa.

The lower the price of the bond the higher the interest rate and vice versa.

tomsax wrote:Why do they have a high interest target rate?

If you give a bureaucrat the power to meddle (without necessity to bear any of the consequences of their actions) then they will meddle. There does not need to be any reason for doing so. The only thing they can do by selling bonds is to increase the interest rate; they cannot decrease them (that way). Therefore, when they exercise their perogative to issue bonds they increase interest rates. There is no reason to want to do that (on the contrary, it is harmful to the Peruvian economy). It is just what happens when they exercise the power given to them.

As to why they choose the particular interest rate targets they do ... there is no reason for that either except ignorance, arrogance, idleness and irresponsibility. [Recall that FDR set the price of gold by picking lucky numbers at random when he woke up in the morning.]

tomsax wrote:To control price inflation or is there some other reason?

There is no necessary connection between interest rates and inflation as such. However, the actions they take to affect one may also affect the other.
Last edited by craig on Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby mtwilson » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:18 pm

Well it's been awhile since I looked at this thread and boy oh boy did this thing take off.

I would like to bring things back into focus a bit with regard to the topic of fire fighters struggling, as I believe I may have some expertise in this area. I started out as a volunteer fire fighter when I was 19 years old and, as I mentioned before, helping the Peruvian volunteer bomberos is what brought me to Peru in the first place. I was in charge of that project for five years until we realized that we were unable to get the equipment and supplies we were bringing out to stations that really needed it because of corruption at the top.

Since I spent 30 years in the fire service in the US, let me speak a little about what burns and what does not. Whoever believes that simply because a building is made out of concrete will not burn has never seen it happen, and that is not because it doesn't occur. While the building itself may not burn (at least not at first, concrete spalls and crumbles when exposed to heat) the contents do and if you take a moment to look around any mixed occupancy neighborhood in urban Lima, even if it's primarily built out of concrete, you will find a mind boggling mixture of combustibles waiting to explode.

The fire in Peru that caught our attention in the States was in a mixed residential/warehousing zone in Lima that claimed 300 lives. 300! Including fire fighters. I have seen numerous examples of liquor stores, next to auto mechanics, next to apartments, next to crowded restaurants, next to... you get my point, all over Lima. If you don't think these are hazards that will burn and burn big, then you need to talk to some fire fighters who have fought fires like that. I have and I have spoken personally with the Lima bomberos themselves who have told me of the difficulty they have in responding to and combating these blazes.

You see, there is no effective water supply in Lima. The fire hydrants, if they work at all, are frequently so low in pressure that they cannot supply a single pumper. Water has to be trucked in on tenders to supply the fire fighters with the water they need to fight a fire. Plus, training is hit and miss (because volunteers have other jobs and funding is scarce), there is turnover to contend with within the ranks, there is little or no pre-planning which means the fire departments don't even know what specific hazards are within their response zones until they are facing them at 2:00 am and they're on fire. This is not the fault of the fire fighters. I found the bomberos here to be some of the smartest and most capable people I have ever met in the fire service and I support them whole heartedly. But they ARE struggling. Their equipment is ancient or nonexistent, their stations are falling apart, it's a freakin' mess.

And for those of you who think that the private sector is going to fix this I can tell you what has happened when they have tried in other places. The scheme that is usually attempted is what they did early-on in the US. A subscription or insurance service with competing fire departments who sell their services to those who can pay. In the old days they used to identify the buildings that were covered by the subscription with a plack placed on a promenant wall outside the building and if you had that, and it was valid, the fire fighters went to work. If not, too bad for you.

Plus, that was before they had municipal water systems that are essential to modern fire suppression today. What private company will take on the maintenance of the hydrant systems here? The bottom line is that even if good responsible citizens pay for their subscriptions or whatever, there will be those who will not and who will load their buildings up with all kinds of flammable and dangerous stuff and when it goes up in flames so does the neighborhood.

Then there is all of the other stuff that fire fighters do, like hazardous materials responses, emergency medical services (paramedics), rescue, etc. In a city of 9 million people it is pretty unreasonable, in my opinion, to sit by and hope some huge disaster doesn't happen that will completely overwhelm the volunteer services that are doing all they can to protect human life in Lima. And how dare we ask them to do this without full community support?

Before you condemn me as some government worker who spent his whole life feeding at the public udder, look at my other posts and you will see that I am as anti big government as anyone here (well almost ;). But when a community gets to a certain size, volunteerism just wont cut it. Besides, decent emergency services is good for the economy and investment, and it sure as hell isn't going to break the budget of the country to provide an essential service like this. In fact that is the only kind of service government should be expected to provide.

Think of it this way, do you really think that it's OK to have this level of emergency service delivery when the next big earthquake hits and half of the city is on fire? And do you really think some private company with a profit motive is going to be able to cover this? I wouldn't bet my life on it, nor yours either, for that matter.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby mtwilson » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:19 pm

BTW, I did enjoy the discussion about the Peruvian economy. I learned a few things and I like doing that. Thanks all!
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby tomsax » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:33 pm

craig wrote:tomsax wrote:
I guess I need to learn more about how bonds work and their relationship with base rates.
There is nothing complicated about it.

Suppose you have a bond which will pay you 1000 soles in one year.

If you buy it for 950 soles then you will, in effect, receive 50 soles interest on 950 soles. That is an interest rate of (50/950 = 0.0526) 5.26% pa.

If you buy it for 900 soles then you will, in effect, receive 100 soles interest on 900 soles. That is an interest rate of (100/900 = 0.1111) 11.11% pa.


Thank you, I understand that now. Perhaps there is no relationship to base rates. When you talked about a target interest rate I assumed this was the base rate.

Anyway, so the only reason to sell bonds in Soles is to raise bond interest rates but the only reason to raise interest rates is because they can do so. I'm not sure if its me or the world that is confused.

I guess I will just let people talk about firefighters...
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby rama0929 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:38 pm

mtwilson wrote:Well it's been awhile since I looked at this thread and boy oh boy did this thing take off.

And for those of you who think that the private sector is going to fix this I can tell you what has happened when they have tried in other places. The scheme that is usually attempted is what they did early-on in the US. A subscription or insurance service with competing fire departments who sell their services to those who can pay. In the old days they used to identify the buildings that were covered by the subscription with a plack placed on a promenant wall outside the building and if you had that, and it was valid, the fire fighters went to work. If not, too bad for you.


Still goes on in some rural areas...

Excellent post.

I still think no one will do anything until an orphanage burns down a convent. Hopefully, they'll prove me wrong.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby tomsax » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:28 am

rama0929 wrote:I still think no one will do anything until an orphanage burns down a convent. Hopefully, they'll prove me wrong.


Or another fire in a one of the night clubs frequented by the wealthy. Anyone remember the fire of 2002?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2140786.stm

I remember billboards paid for by families who had lost their loved ones after that fire with the teenagers photos on them and demands that those responsible be made accountable. I doubt if the same campaign would have been made for the same number of orphans killed but perhaps I'm too cynical.

I think Defensa Civil has got a lot more difficult to satisfy regarding emergency exit requirements, signposting and emergency lighting. The problem is so many businesses ignore these requirements with impunity anyway.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby rama0929 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:43 am

tomsax wrote:
rama0929 wrote:I still think no one will do anything until an orphanage burns down a convent. Hopefully, they'll prove me wrong.


Or another fire in a one of the night clubs frequented by the wealthy. Anyone remember the fire of 2002?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2140786.stm

I remember billboards paid for by families who had lost their loved ones after that fire with the teenagers photos on them and demands that those responsible be made accountable. I doubt if the same campaign would have been made for the same number of orphans killed but perhaps I'm too cynical.


Of course you could. It's harder to get sympathy for the "wealthy" you know it'll be spun as "they deserve it" or some other nonsensical line of thinking

I think Defensa Civil has got a lot more difficult to satisfy regarding emergency exit requirements, signposting and emergency lighting. The problem is so many businesses ignore these requirements with impunity anyway.


Of course they do. They have no reason to comply. Who's going to fine/cite them? What's their incentive?
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby Jimmy111 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:20 am

Allen mentioned that Peru has a surplus or something like 20 billion dollars and potential investments of 50 million dollars.
Just wanted to say that that is chump change. For an economy the size of a country it is almost nothing.
For example. Lets take guns.. Somthing that is frownd upon by many in the states so the industrial output should be low. Last year there was 20 billion dollars in civilian guns sold in the united states. That is just guns. The government received about 1 billion in Federal taxes and another 2 billion in state taxes of all sorts.and managed to spend 1.5 billion just in direcct budget regulating guns.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby craig » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:22 pm

Jimmy111 wrote:Allen mentioned that Peru has a surplus or something like 20 billion dollars and potential investments of 50 million dollars.
Just wanted to say that that is chump change.
:?
How does Peru compare with the US?

Code: Select all

                             Peru                       US
GDP                       $153 Billion              $15,319 Billion      100X
GDP per capita              $10,000                    $48,000             5X
Public Debt                 15% GDP                    98% GDP
Revenues                    24% GDP                    15% GDP
Expenses                    26% GDP                    24% GDP
Reserves                    32% GDP                   0.9% GDP

(Figures taken from Wikipedia.)

I would certainly prefer that Peru's revenues and expenses were much lower. However, Peru's reserves are just a wee bit larger than those of the US. If anything, in comparison, the reserves of the US are ludicrous "chump change".
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby VicManu » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:17 pm

It's funny most of the data and the information here is false.
First of all I agree with all of You that the firefighter department should be better equipped and trained. I agree, it's so difficult for them to have acces to a water source most of the times they need it.

The huge fire that killed almost 400 people in 2002 happened in Mesa redonda besides the central market in downtown. I remember it happened before christmas 2002, The place was packed there were vendors stalls placed on the roads and sidewalks blocking the acces of cars . Most of them were selling fireworks. I remembered it happened in the afternoon when most of them were carrying their stuff to the storages located in the galleries. suddenly a stall was burning also the firework was burning and it sounded like gunshots , someone warned the people in the galleries that a runsacking was happening and most of them shut the gates of their storages with them inside. The firefighters were close to the place but their trucks couldn't acces to the place because the roads were blocked by the stalls and by the chaotic electricity wires , almost all the stalls were stealing power from the electrical posts.

the expectation of investments is 50 thousand of million dollars ( 50 billions ).
Peru was paying the external debt for long time following el consenso de washington of the 90's. That's why now the debt is only 15% of the GDP, but during the 80's and the 90's it would be more than 100 %.

Peru is offering bonds to the internationasl markets remember there are short term and long term bonds, and now the interest rate of the peruvian bonds are for low interests because in 2010 Fitch , Moody's and Standard and Poors gave to Peru the investment credit rating. The next 5 years peruvian governement has to pay the amount of 1.5 billion dollars of bond interests while Brazil has to pay 930 billions Colmbia has to pay 9,8 billions and chile 5.5 billions.
this is part of an article about Peru's offering of bonds:
"Issuance of Peruvian global bonds reached USD 6.4bn in 2010. The government of Peru issued USD 2.5bn in global bonds, including PEN 4.2bn (USD 1.5 bn) of Peruvian new sol denominated bonds due 2020 and USD 1bn of 40-year sovereign bonds. Peruvian corporates sold USD 3.9bn of eurobonds in international debt capital market in 2010.
During the first three quarters of 2011 flow of global bonds from Peru totaled USD 1.435bn."

source: http://www.cbonds.info/em/eng/pages/Peru-bond

The reserves of Peru now are almost 60 billion dollars.
And the External public debt is only 15% of the GDP. So it isn't true that the peruvian economy is an economy of debt. Check your data before You'll get a conclusion.
last year the external investment was 7,8 billion dollars, the remittance of the peruvians who emigrated was about 2 billion dollars the ammount for exportation was about 45 billion dollars.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby chi chi » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:16 am

VicManu wrote:First of all I agree with all of You that the firefighter department should be better equipped and trained. I agree, it's so difficult for them to have acces to a water source most of the times they need it.


I remember that 2 years ago, there was a fire in a field beside the condomnium I lived in, in Tarapoto.

The hydrants didn't have water, so they had to pump water out of the swimming pool.

The vehicles they drove were very small and old. What struck me was that most fire fighters were woman.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby Jimmy111 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:02 pm

VicManu wrote:It's funny most of the data and the information here is false.
First of all I agree with all of You that the firefighter department should be better equipped and trained. I agree, it's so difficult for them to have acces to a water source most of the times they need it.

The huge fire that killed almost 400 people in 2002 happened in Mesa redonda besides the central market in downtown. I remember it happened before christmas 2002, The place was packed there were vendors stalls placed on the roads and sidewalks blocking the acces of cars . Most of them were selling fireworks. I remembered it happened in the afternoon when most of them were carrying their stuff to the storages located in the galleries. suddenly a stall was burning also the firework was burning and it sounded like gunshots , someone warned the people in the galleries that a runsacking was happening and most of them shut the gates of their storages with them inside. The firefighters were close to the place but their trucks couldn't acces to the place because the roads were blocked by the stalls and by the chaotic electricity wires , almost all the stalls were stealing power from the electrical posts.

the expectation of investments is 50 thousand of million dollars ( 50 billions ).
Peru was paying the external debt for long time following el consenso de washington of the 90's. That's why now the debt is only 15% of the GDP, but during the 80's and the 90's it would be more than 100 %.

Peru is offering bonds to the internationasl markets remember there are short term and long term bonds, and now the interest rate of the peruvian bonds are for low interests because in 2010 Fitch , Moody's and Standard and Poors gave to Peru the investment credit rating. The next 5 years peruvian governement has to pay the amount of 1.5 billion dollars of bond interests while Brazil has to pay 930 billions Colmbia has to pay 9,8 billions and chile 5.5 billions.
this is part of an article about Peru's offering of bonds:
"Issuance of Peruvian global bonds reached USD 6.4bn in 2010. The government of Peru issued USD 2.5bn in global bonds, including PEN 4.2bn (USD 1.5 bn) of Peruvian new sol denominated bonds due 2020 and USD 1bn of 40-year sovereign bonds. Peruvian corporates sold USD 3.9bn of eurobonds in international debt capital market in 2010.
During the first three quarters of 2011 flow of global bonds from Peru totaled USD 1.435bn."

source: http://www.cbonds.info/em/eng/pages/Peru-bond

The reserves of Peru now are almost 60 billion dollars.
And the External public debt is only 15% of the GDP. So it isn't true that the peruvian economy is an economy of debt. Check your data before You'll get a conclusion.
last year the external investment was 7,8 billion dollars, the remittance of the peruvians who emigrated was about 2 billion dollars the ammount for exportation was about 45 billion dollars.


Again I ask, where did the money come from to build the economy, build all the new buildings, fix all the roads and the canals in the Andes? Did it come from the great Peruvian economy? Peru has no economy. As you said 60 or so billion. It is nothing. What is paying for all these improvements??
Loans. Debt. Not the profit from the Peruvian Economy because there is no economy.
Peruvians have a huge amount of debt. And no way to pay it off. Many have been bamboozled into buying apartments in the last 10 years that they will be paying for for the rest of their lives. The interest rates are high and in most cases the apartments are bought by multi generations of families. All sharing the debt. This means that the apartments cannot be used as collateral by a single person. Most of the profit from these buildings is taken out of the country. Some is reinvested but just as soon as the market reaches saturation the investors will pull out and go somewhere else. Instant stalled economy.
Also take into account that most of the new buildings will probably fall over in the next earthquake. Which is already late. The later it comes the bigger it will be.
15 years ago in peru almost no one had any debt. Today, everyone is in debt.
The situation like I said before is simmilar to Californias in 2005. California had so much extra cash it gave it back to the people. One year later California found itself seriously in debt because the people had reached their credit limit with all the new over priced housing, easy credit cards, easy consumer debt. We all know what is happening in California today.
Just like peru today.
The economy has to be based on profit to survive. Not debt as it is today. The economy is using other peoples money . Not the peoples of Peru.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby chi chi » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:02 am

The whole economic crisis is the fault of the banks.
Banks use people their money to pay for their lavish lifestyles.

Bank managers get million euro bonuses every year. Even when the banks lose so much money. When they get fired they get millions too.
I don't understand how banks can afford those big fancy buildings. All their staff gets luxury company cars.
Bank staff work less hours than most people.

And when all their customers money is wasted, banks get taxpayers money from the government.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby VicManu » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:39 pm

Jimmy111 wrote:Again I ask, where did the money come from to build the economy, build all the new buildings, fix all the roads and the canals in the Andes? Did it come from the great Peruvian economy? Peru has no economy. As you said 60 or so billion. It is nothing. What is paying for all these improvements??
Loans. Debt. Not the profit from the Peruvian Economy because there is no economy.
Peruvians have a huge amount of debt. And no way to pay it off. Many have been bamboozled into buying apartments in the last 10 years that they will be paying for for the rest of their lives. The interest rates are high and in most cases the apartments are bought by multi generations of families. All sharing the debt. This means that the apartments cannot be used as collateral by a single person. Most of the profit from these buildings is taken out of the country. Some is reinvested but just as soon as the market reaches saturation the investors will pull out and go somewhere else. Instant stalled economy.
Also take into account that most of the new buildings will probably fall over in the next earthquake. Which is already late. The later it comes the bigger it will be.
15 years ago in peru almost no one had any debt. Today, everyone is in debt.
The situation like I said before is simmilar to Californias in 2005. California had so much extra cash it gave it back to the people. One year later California found itself seriously in debt because the people had reached their credit limit with all the new over priced housing, easy credit cards, easy consumer debt. We all know what is happening in California today.
Just like peru today.
The economy has to be based on profit to survive. Not debt as it is today. The economy is using other peoples money . Not the peoples of Peru.
.


I'm sorry if I couldn't answer your questions and state my point of view clearly. i'm not that proficient in english to start a debate because I have a lot of limitations. But I'll try to explain what I think about your point of view using official and international data.
I hope You can show us your sources to base your thoughts . Your opinion for me seem to be based in prejudices and a menonite economic theory.

I agree 60 billion dollars isn't an important ammount if You compare it with the finances of your own country. But remember Peru is called for many an underdeveloped country and for others an emergent country . I'm not going to criticize how your leaders predated your nature and used the military power to develop your country and made the international trading exchange uneven and unfair. But take a look of
the size of our population Peru has 30 million of people and U.S.A. 312 million of people and the size of our territories? Peru 1million 285 thousand square kilometers and U.S.A. has 9 million 830 thousand square kilomters. There are huge differences in the natural resources contained in both countries and huge differences in the development of the industry and technology.

So much better if you just compare Peru 2012 to Peru 2002. The GDP have been tripled in 10 years. The GDP per capita is more than 2 times it was ten years ago. The exportation of Peru in 2003 was
8 thousand 876 millions 59 u.s$ F.O.B. the exportation of Peru in 2011 was 45 thousand 726 million u.s.$ F.O.B.. Exports of 2011 grew 28.5% compared oof 2010 exports. in 2004 were exported 4,650 different products in 2011 were exported about 23,500 different products getting more diversification of peruvian production for exportation.

The growth of the GDP were the last 4 years
2008 9.8% 2009 0.9% 2010 8.8% 2011 6.9%
the inflation of the last 4 years
2008 5,8% 2009 2.9% 20010 1.5% 2011 4.7 %
the unemployment rate the last 4 years
2008 2009 2010 2011
8.4% 8.6% 8% 7.5%
the public debt of the last 5 years
2007 2008 2009 2010 2011*
30.9% 25.7% 26.6% 24.3% 22.5%
the public deficit of the last 5 years
2007 2008 2009 2010 2011**
3.2% 2.2% -2.1% -0.8% -0.1%
http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-country-r ... z1t0ZgudSz

Laborforce of Peru is almost 16 million
55 % men and 45 % women.
73.8% urban, 26.2% rural
http://www.tvperu.gob.pe/noticias/econo ... sonas.html

" las exportaciones per cápita durante el 2010 fueron de US$ 1.534 millones, superando los US$ 1.206 registrados en el 2006 y logrando un amplio avance si lo comparamos con los US$ 266.000 del 2001".

"In 2010 Services account for 53% of Peruvian gross domestic product, followed by manufacturing (22.3%), extractive industries (15%), and taxes (9.7%)". source : wikipedia.

In regard of your economic theories. I guess you have to read again the Theory of values Adam smith David ricardo and Hayek ( not salma )If You think that only agriculture, fishing, and mining can create value.
Check the concepts of current ratio = current assets /current liabilities, and external debt sustainability for the countries So if an enterprise get a loan in order to invest in a profitable bussines that could make possible to be able to pay your debt and reinvest in order to increase your participation in the market getting more profits .
Check how savings could be a major engine of the economy growth, check how services like construction could extend national industries like cement, metal mechanic, glass , steel industries, marble and ceramic factories. for example and how the growth of those industries would provide liquid cash to invest in technology to increase their productivity. How Tourism have increased the last 10 years what I remember is in 2004 the international tourism was about 850 thousand people coming to Peru, in 2011 2 milllion 600 thousand tourists. That's why a lot of Hotels of different levels and rates have been opened in Peru the last years and restaurants increasing the modern agriculture production and and spreading a little the economic growth amongst many of the poor farmers. Domestic demand wil increase the factors of production.

Be honest if you think that drug money laundering was the main reason to the increase in housing.
seems like it's high by not really the main reason to the growth of our non existent economy as you think.
"Peru’s financial intelligence unit (FIU)
estimates approximately $3 billion in illicit proceeds moves
through the Peruvian financial sector each year, accounting for
approximately two percent of Peru’s gross domestic product."
http://www.knowyourcountry.com/peru1111.html

Prices of metal minerals are already decreasing also the metal minerals exports are decreasing but remember Peru is not venezuela. Our mineral production is diverse . Peru has a polimetallic production. 2nd in the world of cupper export 2nd of silver exports second of lead exports 6th of gold and bauxita, molibdeno etc. We export natural gas and our reserves are the same ammount of Brazil's reserves.
The first three months of 2012 our exports grew 10.7% in comparison to 2011 the mineral metal exports decreased but manufacture, agriculture, and service exports grew.

About The internal non performing loans or default rate of loans Peru has the lower rates of latin America
" La Asbanc informó que el ratio de morosidad de la banca privada en el país fue de 1,62% al cierre de marzo, superior en 0,02 puntos porcentuales respecto a febrero pasado y en 0,11 puntos en comparación con marzo del 2011.
Los últimos reportes sitúan a la morosidad de Chile, México, Colombia, Ecuador y Bolivia en niveles de 2,58%, 2,47%, 2,80%, 2,84% y 1,72%, respectivamente"
http://elcomercio.pe/economia/1405176/n ... s-region_1

In regard of the Foreign direct investments the total stock of foreign external investmnet is 22 thousand million dollars, and about 83 % is long term investment.
http://www.proinversion.gob.pe/0/0/modu ... 0&JER=1537

So if you trust this data You'll see we have an economy growing by legal factors not hidden and illegal money ( at least not the main source ) is moving the peruvian economy.
Last edited by VicManu on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
richiecry
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby richiecry » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:08 am

VICMANU-----AWESOME post. Your English is fine and the post is very well written. You make your point and back it up brilliantly. There is definately drug money in Peru's system....both flowing internally and externally...but it is not affecting the economy nearly as much as Jimmy thinks. The stats you cite for various other indications of growth are clear evidence of this. Compared to most "Western" countries, Peru is a country to be envious of as it is extremely wealthy resource wise and has been diversifying it's economy steadily over the last few years. Peru needs to continue with diversification as well as strengthening their institutions/reducing corruption. I am looking forward to moving there next year!
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tomsax
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby tomsax » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:19 am

Agreed. If I could put my point across in a post in Spanish half as well as Vicmanu I would be very pleased with myself.

I also like the fact that he has obviously spent time researching his response and has then articulated it without resorting to the easy option of so many of us by JUST pasting links (I know I've done it myself). This actually shows that he understands the arguments and can articulate them in his own words. I sometimes ask myself if those posting links on this forum have actaully understood their content as well as just trying to use them to score points.
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Re: Firefighters struggle as country’s economy booms

Postby falconagain » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:26 pm

My main problem is where are the jobs that sustain this economy.
All the houses that are sold have mortgages that assume payments
for 30 years. If a great percentage of the houses have been bought
by flippers then there is no wealth but a drain. If the majority of
shares bought from mining companies are owned by foreign citizens
then the growth or profit will go to their countries not Peru.

Just this week El Comercio published the news about the continuing
growth which was met with scorn by the general population.
Everybody in the country is asking, If we are so rich, why do we
have food inflation, why am I being paid the same salary as 5
years ago, why if there is so much money it takes me 5 hours
or more to go from one side of the city to the other.
Why the gas keeps going up if we have our own reserves?
Still in the fantasy land of the media El Peru avanza, where
We do not know.

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