Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:24 pm

In regards to some poor, the American was saying that if you work only
2 hours a day (40 hours in 4 weeks) do not expect to be the equal of
a person that works 8 hours a day (160 hours in 4 weeks), he noted
carefully in his diary that most of people wanted to remain poor
and treated him with contempt when he asked them work more
ours for their own benefit. At the end when the people that logged
more hours and saved money bought the controlling interest within
the cooperative. The losers said that capitalism is not democratic
and fair. The american was puzzled. How can they expect to be
rewarded for not working and think that life is unfair when they
were their own architects of their bankruptcy.

About the statement that : "involved in criminal activities or they are
good liars or stafadores", it is the same all over the world. Otherwise
how do you think that the current bubbles last longer than they should
any bubble like the realstate bubble that we have is sustained mainly
by the money laundering of criminals because they are the ones that
can afford such inflated prices. But this is a moral problem of every
society. It is an issue of Personal Corruption. People look the other
way within their communities in order to make a profit. Make this
People the equals of Hitler, Mussolini and other criminals. At the
end most of this people end up with an axe on top of them and
then they start protesting like the one percent.

Now there is few rich people in Peru that have wealth that does not
come from drugs but they are a minority. Social mobility is still heavily
restricted. Lets see what will happen in the next 4 years, maybe things
change for the best or we go forward towards hell like other countries.


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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby rama0929 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:45 pm

americorps wrote:
Drake wrote:
In Belgium, the N-word is almost the same in writing and pronunciation as in the US but it isn't racist at all.

We are not in Belgium friend, we are in Peru now.
it depends on the tone of course. gringo can be a term of endearment, a neutral description, or a slur. like cholo.

Exactly, sometimes Peruvians think that I don´t understand spanish and say things they should have left unsaid. What I have noticed is that jeleasy is rooted very strong in this society and that makes people act muy tonto. Also everyone is very gossip here. Like I said most of the people are very friendly but sometimes I cannot stop thinking if they have some hidden motives for this friendliness.


With all due respect, one must ask how much of that is Peru and how much might be you?


I've experienced the chismes as well. Seems people gossip as if it were their job down there. I've seen it at a higher level than I have in the states.

I don't know if it's jealousy or not, but I do find it amusing.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby chi chi » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:28 pm

falconagain wrote:In regards to some poor, the American was saying that if you work only
2 hours a day (40 hours in 4 weeks) do not expect to be the equal of
a person that works 8 hours a day (160 hours in 4 weeks), he noted
carefully in his diary that most of people wanted to remain poor
and treated him with contempt when he asked them work more
ours for their own benefit.


The people must have thought that he was not going to pay them after work. It happens so many times that people work and get less paid than promised or nothing at all.

If an out of towner like the American comes and promises people that they can make a lot of money then the people in that town will think: ¨we live her all our life and know that no money can be made here´

The must have thougth that he's a dumb gringo who's going to try something that's impossible and going to leave penniless in a few weeks or they must have thought that he's an estafador who want to take advantage of the people.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:20 pm

chi chi wrote:
falconagain wrote:In regards to some poor, the American was saying that if you work only
2 hours a day (40 hours in 4 weeks) do not expect to be the equal of
a person that works 8 hours a day (160 hours in 4 weeks), he noted
carefully in his diary that most of people wanted to remain poor
and treated him with contempt when he asked them work more
ours for their own benefit.


The people must have thought that he was not going to pay them after work. It happens so many times that people work and get less paid than promised or nothing at all.

If an out of towner like the American comes and promises people that they can make a lot of money then the people in that town will think: ¨we live her all our life and know that no money can be made here´

The must have thougth that he's a dumb gringo who's going to try something that's impossible and going to leave penniless in a few weeks or they must have thought that he's an estafador who want to take advantage of the people.



Chi Chi the peace corps are an international organization with several international successful projects
and almost no complaints from anybody. Peruvians that scam Peruvians is common. But International
Organization that are not for profit usually comply with what they offer. Besides that the project was
a basic farming coop that started with local consumption and then with trade if there is an excess
production to be sold. The people that failed on this project are the same kind of people that abuses
free credit within any society. They are simply parasites with no justification or morals.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby rama0929 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:57 pm

chi chi wrote:
The must have thougth that he's a dumb gringo who's going to try something that's impossible and going to leave penniless in a few weeks or they must have thought that he's an estafador who want to take advantage of the people.


Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If that's the case, I may as well exploit them and benefit. If they want to play both sides of the coin, so can I 8)

"If God didn't want them sheared, he would not have made them sheep” - Calvera
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Kelly » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:52 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and move this post over to News and Views - it's really more of an "Opinion/Discussion" thread than an information thread, so I think it's more suited to that section.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby renodante » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:47 pm

What I have noticed is that jeleasy is rooted very strong in this society


It's HUGE

i've never really felt i was treated better than peruvians here. but there's usually that strange mix of adoration/fascination and contempt/jealousy.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby stuart » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:42 pm

As a foreigner and a Peruvian, I have to admit that I treat myself much better than I treat others.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby chi chi » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:27 pm

renodante wrote:
What I have noticed is that jeleasy is rooted very strong in this society


It's HUGE

i've never really felt i was treated better than peruvians here. but there's usually that strange mix of adoration/fascination and contempt/jealousy.


I thinks that in many places like that.

But foreigners get respected her and often have advantages.

Especially, when it comes to renting a flat. Peruvians prefer to rent out their flat to foreigners.
You often see ads with ''solo extranjeros'' or ''extranjeros preferido''.

In Europe, it's the contrary. Many (probably most) andlords prefer NOTto rent out to foreigners. And in some countries you could get fined if you put rental ads like ''only locals'' or ''no foreigners''.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby tomsax » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:39 pm

renodante wrote:i've never really felt i was treated better than peruvians here. but there's usually that strange mix of adoration/fascination and contempt/jealousy.


I did once hear a Peruvian talking about me after I took my kit off at the beach. "Este gringo se parece como un pollo desplumado!". It wasn't so much comtempt as mild pity!
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Drake » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:42 pm

Googd conversation here. I will give you few examples.
In the same building where I live there is an hairstore downstairs. My wifes brother had a lockstore next to the hairstore. There is a one woman who owns these retails. First she told my wifes brother that he has to leave because she needs the space. Then she was making a huge renovation for the store and at the same time she was being friendly towards the woman who had a hairstore in the neighbour store. She was asking questions and hanging around there almost every day. Then she announced that she is going to open a hairstore of her own and when she opened her doors she cut the electricity of the neighbourstore and told this woman to leave. All of this started to happen when her daughter married a lawyer who apparently paid the renovacion of the store also.

All my life I have worked hard and never looked what other people have. I don´t care about others to be honest. But the question was that are peruvians being treated better than foreigners? I don´t think so. I think if you don´t watch you back here you will find couple of knives being struck there before you even notice. Apparently there is a price for friendliness also.

But we cannot say all the peruvians are greedy liars. Just the majority. :roll:
Honesty doesn´t live in us!
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby MarcoPE » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Drake wrote:Googd conversation here. I will give you few examples.
In the same building where I live there is an hairstore downstairs. My wifes brother had a lockstore next to the hairstore. There is a one woman who owns these retails. First she told my wifes brother that he has to leave because she needs the space. Then she was making a huge renovation for the store and at the same time she was being friendly towards the woman who had a hairstore in the neighbour store. She was asking questions and hanging around there almost every day. Then she announced that she is going to open a hairstore of her own and when she opened her doors she cut the electricity of the neighbourstore and told this woman to leave. All of this started to happen when her daughter married a lawyer who apparently paid the renovacion of the store also.

All my life I have worked hard and never looked what other people have. I don´t care about others to be honest. But the question was that are peruvians being treated better than foreigners? I don´t think so. I think if you don´t watch you back here you will find couple of knives being struck there before you even notice. Apparently there is a price for friendliness also.

But we cannot say all the peruvians are greedy liars. Just the majority. :roll:
Honesty doesn´t live in us!



Couldn't agree more.....
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Kelly » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:29 pm

I would disagree. Especially with the last part.

I don't think that all - or most - Pervians are greedy liars. I think most people in general will be greedy and lie if they think they can get away with it.

The difference is that here in Peru, you don't have consistent laws and enforcement to protect people from other's greed. Think about the US before consumer protection laws, worker protection laws, environmental protection laws etc went into effect. People complain about a lot of those laws and how they limit a free market etc, but it was the kind of behaviour you're talking about that precipitated their passage.

Do you not think that the banking fiasco, Enron, pension ripoffs (http://money.msn.com/retirement-investm ... orbes.aspx) etc in the US are anything different that what goes on here in Peru?

There is no perfect world where people care about each other and always do the right thing. Sometimes it takes the threat of fines or jail to make them do it.
Last edited by Kelly on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Choripán » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:34 pm

Drake wrote:But we cannot say all the peruvians are greedy liars. Just the majority.


So, let's see, you're saying that Peruvians have an extra greed gene and an extra liar gene? Or is there a specific greedy liar gene living on the Peruvian chromosome? Since you're talking like a geneticist, or maybe a eugenicist, why not share your science with us.

While we're on the subject, how long have you lived here? I find it amazing that anyone could meet "the majority of Peruvians" in a single lifetime. That must be, what, at least 15 million people? How on earth do you remember all their names, let alone whether they are indeed greedy liars?

I suspect there is a more cogent explanation for your attitude.

Life truly is a big honey pot, nothing more than a bowl of bait, drawing the inner truth out of people when they least expect it. Chi chi posts a thread saying "we are immigrants in Peru so we must adapt to their customs and respect their traditions" and suddenly there's a racist free-for-all in response. Trap set, bait taken. Did you mean to show the whole table your hand? Because while the question of what "Peruvians" are is open to speculation, what you are is now fully settled.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby chi chi » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Kelly wrote:I don't think that all - or most - Pervians are greedy liars. I think most people in general will be greedy and lie if they think they can get away with it.


I think it's everywhere like that. I don't distrust Peruvians more or less than Europeans, Americans, Chinese or Eskimos.

Especially, now with the crisis. People getting difficulties in making ends meet so they will become greedy and only thinking about themselves.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby renodante » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:27 pm

tomsax wrote:
renodante wrote:i've never really felt i was treated better than peruvians here. but there's usually that strange mix of adoration/fascination and contempt/jealousy.


I did once hear a Peruvian talking about me after I took my kit off at the beach. "Este gringo se parece como un pollo desplumado!". It wasn't so much comtempt as mild pity!


haha.

also i have to make the usual caveat: all this is generalization. there are plenty of peruvians i meet where i don't feel any different from any other interaction in the U.S. it's not like any of this stuff is written in stone or happens all the time.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby alan » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:48 pm

tomsax wrote:
renodante wrote:i've never really felt i was treated better than peruvians here. but there's usually that strange mix of adoration/fascination and contempt/jealousy.


I did once hear a Peruvian talking about me after I took my kit off at the beach. "Este gringo se parece como un pollo desplumado!". It wasn't so much comtempt as mild pity!



Ha ha... in my first week in Peru, and my first day at the beach, the kid next to me said "eres mas blanco que mi crayola blanca". Mouthy brat.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby alan » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:59 pm

Drake wrote:
But we cannot say all the peruvians are greedy liars. Just the majority. :roll:
Honesty doesn´t live in us!


Wow.. this is incredibly out of line. You say "us". Does this mean you are Peruvian? (and following your twisted logic, if you are, we probably shouldn´t believe you anyway).

In any case, personal anecdotes are great and can be very illustrative, but please keep hurtful racist generalizations out of the debate.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby stuart » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:23 pm

I think Drake should be cut some slack. If he had said the majority of Peruvians like to party, it would be just as "racist", offensive and "out of line". He did not say, as Choripán suggests, that Peruvians are sub-species with genetic defects. One thing I like most about Peru is a lack of a over-burdening PC culture, that ought to extend to Expat.

Peruvian culture is one that has among its many many traits, both positive and negative, a fair higher proportion of dishonesty, a tendency to cheat and exploit others and to break any and all rules of the game if it can be gotten away with. It is on the most part considered marginally acceptable and even a bit of a laugh to cheat, lie and steal your way to success. Many even admire this "viveza criolla" as a positive thing.

I don't think it is racist to state truthful observations about a society. I'm not racist for saying the above.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Choripán » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:06 am

stuart wrote:He did not say, as Choripán suggests, that Peruvians are sub-species with genetic defects.


Sub-species with genetic defects? Hmm. That's a bit of a stretch. Open dishonesty rarely works in political rhetoric, unless of course you're running for president of the United States of America as a Republican. You might want to reel it in a little.

If you say that the majority of Peruvians are "greedy liars," what else could you possibly mean other than that there are genes for greed and dishonesty that, like height, hair and eyes, uniquely define the Peruvian population? (For the record, I think there probably are genes for greed and dishonesty that, as Kelly said, runs through the entire human population.) The whole point of Drake's statement, and racist statements in general, is to set Peruvians off as a people from the supposedly non-greedy, non-liars that populate this expat forum and other parts of the tall, non-brown world. It's not a cultural claim when phrased that way, because people who say things about "the majority of Peruvians" also tend to say things about "the majority" of blacks, latinos, arabs, asians, turks, whatever, who live as minorities within their own home cultures. They also think inserting the word "majority" softens the appearance of racism, making themselves one of the good guys. Besides, if Drake had meant to criticize the culture rather than the people, he would have said something like "Peruvian culture rewards greed and dishonesty." Instead he chose to talk about "the majority" of Peruvians. Racists don't talk about culture, because they don't care about culture. Instead they talk about people.

Drake's error is one common to persons with a poisoned heart: they only see the negative despite the overwhelming presence of the positive. Drake walks through his day, gets lied to and taken advantage of by some opportunist looking to exploit the information asymmetry that defines any expat experience. Locals know more than foreigners, and therefore we make easy targets. That's the real dynamic shaping our experience away from home. Culture and race and any other sweeping generalizations have nothing to do with it. Every moment of every day immigrants and newbies are mistreated all over the world precisely because they are immigrants and newbies. We are honey pots. As an expat, Drake becomes angry, as anyone would, because of the injustice he periodically suffers when he's mistaken for a piece of juicy bait. But instead of seeing the hundreds of acts of kindness that have truly defined his day - the taxi that actually did stop before running him over, the old guy who helped him find something at the mercado, the dirty abandoned street dog fed daily by the local fruit vendor - Drake sees only the one act of dishonesty and greed that affects him. He is, as they say, blinded by his passion. And from there his poisoned heart proceeds to generalize to "the majority" of Peruvians.

That's the funny thing about negativity: it's infectious. It'll take over your life and even shape your fundamental perception of the world if you let it. Suddenly you become the high priest of falsehood. And then you'll get on the expat forum and start telling everyone else that they should feel the same way you do. Not a great way to live.

What is it that the buddhists always say? You will not be punished for your hatred and anger. Your hatred and anger are your punishment.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Drake » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:38 am

A false prothet of hatred with a heart of poison?
I forgive you friend.
I don´t have hate in my heart and I am not a racist if I would be I would not marry a peruvian.
People exploit me because I want to see good in them even they are not worth of anyones trust. It´s been like this all my life. I rather walk away than start a fight. It´s not weakness it is forgiveness and loving even the people who do you wrong.
I´m from the countryside you know. We don´t lock our doors at night and we are friendly towards our neigbours. I just never understood why people have to be so mean.
That is my crime sir.
I am a peruvian now but I will not start acting like them. I will not promote corruption, I will not abuse my neigbours, I will not speak poop behind peoples backs, I respect the elderly people, I will respect the law and culture of Peru even if I would not agree with it.
It doesn´t change the fact that majority of peruvians don´t respect the rules or have a moral code. This is nearly a point of observation nothing more.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby renodante » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:48 am

Apparently there is a price for friendliness also.


that's one thing that i must admit, i've encountered too many times here. kindness/generosity interpreted as stupidity/weakness.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Choripán » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:55 pm

Drake wrote:I just never understood why people have to be so mean.


You call the majority of Peruvians greedy liars and then you wonder why they are not overly friendly with you? My guess is that they can smell your hostility before you even open your mouth.

Your justification for racism is interesting. It's not because you are a bad person that leads you to say those things. Rather, it's precisely because you're such a good person that you make sweeping generalizations about people you have never met. My guess is that every racist on earth would agree with your position. It reminds me of that old Monty Python skit, the one where John Cleese, in a tone of self-indulgent moral righteousness, says "There are only two kinds of people in the world that I hate: bigots and the Irish."
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby rama0929 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:09 pm

Choripán wrote:
Drake wrote:I just never understood why people have to be so mean.


You call the majority of Peruvians greedy liars and then you wonder why they are not overly friendly with you? My guess is that they can smell your hostility before you even open your mouth.


Maybe, just maybe, he may be "hostile" because he may have been burned one too many times?
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Drake » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:11 pm

You call the majority of Peruvians greedy liars and then you wonder why they are not overly friendly with you? My guess is that they can smell your hostility before you even open your mouth.

Actually they have been very friendly with me when money is not involved. As soon as you make business with them they start becoming problematic.
Or maybe you just regocnized yourself and right at this moment you face difficulties to accept the truth.
The truth hurts they say.

"The prothet has spoken!"
:twisted:
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby renodante » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:47 pm

Drake wrote:
You call the majority of Peruvians greedy liars and then you wonder why they are not overly friendly with you? My guess is that they can smell your hostility before you even open your mouth.

Actually they have been very friendly with me when money is not involved. As soon as you make business with them they start becoming problematic.
Or maybe you just regocnized yourself and right at this moment you face difficulties to accept the truth.
The truth hurts they say.

"The prothet has spoken!"
:twisted:


doing business with peruvians is ridiculous. peruvians know it, gringos know it, let's just face it, I agree. You want something produced by a certain deadline? Tell everyone the deadline is a week before the actual deadline, then you'll only be a day late past the deadline rather than a week or two.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Choripán » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:32 am

So clearly there are a number of people on this forum who feel comfortable making categorical judgments about individuals they have never met. Fair enough. You are entitled to your views.

But let me ask you a question. How do you feel when you are treated the same way? This is issue of calling Peruvians greedy liars, or any other epithet, seems like a straight-up violation of the golden rule: don't do anything to anyone that you wouldn't want done to yourself.

The thing is that you are pissed off about mistreatment by certain Peruvians you've had business dealings with here. Who wouldn't be? It seems completely reasonable to verbally rip the people who harmed you because the truth is they deserve it. And it's always good to give feedback, whether positive or negative, so long as it's truthful and justified. It doesn't even have to be constructive if the behavior that occasioned it was truly abominable. Calling this or that particular person a greedy liar (assuming they are greedy and have lied) is a straight-up enforcement of the golden rule. A world where everyone, including you and me, is called out for bad behavior is desirable because the cumulative effect is a reduction in the possibility of future bad behavior. Most reasonable folks would endorse the practice. And even if they don't, I do.

But instead you choose turn around and rip a bunch people you have never even met. Innocent Peruvians, living and struggling in their daily lives, have now also been slandered as greedy liars. They had nothing to do with the experience that left you jaded. And yet you chose to punish them. That's a clear violation of the golden rule. Because you yourself would never want to be blamed for the behavior of someone else - especially if you have nothing in common with that someone else besides your race or nationality.

So, by extension, if a Peruvian were to say to you (assuming you are, like me, from the United States) that the majority of Americans are torturers, would you be okay with that? Or would you turn around and called them bigots in addition to being greedy liars? What if they were to say to you that the majority of Americans are grave dancers who **** on the bodies of dead soldiers? Or that the majority of Americans support dictatorial regimes so long as they promote their economic interests? Or that the majority of white Americans would enslave all blacks if given the opportunity?

I'm sure you get my point. The minute you heard any sweeping generalization that actually touched you personally you'd be back here on the expat forum howling with contempt about the bigotry and racism of the "majority of Peruvians."

One last thing. I like the running joke about your ordination as the high priest of negativity. But you should know that my own religious views are somewhere south of satan's. Common decency, fully expressed in the golden rule, is what it's all about. Even though religious imagery is sometimes the most effective way to communicate this belief.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby alan » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:17 am

I couldn´t agree more with the sentiments expressed by choripan. It´s not PC to say that broad, negative generalizations that are hurtful and potentially insulting have no place in this kind of debate.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby thisisluca » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:22 am

CHILLAX EVERYONE ... LET'S DRINK SOME PISCO SOURS !!! :D
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:08 pm

There is always some truth in generalizations. But that does not mean that they are
100% accurate. Still they are used as a tool for people to judge others. Sometimes
by coincidence or sometimes because the information is reliable a person can base
its judgment on them still you never know and we all do the very best that we can
with the limited information that we get.

When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.
So based on his direct experience the majority of Peruvians were unreliable,
greedy and dishonest. Still even with that degree of dishonesty the company
was able to make a profit due to the low wages.

The name of the company is not important. What is important is that nowadays
companies sell information as a way to gain profit. And that based on the information
from that company Peruvians have gained a reputation in worldwide business that
is very similar to some of the generalizations made on this forum. So if business
has the same opinion and uses successfully this information to make money. Then
as a conclusion there must be some degree of truth on it.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby tomsax » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:20 pm

I have to agree with Choripan that it's interesting that a thread about how foreigners might be treated better that Peruvians in Peru (which incidently I agree with) provokes such an strong reaction. It seems that the idea is such an afront to people!

I think calling Drake a racist is a bit much though. Racism has been going on so long in the world it is a struggle to keep it from being an automatic default position, in many many people, but calling each other racist is insulting and doesn't lead to much constructive debate. If I had to chose between called a greedy liar or a racist I'd probably go for being called a greedy liar.

But that doesn't mean that Drake should now call the majority of Peruvians racists!
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby tomsax » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:29 pm

falconagain wrote:When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.
So based on his direct experience the majority of Peruvians were unreliable,
greedy and dishonest. Still even with that degree of dishonesty the company
was able to make a profit due to the low wages.



It's simply not true! Not least because there is no corporation in the world that has anything like 5 million employeers. You should check your figures or your consultant friend didn't know what he/she was talking about.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby chi chi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:32 pm

falconagain wrote:When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.
So based on his direct experience the majority of Peruvians were unreliable,
greedy and dishonest. Still even with that degree of dishonesty the company
was able to make a profit due to the low wages.


If the Americans working for that company were paid like slaves then I think that 550000 of the 600000 will be stealing as well.

I worked in a five star hotel in London.
I've encountered very few employees that didn't steal.
We were paid the minimum wage of 3.50 pounds per hour. (it was in 1994)
We didn't get sickness pay when sick. Overtime didn't get paid.

Stealing food is almost considered 'normal'.
If a customers pays cash then you put the money in your pocket.
Equipment was 'missing' all the time.

Management was stealing as well. The restaurant manager was used to manage the tips. All tips were put in box and he divided the tips equally amongst the staff and the end of the week.
We got around 15 pounds a week. That manager went for vacation for 1 month and the assistant manager divided the tips during that month. Tips jumped up to 35 POUNDS A WEEK.
Strange enough the restaurant was less busy during that month and all employees said that the customers were not giving more tips than usual and none of the staff has seen customers paying a 'huge' tip.



You had to steal to make ends meet. If someone resigned then it was generally one of the people who didn't steal.

There were around 50 different nationalities working in the hotel. There was no nationality stealing more than another.
Last edited by chi chi on Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:42 pm

tomsax wrote:
falconagain wrote:When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.
So based on his direct experience the majority of Peruvians were unreliable,
greedy and dishonest. Still even with that degree of dishonesty the company
was able to make a profit due to the low wages.



It's simply not true! Not least because there is no corporation in the world that has anything like 5 million employeers. You should check your figures or your consultant friend didn't know what he/she was talking about.


The corporation was part of a chain of companies that had different types of business
included. Still they had a centralized record of employees. It is like disney for example.
They report a certain amount of employees within their corporate headquarters but they
also own or are a part of a group of companies that do not carry their brand but still
are under the same administration. Besides that employees that are paid low wages by
international corporations are not even counted as people in certain cases. They are
classified as business expenses. Which is very common for shipping lines and cruise
lines. One Cruise for example may have 2000 people to manage it. But they also hire
4000 low wage people from other countries for other duties. So while it may appear
that they have a small amount of employees the real number of people working
doubles or triples because they go around the world getting bids for groups of
people and the company that bids the lowest is the one that wins.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:48 pm

chi chi wrote:
falconagain wrote:When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.
So based on his direct experience the majority of Peruvians were unreliable,
greedy and dishonest. Still even with that degree of dishonesty the company
was able to make a profit due to the low wages.


If the Americans working for that company were paid like slaves then I think that 550000 of the 600000 will be stealing as well.

I worked in a five star hotel in London.
I've encountered very few employees that didn't steal.
We were paid the minimum wage of 3.50 pounds per hour. (it was in 1994)
We didn't get sickness pay when sick. Overtime didn't get paid.

Stealing food is almost considered 'normal'.
If a customers pays cash then you put the money in your pocket.
Equipment was 'missing' all the time.

You had to steal to make ends meet. If someone resigned then it was generally one of the people who didn't steal.

There were around 50 different nationalities working in the hotel. There was no nationality stealing more than another.



It is true they were paid like slaves. But still that did not justify the amount of stealing.
At a certain time on their history Americans were not paid that much either. Still they
did not have the amount of dishonesty that we see now. They used underconsumed,
saved money and continued working.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Choripán » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:50 pm

tomsax wrote:I think calling Drake a racist is a bit much though.


So what is racism if not categorizing an entire population of human beings that are genetically different from oneself in deliberately negative terms? It seems like a textbook case to me. Just because Drake and the others believe that Peruvians deserve to be described as greedy liars doesn't mean their claims aren't racist. There's not a racist on earth who doesn't believe that the object of his hostility doesn't deserve every bit of it. It's actually quite amusing to see people like Falconagain conjure up facts out of thin air in order to justify their totally baseless racial views.


tomsax wrote: calling each other racist is insulting and doesn't lead to much constructive debate.

Actually, it does. And it's extremely effective in getting people to question their own assumptions a little more deeply. Bigotry is a corrosive force in human nature that sneaks up on each and every one of us when we least expect it. Only heightened self-awareness can keep it in its cage.

tomsax wrote:If I had to chose between called a greedy liar or a racist I'd probably go for being called a greedy liar.

If you had to chose? That's the thing about racists. They don't give you that choice. They are identity thieves. They take who you actually are away from you and give you a negative representation of yourself in return. Then they tell other people who you now are with the aim of getting everyone else to see you the same way. Pretty soon you are no longer a separate person but rather a mere instance of a category: just another greedy dishonest Peruvian. "If you've seen one, you've seen them all." You can kiss your individuality and your capacity to define yourself through your choices and your actions goodbye. There's no problem with this if you as an individual had actually done something to merit the identity theft - for example, if you had made a racist comment in public and were thus called out as a racist. But for the MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PERUVIANS WHO ARE NOT GREEDY LIARS it's as offensive and destructive as just about anything human beings can do to one another.
Last edited by Choripán on Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby chi chi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:57 pm

falconagain wrote:It is true they were paid like slaves. But still that did not justify the amount of stealing.
At a certain time on their history Americans were not paid that much either. Still they
did not have the amount of dishonesty that we see now. They used underconsumed,
saved money and continued working.


In that case. They didn't steal. They took back what's stolen from them.

Underpaying people is stealing.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:10 pm

tomsax wrote:
falconagain wrote:When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.
So based on his direct experience the majority of Peruvians were unreliable,
greedy and dishonest. Still even with that degree of dishonesty the company
was able to make a profit due to the low wages.



It's simply not true! Not least because there is no corporation in the world that has anything like 5 million employeers. You should check your figures or your consultant friend didn't know what he/she was talking about.


Certain International Corporations report certain number of employees on their official records
but they also hire a bigger amount of employees off the record with extended contracts at a low
wage through dummy companies that are reported as owned with 51% of the shares or as joint
ventures. The reason why this is done is obviously profit. They pocket a lot of money charging
1st world prices for a service that was provided with low wage workers. The bigger the international
corporation, the more amount of multiple dummy companies that they have to operate.
Besides that they also control to a certain degree the offer of work and the amount of money
to be paid. This has happened in Peru, Eastern Europe and Africa. In Peru what has happened
is that they offer at the beginning a contract of $600 a month for certain position, but when
Peruvians arrive to the place they reduce the amount of monthly compensation and increase
the number of hours (Something like $300 of 90 to 100 hours of work).

Chi chi immediately understood about which group of Peruvians I was talking about. Looks like
he has seen it happen. They post several ads under different company names, employ a lot of
people, do not deliver what they promise and on top of that they profile their employees (and the information of the profile is sold in the international market).

Even then, thinking about it carefully up to a certain point they are justified to steal because
the company never delivered what it was promised to them.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby gerard » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:35 pm

When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.


There are about 19 million people of working age in Peru (http://www.indexmundi.com/peru/age_structure.html), and this company employed 600,000 of them, or about 3% of the working age population?

It seems about as likely as being able to maintain documentation on 550,000 employees stealing from you.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby thisisluca » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:50 pm

as some people would say... " if you've got nothing good to say, then don't say anything at all "

:wink:
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:53 pm

The Peruvian Government, depending on the President usually employs between 1 to
2 million Peruvian citizens directly and indirectly. International companies have a
bigger budget and have no problem about how many employees they hire. Nowadays
with computers is very easy to maintain documentation. They keep in order to
negotiate with the employee.
An employee that got caught stealing is easier to negotiate with a second time
because he will not haggle about his wage and it will be grateful that it has a job.

Besides that stealing is only adding a mark on their service sheet. It is not like
in the US where the Government has so much information about a person.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby rama0929 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:58 pm

chi chi wrote:
falconagain wrote:It is true they were paid like slaves. But still that did not justify the amount of stealing.
At a certain time on their history Americans were not paid that much either. Still they
did not have the amount of dishonesty that we see now. They used underconsumed,
saved money and continued working.


In that case. They didn't steal. They took back what's stolen from them.

Underpaying people is stealing.


Bull.

Don't like the wages, then quit. No one's forcing anyone to work anywhere.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby Pollo mani » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:07 pm

A friend of mine once said “ when I moved to Brazil the people opened their arms and said How can we help you? When He moved to Peru , the people opened their arms and said How can you help us?
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby chi chi » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:44 pm

Those 550000 probably worked for the government.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3 ... AA300_.jpg
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby alan » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:33 pm

gerard wrote:
When I started looking for work in the US, I met a consultant that worked for a huge
International corporation (5 million employees), from those 5 million, 600 thousand
were Peruvian and were hired due to the low wages that could be paid for them.

Out of the 600,000, 550,000 were caught within the company stealing money.


There are about 19 million people of working age in Peru (http://www.indexmundi.com/peru/age_structure.html), and this company employed 600,000 of them, or about 3% of the working age population?

It seems about as likely as being able to maintain documentation on 550,000 employees stealing from you.



And that figure of 3% doubles or even triples when you consider that the majority of Peruvians of working age have never been on an official payroll. I smell malarkey. Why not just name the company and back up the accusation?
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:36 pm

It is not an accusation, It is a fact. Even Chi Chi understood immediately about what
kind of employees I was talking about, the only difference was that they were not
actually being abused by several companies but a few companies that hide behind
fake business shells something that is quite common in Peru.

Besides that the point of the post is Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians??
My answer was some foreign companies mistreat and abuse Peruvians (something that
is a reality). My question is then is How a Foreigner then expect to be treated when this
people come back from abroad with horror stories about how they were treated while
working in a foreign country. It is pretty obvious that one usually never sees this people.
It is almost like that movie about immigration America America, at a certain point in
the movie the immigrants are able to get into a boat to america and to them the Americans
look almost inhuman because they have not suffered the though life that each one of them
had. Then when the movie ends the protagonist has become an american with a complete
change in perspectives compared to other people in his country.

My point is that everyone has a point of view that changes with time. Many Peruvians just
hate Americans. Other Peruvians understand them and some like them. But we cannot have
a whole population that simply likes another country. It is simply impossible.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby alan » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:31 pm

falconagain wrote:It is not an accusation, It is a fact. Even Chi Chi understood immediately about what
kind of employees I was talking about, the only difference was that they were not
actually being abused by several companies but a few companies that hide behind
fake business shells something that is quite common in Peru.


I think that for most of us, it becomes a fact when you can prove it, and clearly you can´t. Meanwhile, you use it to back up the argument that the majority of Peruvians steal. I can only speculate at your motives, but flame-baiting seems to be among them.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:42 pm

Alan wrote:
falconagain wrote:It is not an accusation, It is a fact. Even Chi Chi understood immediately about what
kind of employees I was talking about, the only difference was that they were not
actually being abused by several companies but a few companies that hide behind
fake business shells something that is quite common in Peru.


I think that for most of us, it becomes a fact when you can prove it, and clearly you can´t. Meanwhile, you use it to back up the argument that the majority of Peruvians steal. I can only speculate at your motives, but flame-baiting seems to be among them.


My argument was not that the majority of Peruvians steal. But actually quite different.
Please mind reading the full post before providing an answer.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby americorps » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:24 pm

I am not sure offering Chi Chi's support provides you the added credibility you are looking for, but I agree with Alan.

A nameless faceless unproven allegation presented as fact does not merit respect as evidence in any way shape or form.
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Re: Foreigners are treated better in Peru than Peruvians???

Postby falconagain » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:36 pm

Due to the size and power of the Company I cannot name them directly otherwise
they will simply blacklist me for working anywhere in Peru and in some industries
within the States.

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