Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

[tupacperu]

PRESS RELEASE
May 31, 2012, 8:30 a.m. EDT
First Reloadable Prepaid Card Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru
NovoPayment's Prepaid Platform Was Vital to the Design, Execution and Support of the Pioneering Program Laying the Foundation of a New Payments Ecosystem

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/first- ... 2012-05-31

[Jimmy111]

Peru is making a big push to go all electronic. They are trying as hard as possible to do away with the informal business and underground economy. In otherwords, the government wants to know how much money you spend and where you spend it. Gotta make sure they get their cut.

Its amazing for me that just 15 years ago there wasent even DNI's

[falconagain]

Most of the Peruvian economy is underground and informal. They are allowing the government to have
too much control over everybody. Guaranteed massive poverty will be the result.

[chi chi]

Most of the Peruvian economy is underground and informal.

Peru is the land of the free. Few countries give their people so much freedom.
Peruvians don´t like to be controlled by the government. They don´t trust governments. They see it as estafa.

[Jimmy111]

You mean it used to be the land of the free.
The government is hell bent on changing that and there is little protection in the constitution for the people.

Most of the Peruvian economy is underground and informal.

Peru is the land of the free. Few countries give their people so much freedom.
Peruvians don´t like to be controlled by the government. They don´t trust governments. They see it as estafa.

[falconagain]

You mean it used to be the land of the free.
The government is hell bent on changing that and there is little protection in the constitution for the people.

Most of the Peruvian economy is underground and informal.

Peru is the land of the free. Few countries give their people so much freedom.
Peruvians don´t like to be controlled by the government. They don´t trust governments. They see it as estafa.

Chichi is not aware of the Constitution or the history of Peru.

[alan]

Most of the Peruvian economy is underground and informal. They are allowing the government to have
too much control over everybody. Guaranteed massive poverty will be the result.

Okay... so all of a sudden inclusion of the poor in the financial system will cause massive poverty?? How do you figure?

This initiative is wonderful in my view. It makes it easier for the poor to manage money and make and receive payments. Consider for a second what it means not to have a bank account and to try to accumulate even the smallest savings... Where do you keep it? Under the mattress, making you afraid to leave your house unattended? Okay.. If people WANT to spend and save in cash, that´s fine, but this product at least gives them the option. I think it is a huge step forward.

From the article:

About LATODO LATODO (roughly, 'the everything' in Spanish) is a hybrid reloadable prepaid card that offers unbanked Peruvians for the first time a secure way to make modern purchases and payments without the need to open a bank account. It is estimated that seven out of 10 Peruvians, approximately 10 million people, are unbanked and the launch of this card aims to facilitate financial inclusion in the country.

The LATODO offering

The LATODO card can be reloaded in more than 2,200 stores affiliated with the new AKI network located throughout the country in places such as supermarkets, pharmacies, grocers and Interbank banking agents. Cardholders can access balance and account information and special offers through their mobile phones and the cards are insured.

The card allows cardholders to receive direct deposits from an employer, make purchases at points of sale and online, withdraw cash at ATMs, make recurring payments via direct debit, and perform P2P funds transfers from one card to another in a safe and convenient way. This is the beginning of a new payment category in the country. The initial launch of the LATODO card was in Lima and will gradually expand to other cities of the country.

LATODO also allows for users to meet various financial goals as they can request a transaction log that can serve as income history to qualify for loans and other credits products.

[Jimmy111]

Alan. The problem with these devices is that within a few years it will be mandatory and posession of cash will be illegal. (Gotta stop those bad money washers) Then when they take a look at a report that spits out your spending habbits and decide that you are spending a little too much related to your income or you are buying a little too much construction supplies or meat or what ever they think you are using in your little side business and you will find that your card wont work and the police will be knocking on your door searching your home or business so on and so forth. Then,your bills wont get paid and you will be very, very hungry untill you plea out a plea bargin and pay your fine 50% of your assets because that is the penality for not declaring the income that you never really made but had to plea to so you could feed your fammily and pay your morgage so they dont take your house.
Like Keynes said. He who controls the currency controls the country (People). You want to keep the people from revolting, put a hold on their account. If you want them to do what you want,, put a hold on their account. If you just plain dont like them then take their money. Oops, technical error. we will have it back to you in a maximum of 90 days.
Cash is freedom. Dont trade it for security or the wow factor of new technology. But im afraid that that is exactly what will happen in Peru.

[alan]

Alan. The problem with these devices is that within a few years it will be mandatory and posession of cash will be illegal. (Gotta stop those bad money washers) Then when they take a look at a report that spits out your spending habbits and decide that you are spending a little too much related to your income or you are buying a little too much construction supplies or meat or what ever they think you are using in your little side business and you will find that your card wont work and the police will be knocking on your door searching your home or business so on and so forth. Then,your bills wont get paid and you will be very, very hungry untill you plea out a plea bargin and pay your fine 50% of your assets because that is the penality for not declaring the income that you never really made but had to plea to so you could feed your fammily and pay your morgage so they dont take your house.
Like Keynes said. He who controls the currency controls the country (People). You want to keep the people from revolting, put a hold on their account. If you want them to do what you want,, put a hold on their account. If you just plain dont like them then take their money. Oops, technical error. we will have it back to you in a maximum of 90 days.
Cash is freedom. Dont trade it for security or the wow factor of new technology. But im afraid that that is exactly what will happen in Peru.

Jimmy.. it´s an interesting theory.. but has this actually happened anywhere? Is there any reason we should be more fearful of this here than other countries which are much more digitized?

And why not extend the argument to other modern services like light, water? The argument would be: "want to keep the people from revolting, just cut off their lights and water"...

I do appreciate your concerns, but I think efforts are better spent looking for oversight mechanisms and not impeding the poor from modernizing.

[rama0929]

Okay... so all of a sudden inclusion of the poor in the financial system will cause massive poverty?? How do you figure?

It won't cause massive poverty. The "unbanked" are already poor. This is just a way to get in their pockets; it's a relatively untapped market.

This initiative is wonderful in my view. It makes it easier for the poor to manage money and make and receive payments.

It also makes it easier for them to be foolish with their money. Peruvians are already being sucked in by ez credit. On the flip side this is part and parcel of becoming an "advanced" (for lack of a better term) country, though I can only imagine how the system can and will be exploited either by faulty ATM's, people losing their cards, people getting robbed at the ATM while withdrawing money, whatever.

But that's no reason to stop progress.

[rama0929]

Jimmy.. it´s an interesting theory.. but has this actually happened anywhere? Is there any reason we should be more fearful of this here than other countries which are much more digitized?

Of course not. And if this has happened anywhere, I can't think of any instances off the top of my head.

People like speed and convenience.

Also, if I drop my wallet with $500 cash, I'm out that money. On a card, I simply call it in, cancel it and get a new one.

[craig]

it´s an interesting theory.. but has this actually happened anywhere? Is there any reason we should be more fearful of this here than other countries which are much more digitized?

It happens all the time in the US. Anyone caught in possession of more than a few hundred dollars in cash is likely to have it confiscated. Your bank account can be frozen or confiscated by a keystroke from a myriad of government agencies. And there is no effective recourse for anyone without wealth and political connections.

It gets worse and worse: Guilty Til Proven Innocent

And why not extend the argument to other modern services like light, water? The argument would be: "want to keep the people from revolting, just cut off their lights and water"...

That is why it is important that such services not be monopolized and/or regulated by the state.

I do appreciate your concerns, but I think efforts are better spent looking for oversight mechanisms and not impeding the poor from modernizing.

It is precisely "oversight mechanisms" that both exclude poor people from services and make it dangerous for them to use them. If you really want to make a variety of financial services available and accessible to the poor, a better approach is to eliminate financial regulation and control by the state.

This kind of service for unbanked people has been available in Peru for many years. It is nothing new. Before it was bought by Scotiabank, Banco Weise developed the Pagum system. Pagum is still operated by Scotiabank. But I don't think it has gotten much use. And recent new, complicated regulations have put the originally easily accessible system beyond the reach of most common people since it now requires qualifications essentially the same as those for a bank account. I'll give you 10:1 odds that the same is true of NovoPayment's prepaid card so it will be utterly useless for the poor in Peru because of your beloved state oversight.

[chi chi]

Most of the Peruvian economy is underground and informal. They are allowing the government to have
too much control over everybody. Guaranteed massive poverty will be the result.

The banks are used to steal from the people who have money. But because of the crisis, there´s no more money to steal from them.

So, the ruthless banks now start stealing from the poor.

[tomsax]

I think the reason so few Peruvians have bank accounts is that there is a mistrust of banks in general after the first Alan Garcia government, the historic high charges Peruvian banks incur and because of the small percentage tax on all financial tranfers. It's a small percentage I know but symbolic. It would be far better if they scrapped that tax and got more people into bank accounts which can then increase tax revenue by motivating people to be honest about their income (having an auditable bank account is a great motivator).

Electronic transactions do have an advantage for people. Only about 10% of my monthly expenditure is cash in the UK. Most of our groceries are brought online with delivery to the door. All bills are direct debit with utlity companies giving a discount for that and its convenient anyway. And we do a lot of internet shopping which saves loads of time. I don't think I could do the same in Peru or could I?

Would this new card have transactions taxed? if it does it has no chance. I actually agree with Craig that bank regulation is likely to decrease the poor's access to payment cards rather than increase it.

[falconagain]

Most of the Peruvian economy is underground and informal. They are allowing the government to have
too much control over everybody. Guaranteed massive poverty will be the result.

Okay... so all of a sudden inclusion of the poor in the financial system will cause massive poverty?? How do you figure?
[/i]

One current example is the US economy, the majority of the US economy runs through electronic transactions, only a certain percentage of dollars are printed. Look at how much the government of Obama has increased the money supply, the amount of money printed is the equivalent to the budget of several presidential administrations.

The result, IRA accounts that suddenly lost their value from millions to a few hundred thousands, inflation
(higher prices on gasoline, foods, and other goods), low salaries, bankruptcy of several local governments.

Currently the government keeps printing. Electronic currency is not a good thing because like any currency
the amount of the money supply can be increased without any fiscal discipline.

[Jimmy111]

I used to be all for this sort of thing. I thought it would be great to just be able to walk into a store and walk out with my goods without even going to the cash register.A computer would automatically take care of the transaction for me. I was all for the technology. I had it all.
That was untill one day MY money was gone and my door was being broken down. A boot grinding your face into the concrete is a great wakeup call to the reality of the situation and the concenquences of giving up your freedom for a little security and convienience. It was all of course a mistake. They figured that out after most of the money was spent on legal fees. They still did not want to give the money back. Why should they. They get to keep 80% if they just say it is ilegal money. Forbidden fruits as they call it. They dont even have to charge you with anything. Then it is another civil case to get your money back. And believe me, they dont want to give it back

I think the reason so few Peruvians have bank accounts is that there is a mistrust of banks in general after the first Alan Garcia government, the historic high charges Peruvian banks incur and because of the small percentage tax on all financial tranfers. It's a small percentage I know but symbolic. It would be far better if they scrapped that tax and got more people into bank accounts which can then increase tax revenue by motivating people to be honest about their income (having an auditable bank account is a great motivator).

Electronic transactions do have an advantage for people. Only about 10% of my monthly expenditure is cash in the UK. Most of our groceries are brought online with delivery to the door. All bills are direct debit with utlity companies giving a discount for that and its convenient anyway. And we do a lot of internet shopping which saves loads of time. I don't think I could do the same in Peru or could I?

Would this new card have transactions taxed? if it does it has no chance. I actually agree with Craig that bank regulation is likely to decrease the poor's access to payment cards rather than increase it.

[tomsax]

The only place I've lost electronic money was in Peru when US$2000 suddently left my account through "tranfers" and "cash withdrawals". I got it back though after a couple of months but without any expenses on my part. But I still kept money in the bank after that. What was I going to do? put may savings money under my mattress? Life is a succession of calculated risks - or it should be...

I'm not losing my freedom by using a debit/credit card. It's my choice. It's true that some of the utility companies in the UK now make it difficult to pay in cash but that is their freedom to do so too.

Who is the "they" you are talking about anyway?

[craig]

The only place I've lost electronic money was in Peru when US$2000 suddently left my account through "tranfers" and "cash withdrawals". I got it back though after a couple of months but without any expenses on my part. But I still kept money in the bank after that.

You got your money back because it was not the government that took it. And you left your money in the bank because the bank was not forced deliver your money to the government and legally shielded from responsibility.

Who is the "they" you are talking about anyway?

"They" is a government: federal, state or local. They all have SWAT teams to break down your door whenever they are bored. And they all can make your money dissappear out of your bank account and destroy your life at any time they want without cause or any effective recourse.

Peruvians would be (and I think they are) wise not to expose themselves to this sort of tyranny.

[tomsax]

I think you two live in a pretty scary world and I don't envy you.

SWAT team as in Special Weapons and Tactics? What special weapons do you envisage them needing if they can just take from my bank account anyway? If they have the means at hand then they can take my money from under my mattress, search all the hiding places in my house and blow up my safe (if I had one). If I did live in your scary world then I think having money in a bank account would be the least of my problems. Seriously, having a few grand in a bank account is far less risky of carrying wads of bills around in my daily life. The chances of being mugged by a local opportunist in my neighbourhood, even in this sleepy town, far outweigh the risks of being visited by my local government SWOT team. I think you guys just need to get real.

But anyway we are not addressing the initial post.

[Jimmy111]

No one knows you have your money in your mattress unless you tell them.
Now besides the governmental abuse of power aspect of this. There is the practical aspect.
Money used to be gold or silver or something of value. Then came bank notes. essecientally a IOU that the bank owes you money. Ok as long as everyone takes them they are useful. They are a physical, tangible Item with intrinsic value.
Now along comes digital money. You dont have possesion of it at all. Not even the option of having it. It is intangible.
Lets say you live in Lima or even outside some where and you live in a nice cashless society then the enevitable happens.
Lima is trashed by an earthquake.
How are you going to eat?
Do you think you will ever get your money back? It will never happen.
Lets say you have an account with Interbank. You see the economy is crashing and decide you want to get your money out of the bank. You cant. it isnt your money. There is no money to get out. Then the economy crashes. How are you going to get your money back? You are not.

I think you two live in a pretty scary world and I don't envy you.

SWAT team as in Special Weapons and Tactics? What special weapons do you envisage them needing if they can just take from my bank account anyway? If they have the means at hand then they can take my money from under my mattress, search all the hiding places in my house and blow up my safe (if I had one). If I did live in your scary world then I think having money in a bank account would be the least of my problems. Seriously, having a few grand in a bank account is far less risky of carrying wads of bills around in my daily life. The chances of being mugged by a local opportunist in my neighbourhood, even in this sleepy town, far outweigh the risks of being visited by my local government SWOT team. I think you guys just need to get real.

But anyway we are not addressing the initial post.

[tomsax]

No one knows you have your money in your mattress unless you tell them.
Now besides the governmental abuse of power aspect of this. There is the practical aspect.
Money used to be gold or silver or something of value. Then came bank notes. essecientally a IOU that the bank owes you money. Ok as long as everyone takes them they are useful. They are a physical, tangible Item with intrinsic value.
Now along comes digital money. You dont have possesion of it at all. Not even the option of having it. It is intangible.
Lets say you live in Lima or even outside some where and you live in a nice cashless society then the enevitable happens.
Lima is trashed by an earthquake.
How are you going to eat?
Do you think you will ever get your money back? It will never happen.
Lets say you have an account with Interbank. You see the economy is crashing and decide you want to get your money out of the bank. You cant. it isnt your money. There is no money to get out. Then the economy crashes. How are you going to get your money back? You are not.

If we are talking about where to store one's wealth most Peruvians invest their savings in their properties, which is where most of my wealth lies in the UK. But in Peru your house can collapse in an earthquake and looters will go through your mattresses without you having to tell them. Spreading the risk to a bank account doesn't seem a bad idea to me.

But, the most useful thing about a payment card is not to store wealth, it is convenience in day to day revenue and spend. Online business is growing massively throughout the world and Peru is being left behind. Most people are far more worried about private fraudsters taking their money online rather than the governnment doing so. Sure cash is still useful and you can still keep some stashed away for any eventuality but I don't really understand why you are so much against bank accounts. Remember the earthquake in 2007? The internet was one of the only things working after it struck. Some people in Chincha and Pisco might have lost everything accept what they had in their Interbank accounts.

[craig]

I think you two live in a pretty scary world and I don't envy you.

That scary world is in the US. I prefer to live in Peru where it is fairly safe from government predation and there is still some respect for individual rights and human dignity. And I don't want Peru to become like the US police state no matter how convenient you think it would be.

SWAT team as in Special Weapons and Tactics? What special weapons do you envisage them needing ...

Take a look for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxCgqDl5X58
This is what happens some 10,000 times a year. You can follow the links to as many other examples as you have stomach for. And no one is ever held responsible for it.

[chi chi]

I think the reason so few Peruvians have bank accounts is that there is a mistrust of banks in general.

Same in Europe now. So many people have lost most or all their money because the banks scammed them.
Thousands of people lost all their saving that was put in their accounts at FORTIS.

Many people (especially old people) are withdrawing all their money and keeping it at home.

[captsirl]

I move moneys in and out, but never heard of in "my" lifetime anyone losing money to a bank in N America.
Latin America maybe, but for years you were warned not to use them. Peru now has a bcc rating. Aint great but it's OK for small deposits.
Chi Chi please list the names of these banks that have failed in Europe and people lost their money in the last 50 years. England is a safe have for cash hordes.
Most of Latin America countries backs the US dollar to maintain theirs and the only fear in N. America is China will pay back the loans we gave them in the 80's and 90's to fast. But that would also would hurt China's triad. So I would not hold my breath.

[Alpineprince]

I have not looked into it, so I do not know if these are "open loop", allow multiple cards or if the network exists outside of Peru, but if all conditions are met many Peruvians will find it to be an optimal way of moving money overseas legally, without any reporting requirements. US citizens call them "A bank in your back pocket" as each card allows you to put $10,000.00 on it and carry it across borders in your wallet.

[rama0929]

it´s an interesting theory.. but has this actually happened anywhere? Is there any reason we should be more fearful of this here than other countries which are much more digitized?

It happens all the time in the US. Anyone caught in possession of more than a few hundred dollars in cash is likely to have it confiscated.

So let me get this straight, a guy has a ton of cash in a known drug corridor, and can't account for it? No, I can't imagine any red flags would be tripped...

[rama0929]

I used to be all for this sort of thing. I thought it would be great to just be able to walk into a store and walk out with my goods without even going to the cash register.A computer would automatically take care of the transaction for me. I was all for the technology. I had it all.
That was untill one day MY money was gone and my door was being broken down. A boot grinding your face into the concrete is a great wakeup call to the reality of the situation and the concenquences of giving up your freedom for a little security and convienience. It was all of course a mistake. They figured that out after most of the money was spent on legal fees. They still did not want to give the money back. Why should they. They get to keep 80% if they just say it is ilegal money. Forbidden fruits as they call it. They dont even have to charge you with anything. Then it is another civil case to get your money back. And believe me, they dont want to give it back

You may as well give the whole story

[rama0929]

I think you two live in a pretty scary world and I don't envy you.

That scary world is in the US. I prefer to live in Peru where it is safe..

http://youtu.be/ukuFS7yMCnA

[captsirl]

I don't know if its Legality. But when I bought my home in the Bahamas I put cash in American Express so as to have a positive balance then went to the closing and was never asked a thing. Not even my CPA figured it out. Not that I was trying to do anything illegal it was just easy and often to save on wire fees. I would have off shore banks pay American express for materials I sold overseas. I commuted every Monday Wednesday and Friday for almost 20 years. I do however have a export tax id number if that makes a difference. I am pro plastic. Nothing worse the having a large amount of cash on you returning to the states and they find some of it is counterfeit.

[rideout]

It happens all the time in the US. Anyone caught in possession of more than a few hundred dollars in cash is likely to have it confiscated. Your bank account can be frozen or confiscated by a keystroke from a myriad of government agencies. And there is no effective recourse for anyone without wealth and political connections.

When I was first reading this post, I thought I may be crazy or that everyone here was naive! The US is ALL about information now. With this posting, the first thing I thought about was that little office in San Isidro with "Experian" on the sign. Before long, there will be an office for Trans Union and Equifax (if there isn't already). These companies make millions selling YOUR information. The US is seeking a way (a threat really) to regulate pre-paid cards (both foreign and domestic) because of their "possible link to drug traffic."
http://www.insightcrime.org/insight-latest-news/item/1858-us-tightens-rules-on-prepaid-cards-to-stop-money-laundering

It seems to me, the biggest business in the world now is invading the privacy of others!

[chi chi]

When I was first reading this post, I thought I may be crazy or that everyone here was naive! The US is ALL about information now. With this posting, the first thing I thought about was that little office in San Isidro with "Experian" on the sign. Before long, there will be an office for Trans Union and Equifax (if there isn't already). These companies make millions selling YOUR information.
It seems to me, the biggest business in the world now is invading the privacy of others!

Those type of businesess should be forbidden. They are just stealing the identity of people in order to steal from them. I think this type of businesses are run by criminals and are selling new identities to criminals.

[Alpineprince]

When I was first reading this post, I thought I may be crazy or that everyone here was naive! The US is ALL about information now. With this posting, the first thing I thought about was that little office in San Isidro with "Experian" on the sign. Before long, there will be an office for Trans Union and Equifax (if there isn't already). These companies make millions selling YOUR information.
It seems to me, the biggest business in the world now is invading the privacy of others!

Those type of businesess should be forbidden. They are just stealing the identity of people in order to steal from them. I think this type of businesses are run by criminals and are selling new identities to criminals.

WOW!

[falconagain]

Properly managed credit information companies provide a valuable service to society.
They blacklist irresponsible consumers. Hopefully Peru will develop properly managed
and integrity oriented Credit Information Companies.

[chi chi]

Properly managed credit information companies provide a valuable service to society.
They blacklist irresponsible consumers. Hopefully Peru will develop properly managed
and integrity oriented Credit Information Companies.

People lose their jobs, can´t work because they had an accident or had any other misfortune and get in financial problems.
Most of those people get on track again but because those credit information companies blacklisted them so those people are punished for the misfortune they had for the rest of their life. Those companies are getting in more problems than they already had.
Those companies just take advantage of other people their problems. How pathetic can someone be?

[falconagain]

Properly managed credit information companies provide a valuable service to society.
They blacklist irresponsible consumers. Hopefully Peru will develop properly managed
and integrity oriented Credit Information Companies.

People lose their jobs, can´t work because they had an accident or had any other misfortune and get in financial problems.
Most of those people get on track again but because those credit information companies blacklisted them so those people are punished for the misfortune they had for the rest of their life. Those companies are getting in more problems than they already had.
Those companies just take advantage of other people their problems. How pathetic can someone be?

They are necessary requirement to keep money and progress flowing. There will always be innocent people
but that does not mean that the guilty ones should go free. Progress has a price.

[chi chi]

Properly managed credit information companies provide a valuable service to society.
They blacklist irresponsible consumers. Hopefully Peru will develop properly managed
and integrity oriented Credit Information Companies.

People lose their jobs, can´t work because they had an accident or had any other misfortune and get in financial problems.
Most of those people get on track again but because those credit information companies blacklisted them so those people are punished for the misfortune they had for the rest of their life. Those companies are getting in more problems than they already had.
Those companies just take advantage of other people their problems. How pathetic can someone be?

They are necessary requirement to keep money and progress flowing. There will always be innocent people
but that does not mean that the guilty ones should go free. Progress has a price.

The guilty ones get a fake identity and start their scams over and over again. Probably with the help of their accomplices at those agencies.

[rama0929]

Properly managed credit information companies provide a valuable service to society.
They blacklist irresponsible consumers. Hopefully Peru will develop properly managed
and integrity oriented Credit Information Companies.

People lose their jobs, can´t work because they had an accident or had any other misfortune and get in financial problems.
Most of those people get on track again but because those credit information companies blacklisted them so those people are punished for the misfortune they had for the rest of their life. Those companies are getting in more problems than they already had.
Those companies just take advantage of other people their problems. How pathetic can someone be?

You are severely misinformed.

[Jimmy111]

Rama. It happens all the time in Peru right now. There has never been a shortage of people in Peru ready to sell what ever they have access to for a few bucks.
The public register system and DNI system have left everyone that owns anything open to having it all disapear some day.
I have a friend whos father died . He was quite wealthy. The whole family knew that his father had a will with a certain notary. A week after his father died they got the will and decided what to do about the Probate. Well while they were deciding someone had started transfering property and cleaning out the bank accounts. This person had another will that was written just a few days before his death and notarized by a different notary. Because this person had a the latest will my friend had no choice but to sue. Suing in Peru is a decade long process. Pretty much the family lost everything. They may get something back at the end of the suit but it is unlikely. This is very easy to do in Peru and happens all the time. It is one of the reasons that people with wealth hide it.

[rama0929]

Rama. It happens all the time in Peru right now. There has never been a shortage of people in Peru ready to sell what ever they have access to for a few bucks.
The public register system and DNI system have left everyone that owns anything open to having it all disapear some day.
I have a friend whos father died . He was quite wealthy. The whole family knew that his father had a will with a certain notary. A week after his father died they got the will and decided what to do about the Probate. Well while they were deciding someone had started transfering property and cleaning out the bank accounts. This person had another will that was written just a few days before his death and notarized by a different notary. Because this person had a the latest will my friend had no choice but to sue. Suing in Peru is a decade long process. Pretty much the family lost everything. They may get something back at the end of the suit but it is unlikely. This is very easy to do in Peru and happens all the time. It is one of the reasons that people with wealth hide it.

Who started transferring property and cleaning out bank accounts? The person with the second will?

From the entry above, the moral of the story seems to be "don't have more than one will."

[Jimmy111]

Yes, the guy with the second will.
The second will was a forgery. It gave everything to some guy from the mountains who had nothing. He was the testafarro.
Unfortunatly it is very easy to do. Everything you own is either in the public registery or searchable by your DNI number. I give it less than 5 years before this type of crime is rampant. among the new middle class. The rich ae smarter and have learned by being robbed already to hide their assets. However without lots and lots of money it is difficult to do. The government is hell bent on making your entire life transparent and searchable in Peru.

[alan]

Yes, the guy with the second will.
The second will was a forgery. It gave everything to some guy from the mountains who had nothing. He was the testafarro.
Unfortunatly it is very easy to do. Everything you own is either in the public registery or searchable by your DNI number. I give it less than 5 years before this type of crime is rampant. among the new middle class. The rich ae smarter and have learned by being robbed already to hide their assets. However without lots and lots of money it is difficult to do. The government is hell bent on making your entire life transparent and searchable in Peru.

Very interesting story and rather frightening.There are some very evil people out there. On the other hand, I haven´t read of this happening in the newspapers yet, so maybe it´s not happening as much as you fear?

What really puzzles me is why these crooked notaries don´t lose their licence.

[Jimmy111]

It takes a lot for a notary to lose their liscense. They tend to be powerful people. They have a lot of inside information on people just by the nature of their business. You have to take the notary to court. That is a $150,000 process in itsself. Then there are many automatic stops in the whole process where if the case hasent made a certain amount of progress it is dropped. Things like contempt of court dont exist so for the most part the notaries just ignore the whole process and it is eventually dropped. If someone who has plenty of extra cash is suing a notary it becomes a contest of who can influence the judges the best.
The news papers dont report on it because it is bad for business and the owners like the way the system works anyways.

[craig]

They are necessary requirement to keep money and progress flowing. There will always be innocent people but that does not mean that the guilty ones should go free. Progress has a price.

Clearly, for you as a "modern person", the concept of innocent until proven guilty is pase. Bring on the progressive police state!

[falconagain]

They are necessary requirement to keep money and progress flowing. There will always be innocent people but that does not mean that the guilty ones should go free. Progress has a price.

Clearly, for you as a "modern person", the concept of innocent until proven guilty is pase. Bring on the progressive police state!

I have never said innocent until proven guilty. You are making the wrong assumptions.
Even your concept of progressive police state is wrong, I have lived under one. You did not.

[craig]

I have never said innocent until proven guilty.

No, you didn't say "innocent until proven guilty", you said the opposite: that violating the rights of the innocent is a price worth paying if you think it will ensure all the guilty are caught.

Even your concept of progressive police state is wrong, I have lived under one. You did not.

Perhaps that explains and excuses your advocacy of tyranny. You don't know any better.

My police state experiences had the opposite effect on me: they reinforced my advocacy for individual rights and human liberty.

However, the worst are those (most Americans and most people on this site) who do know about liberty and have chosen to consciously reject it.

[rama0929]

My police state experiences had the opposite effect on me: they reinforced my advocacy for individual rights and human liberty.

However, the worst are those (most Americans and most people on this site) who do know about liberty and have chosen to consciously reject it.

O wise one, tell us about your police state experiences... And how did you manage to encounter most Americans and most people on this site. Busy little bee I see

[falconagain]

They are necessary requirement to keep money and progress flowing. There will always be innocent people but that does not mean that the guilty ones should go free. Progress has a price.

Clearly, for you as a "modern person", the concept of innocent until proven guilty is pase. Bring on the progressive police state!

I have never said innocent until proven guilty. You are making the wrong assumptions.
Even your concept of progressive police state is wrong, I have lived under one. You did not.

You make too many assumptions. Gigo like computers (Garbage In, Garbage Out)

[mtwilson]

Besides the repugnant notion that someone is tracking my every spending/deposit action or that my funds could be cut off for some over zealous law enforcement or tax authority action, there is another reason to resist any notion of using electronic currency accounts and that is the growing likelihood that this entire discussion may become moot in the next few years (or months for that matter) if banks start failing.

Anyone who still believes that banks are a safe place to to keep one's money hasn't been reading the economic press recently. There are bank runs happening as I write this in Greece and Spain and if you think these will be isolated events you may want to look into banking health in Italy, France, England and the US as well. It appears that the entire western banking/economic system is on the verge of collapse and that we are only one Lehman Bros. (or JPMorgan, Bank of America, Goldman, Deutsche bank, etc) failure away from seeing the reality of a systemic crash up close and personal.

The large banking institutions who have been declared "too big to fail" are insolvent and are threatening the entire global economy. I think Peruvians are likely to weather this inevitable storm far better than 1st worlders who may very likely wake up one morning to bank holidays and no access whatsoever to their convenient electronic currency accounts. This has happened before and the mathematics of today's banking debt mountain make it extremely likely to happen again. With exotic derivitives and hedge fund speculation running rampant (some estimates of dirivitive debt runs into the hundreds of trillions of "didgital" dollars), who would want their daily cash locked up inside one of these high tech casinos?

Not me and not a lot of my Peruvian friends and family either. Besides, no one at our local mercado accepts plastic anyway. I'll stick with cash until it becomes worthless and then I can always count on my silver and gold to get through.

[mtwilson]

You know there is one form of electronic currency that I could support completely and that Peruvians could start using immediately and that's BitCoin (http://bitcoin.org/).

It is anonymous and secure (you can encrypt your "wallet"). It is portable as your account can be stored anywhere online or on a computer or even a memory stick. It is free and no charges are levied for its use. You can make instantaneous international transfers - free! Come to think of it, this would be a far better campaign to start in Peru than some bloated banking cash card.

I vote for promoting BitCoin throughout Peru and lets watch the banks and the politicians squeal when they can't control it and charge a fee for it!

[falconagain]

Politicians will only start squealing when there is a gold or silver standard.