Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:12 pm

mtwilson wrote:Not me and not a lot of my Peruvian friends and family either. Besides, no one at our local mercado accepts plastic anyway. I'll stick with cash until it becomes worthless and then I can always count on my silver and gold to get through.


If the economy collapses, gold and silver will be the least of your worries, and probably just as worthless.


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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:13 pm

falconagain wrote:Politicians will only start squealing when there is a gold or silver standard.


It has been tried before...
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby falconagain » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:01 am

rama0929 wrote:
falconagain wrote:Politicians will only start squealing when there is a gold or silver standard.


It has been tried before...


It has worked better before. Of course it depends on how low civilization will go
within a collapse. I always wonder how people will behave on the states when
they are only allowed to eat 750 calories per day.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby mtwilson » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:15 am

rama0929 wrote:
If the economy collapses, gold and silver will be the least of your worries, and probably just as worthless.


I don't know, seems to me that 5000 years of monetary history would refute that.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby tomsax » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:47 am

mtwilson wrote:Besides the repugnant notion that someone is tracking my every spending/deposit action or that my funds could be cut off for some over zealous law enforcement or tax authority action, there is another reason to resist any notion of using electronic currency accounts and that is the growing likelihood that this entire discussion may become moot in the next few years (or months for that matter) if banks start failing.

Anyone who still believes that banks are a safe place to to keep one's money hasn't been reading the economic press recently. There are bank runs happening as I write this in Greece and Spain and if you think these will be isolated events you may want to look into banking health in Italy, France, England and the US as well. It appears that the entire western banking/economic system is on the verge of collapse and that we are only one Lehman Bros. (or JPMorgan, Bank of America, Goldman, Deutsche bank, etc) failure away from seeing the reality of a systemic crash up close and personal.

The large banking institutions who have been declared "too big to fail" are insolvent and are threatening the entire global economy. I think Peruvians are likely to weather this inevitable storm far better than 1st worlders who may very likely wake up one morning to bank holidays and no access whatsoever to their convenient electronic currency accounts. This has happened before and the mathematics of today's banking debt mountain make it extremely likely to happen again. With exotic derivitives and hedge fund speculation running rampant (some estimates of dirivitive debt runs into the hundreds of trillions of "didgital" dollars), who would want their daily cash locked up inside one of these high tech casinos?

Not me and not a lot of my Peruvian friends and family either. Besides, no one at our local mercado accepts plastic anyway. I'll stick with cash until it becomes worthless and then I can always count on my silver and gold to get through.


I agree that having all one's wealth in a cash bank account is probably not a good idea right now. But I repeat the great thing about bank accounts is that they make payments so much easier. I know this is also true in Peru as I have many a so happy memory standing in lines at telefonica, the electric company etc.

You don't have to keep much money in the bank at any one time, just enough to make sure that you don't go into debit before you get your next wage payment, sale, income fee or whatever. If you use a credit card you can have a very low net balance in your account at any one time and still enjoy the benefits.

I doubt there are many people who are remotely interested in my income and expenditure each month even if they did have access to it. I trust the system well enough and am careful enough to be confident fraudsters don't have easy access and unlike you guys I also have more confidence in government not mounting such an operation. I have little to hide and I suppose if I did this could be something that would be managed in cash. Sure there are risks but there are always risks in life. The most I could lose from a bank account is around a months salary so thanks for the advice but I think I will take the risk.

If more Peruvians have the choice of using a bank account and payment cards I'm all for it.

I am intrigued as to those on this forum who are so against bank accounts. Do you really not have them at all?
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby falconagain » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:19 am

Banks have been screwing Peruvians since I have memory.
In the second part of the 1970s, the government printed
too much money and wiped out several savings accounts.
1980s during the first government of Alan Garcia, he stopped
paying the national debt and started to print money to compensate
the lack of foreign loans, 90% of the population lost savings, investments,
and retirement accounts (this is why many retired Peruvians need to make
a line at the National Peruvian Bank to get their monthly check in the amount
of $3). During the 1990s, the government of Albert Fujimori took the business
and assets of many Peruvians with full collaboration of the Banks (Baruch Ivcher,
Channel 2 was the biggest case of that type).
Now starting from the year 2000, the government keeps their peg to a Dollar
that loses value at an accelerated rate. This reduces the value of the accounts in
Soles constantly. No alternatives of investments are announced by the government.
At least China and India has warned their citizens and told them to keep their assets
in gold and silver in order to keep the economy going.

All this bank scams have made all Peruvians aware that a bank is not a safe
place to keep your money.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:24 pm

mtwilson wrote:
rama0929 wrote:
If the economy collapses, gold and silver will be the least of your worries, and probably just as worthless.


I don't know, seems to me that 5000 years of monetary history would refute that.


If that were the case, you'd think they would've stayed with the gold standard...

Anyway, if the economy collapses, it will be quite interesting to see you convert your gold for food or services. Can't eat it, can't bathe in it, can't use it to defend my homestead.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby falconagain » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:44 am

rama0929 wrote:
mtwilson wrote:
rama0929 wrote:
If the economy collapses, gold and silver will be the least of your worries, and probably just as worthless.


I don't know, seems to me that 5000 years of monetary history would refute that.


If that were the case, you'd think they would've stayed with the gold standard...

Anyway, if the economy collapses, it will be quite interesting to see you convert your gold for food or services. Can't eat it, can't bathe in it, can't use it to defend my homestead.


I know many Americans that invested in Gold during the 70s, now they are extremely well off
because they kept investing in gold considerably until today. What happened to the americans that
did not? They live under a bridge somewhere.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby mtwilson » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:16 pm

rama0929 wrote:
If that were the case, you'd think they would've stayed with the gold standard...

Anyway, if the economy collapses, it will be quite interesting to see you convert your gold for food or services. Can't eat it, can't bathe in it, can't use it to defend my homestead.


Again, I would respectfully refer you to the well established roll of precious metals documented throughout monetary history. Without having that fundamental reference any further debate would be a waste of time for both of us.

And just to be clear, I am no "gold bug" or metals fanatic. In fact, I could care less about gold or silver ordinarily, but at this particular point in history I see absolutely nothing as secure as a store of real value than precious metals.

Back to the topic of this thread though, a bank issued electronic payment card offers nothing to Peruvians (especially the poor) other than the laudable avoidance of ridiculously long lines to pay one's utility bill. The downside is that more personal information ends up in the hands of banks and the government who can and do use it in a number of distasteful and unscrupulous ways (marketing, tax investigations, solicitations, etc.) and the possibility of losing your digital cash should something go awry.

Yes, I have a bank account myself and yes, I make electronic payments from time to time, but I do so with a clear understanding of the inherent pitfalls in such a system and I take what I consider to be reasonable precautions to protect my privacy and my personal wealth when doing so(I don't keep much cash in a bank). Besides, I certainly cant use any of that at the local farmers market in Tarapoto or in any of the tiendas I frequent.

Honestly, do you think that this electronic payment plan is going to come with any disclosure of the potential downside of its use? Do you believe it will be helpful to the street vendors and the neighborhood mercados? How will it effect those vital economic forces within the community if this sort of bank sponsored payment system gains a foothold and many of the mom and pop merchants are squeezed out of this fragile economic niche? Do you think, just maybe, this is an effort to ease people into the use of credit cards and more sophisticated monetary instruments so they can be sold into debt slavery like every first world nation has? I don't know, but it sounds like just another form of institutional control sold as more convenience to me and personally, I am pretty fed up with that paradigm these days.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:07 pm

falconagain wrote:
I know many Americans that invested in Gold during the 70s, now they are extremely well off
because they kept investing in gold considerably until today. What happened to the americans that
did not? They live under a bridge somewhere.


Right, which has nothing to do with a collapsed economy :wink:
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:13 pm

mtwilson wrote:Honestly, do you think that this electronic payment plan is going to come with any disclosure of the potential downside of its use? Do you believe it will be helpful to the street vendors and the neighborhood mercados? How will it effect those vital economic forces within the community if this sort of bank sponsored payment system gains a foothold and many of the mom and pop merchants are squeezed out of this fragile economic niche? Do you think, just maybe, this is an effort to ease people into the use of credit cards and more sophisticated monetary instruments so they can be sold into debt slavery like every first world nation has? I don't know, but it sounds like just another form of institutional control sold as more convenience to me and personally, I am pretty fed up with that paradigm these days.


Dumb people will lose, smart people will win. Same as it ever was.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby falconagain » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:18 pm

rama0929 wrote:Dumb people will lose, smart people will win. Same as it ever was.


Thank god.

At least nature is free of political correctness.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Jimmy111 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:31 am

The dumb people were the ones who accepted this sort of plan in the first place. Who in their right mind would willingly trade their gold for a piece of plastic and the promiss that it will be there when they need it. This type of plan has failed over and over time and time again throught history. Why should it be different today?

rama0929 wrote:
mtwilson wrote:Honestly, do you think that this electronic payment plan is going to come with any disclosure of the potential downside of its use? Do you believe it will be helpful to the street vendors and the neighborhood mercados? How will it effect those vital economic forces within the community if this sort of bank sponsored payment system gains a foothold and many of the mom and pop merchants are squeezed out of this fragile economic niche? Do you think, just maybe, this is an effort to ease people into the use of credit cards and more sophisticated monetary instruments so they can be sold into debt slavery like every first world nation has? I don't know, but it sounds like just another form of institutional control sold as more convenience to me and personally, I am pretty fed up with that paradigm these days.


Dumb people will lose, smart people will win. Same as it ever was.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:59 pm

No, the dumb people are the ones who accepted this plan that are bad at math. Plastic is fine provided it's used properly. Just like anything else.

Jimmy111 wrote:The dumb people were the ones who accepted this sort of plan in the first place. Who in their right mind would willingly trade their gold for a piece of plastic and the promiss that it will be there when they need it. This type of plan has failed over and over time and time again throught history. Why should it be different today?

rama0929 wrote:
mtwilson wrote:Honestly, do you think that this electronic payment plan is going to come with any disclosure of the potential downside of its use? Do you believe it will be helpful to the street vendors and the neighborhood mercados? How will it effect those vital economic forces within the community if this sort of bank sponsored payment system gains a foothold and many of the mom and pop merchants are squeezed out of this fragile economic niche? Do you think, just maybe, this is an effort to ease people into the use of credit cards and more sophisticated monetary instruments so they can be sold into debt slavery like every first world nation has? I don't know, but it sounds like just another form of institutional control sold as more convenience to me and personally, I am pretty fed up with that paradigm these days.


Dumb people will lose, smart people will win. Same as it ever was.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Jimmy111 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:41 pm

Most of these people cant read. I suppose their math is great thou...

I see huge profits for the banks and many, many much poorer Peruvians
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:47 pm

Image
"If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep."

Jimmy111 wrote:Most of these people cant read. I suppose their math is great thou...

I see huge profits for the banks and many, many much poorer Peruvians
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby mtwilson » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:37 am

rama0929 wrote:"If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep."


Spoken like a true predatory bankster!
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby renodante » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:29 am

"If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep."


not trying to be a jerk, but are you a billionaire by now? because you seem to have complete faith in the american dream and in the ability for anyone to get to that 1% spot by sheer will and cleverness. i mostly agree with you on most points but you don't think the system is just a liiiiittle bit rigged? because if not, again, for a dude with all the financial answers....are you swimming in billions by now?
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Jimmy111 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Here is a pretty good article about the problems that can be encountered using only digital methodes of money. The article is mainly about future economic problems, But even a glitch in the system can cause problems. Just remember that banks operate on a global system. An event in the states or europe can completly lock you out of your funds.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2012/06/20- ... tmare.html
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:53 pm

mtwilson wrote:
rama0929 wrote:"If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep."


Spoken like a true predatory bankster!


Every dollar you borrow, you're going to eventually have to pay back.

Either save up your money, work on your credit so you can borrow at a favorable rate, or borrow at an unfavorable rate, or go without.

No one forced anyone to sign anything. The terms of a loan or a credit card are right there in the agreement, and if you don't like it, you can walk away.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:04 pm

renodante wrote:
"If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep."


not trying to be a jerk, but are you a billionaire by now? because you seem to have complete faith in the american dream and in the ability for anyone to get to that 1% spot by sheer will and cleverness. i mostly agree with you on most points but you don't think the system is just a liiiiittle bit rigged? because if not, again, for a dude with all the financial answers....are you swimming in billions by now?


No, I'm one of the 99% ers. I have no illusions of being a 1%'er. Honestly speaking, I don't have the work ethic to be a billionaire. Hell, I barely have the work ethic to hold down a job in the high 5's, preferring to booze and whore whenever I can... At any rate within that 99% group there is a wide swath of territory between a millionaire, heck, a hundred-thousandaire, and living under a bridge eating beans 2x a day. I could do alright shooting between a hundred-thousandaire and a thousandaire.

Too many sheep in wolves clothing trying to make themselves something that they aren't. Too bad it doesn't work that way. If people want to borrow more than they can afford, go right ahead. Sooner or later, they're going to have to pay the piper. And they have no one to blame but themselves.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby renodante » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:20 pm

preferring to booze and whore whenever I can.


a man after my own heart.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:39 pm

renodante wrote:
preferring to booze and whore whenever I can.


a man after my own heart.


Probably would've been a billionaire by now... But this way is much more fun 8)
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Kelly » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:48 pm

Starting to sound like a Jimmy Buffett song in here....
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:02 pm

Kelly wrote:Starting to sound like a Jimmy Buffett song in here....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL9O0B0gzZE

:mrgreen:
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Kelly » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:45 pm

:lol:

I always preferred "God's Own Drunk" as far as drinking songs go, but what i actually had in mind was...
http://youtu.be/O0W7gXEEbqo

"Made enough money to buy Miami..."
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Jimmy111 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:41 pm

Im not a bible thumper, however the bible is of great use in historical thinking of peoples and cultures long gone
There are verses in the bible for cases just like this. So it goes to show that peoples in the past had numbers placed upon them and got tired of it for some reason or another.

Revelation 13:17

And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name

Just something to think about.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Jimmy111 wrote:Im not a bible thumper, however the bible is of great use in historical thinking of peoples and cultures long gone
There are verses in the bible for cases just like this. So it goes to show that peoples in the past had numbers placed upon them and got tired of it for some reason or another.

Revelation 13:17

And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name

Just something to think about.


What does the bible say about paying taxes? :wink: :D :P
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Jimmy111 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:53 pm

Well,,, If I recall. Jesus paid the temple tax.

However he paid it because he was a foreigner. Not a citizen. Citizens dont pay tax. Only conquered people do.

So you are saying that we are conquered people (slaves) so we should pay taxes??
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:22 pm

Jimmy111 wrote:Well,,, If I recall. Jesus paid the temple tax.

However he paid it because he was a foreigner. Not a citizen. Citizens dont pay tax. Only conquered people do.

So you are saying that we are conquered people (slaves) so we should pay taxes??


Citizens paid taxes.
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Jimmy111 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:06 pm

Matthew 17-24:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"

Matthew 17-25:
"Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?"

Matthew 17-26:
"They tax the people they have conquered," Peter replied. "Well, then," Jesus said, "the citizens are free!
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby Kelly » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:40 pm

Jimmy111 wrote:Im not a bible thumper, however the bible is of great use in historical thinking of peoples and cultures long gone
There are verses in the bible for cases just like this. So it goes to show that peoples in the past had numbers placed upon them and got tired of it for some reason or another.

Revelation 13:17

And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name

Just something to think about.


If I'm not mistaken, that has nothing to do with the past - it's based on prophecy of the end times and the coming of the Antichrist. While there were marks/brands put upon slaves, this mark is something totally different, that will call for renouncing God/Jesus and accepting the "mark of the beast" in order to go about your daily business. But anyone who accepts the mark will not be allowed into heaven.

Point being, that verse isn't talking about peoples in the past getting numbers put on them and later rejecting it; it's prophecy of things to come.

"For it is a human number, and that number is 666"
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Re: Program for the Unbanked Launched in Peru

Postby rama0929 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:00 pm

Jimmy111 wrote:Matthew 17-24:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"

Matthew 17-25:
"Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?"

Matthew 17-26:
"They tax the people they have conquered," Peter replied. "Well, then," Jesus said, "the citizens are free!


http://www.unrv.com/economy/roman-taxes.php

In the early days of the Roman Republic, public taxes consisted of modest assessments on owned wealth and property. The tax rate under normal circumstances was 1% and sometimes would climb as high as 3% in situations such as war. These modest taxes were levied against land, homes and other real estate, slaves, animals, personal items and monetary wealth. Taxes were collected from individuals and, at times, payments could be refunded by the treasury for excess collections.


By 167 B.C. the Republic had enriched itself greatly through a series of conquests. Gains such as the silver and gold mines in Spain created an excellent source of revenue for the state, and a much larger tax base through its provincial residents. By this time, Rome no longer needed to levy a tax against its citizens in Italy and looked only to the provinces for collections.

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