HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

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americorps
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby americorps » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:50 pm

I realize you are unphased by the call that you have not offered a single bit of stubstance because your arguments are based on emotional rhetoric and you have not once addressed the failures of the Chavez regime.

not once.

It is like discussing religion, you do not need facts, you go on faith.

the BBC obit was one of the most damning pieces I have ever seen on his failed economic policies and his abuse and misuse of oil in a way that will profoundly hurt his country.

His model was not sustainable.

and if you honestly are going to try and tell me there is no credible evidence, of which much has been presented here over and over again, but his opression of the press and the opposition, then there will never be enough for you.

Because you refuse that wich you do not agree with.

I was brought up to not have that luxery, it was instilled in me the value to evalute the entirity of the evidence before forming an opinion, not just the evidence that i felt like listening too and ignore the rest.

to each his own, I guess.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20795781


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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:52 pm

This is not TREASON? (Financed by the US).

In April 2002, the opposition coalition, an assortment of the super-rich and others whose privilege was curtailed by Chávez, launched a coup. A cabal of military officers, the police, and almost every television and radio station lined up against Chávez, who was detained by the coup plotters. Mass protest caused the coup to fail and Chávez was returned to power. This incident highlights the fact that prior to most of Chávez’s most radical reforms, the opposition was more than willing to use extralegal methods to preserve their special privileges.

http://www.answercoalition.org/national ... havez.html
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:55 pm

americorps wrote:I realize you are unphased by the call that you have not offered a single bit of stubstance because your arguments are based on emotional rhetoric and you have not once addressed the failures of the Chavez regime.

not once.

It is like discussing religion, you do not need facts, you go on faith.

the BBC obit was one of the most damning pieces I have ever seen on his failed economic policies and his abuse and misuse of oil in a way that will profoundly hurt his country.

His model was not sustainable.

and if you honestly are going to try and tell me there is no credible evidence, of which much has been presented here over and over again, but his opression of the press and the opposition, then there will never be enough for you.

Because you refuse that wich you do not agree with.

I was brought up to not have that luxery, it was instilled in me the value to evalute the entirity of the evidence before forming an opinion, not just the evidence that i felt like listening too and ignore the rest.

to each his own, I guess.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20795781




Americorp? Where are the crimes you mentioned? you are quoting economic policy from the BBC. Please verify your claim of crimes? His only crime is socialism and helping the poor. Human Right? how much more Humane can you be? (Helping the poor).
Last edited by tupacperu on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby americorps » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:59 pm

i give up.

You are stuck


so many crimes have been documented against him, and others, that you seem to be blinded into thinking that since others also commited crimes, that chavez crimes do not exist (wondering why you have not moved your family to VZ).

It is the same absurd comment as saying, you know, sure hitler killed a bunch of people had is army rape women as a war crime and did a bunch of other bad things, but gosh darn it, look at all the charity work he did for the orphans, and how he helped so many poor out of poverty, he should be sainted, not villified.

That is an argument I consider failing of humanity. No matter what good things can be documented, they do not excuse horrible violent violations of human rights.

If a guy kills somebody I love, but also saves a thousand orphans from a fire, your suggestion is that the murder should be ignored.

I dont feel that way.

If you are honestly going to try and keep a staight face and claim he did not harm, turture, jail and otherwise assault the opposition and the press, then I just have to wish you the best of luck in your fantasy land.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:07 pm

americorps wrote:i give up.

You are stuck


so many crimes have been documented against him, and others, that you seem to be blinded into thinking that since others also commited crimes, that chavez crimes do not exist (wondering why you have not moved your family to VZ).

It is the same absurd comment as saying, you know, sure hitler killed a bunch of people had is army rape women as a war crime and did a bunch of other bad things, but gosh darn it, look at all the charity work he did for the orphans, and how he helped so many poor out of poverty, he should be sainted, not villified.

That is an argument I consider failing of humanity. No matter what good things can be documented, they do not excuse horrible violent violations of human rights.

If a guy kills somebody I love, but also saves a thousand orphans from a fire, your suggestion is that the murder should be ignored.

I dont feel that way.

If you are honestly going to try and keep a staight face and claim he did not harm, turture, jail and otherwise assault the opposition and the press, then I just have to wish you the best of luck in your fantasy land.



Americorp, you seem to be quoting rhetoric. I am sending articles and you seem to not acknowledge. So I give up also. Agree not to Agree. PEACE
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby Josh2U » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:07 pm

I was raised to always look for the good in people.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby americorps » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:16 pm

Josh2U wrote:I was raised to always look for the good in people.


at the expense of the truth?
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby Josh2U » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:24 pm

I certainly would not buy lies.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby Bobby » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:49 pm

Whoever wants to find reliable and unreliable sources of information about "crimes" (e.g., from NPO, medias, lawyers, analysts, vz citizens, etc.) committed by the Chavez administration can easily find them googling it using simple key words in English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch, Italian, and maybe Quechua. To deny or ignore these documented facts reavels a very, very, but very dogmatic, unconstructive, and bad faith attitude and of course a lost ocasion to share documented opinions on the meaning of Chavez in Latin America.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:36 am

Chavez is alive and the people of Venezuela have spoken.
Democratically elected Maduro (Chavez's sucessor). 6 more years :)
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby americorps » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:11 am

only if you choose to dismiss the 2800 registered cases of voter fraud especially the national police locking out legally certified vote count watchers at polling places all over the country in what can only be subscribed as a government sponsored election tampering as documented by opposition as well as international polling observers and press.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby gerard » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:39 am

Chavez is alive and the people of Venezuela have spoken.
Democratically elected Maduro (Chavez's sucessor). 6 more years


But didn't 60% of the electorate not vote for Maduro? Is that a strong enough mandate to continue the revolution, or should it signal that some compromise might be in order?
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:36 am

americorps wrote:only if you choose to dismiss the 2800 registered cases of voter fraud especially the national police locking out legally certified vote count watchers at polling places all over the country in what can only be subscribed as a government sponsored election tampering as documented by opposition as well as international polling observers and press.



Please qualify your statements with a link to a news source. I will glady review it and responded :)
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:56 am

gerard wrote:
Chavez is alive and the people of Venezuela have spoken.
Democratically elected Maduro (Chavez's sucessor). 6 more years


But didn't 60% of the electorate not vote for Maduro? Is that a strong enough mandate to continue the revolution, or should it signal that some compromise might be in order?


a win is a win :)
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:58 am

americorps wrote:only if you choose to dismiss the 2800 registered cases of voter fraud especially the national police locking out legally certified vote count watchers at polling places all over the country in what can only be subscribed as a government sponsored election tampering as documented by opposition as well as international polling observers and press.



The Carter Center, an election watchdog led by former US president Jimmy Carter, has praised Venezuela's balloting system.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 79826.html

Aljazeera News article: On Venezuela Voting and Audits

"We had at least 17 audits carried out on the electoral system in which technicians from the various political parties take part," he said. "They test the software and the ink. The process is transparent."

'Best process in the world'

Venezuela uses automated machines to tabulate votes, rather than hand-written ballots. During the last presidential election in October 2012, the Socialist Party won by more than 10 percentage points.

The Carter Center, an election watchdog led by former US president Jimmy Carter, has praised Venezuela's balloting system. "Of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world," Carter said last year.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby americorps » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:01 pm

The charges over possible election fraud and other irregularities have also led to calls from former leaders of nine countries and 350 lawmakers from 13 nations around the world to Venezuela’s National Electoral Council (CNE) demanding a fair process.


http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/04/10/ine ... 41893.html

William Cárdenas, spokesperson for the so-called Democratic Platform group, said voting fraud in his country has always been an issue because it is impossible to verify the results from a system that was set up by the late President Hugo Chávez.

Luis Eduardo Manresa, spokesman for Capriles’ Democratic Unity Committee (MUD) in Spain, said that the Venezuelan opposition has proof that Maduro-backed militants intimidated many voters at polling stations across the nation.


http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/04/15/ine ... 85991.html
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:06 pm

americorps wrote:
The charges over possible election fraud and other irregularities have also led to calls from former leaders of nine countries and 350 lawmakers from 13 nations around the world to Venezuela’s National Electoral Council (CNE) demanding a fair process.


http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/04/10/ine ... 41893.html

William Cárdenas, spokesperson for the so-called Democratic Platform group, said voting fraud in his country has always been an issue because it is impossible to verify the results from a system that was set up by the late President Hugo Chávez.

Luis Eduardo Manresa, spokesman for Capriles’ Democratic Unity Committee (MUD) in Spain, said that the Venezuelan opposition has proof that Maduro-backed militants intimidated many voters at polling stations across the nation.


http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/04/15/ine ... 85991.html



These are Alleged actions? are they not?

This accusation is coming from both parties: (your article Americorp)
Widespread concerns of voting fraud and other irregularities have emerged after the two major candidates accused each other of trying to manipulate the outcome of Sunday’s presidential elections in differing ways.


But what we cannot deny: via WikiLeaks:

In recently released diplomatic cables, WikiLeaks reports the US strategy in Venezuela involves: "Strengthening Democratic Institutions, 2) Penetrating Chavez' Political Base, 3) Dividing Chavismo, 4) Protecting Vital US business, and 5) Isolating Chavez internationally."

The US has spent millions of dollars interfering in Venezuela's political process with the "desired effect of pulling them [government supporters] slowly away from Chavismo", the diplomatic cables reveal.



Meddling is not DEMOCRACY, but no problem it is just the US :-).
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:17 pm

Spain on Monday called on Venezuelan election officials to conduct a rapid recount of Sunday’s presidential vote to find a quick solution to “the severe polarization” that exists in the country.


We would not allow another country to request a recount on the US vote. (Bush vs Gore : Florida count).


Think I will become a Latin America Political Consultant

5 for 5, not bad:

1 Humala
2. Villiaran
3. Chavez
4. Maduro
5 Correa
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby JoshuS » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:34 pm

There has been 3,435 national electoral observers, 170 international accompaniers, 40 accompaniers from the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR), 30 from the Inter-American Organizations (UNIORE), and 40 accompaners from different political parties participated as monitors. This is not mentioned in the main stream garbage news.

Some other voices have spoken also. A Scottish parliamentarian said: “From the opening of the polls this morning, we have observed a very efficient, secure and sophisticated electoral system.” “The people of all parties who we spoke to praised the way the election was run and raised no concerns. The poll was free, fair and robust.”

An european unionist Adrian Weir said: “Nothing I have seen suggests anything other than a Nicolas Maduro win. The ballot was free and fair. The count was equally transparent and signed off by party witnesses including those of the Caprile’s coalition, the MUD. I’ve witnessed a robust system.”

Actor/screenwriter Andy de La Tour said: “The international observers are satisfied that the election has been free, fair and transparent. Voting went smoothly and the opposition witnesses in the polling stations told us they that they were satisfied that the voting had been fair.”

Venezuela Solidarity Campaign’s Francisco Dominguez said: “Once again, Venezuela has shown to the world that it has a vibrant and healthy democracy where both sides can air their views.Capriles and his MUD coalition should accept that the people have again given their verdict.”

The rejection of the results is a political tactic as old as empire...make a lot of noise calling foul, fraud, illegitimacy, all amplified by the garbage, propaganda main stream media repeated by the usual parrots, to create an environment of uncertainty and destabilization, they did it in Kosovo (Otpor), Ukraine, Georgia, etc under the US sponsored color revolutions. Washington expectedly, most likely will cry foul and fraud too, it should not surprised.

Even prior to the elections the accusations already were being shout by the Capriles camp, the so-called opposition regarding the validity of the results and regarding the procedures of the actual election, despite the international effort to propup Capriles and the opposition, it has been so far a failure. Capriles is not liked by the Venezuelan people because they understand that Capriles and the opposition means a return to colonialism and to subjugation under the thumb of the United States. This is a historical fact, conveniently ignored by the pro-imperialists.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby gerard » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:49 pm

Capriles is not liked by the Venezuelan people


38.6% of Venezuelans disagree with you, and 21.3% apparently have no opinion, which might suggest they don't dislike him all that much - not enough to vote against him anyway. That's 59.9% overall.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby Bobby » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:32 pm

Despite some clear non democtratic actions made by "birdy Maduro" (documented by most respectable International organizations) I think Maduro would have anyway won this election.

However considering a time frame perspective the positive conclusion I draw is that Chavism without Chavez seems to be a dead end model. 15 years ago Chavez had over 80% of citizens voting form him and now Maduro very hardly reaches 50% . Spending the petro dollars in a economically and socialy sick society (high inflation, declining purchasing power, high crime rate, etc.) isn't enough for some middle class and poorer venezuelans to blindly approve Chavez and birdy Maduro's populist idealogy. The bubble in Venezuela is deflating...
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby chi chi » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:17 pm

Let's hope that Mr. Maduro continues the good work of his predecessor.

Hugo Chavez was a hero. He fought for the well being of the Venezueleans till the end. Even when he was very sick, he kept fighting for them.

22.jpg
22.jpg (7.94 KiB) Viewed 2913 times
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby panman » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:31 am

chi chi wrote:Let's hope that Mr. Maduro continues the good work of his predecessor.

Hugo Chavez was a hero. He fought for the well being of the Venezueleans till the end. Even when he was very sick, he kept fighting for them.

22.jpg


With such political views, no wonder it took the Belgians 535 days to elect their last prime minister :lol:
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:33 pm

chi chi wrote:Let's hope that Mr. Maduro continues the good work of his predecessor.

Hugo Chavez was a hero. He fought for the well being of the Venezueleans till the end. Even when he was very sick, he kept fighting for them.

22.jpg



Good point Chi-Chi, in total agreement.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby americorps » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:35 pm

and yet crime was up,and the highest crime rate in latin america, poverty only declined on paper because he changed the mathamatical formula for defining poverty, and the oil infrustructure is crumbling and only able to operate at 40% leaving an expensive mess for the next generation to clean up.

How kind he was to do that. Funny he hates bush, he is more like him than I thought.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:54 am

Setting the record straight about the presidential elections 2013 in Venezuela.



Lets talk FACTS instead or rhetoric:

10 FACTS you should know about the Venezuelan presidential election on April 14 -

1/10 Maduro won, Capriles lost - by a narrow margin

2/10 there were international observers and delegations from Europe, UNASUR, OAS, etc

3/10 all countries recognised results (except US) including right wing Spain, Mexico,Colombia, Chile

4/10 voting is electronic and there is a back-up paper receipt which is then put in box

5/10 in all polling stations there were witnesses from Capriles and Maduro campaigns who signed minutes

6/10 54% ballot boxes chosen randomly were opened & checked against electronic voting - no discrepancies

7/10 opposition candidate Capriles has NOT filed request for full recount with National Electoral Council

8/10 opposition candidate Capriles has not filed any of 3,200 alleged election irregularities with CNE

9/10 7 people were killed by opposition supporters in 1 night of rioting, all of them PSUV or Bolivarian

10/10 "democratic" opposition supporters attacked CDI health clinics, Simoncito nurseries, PSUV offices etc
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tupacperu » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:58 am

Let's not divert away the original claim of Venezuela not being democratic.

The arguments are all over the place: Economy/Crime/etc..... These thing occur in any democratic country.

#JustTheFactsMan!
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby americorps » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:56 am

there are now 3,200 documented causes of voting irregularites that the government says they will not bother to investigate, many of which are being confirmed by the media including

Vote count watchers from the oppositiion not being allowed to view the talleys

Boxes of votes never being open or countred

Votes being burned.

If the chavistes had any morals or regard for the people of venezuela, they would have no fear to investigate.

They dont, they are crooks with fools who follow them.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby Bobby » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:52 pm

For those who read Spanish here is an interesting news article based on facts published by La Nacion on how democratic is Maduro and his birds:

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1573566-tension-en-el-congreso-venezolano-en-medio-de-la-crisis

The bubble is deflating more quickly than expected. Hope no big riots will come out of this.
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby tomsax » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:20 pm

I assumed he would win by a big margin so soon after Chavez's death. That result is quite a surprise!
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Re: HUGO CHAVEZ DIED

Postby Bobby » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:01 pm

tomsax wrote:I assumed he would win by a big margin so soon after Chavez's death. That result is quite a surprise!


Abslolutely Maduro (Chavez) lost between 650 and 1 million votes in 6 months that went over to Capriles! Many analysts are talking about the "beginning of the end" for this regime.

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