Yes/No vote - What's she done?

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Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby rubble » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:08 am

I admit to not knowing a lot regarding this weekend's Yes/No vote regarding the Mayor of Lima.
Is it simply, as I have read, that the Mayor has upset the apple cart, by being honest and hardworking, and thus going against the grain regarding most politicians (both here and abroad)? Or is there more to it?

My view, for what it's worth, and bear in mind I'm not in Lima, is that it is a complete waste of time and money. Time and money that could be better spent improving the lot of the average Limeno.


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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby Kelly » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:26 pm

rubble wrote:My view, for what it's worth, and bear in mind I'm not in Lima, is that it is a complete waste of time and money. Time and money that could be better spent improving the lot of the average Limeno.


imo, this is a pretty accurate view. Considering that Villaran only has about a year left to her term anyway, and that she's not done anything "wrong" (she has made some mistakes, but done nothing corrupt that I've heard of) this is a huge waste of time and money.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby chi chi » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:59 pm

Kelly wrote: this is a huge waste of time and money.


That's what politics is all about.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby richorozco » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:19 pm

Well....think about Politics in a 3rd world country where corruption is rampant (President Garcia left Peru with upwards of $600M the first time around, $300M+ the 2nd time around, etc....where Politicians have millions of US dollars).

If the current mayor of Lima is not making great works (think Lima water park, over-priced bridges, etc...) then not many people are getting shady contracts, kickbacks, etc... This is not good for the people used to making millions (yes, millions of US $) on corruption.

Do you think any Politician really cares about the poor in Lima? Why would they? They don't seem to care about cleaning up the streets in Lima nor do they seem to care about paving new streets and/or sidewalks. What about gun control?

Just like the US, but in Peru things are done blatantly (that is, corruption exists and the Politicians know that nothing will happen to them.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby chi chi » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:43 pm

richorozco wrote:Well....think about Politics in a 3rd world country where corruption is rampant Just like the US, but in Peru things are done blatantly (that is, corruption exists and the Politicians know that nothing will happen to them.


Not only in third world countries. Corruption is just as bad in Europe and the US. Probably even worser.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby richorozco » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:40 pm

True....corruption exists everywhere. However, in Peru the politicians are "sin verguenza".

At least in Europe and the US, the politicians at least try to play it off and it is not so evident. There are lots of paper trails and financial engineering that are only uncovered many, many years later, require a whistle blower to uncover it, or some sort of investigative reporter who knows what he or she is truly doing.

In the US one pays taxes, but at least you have nice rest areas with toilet paper and maps, streets are clean of garbage, you have an opportunity to collect unemployment if needed, you can get food assistance if you need it, etc.... In Peru, you don't get anything!!!!! Yet you pay 18% sales Tax?????

Corruption is more extreme in 3rd world countries and the worst part about it is that it is blatant corruption!!!!

Just in Illinois (US), we have Rod Blagojevich (former Governor) in Prison, Jesse Jackson Junior & his wife will be going to prison in a few months & give up their $1M+ home, and a Chicago politician (Mr. Beavers or Bievers ..) currently in court since the FBI has investigated and learned that he spent $500k at a Casino for the past 2 years.

Now, tell me if small-time corruption such as the cases in Chicago, Illinois would ever get to court if they occurred in Lima, Peru and the politicians were Pitucos & Apristas?

There is a reason why many people love to live in US and European countries .... fortunately, there are other countries (i.e. Peru) where your US dollar and/or Euro are worth much more & you will be treated like some sort of God after you made a great living in the US or Europe, obtained a fabulous education, & enjoyed the wealth & civility of 1st world countries....
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby TShadow » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:17 pm

fortunately, there are other countries (i.e. Peru) where your US dollar and/or Euro are worth much more & you will be treated like some sort of God


Not for very long anymore, at least not when you don't bring a lot of $$$ into the country.

Also in Europe there are not so many places left where you still can live with a good social welfare system. There are Germany, Scandinavia and Swiss, and they don't like foreigners very much. Italy has a corruption worse than Peru, also their Mafia is getting stronger than ever. Spain is coming up straight with their scandals and French are not far behind. You can say what you want about the USA, but it still offers many opportunities most other countries do not offer.

Latin countries like Peru are very chaotic and I guess they always will be, they like it complicated and have problems to get matters straight, but their politicians are champions when it comes to play dirty games,

Look at the end result of the Revocatoria. The mayor and most of her left wing fellow party members are as incapable as its can get. Politicians give a damn about peoples money and how it could have been better spend. At the end the mayor remains, but the members of her party have to go, members of the PPC will replace them and the mayor can't decide nothing anymore but will take the responsibility for what will go wrong. That was the real game they wanted to play and the not very smart major and most of the people did not get it.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby chi chi » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:49 pm

TShadow wrote:Also in Europe there are not so many places left where you still can live with a good social welfare system. There are Germany, Scandinavia and Swiss, and they don't like foreigners very much. You can say what you want about the USA, but it still offers many opportunities most other countries do not offer.


Belgium has the best wellfare system in the world. Even so, that you are often better off on wellfare than when working.
Recently, the wellfare payments have been raised again. This will be covered by charging the working people more tax.
The minimum wage is 1000 euros net. The wellfare payments are on average between 1250 and 1540 euros a month.
Free education, free university, free healthcare and high pensions.

For foreigners it's even better. Belgian citizens have to work at least 1 year before they can avail of the full wellfare benefits. Foreigners only have to work 1 DAY.

But the best thing is to be illegal. Then you get all those benefits from day 1. No need to work.
If you want to apply for social housing then you are on average 10 years on the waiting list.
But if you are illegal then you get social housing or hotel accomodation from day 1. If not you are entitled to 500 euros a day compensation.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5d6_1267711138

It takes years to process an asylum case. (Unless people are terror suspects that are wanted by the US. They get asylum immediately and a new identity. As they are unlikely to get a fair trail in the US and there's always a small chance that they might get the death penalty which is unhuman)

99% get granted asylum for compasionate reason as their case took too long to process.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby TShadow » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:39 pm

But the best thing is to be illegal


Interesting. Wonder what kind of paradise it will become and why are they so open. Italy has a lot of illegal people who are employed by criminal organizations as there is no work and no social system. They might consider to export them to Belgium.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby tupacperu » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:35 am

rubble wrote:I admit to not knowing a lot regarding this weekend's Yes/No vote regarding the Mayor of Lima.
Is it simply, as I have read, that the Mayor has upset the apple cart, by being honest and hardworking, and thus going against the grain regarding most politicians (both here and abroad)? Or is there more to it?

My view, for what it's worth, and bear in mind I'm not in Lima, is that it is a complete waste of time and money. Time and money that could be better spent improving the lot of the average Limeno.


Democracy in action, not a waste of money. They would not have spent it anyway on improving the lives of LImenos.

She has set policies against the working class and independent business owners.
-Shutdown routes to public transportation where the Metropolitano train runs
-Cut hours Nightclubs and discotecs, serving alcohol , putting many out of jobs and cutting owners profits.
-Passing laws preventing Lunch Trucks from operating on the streets, to the protest of restaurant owners.

She is leftist but has sided with the elite in Lima.
Name something significant that she has done for Lima?

In an attempt to bring order to chaos, she has targeted Cab drivers, combi drivers and small independent businessmen.

Let's not forget La Parada: Lima Mayor acknowledged that she authorized the operation that ended with two dead and over 100 injured. But he denied that the measure has been improvised.

She took a vacation know the operation was about to be executed.
-
Last edited by tupacperu on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby americorps » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:50 am

tupac,

could you have any less accurate rendition of her work?

More Peruvians die in bus and combi accidents than do people of any other country in south America. Is it really a crime againts the poor to protect their lives from unsafe busses?

She did not prohibit lunch trucks, they held them to safety standards. The trucks did not want to confirm.

She did not offer anti business legislation, she demanded that businesses participate legitimately, not informally, pay their taxes, and operate within health and safety standards and on land that they have a legal right to use, not to occupy land owned by someone else.

you advocate a free for all, however, I remember your point of view was very diferent when we were talking about someone ilegally occupying your land.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby tupacperu » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:13 pm

americorps wrote:tupac,

could you have any less accurate rendition of her work?

More Peruvians die in bus and combi accidents than do people of any other country in south America. Is it really a crime againts the poor to protect their lives from unsafe busses?

She did not prohibit lunch trucks, they held them to safety standards. The trucks did not want to confirm.

She did not offer anti business legislation, she demanded that businesses participate legitimately, not informally, pay their taxes, and operate within health and safety standards and on land that they have a legal right to use, not to occupy land owned by someone else.

you advocate a free for all, however, I remember your point of view was very diferent when we were talking about someone ilegally occupying your land.


Please give me the location of one lunch/food truck in Lima, Please. :-).
They are completely banned in San Miguel also.

1. Lunch Trucks are prohibited. Go to city hall and try to get a license. We did (first hand).
- THey are only permitted at Feria Mistura once per year for any type of food.

2. Closing bars at 2:00AM. Personally know servers, They no longer needed and out of work.
3. Municipality of Lima appealed a ruling that allowed transit route for combis on the Metropolitan
4. La Parada was not about invasion. The property was owned by the city for many years, which allowed the vendors to sell their goods/ There was an attempt to displace vendors to convert the property into a police compound
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby americorps » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:13 pm

it is very short sighted and in fact cruel to Peruvians to pretend that eliminating combis is about eliminating jobs. it is about improving publich health and safety. Decreasing smog, road deaths, congestion, unsafe vehicles on the road. You are correct, people wil loose jobs but it is highly dishonhest to say the motive is about loosing jobs, it is about protecting public safety, a job of the mayor.

Your information about who owns the land is wrong, you are deeply confused by the press you choose to follow and accept hook, line and sinker without bothering to research. THe land was owned, and was not being used, and former corrupt governments allowed it, to confuse that with meaning the land did not have an owner is simply that, confusion.

You seem against correcting past wrongs and in favor of stealing land from the rich and giving it to the poor. I think that is a fools mission and there are better ways to decrease poverty in increasing employment without resorting to those tactics.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby chi chi » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:38 pm

tupacperu wrote:Shutdown routes to public transportation where the Metropolitano train runs


People prefer the Metropolitana but it's overcrowded during rush hours. More buses will have to be introduced before the other buses can be banned from using the same route.

tupacperu wrote:Closing bars at 2:00AM.


A good idea. Better making it 11pm. After that time, only problems occur in bars. And nobody has to sit in a bar till late at night. The next day, they have to go to work early.
And there's no public transport late at night so if bars are open after the last buses then people go drink driving.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby dh2012 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:32 pm

It was a big waste of time and money but many middle to upper class citizens are not happy with Villaran either, to imply that its just a rabble from la parada and combi thugs who dont like her is wrong.

I commend her for trying to improve public transport, it really does improve the quality of peoples lives when you can travel comfortable around a city, take Medellin for example.

The whole idea about combis reminds me of a book what is history? in it the author talks about ultimate causation. Take the case of a combi that crashes and injures a pasanger, who has blame? the driver? the corrupt poilce? the legions of pasagners who used the combi before and said nothing? the shameless person/people who gave them the false document/s? the government? or the passenger himself? or maybe everyone.

A combi is not inhernetly evil, sure its undignified and uncomfortable but many hundreds of people are killed by regular buses each year or moreover by the aformentioned causation, i was witness to a major bus crash in Lima a few months ago and 31 people were injurred some for sure would never be the same again, the same company crashed again a few weeks later and has regularly nearly ran me over.

Bigger busses will sadly just mean bigger crashes in my opinion, just changing the busses will not solve the root cause.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby panman » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:06 am

Combis are a fine form of transport, the problem is that the majority of the ones in use are dirty filthy vehicles, which should have been condemed to the breakers yard years ago. That coupled with the fact that most of the drivers are ignorant fools makes them, on the whole, death traps.
So why not simply enforce the current laws and make the conform to the requirements of the revision technica and throw the book at the drivers every time they make a simple mistake behind the wheel.
They could be a great source of income to municipalities if only the current laws were enforced, if not why waste time and money passing the laws in the first place.
A law/rule without a consequence isn't worth the paper it's written on.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby chi chi » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:26 am

panman wrote:Combis are a fine form of transport, the problem is that the majority of the ones in use are dirty filthy vehicles, which should have been condemed to the breakers yard years ago. So why not simply enforce the current laws and make the conform to the requirements of the revision technica.


The reason why they drive old vehicles is because they don't have the money to buy new ones. They don't get financial help from the goverment.

The other way to raise money to buy new vehicles is by raising the fares but that's impossible as most commuters won't be able to afford the fares.

The Metropolitana has new buses because they get sponsored by the government.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby panman » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:14 am

chi chi wrote:
panman wrote:Combis are a fine form of transport, the problem is that the majority of the ones in use are dirty filthy vehicles, which should have been condemed to the breakers yard years ago. So why not simply enforce the current laws and make the conform to the requirements of the revision technica.


The reason why they drive old vehicles is because they don't have the money to buy new ones. They don't get financial help from the goverment.

The other way to raise money to buy new vehicles is by raising the fares but that's impossible as most commuters won't be able to afford the fares.

The Metropolitana has new buses because they get sponsored by the government.


The companies behind the combies do have the money to purchase new vehicles, although it it would reduce their profit margin or of course result in an increase in fares but the fact of the matter is that these vehicles are, on the whole unfit to be on the road. Death traps in the hands of maniacs and would not be there if it weren't for some shady dealings.
Who are the individuals who hold the concessions is the question I would like answering. Perhaps there might be one or two names that we recognize if they were made public and didn't operate from behind closed doors.
You might find this article interesting reading.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... l-election
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby Kelly » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:03 pm

Susana didn't come up with the idea of clearing out La Parada. Mayors/govt has been promising to ''do something about it' for years. She's the only one who actually did. The biggest problem was that there was a mafia controlling the area, getting 'protection money' from the vendors, and that mafia didn't want anybody rocking their boat. That's why they paid thugs to come in a fight when the police came.

Now that the move has been made, the vendors are in a safe mercado and have regular security, and aren't obligated to pay mob money to keep them safe.

She may have been naive in thinking that there wouldn't be backlash when the police went in - but her motives were not corrupt; it was an ugly, dirty and unsafe area and needed to be cleaned up.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby falconagain » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:30 pm

Kelly wrote:Susana didn't come up with the idea of clearing out La Parada. Mayors/govt has been promising to ''do something about it' for years. She's the only one who actually did. The biggest problem was that there was a mafia controlling the area, getting 'protection money' from the vendors, and that mafia didn't want anybody rocking their boat. That's why they paid thugs to come in a fight when the police came.

Now that the move has been made, the vendors are in a safe mercado and have regular security, and aren't obligated to pay mob money to keep them safe.

She may have been naive in thinking that there wouldn't be backlash when the police went in - but her motives were not corrupt; it was an ugly, dirty and unsafe area and needed to be cleaned up.


Actually the problem was that she was the first major to send the police without any weapons to
pacify an area that was full of known violent criminals. The outcome was obvious. Many of the
police officers tried to sue her because she had no regard for their personal safety.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby americorps » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:52 pm

falconagain,

The anti villaran people keep repeating that, but it is not true. She asked the national police to go in and they did and they decided how to manage it. To blame villaran for the failure of the national police director, who has since resigned, is a baseless accusation.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby falconagain » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:14 pm

Villaran has declared many times to the press that every operation under her administration
will be made with non lethal weapons. The chief of police was removed due to the excess
of criminal incidents within Lima as a city (the recent notaria incident specially).

Whenever there is a any kind of raid, the final approval of the details goes with the
Mayor of the city (so far this has not changed in 20 years, Andrade, Castaneda, Belmont
, they all declared this during their administrations, that they have the las word of what
kind of weapons and how raids are made). The Chief of police can only say whether he
agrees or not but he is not responsible for raids coordinating by the Municipalidad.
The administration regulations have not changed so far. So it is the fault of Villaran, even
if the former PNP Boss wants to take the blame (which he cannot).
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby americorps » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:53 pm

They mayor of lima does not control the national police department.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby QuietDeer » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:55 pm

Hello - new member here. Haven't read all of this link, but up 'til now am pleased that the converstaion has kept civil! Congratulations to the 'posters' who can converse without 'name calling' and hateful language. Regarding the subject matter - obviously we will never all agree, but it is useful to point out when someone is lying or repeating a lie. A little research can often reveal the truth. Thanks - Paul
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby falconagain » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:54 pm

I
americorps wrote:They mayor of lima does not control the national police department.


I did not say that. In every raid for relocation or removal of street vendors the major is the one
who setups the whole operation, the police chief and the ministry of interior only coordinate.
The major decides the time, the amount of people, the clothes and implements to be use and
the type of weapons and the major holds the ultimate responsibility for all these decisions.
Depending on the situation the only thing that the Chief of Police and the Ministry of Interior
can do is offer advice, provide extra man power, or say No to the operation for their personnel.
But the logistics decisions for even the amount of force to be displayed is up to the Major which
is why she signs a document making herself responsible of the raid and the Police and Ministry
of Interior appear as coordinators. There is some leeway on how things are handled on site.
But the chief of police cannot order arbitrarily to use weapons or non lethal weapons, that
decision still remains with that woman which is why she admitted full responsibility for all
actions taken by the police over the news.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby rubble » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:54 pm

Tupac wrote

"Democracy in action, not a waste of money. They would not have spent it anyway on improving the lives of LImenos."

IMO, I think it's actually an abuse of democracy.

On the one hand, you have a law designed to allow the electrate to escape taking resposibilty for a decision they make. This is Peru, so no real suprise there. Taking responsibilty is not the done thing here.

On the other, a bunch of sore losers can create problems for the Mayor because they're no longer getting their share of the pie. Democracy my arse! Imagine, would the people from one of the pubelo jovennes have the money to mount a year long campaign to oust the Mayor if they had a gripe. I think not.

Is it a coincidence that, the first time you get a mayor in who's not, "one of the boys", this law is invoked (in Lima)?

This whole affair has meant a waste of money and, more importantly, time and energy.

I'm not in Lima, so my opinion is based on what I've gleened from the news and from family living in Lima.
I'd be interested to know how expats would've voted had they been able.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby falconagain » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:48 pm

Villaran is the first major of Lima as a city. But before we had some district majors that
were women that had no problems in their administration. Now in regards to the revocation
law, it is true that is useless to some degree.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby rubble » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:02 pm

Falconagain

Sorry for any misunderstanding, but 'one of the boys' doesn't refer to her sex, it means to be part of the same group or have the same aims.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby fanning » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:08 pm

rubble wrote:I'd be interested to know how expats would've voted had they been able.

I voted NO 40 times ( My first time voting in Peru .. )
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby chi chi » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:30 pm

fanning wrote:
rubble wrote:I'd be interested to know how expats would've voted had they been able.


99.99% of expats live in the provinces and don't care about what's going on in Lima.
They enjoy the nice weather all year round and enjoying to very clean and safe streets and beautifull scenery.
They sleep with their windows open and front door unlocked and sit on their terrace in front of their home till late at night whilst people in Lima can't leave their home after dark and when the leave during the day they are likely to find their home burglared when the get back.

They should get someone like Rudy Guiliani to run Lima. Someone who is willing to do something for his overpaid pay package.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby americorps » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:14 pm

chi chi wrote:99.99% of expats live in the provinces .



false
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby adrian Thorne » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:22 pm

I voted "NO" for every entry, one reason only Villaran has been doing an amazing job. The only people who do not agree are showing their true colours. (K) you are wasting your time with the super troll.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby Philipc4u59 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:58 am

Politics - anywhere, is a difficult "game" to excell at.
I ventured into in the US; didn't enjoy as it was expected that I "kiss ass" - NOT ME!
When you do what is BEST for the entire entity you represent; those that expect FAVORS tend to be upset!!!

I respect this woman who seems to be leading Lima to a "better life for ALL..."; not just the "fat cats".

Philip :roll:
falconagain
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby falconagain » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:32 am

Without any regidores she cannot implement many actions as a major.
She will go dow in history as the most incompetent major in Peruvian History.
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americorps
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby americorps » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:03 am

falconagain wrote:Without any regidores she cannot implement many actions as a major.
She will go dow in history as the most incompetent major in Peruvian History.



I suggest that the goofballs behind the recall will be reviewed as failures.

They were caught up in one after another case of fraud,

They paid for the signatures with food, illegally,

They did not bother to show up for the debate they demanded.

They lost.

Generaly, if the governing body fails to pass the policies of the mayor, while her leadership can be questioned, i suggest their inability to act will reflect as much on their corruption and ineptness than it will transfer to the mayor who was supported by the voters.
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby falconagain » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:27 pm

americorps wrote:
falconagain wrote:Without any regidores she cannot implement many actions as a major.
She will go dow in history as the most incompetent major in Peruvian History.




Generaly, if the governing body fails to pass the policies of the mayor, while her leadership can be questioned, i suggest their inability to act will reflect as much on their corruption and ineptness than it will transfer to the mayor who was supported by the voters.


Not true, some previous majors had strikes, lack of central government support and no police support.
Still they were able to accomplish more projects than Susana Villaran.
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americorps
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Re: Yes/No vote - What's she done?

Postby americorps » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:29 pm

falconagain wrote:
americorps wrote:
falconagain wrote:Without any regidores she cannot implement many actions as a major.
She will go dow in history as the most incompetent major in Peruvian History.




Generaly, if the governing body fails to pass the policies of the mayor, while her leadership can be questioned, i suggest their inability to act will reflect as much on their corruption and ineptness than it will transfer to the mayor who was supported by the voters.


Not true, some previous majors had strikes, lack of central government support and no police support.
Still they were able to accomplish more projects than Susana Villaran.



you omit the part where they completed those projects via bribes and corruption that was later uncovered, and often, as we saw when viallaran took office, by making the bills come payable under the next administration.

You are right, without full corruption, things work slower in Peru.

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