Coca. Where it is and isn´t cultivated.

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tomsax
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Coca. Where it is and isn´t cultivated.

Postby tomsax » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:35 pm

falconagain wrote:Call the dirandro (Peruvian DEA) and they will be nice enough to confirm you everything.


Have you tried to talk to them yourself? Apurimac is the highlands at over 2500m in all locations. Growing coca there is simply not possible. If you had the most basic knowledge of the place or had talked to anyone from there you would know this.

I suspect you have never been there. I lived and worked there for three years. To be there fair though if I had travelled there for less than a week my knowledge of the place would be vastly greater than yours.

Your comments below are delusional nonsense that I suspect you have simply made up as you have no other way of defending your prejudices. This is the problem with making judgement based on prejudice rather than any knowledge or understanding of facts. You then have to make up your own spurious facts to defend your poor judgement.

The real issue is not that you look foolish (though of course you do). The real problem is that your judgement was based on prejudice and therefore wrong. There is no reason to think badly of any family from Apurimac simply because of where they are from.

falconagain wrote:Cocaine production takes place in the poorest (lowest income per capita) department or
regions in the highlands. Once the production starts to take hold, ends up representing
at least 70% of the whole economy in that province or department. In places like Apurimac
that have a small population (350,000 people) and low salaries, Cocaine production became
90% to 95% of the economy. The majority of every town in there works as part of the production
capacity. 1 in 10 high school kids become addicts because is cheaply sold in schools. Meaning that
up to a point even some of the poorest can afford the drug. And homeless kids are hired to farm,
carry chemicals or hide stock in order to avoid the police. With the millions of dollars that
the drug industry provides very few people keep themselves honest and fewer (rare as dodos)
are able to get ahead and improve their lives without involving themselves in the shady business.


Tom
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:56 pm

tomsax wrote:
falconagain wrote:Call the dirandro (Peruvian DEA) and they will be nice enough to confirm you everything.


Have you tried to talk to them yourself? Apurimac is the highlands at over 2500m in all locations. Growing coca there is simply not possible. If you had the most basic knowledge of the place or had talked to anyone from there you would know this.

I suspect you have never been there. I lived and worked there for three years. To be there fair though if I had travelled there for less than a week my knowledge of the place would be vastly greater than yours.

Your comments below are delusional nonsense that I suspect you have simply made up as you have no other way of defending your prejudices. This is the problem with making judgement based on prejudice rather than any knowledge or understanding of facts. You then have to make up your own spurious facts to defend your poor judgement.

The real issue is not that you look foolish (though of course you do). The real problem is that your judgement was based on prejudice and therefore wrong. There is no reason to think badly of any family from Apurimac simply because of where they are from.

falconagain wrote:Cocaine production takes place in the poorest (lowest income per capita) department or
regions in the highlands. Once the production starts to take hold, ends up representing
at least 70% of the whole economy in that province or department. In places like Apurimac
that have a small population (350,000 people) and low salaries, Cocaine production became
90% to 95% of the economy. The majority of every town in there works as part of the production
capacity. 1 in 10 high school kids become addicts because is cheaply sold in schools. Meaning that
up to a point even some of the poorest can afford the drug. And homeless kids are hired to farm,
carry chemicals or hide stock in order to avoid the police. With the millions of dollars that
the drug industry provides very few people keep themselves honest and fewer (rare as dodos)
are able to get ahead and improve their lives without involving themselves in the shady business.



Net Cultivation of Coke (Hectares) 1996-2003
1996 - 16800
1997 - 12600
1998 - 9000
1999 - 8100
2000 - 7500
2001 - 8500
2002 - 10000
2003 - 10000

(the reason why there was a decrease is because the cultivation depletes the soil, and to ship
such huge quantities of fertilizer to the area is difficult and expensive.)

Production of Hoja de Coca in Metric Tons

1996 - 43.700
1997 - 35.300
1998 - 24.300
1999 - 21.100
2000 - 18.100
2001 - 17.600
2002 - 17.400

Of course if a gringo goes directly to Apurimac and asks to other people if its possible to grow
coca here. They will reply no its not possible. It would not be the first time that this happens.

Three years, I only spent there a few weeks visiting my family. But at least I had my eyes open.
Maybe you were blind or had other type of problems.

This is the problem when reality destroy the values of a person. He is so shaky that comes up with
different lies to justify its life. You owe an apology to the Dinandro, the Dea, and every anti drug
organization that collects this numbers in order to show the truth to others.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Hitoruna » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:54 am

I am sorry to say this specially to you, Falconagain but what you write is basically nonsense. In fact it is so much nonsense that I cant pinpoint exactly where and why.

i ll try one little example. The "De la Roca" families were not "poor vicitims" of the "evil indians". The ruling class in Peru has always been a good for nothing non leading class. They like the status quo and never did anything to succeed. There were no Bill Gates coming from there anytime soon. Velazco did them a favor to shake their feudal status so that they had to work to earn their living.

Funny thing, now the "dela piedras" are usually "caviars", the left now in Peru and the business people are coming increasingly from "the indians".


That is one of the reasons why I love talking with gringos and other foreigners. No matter if they are white black or yellow they dont have the huge load of non-sense that we peruvians have. Living outside Peru is actually liberating, when finally we can free ourselves of the "mundo patas parriba" that we Peruvians have in our head. (sigh)
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:31 am

Hitoruna wrote:I am sorry to say this specially to you, Falconagain but what you write is basically nonsense. In fact it is so much nonsense that I cant pinpoint exactly where and why.

i ll try one little example. The "De la Roca" families were not "poor vicitims" of the "evil indians". The ruling class in Peru has always been a good for nothing non leading class. They like the status quo and never did anything to succeed. There were no Bill Gates coming from there anytime soon. Velazco did them a favor to shake their feudal status so that they had to work to earn their living.

Funny thing, now the "dela piedras" are usually "caviars", the left now in Peru and the business people are coming increasingly from "the indians".


That is one of the reasons why I love talking with gringos and other foreigners. No matter if they are white black or yellow they dont have the huge load of non-sense that we peruvians have. Living outside Peru is actually liberating, when finally we can free ourselves of the "mundo patas parriba" that we Peruvians have in our head. (sigh)


Actually Hitoruna, after Toledos support of the reconciliation movement for the former terrorists backs
me down as the terrorists themselves admit what I said on their own website (Movimiento de la Reconciliacion or something like that). And following Toledos example, our current President Humala hired a group of
historians to research and assess the results taking during this period in history. Some of the preliminary
reports made by the historians or support documents made in the last decade back me down word by word.
I will be posting relevant parts of one of this studies this week.

Besides that, many of the families that I mention were at the same time American Citizens which became
poorer thanks to this government measures and the issue is still not resolved. According to the Peruvian
Government valuation (which usually is half of less than half to the advantage of the state) there is
a debt in the amount $4,500 millions dollars that were supposed to be paid last year (2012).
Which puts in doubt Peru new regime of acceptance of everybody. Meaning, the state pays
when there is dark skinned or indian people involved. But they do not comply when there is
white people involved. Which is the reason people left the country, when they leave you
with the debts and take you wealth is not a free market situation in any civilized country so
you go to where you are treated better. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

"The business people are coming increasingly from "the indians." " The government keeps operating
the same way it did on previous occassions. They are growing a middle class, but in this case a totally
ignorant middle class as there were no investments on proper education or adequate infrastructure.
The purpose of this middle class is to show that we are on the path to civilization to get the investments
from abroad and use them as cash cows. Attracting companies for mining, oil, gold and others.
But as soon as the people will get to greaty things will revert to the same situation. The middle class
will be sacrificed to make money for the administrative class of the government. And only the most
corrupt will end up eating a piece of the pie. Which is why they are pushing the Sol as the investment
currency in order to control everything. You could not do that with the previous class in the 70s because
they were moore business saavy than the current one.

Yes its true some Peruvians have el mundo patas arriba, but I am not one of them.
Every country no matter how advanced alse has a load of nonsense within their society. The difference
is that their load might be smallar than the Peruvian, or that the issues are completely different as they
have already solved problems that we are currently struggling with.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:57 am

tomsax wrote:
falconagain wrote:Call the dirandro (Peruvian DEA) and they will be nice enough to confirm you everything.


I suspect you have never been there. I lived and worked there for three years. To be there fair though if I had travelled there for less than a week my knowledge of the place would be vastly greater than yours.

Your comments below are delusional nonsense that I suspect you have simply made up as you have no other way of defending your prejudices. This is the problem with making judgement based on prejudice rather than any knowledge or understanding of facts. You then have to make up your own spurious facts to defend your poor judgement.

The real issue is not that you look foolish (though of course you do). The real problem is that your judgement was based on prejudice and therefore wrong. There is no reason to think badly of any family from Apurimac simply because of where they are from.



It is very sad to see people that try to do anything to justify their beliefs. I chose Apurimac as an example
because it is a well known production area on an International level second to the VRAE (which appears on
the Peruvian news on a daily basis). I mentioned that this is no secret to all Peruvians because since you
are a child you are exposed to the news from these places through El Comercio or La Republica and the
local news (specially on Sundays) through channels 2, 4, 5. Besides that I am personally linked to the place
as my fathers side family is from Apurimac (I am related directly at least to 100 people as direct relatives,
Grandpa did not believe in condoms or marriage). In the next post I will type a detailed history of the department from part of the 1960s to today. This post will use as main source one of the many current chronicles of terrorism in Peru which are also validated by current history books.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby Bobby » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:33 am

This thread has gone totally OT
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:56 am

The thread is about:
Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

I tried to explain that is not classism but the resentment created for the violence
inflicted upon one side or the other to this day. Together with supporting documents
of when it happens and why it happens?

It is uncomfortable to most Peruvians and even Americans.
Through as Peruvians and Americans (small minority), were actually involved in this violence
that created a hostility that to this day is miscontrued as classism.

Example:
I do not talk to you because you belong to the family or families that blew up my family. Is not
classism or discrimination. Plain old revenge.
There is no way to reconcile this in modern Peru. As enlightened as the modern world it is nowadays
no person will forgive others if they are responsible of either loss of lives or loss of property.
Which is why not even Toledo tried to put the victims of the terrorists together with the former
terrorists in one room. It is an issue that affects the whole country. But it does not justify any
of the affected parts to use classism as an excuse to force a situation that cannot happen.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby bobg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:16 pm

I BELIEVE FALCONAGAIN IS RIGHT PART OF WHAT IS BEING TALKED ABOUT IS NOT ABOUT HOW PEOPLE FEEL , SOME PEOPLE TALK ABOUT TAKING AWAY FROM THOSE WHO HAVE, AND GIVING IT TO THOSE WHO DO NOT.
THIS HAS NEVER WORKED,WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PRODUCERS ? COMMUNISM DOES NOT WORK!!!!
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby bobg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:33 pm

The Routes and Methods of Peru's Cocaine Traffickers

W-T-F- SEEMS A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FACTS ASS BACKWARD CHECK IT
OUT ON THE WEBB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:34 pm

falconagain wrote:In the next post I will type a detailed history of the department from part of the 1960s to today. This post will use as main source one of the many current chronicles of terrorism in Peru which are also validated by current history books.


Can't wait!
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:05 pm

bobg wrote:The Routes and Methods of Peru's Cocaine Traffickers

W-T-F- SEEMS A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FACTS ASS BACKWARD CHECK IT
OUT ON THE WEBB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Not sure what you are refering to here bobg. The Apurimac is a river as well as a Department. There is an intense coca growing area area in the Apurimac Ene Valley but this is in Ayacucho not in the Apurimac.

Coca only grows successfully between 500m and 2000m altitude. Apurimac is all above that altitude and coca growing there is doomed to failure. I'm sure they have tried but it is just too high.

I'm afraid Falconagain was just making this all up to justify himself...

I could say you should check your facts!
Tom
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby bobg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:54 pm

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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby bobg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:56 pm

https://dazzlepod.com/cable/05LIMA2642/







OR THIS................................................
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:29 pm

tomsax wrote:
bobg wrote:The Routes and Methods of Peru's Cocaine Traffickers

W-T-F- SEEMS A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FACTS ASS BACKWARD CHECK IT
OUT ON THE WEBB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Not sure what you are refering to here bobg. The Apurimac is a river as well as a Department. There is an intense coca growing area area in the Apurimac Ene Valley but this is in Ayacucho not in the Apurimac.

Coca only grows successfully between 500m and 2000m altitude. Apurimac is all above that altitude and coca growing there is doomed to failure. I'm sure they have tried but it is just too high.

I'm afraid Falconagain was just making this all up to justify himself...

I could say you should check your facts!


First, lets clarify the following, so there is no misunderstandings.
I am clearly referring to Apurimac the department which has the following provinces:
Abancay, Antabamba, Aymaraes, Cotabambas, Grau, Chincheros, Andahuaylas.

Second, in regards to your comment "coca growing there is doomed to failure".
i refer to the following document
http://www.congreso.gob.pe/congresista/ ... o/coca.htm
titled "Cultivation of Coke in Peru" presented at the national meeting # 9 of
Peruvian Agricultural Engineers, location Trujillo. Date October 1997.

Point # 1 (Production of Coca leafs in Peru) paragraph number 5
El crecimiento vertiginoso del cultivo de la coca se inicia en la década del 70 y se dio mayormente en los departamentos de San Martín, Huánuco, Cusco, Apurimac, Ucayali, etc. entre los mas significativos; en la zona del Huallaga se estima la existencia de más del 40 % de la producción nacional de hoja de coca; en Ucayali, hasta inicios de los años 80 el área cocalera no era importante, hoy el cultivo de coca en Aguaytía representa el 16 % del área de coca a nivel nacional; Apurimac y Cusco poseen el 18 y 10 % de la producción nacional, respectivamente. En el Perú se produce aproximadamente el 60 % de hoja de coca, utilizada en la elaboración de cacaina que se comercializa en el mundo.

translated it says the following:
The rapid growth of coca cultivation began in the 70s and mostly occurred in the departments of San Martin, Huanuco, Cusco, Apurimac, Ucayali, etc. Among the most significant, in the Huallaga is estimated that there are more than 40% of the national production of coca leaf in Ucayali, until the beginning of the 80s the area was not important coca, coca cultivation today in Aguaytía represents 16% of the area of coca nationwide, Apurimac and Cusco have the 18 and 10% of national production, respectively. In Peru produces about 60% of coca leaf used in preparing cocaine marketed in the world.

The paragraph says that the coca cultivation expanded in the 70s to Apurimac the department
(not the river or the valley) and that currently Apurimac the department has 18% of the national
production of coca.


Apurimac the department currently has a population of 400,000. In the 70s the population was even smaller. What I mean is that you cannot produce such a big amount of coca leafs without the collaboration of most of the working people in the whole department. The department is constituted by a series of tiny towns.

The rest of the text concentrates on the VRAE (Valley of the Apurimac River and the Ene) which
is an area outside Apurimac the department, the VRAE is also the main producer of coke leafs in
Peru.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:44 pm

According to this report from the Peruvian non profit Cedro (Titled: The problem of Drugs
in Peru, Dated June 2005). which bases its data on reports from the American and Peruvian
governments.
http://www.opd.gob.pe/cdoc/_cdocumentac ... _1_y_2.pdf

Page 14, shows the increase of cultivated Area in Apurimac the department.
Page 18, says that on the year 2000, Apurimac the deparment started to cultivate
amapola.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby falconagain » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:50 pm

A last document
https://www.ncjrs.gov/ondcppubs/publica ... report.pdf
Issued by the Executive Office of the President of the USA.
Titled Estimation of Cocaine Availability 1996-1999
You just need to type Apurimac on the search box and it will show you all the production
statistics for this PDF.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby chi chi » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:40 pm

falconagain wrote:Issued by the Executive Office of the President of the USA.
Titled Estimation of Cocaine Availability 1996-1999
You just need to type Apurimac on the search box and it will show you all the production
statistics for this PDF.


For sure they now because they are the biggest cocaine addicts in the world.
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Re: Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

Postby tomsax » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:05 am

falconagain wrote:According to this report from the Peruvian non profit Cedro (Titled: The problem of Drugs
in Peru, Dated June 2005). which bases its data on reports from the American and Peruvian
governments.
http://www.opd.gob.pe/cdoc/_cdocumentac ... _1_y_2.pdf

Page 14, shows the increase of cultivated Area in Apurimac the department.
Page 18, says that on the year 2000, Apurimac the deparment started to cultivate
amapola.


If you do a search for "coca apurimac" you are going to get lots of reports like this. But the table on page 14 is refering to valleys not departmetns. Look at the names of the other areas.. "Alto Huallago", etc. These are not departments but valleys.

Look at the map on page 15 and it is clarified completely. The Cuenca Cocalero del Apurimac is quite clearly shown in Ayachucho/Cusco/Junin with no cuencas cocaleros in Apurimac. I concede yes according to the map there is a very small area of selva alta were coca could in therory be grown but it is tiny (look at the map). Almost all of Apurimac is above 2500m and all your reports only refer to coca production below this altitude.

If you have managed to scour the internet and have found some other reports that have also confused the department and the valley/river, well done. If you have spent any time getting to know Apurimac properly you would know better.

Where are your family from? What altitude is it?
Tom
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Re: Coca. Where it is and isn´t cultivated.

Postby falconagain » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:46 pm

irst, lets clarify the following, so there is no misunderstandings.
I am clearly referring to Apurimac the department which has the following provinces:
Abancay, Antabamba, Aymaraes, Cotabambas, Grau, Chincheros, Andahuaylas.

Second, in regards to your comment "coca growing there is doomed to failure".
i refer to the following document
http://www.congreso.gob.pe/congresista/ ... o/coca.htm
titled "Cultivation of Coke in Peru" presented at the national meeting # 9 of
Peruvian Agricultural Engineers, location Trujillo. Date October 1997.

Point # 1 (Production of Coca leafs in Peru) paragraph number 5
El crecimiento vertiginoso del cultivo de la coca se inicia en la década del 70 y se dio mayormente en los departamentos de San Martín, Huánuco, Cusco, Apurimac, Ucayali, etc. entre los mas significativos; en la zona del Huallaga se estima la existencia de más del 40 % de la producción nacional de hoja de coca; en Ucayali, hasta inicios de los años 80 el área cocalera no era importante, hoy el cultivo de coca en Aguaytía representa el 16 % del área de coca a nivel nacional; Apurimac y Cusco poseen el 18 y 10 % de la producción nacional, respectivamente. En el Perú se produce aproximadamente el 60 % de hoja de coca, utilizada en la elaboración de cacaina que se comercializa en el mundo.

translated it says the following:
The rapid growth of coca cultivation began in the 70s and mostly occurred in the departments of San Martin, Huanuco, Cusco, Apurimac, Ucayali, etc. Among the most significant, in the Huallaga is estimated that there are more than 40% of the national production of coca leaf in Ucayali, until the beginning of the 80s the area was not important coca, coca cultivation today in Aguaytía represents 16% of the area of coca nationwide, Apurimac and Cusco have the 18 and 10% of national production, respectively. In Peru produces about 60% of coca leaf used in preparing cocaine marketed in the world.

The paragraph says that the coca cultivation expanded in the 70s to Apurimac the department
(not the river or the valley) and that currently Apurimac the department has 18% of the national
production of coca.

Apurimac the department currently has a population of 400,000. In the 70s the population was even smaller. What I mean is that you cannot produce such a big amount of coca leafs without the collaboration of most of the working people in the whole department. The department is constituted by a series of tiny towns.

The rest of the text concentrates on the VRAE (Valley of the Apurimac River and the Ene) which
is an area outside Apurimac the department, the VRAE is also the main producer of coke leafs in
Peru.
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Re: Coca. Where it is and isn´t cultivated.

Postby chi chi » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:00 pm

Coca leaves are sold at the Mercado in Magdalena Del Mar. I often buy coca leaves to make 'mate de coca'.
A few leaves in a jar, pour hot water over it, add sugar.
It's old nice do drink it cold with ice cubes.

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