Biggest Culture Shocks?

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sbaustin
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby sbaustin » Wed May 29, 2013 11:57 am

God save you if you get in the place where you live surrounded by mestizo people only, you will feel on your own skin what is it being discriminated just because you are white.


On the other hand, perhaps living with people that look like and share a common culture with your fiancé would be a great and wonderful experience.


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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Wed May 29, 2013 4:44 pm

sbaustin wrote:
God save you if you get in the place where you live surrounded by mestizo people only, you will feel on your own skin what is it being discriminated just because you are white.


On the other hand, perhaps living with people that look like and share a common culture with your fiancé would be a great and wonderful experience.


That would depend on the fiance.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby sbaustin » Wed May 29, 2013 4:50 pm

Of course, I have no idea of his background and was making a general point.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby BellbottomBlues » Wed May 29, 2013 5:24 pm

I have seen photos of the family gatherings and holidays....their lifestyle is essentially the same as middle class U.S. Americans: reasonable cars,nice appliances, nice homes, vacations, office jobs, business owners, some are politicians. Our childhoods and values are not terribly dissimilar (in spite of some big religious differences - he is Catholic and I am casually Christian)....but racially of course, we are quite different in appearance. On some level, that might be part of the attraction, but only a minor part. The other part is that we have strikingly similar views in many areas and share the same hobbies. It can be a small world - between two people. I have lived in other countries, just hoping to adjust reasonably well to Peru. My mind is open. I do know however, that I won't abide well any derisive remarks about our relationship - here in this country or anywhere in the world.

Again, thank you all for the commentary. BBB
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby richorozco » Thu May 30, 2013 1:44 am

Hahahhahahah.... I wonder what people in Beijing, South India, and Korea look like? Do you think there is a 50/50% mix of blonde hair and blue eyes????

C'mon, Peru is a 3rd world country in Latin America!!!! It's not a Scandinavian country or Eastern European country.

And No...the majority of people are not walking around with Tommy Bahama shirts,
Docker shorts, Custom Nike shoes, Rado watches, David Yurman jewelery, Coach purses, I Love NY perfume.

If you want to see all the glitz and glamour, come to Manhattan, Miami, LA, and Chicago. We have good Steak too....full of steroids, red dye that looks like blood, etc...

BTW, you can always pick out an American in any country. We dress how we like, speak our minds, usually only know one language, tend to be obnoxious, like to use our credit cards, like materialistic things, etc...

I like Peru because of the nature, the food, the true organic stuff, etc.... If I want to look at 6 ft polish girls, Italian girls, Irish folks with orange/red hair, etc.... Hell.....I'd stay in Chicago......

BTW, I'm not an artist but I'm an engineer so I kinda-sorta use logic and analytical thinking when I travel overseas.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby SmartKitty » Thu May 30, 2013 8:18 am

richorozco wrote:Hahahhahahah.... I wonder what people in Beijing, South India, and Korea look like? Do you think there is a 50/50% mix of blonde hair and blue eyes????

C'mon, Peru is a 3rd world country in Latin America!!!! It's not a Scandinavian country or Eastern European country.

And No...the majority of people are not walking around with Tommy Bahama shirts,
Docker shorts, Custom Nike shoes, Rado watches, David Yurman jewelery, Coach purses, I Love NY perfume.

If you want to see all the glitz and glamour, come to Manhattan, Miami, LA, and Chicago. We have good Steak too....full of steroids, red dye that looks like blood, etc...

BTW, you can always pick out an American in any country. We dress how we like, speak our minds, usually only know one language, tend to be obnoxious, like to use our credit cards, like materialistic things, etc...

I like Peru because of the nature, the food, the true organic stuff, etc.... If I want to look at 6 ft polish girls, Italian girls, Irish folks with orange/red hair, etc.... Hell.....I'd stay in Chicago......

BTW, I'm not an artist but I'm an engineer so I kinda-sorta use logic and analytical thinking when I travel overseas.

So? I was in many countries in Asia and Latin America and I am also an engineer working in Defense projects all around the world, now retired and now I'm an artist, btw successful one. Here we are talking about 1st year impressions and culture shock. Each Latin American country is different and arriving to Lima, just going from the airport anybody see dirtiness and dark colors, then, with more time you get used to it.

Ecological products? BS! The water is not only a bad quality, it poisons you sometimes even after boiling it well or filtering, that's how I met my doctor. Chicken... be a little curious and ask how it's raised. Fruits and vegetables... ask about ddt and chemicals used in the fresh produce. You think in Peru everything is organic? Peru is a big dumpster for stuff which are prohibited in many developed countries including prohibited medicine.

An engineer living in a dreamland. :lol:
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby Josh2U » Thu May 30, 2013 9:54 am

WE are obnoxious? Been called that once or twice have you, richorozco
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby Lloyd007 » Thu May 30, 2013 10:38 am

Something that always shocked me (this is just one of many) is when I state a fact which is 100% true and a Peruvian will simply say, ''no. no you didn't do that''.

An example would be that I bought an apartment on the Malecon nearly 10 years ago and paid US$xx (it wasn't very much) and a number of people simply said, ''No. No you didn't.'' As if I was lying to them! Amazing.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby sbaustin » Thu May 30, 2013 10:49 am

Lloyd007 wrote:Something that always shocked me (this is just one of many) is when I state a fact which is 100% true and a Peruvian will simply say, ''no. no you didn't do that''.


Out of curiosity do you find this happens more with people you know (con confianza) or people you don't?
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby BellbottomBlues » Thu May 30, 2013 12:18 pm

It seems that other than crime, environmental issues are the biggest concern - toxins not only in the air, but water and food supply?

Any sources for how this all impacts public health? are cancer rates higher in Peru? other illnesses?

Again, as far as culture,
I have travelled widely and always noticed that "UnitedStatesians" seem more provincial than say, Europeans or Canadians.

BBB

PS - smartkitty you are living my dream. Curious as to how you came to choose Peru as a retirement location.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby ariel » Thu May 30, 2013 12:35 pm

30-something "kids" still hanging on dearly to their mother's apron strings, with the mother treating them like 5-year-olds - - that's one massive culture shock for Westerners.

And just try to miss any of the relatives' birthdays and you won't hear the end of it.

I'm merely observing, not judging. In fact, I think I understand. Maybe these aren't necessarily a "bad" thing. But just be prepared and keep 'em thoughts in your head when you come across this part of the culture firsthand. And remember, these aren't unique to this country.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Thu May 30, 2013 1:06 pm

richorozco wrote:
I like Peru because of the nature, the food, the true organic stuff, etc.... If I want to look at 6 ft polish girls, Italian girls, Irish folks with orange/red hair, etc.... Hell.....I'd stay in Chicago......



Peru = Organic food. Actually the majority of the food that people eat in Peru does not qualify as
organic. Organic foods have a series of associated overhead costs that makes it too expensive
to the regular person. We are talking about here about $20 dollars for a dozen of eggs. A minimum
of $100 for a bottle of wine. Lettuces that cost between $5 to $15 dollars a head. Those foods
are not available to most people in Peru. Unless you grow them yourself following stringent international
standards. Antony Bourdain showed the organic coffee on one of his programs. He was able only to
show the farm and the plants. It was so expensive and rare that the production was purchased many
years in advance.

The food in Peru might be more natural and sometimes more polluted compared to foods
of other countries but the Organic production is sold exclusively abroad to premium customers
with very deep pockets.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby sbaustin » Thu May 30, 2013 1:55 pm

falconagain wrote: Actually the majority of the food that people eat in Peru does not qualify as
organic.


Is there an international standard or even a Peruvian standard for the "organic" label or do you mean that it wouldn't qualify as organic in the USA (or some other country)?
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby jude » Thu May 30, 2013 2:12 pm

It wouldn't qualify as organic under any standard. Have you spent much time in agricultural areas of Peru? There's lots of spraying and use of pesticides. Even small-scale poor farmers in the Andes used them. Fruits and vegetables in Peru do taste good, perhaps because they're more likely to be picked fresh than the typical supermarket fare in the US, but they are far from being organically grown.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby caliguy » Thu May 30, 2013 2:24 pm

jude wrote:It wouldn't qualify as organic under any standard. Have you spent much time in agricultural areas of Peru? There's lots of spraying and use of pesticides. Even small-scale poor farmers in the Andes used them. Fruits and vegetables in Peru do taste good, perhaps because they're more likely to be picked fresh than the typical supermarket fare in the US, but they are far from being organically grown.

and i wonder if any of the pesticides used are approved by food and drug admins. :(
every place has it's own spirit. you just need to tune into it.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby sbaustin » Thu May 30, 2013 8:48 pm

jude wrote:It wouldn't qualify as organic under any standard. Have you spent much time in agricultural areas of Peru? There's lots of spraying and use of pesticides. Even small-scale poor farmers in the Andes used them. Fruits and vegetables in Peru do taste good, perhaps because they're more likely to be picked fresh than the typical supermarket fare in the US, but they are far from being organically grown.


I was asking how the poster was using the term. Organic is a certification that differs in each country and you seem to be using the word to mean pesticides aren't used when the USA organic program does allow some pesticides. If you are going to be using an ambiguous term, it might help to actually define what you mean hence the original question.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Fri May 31, 2013 12:12 am

sbaustin wrote:
jude wrote:It wouldn't qualify as organic under any standard. Have you spent much time in agricultural areas of Peru? There's lots of spraying and use of pesticides. Even small-scale poor farmers in the Andes used them. Fruits and vegetables in Peru do taste good, perhaps because they're more likely to be picked fresh than the typical supermarket fare in the US, but they are far from being organically grown.


I was asking how the poster was using the term. Organic is a certification that differs in each country and you seem to be using the word to mean pesticides aren't used when the USA organic program does allow some pesticides. If you are going to be using an ambiguous term, it might help to actually define what you mean hence the original question.


Organic Food go to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby miaperu » Fri May 31, 2013 7:31 am

If you are light skinned you are still seen as a Demi god, unfortunately, as the majority of peruvians have little pride in their heritage.This ,however,if you are white,may work to your advantage when it comes to work and certain relationships.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby SmartKitty » Fri May 31, 2013 12:23 pm

miaperu wrote:If you are light skinned you are still seen as a Demi god, unfortunately, as the majority of peruvians have little pride in their heritage.This ,however,if you are white,may work to your advantage when it comes to work and certain relationships.

lol, lol, lol!!! only light skinned women can take advantage marrying somebody with more money, even for them it doesn't work well if they are poor and uneducated. The best thing for to be seen in Peru it's to belong to the higher upper class and power group which for foreigners is almost impossible doesn't matter how white you are.

About Peruvian heritage, unfortunately the education in Peru is at a very low level and Peruvian people doesn't know too much about their heritage. At the same time, centuries of colonial heritage planted in Peruvian society a lot of segregation and predjustice segregating by colors, shadows and blood mixing even siblings, parents from their children, etc. Also there are Peruvian heritage fairy tales made for tourists. There is a lot of true and false mixed in Peruvian history and usually foreign people know more about it, than the natives just because in other languages there is more science, research and publications.
My name is Fortunata Carhuapoma, pies de plomo. I'm a modest serrano girl in polleras and alpargatas.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Fri May 31, 2013 12:54 pm

SmartKitty wrote: Also there are Peruvian heritage fairy tales made for tourists. There is a lot of true and false mixed in Peruvian history and usually foreign people know more about it, than the natives just because in other languages there is more science, research and publications.


Things like female dancers in the provinces using leather boots and miniskirts. Both of them
were invented in Europe and are not native of Peru. The national Peruvian museum (Museo
de la Nacion) did a parallel development history between Europe and Peru to show who developed what.

Or los danzantes de tijeras. There is no graphic record of them before the year 2000. I was
in the Peruvian education system for over 15 years but they were never mentioned then.
They have a page of wikipedia talking about a couple of sources but still there was no popularity
or documentation of this so called tradition before the year 2000.

Fortunately they went overboard with the concept and got rejected in an international event.
Which made them lose a lot of business. Thank god.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby BellbottomBlues » Fri May 31, 2013 1:01 pm

The Peruvians I have met here have enormous pride in their country...to the point of nationalism, I would say. As far as heritage, isn't that the same thing?

Are any of you concerned for your health with respect to any toxins in the local environment, water or food supply?

BBB
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby SmartKitty » Fri May 31, 2013 1:29 pm

BellbottomBlues wrote:The Peruvians I have met here have enormous pride in their country...to the point of nationalism, I would say. As far as heritage, isn't that the same thing?

Peruvians are quite different inside of their country and abroad. It's very common to a Peruvian tell to the foreigner, even to his wife, not the truth, but what you wanna hear. It takes time to learn.
BellbottomBlues wrote:Are any of you concerned for your health with respect to any toxins in the local environment, water or food supply?

BBB

Probably it depends of your body and the place you are coming from. Some people is permanently sick, some not or in between. I spend first 3 years very sick, all Peruvian germs loved me. Water is horrible even taking showers or washing your face you can catch some weird skin rush or open sores, it happened to me and Peruvian doctor explained to me that for Peruvian germs I'm like a baby, no immunity at all. Of course, good to have water filters at home which I did.

Anyway, don't worry before you get here, I know many people who didn't get sick and adapted very fast.
My name is Fortunata Carhuapoma, pies de plomo. I'm a modest serrano girl in polleras and alpargatas.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby SmartKitty » Fri May 31, 2013 1:33 pm

falconagain wrote:
SmartKitty wrote: Also there are Peruvian heritage fairy tales made for tourists. There is a lot of true and false mixed in Peruvian history and usually foreign people know more about it, than the natives just because in other languages there is more science, research and publications.


Things like female dancers in the provinces using leather boots and miniskirts. Both of them
were invented in Europe and are not native of Peru. The national Peruvian museum (Museo
de la Nacion) did a parallel development history between Europe and Peru to show who developed what.

Or los danzantes de tijeras. There is no graphic record of them before the year 2000. I was
in the Peruvian education system for over 15 years but they were never mentioned then.
They have a page of wikipedia talking about a couple of sources but still there was no popularity
or documentation of this so called tradition before the year 2000.

Fortunately they went overboard with the concept and got rejected in an international event.
Which made them lose a lot of business. Thank god.

Yep. It's funny. Where did they get scissors in pre-inca era? :lol:
My name is Fortunata Carhuapoma, pies de plomo. I'm a modest serrano girl in polleras and alpargatas.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby gerard » Fri May 31, 2013 2:08 pm

Or los danzantes de tijeras. There is no graphic record of them before the year 2000. I was
in the Peruvian education system for over 15 years but they were never mentioned then.
They have a page of wikipedia talking about a couple of sources but still there was no popularity
or documentation of this so called tradition before the year 2000.


So Peruvian culture is now dependant on whether you learned it at school? Well, maybe you missed a day as the consensus amongst people who actually know what they are talking about is that it can be traced back to at least 1564.

http://www.peruviantimes.com/18/peru-celebrates-unesco-decision-to-recognize-ritual-dances/9841/

Yep. It's funny. Where did they get scissors in pre-inca era?


They're not literally scissors, although why you would think the pre-Incas couldn't have scissors I'm not sure. They were apparently around in 1500BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scissors
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby argidd » Fri May 31, 2013 2:32 pm

falconagain wrote:
SmartKitty wrote: Also there are Peruvian heritage fairy tales made for tourists. There is a lot of true and false mixed in Peruvian history and usually foreign people know more about it, than the natives just because in other languages there is more science, research and publications.


Things like female dancers in the provinces using leather boots and miniskirts. Both of them
were invented in Europe and are not native of Peru. The national Peruvian museum (Museo
de la Nacion) did a parallel development history between Europe and Peru to show who developed what.

Or los danzantes de tijeras. There is no graphic record of them before the year 2000. I was
in the Peruvian education system for over 15 years but they were never mentioned then.
They have a page of wikipedia talking about a couple of sources but still there was no popularity
or documentation of this so called tradition before the year 2000.

Fortunately they went overboard with the concept and got rejected in an international event.
Which made them lose a lot of business. Thank god.


Unfortunately not all schools are good, and many people in Peru lack knowledgge of our own country.
It is a shame you state something like the "danza de tijeras" has no record of existing before the year 2000.

Whether you are Peruvian, or a resident of Peru, perhaps you can take a bit of time to learn about the country you live in; no one says you have to be an extreme patriot or love Peru profoundly, but just out of respect, read a little before you state these things that only put the spot light on your lack of knowledge.

With that said, and since the topic is on, I recommend a beautiful read, by Jose María Arguedas, La Agonía de Rasu Ñiti, a short story published in 1962 about the scissor dance, danza de las tijeras.
Regards,

Argidd
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby FROADS » Fri May 31, 2013 3:04 pm

Someone here mentioned that clothing is expensive. Yeah, the BRAND name clothes from malls are expensive because they are imported. But if you want cheap, durable clothes made from domestic companies. You can find it all in Gamarra. They have many galleries that offer good products..I still rock jeans, and all kinds of shirts that are YEARS old. Trust me, don't underestimate the products made from national hands.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby SmartKitty » Fri May 31, 2013 3:05 pm

argidd wrote:Unfortunately not all schools are good, and many people in Peru lack knowledgge of our own country.
It is a shame you state something like the "danza de tijeras" has no record of existing before the year 2000.

Whether you are Peruvian, or a resident of Peru, perhaps you can take a bit of time to learn about the country you live in; no one says you have to be an extreme patriot or love Peru profoundly, but just out of respect, read a little before you state these things that only put the spot light on your lack of knowledge.

With that said, and since the topic is on, I recommend a beautiful read, by Jose María Arguedas, La Agonía de Rasu Ñiti, a short story published in 1962 about the scissor dance, danza de las tijeras.

Argidd, Falcon was talking about common scissors and also about scissors not found in Peru in archeological search. We're not talking here about Egypt. At the same time Peruvian Scissors dance was rejected by international folklore dancers because Peruvians insisted in using and presenting the modern scissors as their own cultural thing which is non sense. And if you believe you know the Peruvian history better than some Peruvian educated persons probably it confirms that in your language you had more information than Peruvians teach in their education system.

And what is Wikipedia saying about Cuzco girls in mini skirts and Russian style tall leather boots?
My name is Fortunata Carhuapoma, pies de plomo. I'm a modest serrano girl in polleras and alpargatas.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby vivaperusurf » Fri May 31, 2013 3:15 pm

With regard to the question of the OP, the markets were also something i found quite surreal. You can find things in the retail stores, but you can get lost for hours in some of the bigger markets. Also the mercados negros:-)
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Fri May 31, 2013 4:06 pm

I read the story in wikipedia and I find three anachronisms on it.

First: Scissors, there is no physical record of scissors in Peru. If they were dancing,
maybe they were using something else but not scissors.

Two: Violin, that is exclusively European.

Three: Arp, there is no arp manufactured in Peru.


This three elements do not make any sense on Peruvian mythology, maybe on cheap
Peruvian Science Fiction. But in that case the dancer is Marty Mcfly and this is back
to the future the combi version.








La agonía de Rasu Ñiti

Plot

El cuento relata los últimos instantes de la vida del indio Pedro Huancayre (Rasu-Ñiti), un célebre danzante de tijeras o dansaq, quien utiliza sus pocas fuerzas que le quedan para danzar mientras agoniza, todo lo cual lo hace acompañado de dos músicos (un violinista y un arpista), desplegando un ceremonial espectacular, que presencian su mujer y sus hijas, y su joven discípulo Atuq Sayku. Rasu-Ñiti muere en trance y lega a su discípulo el Wamani o espíritu de la montaña que se manifiesta en forma de cóndor, una deidad andina que hizo de Rasu-Ñiti un eximio bailarín, de acuerdo a la visión andina.

Translation

The story recounts the last moments of the life of the Indian Pedro Huancayre (Rasu-Niti), a celebrated dancer of scissors or dansaq, who uses his little strength he had left to dance while dying, which makes all accompanied by two musicians (a violinist and a harpist), displaying a spectacular ceremonial, who witness his wife and daughters, and his young disciple Atuq Sayku. Rasu-Niti dies in trance and bequeaths to his disciple Wamani or mountain spirit manifested in the form of condor, Andean deity-Niti Rasu made ​​an accomplished dancer, according to the Andean vision.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby argidd » Fri May 31, 2013 5:42 pm

SmartKitty wrote:
argidd wrote:Unfortunately not all schools are good, and many people in Peru lack knowledgge of our own country.
It is a shame you state something like the "danza de tijeras" has no record of existing before the year 2000.

Whether you are Peruvian, or a resident of Peru, perhaps you can take a bit of time to learn about the country you live in; no one says you have to be an extreme patriot or love Peru profoundly, but just out of respect, read a little before you state these things that only put the spot light on your lack of knowledge.

With that said, and since the topic is on, I recommend a beautiful read, by Jose María Arguedas, La Agonía de Rasu Ñiti, a short story published in 1962 about the scissor dance, danza de las tijeras.

Argidd, Falcon was talking about common scissors and also about scissors not found in Peru in archeological search. We're not talking here about Egypt. At the same time Peruvian Scissors dance was rejected by international folklore dancers because Peruvians insisted in using and presenting the modern scissors as their own cultural thing which is non sense. And if you believe you know the Peruvian history better than some Peruvian educated persons probably it confirms that in your language you had more information than Peruvians teach in their education system.

And what is Wikipedia saying about Cuzco girls in mini skirts and Russian style tall leather boots?


I think you did not understand my point, I was referring to what the poster said about there being no record of the dance until the year 2000, if he mentioned that this was in regards to the type of scissors, perhaps I missed to read it.

As per my language, it is Spanish, I am Peruvian and know history.

I don't understand why you mention Egypt, again, maybe I missed something.

If you wonder why something like mini skirts, scissors, and bowler hats are used in remote locations where in Quechua times there were no such things, it is because many of these dances were the product of the mix with Spanish and other cultures. Bowler hats became popular because the English men who came to Peru to work in the railroads introduced them to the population. Culture is not something only based on what happened before the Spanish came, it is something dynamic that evolves everyday.

In the end, my point, may it be scissors, the height of people and the colors the wear, how our immigration system works, etc., we have to take a little time to read a little, find out a little, and not just shoot out the first thing that comes to mind.
Regards,

Argidd
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Fri May 31, 2013 6:34 pm

argidd wrote:
SmartKitty wrote:
argidd wrote:Unfortunately not all schools are good, and many people in Peru lack knowledgge of our own country.
It is a shame you state something like the "danza de tijeras" has no record of existing before the year 2000.

Whether you are Peruvian, or a resident of Peru, perhaps you can take a bit of time to learn about the country you live in; no one says you have to be an extreme patriot or love Peru profoundly, but just out of respect, read a little before you state these things that only put the spot light on your lack of knowledge.

With that said, and since the topic is on, I recommend a beautiful read, by Jose María Arguedas, La Agonía de Rasu Ñiti, a short story published in 1962 about the scissor dance, danza de las tijeras.

Argidd, Falcon was talking about common scissors and also about scissors not found in Peru in archeological search. We're not talking here about Egypt. At the same time Peruvian Scissors dance was rejected by international folklore dancers because Peruvians insisted in using and presenting the modern scissors as their own cultural thing which is non sense. And if you believe you know the Peruvian history better than some Peruvian educated persons probably it confirms that in your language you had more information than Peruvians teach in their education system.

And what is Wikipedia saying about Cuzco girls in mini skirts and Russian style tall leather boots?


I think you did not understand my point, I was referring to what the poster said about there being no record of the dance until the year 2000, if he mentioned that this was in regards to the type of scissors, perhaps I missed to read it.

As per my language, it is Spanish, I am Peruvian and know history.

I don't understand why you mention Egypt, again, maybe I missed something.

If you wonder why something like mini skirts, scissors, and bowler hats are used in remote locations where in Quechua times there were no such things, it is because many of these dances were the product of the mix with Spanish and other cultures. Bowler hats became popular because the English men who came to Peru to work in the railroads introduced them to the population. Culture is not something only based on what happened before the Spanish came, it is something dynamic that evolves everyday.

In the end, my point, may it be scissors, the height of people and the colors the wear, how our immigration system works, etc., we have to take a little time to read a little, find out a little, and not just shoot out the first thing that comes to mind.


The point is that there is many traditions in Peru that are presented as original creations from the culture
of that region but they are not. One of the issues is the technology to express this traditions. You
cannot say that European Instruments are used to play typical music of that region, without first
introducing the original instruments just at the beginning on that region.

Another issue is that if you modernize a tradition in order to attract more tourists you have to admit.
While wikipedia sheds a degree of truth to the tradition. It does not tell that it was adapted for tourism
during the military government on the 1970s, It does not tell you either that there was no professional
research made at that time, but that the military government was trying to build a highland identity
without any proper proof which is why most of the actions on that respect were forgotten until the
one of the scissors danzers was resurrected as a cash cow.

The third issue that it does not tell you is that it was actually forbidden by the Catholic church
because it was considered an act of violence against somebody. (Maybe the Catholic church had
better documentation about it so the local communities fear that they release the documents with
the details of the tiny history of violence that was involved in these so called traditions).

Now, I have heard by many similar traditions that border in savagery that are still popular
in isolated Peruvian towns but that they will obviously change in certain way if it becomes
a tourism cash cow.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby tomsax » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:21 am

Argidd is right. There is a basic misunderstanding here on what 'folkloric' means. Many folk traditions in Peru are based on influences from the Spanish and other sources as they are bound to be. In places where folk traditions are part of the fabric of life they don't use the term folkloric and see no reason why there shouldn't be modern influences. In fact that makes it more authentic and real rather than being a museum piece.

I remember seeing scissors dances in Peru in 1987 so the idea that they didn't exist before 2000 is simply false. The dances still happen as part of traditional ferias in parts of Peru that have almost no tourism. They are largely dances by Peruvians, for Peruvians, although of course they also appear in penas, tourist shows and exhibitions of Peruvian dances abroad. But when they do it is always in a very sanitised form.

I went to a water festival (Yaku Raymi) in Ayacuchu where scissors dances were dancing for 2 days solid. It was with all the extra stuff they do only for Peruvians. Tourists actually find the non tourist form of the dance pretty disgusting. They bit the heads of snakes, put pins though their tongues that sort of things. The dancers are meant to have superhuman powers.

It is authentically Peruvian and a folk tradition also with more modern influences.
Tom
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:13 am

tomsax wrote:I remember seeing scissors dances in Peru in 1987 so the idea that they didn't exist before 2000 is simply false. The dances still happen as part of traditional ferias in parts of Peru that have almost no tourism. They are largely dances by Peruvians, for Peruvians, although of course they also appear in penas, tourist shows and exhibitions of Peruvian dances abroad. But when they do it is always in a very sanitised form.
It is authentically Peruvian and a folk tradition also with more modern influences.


I said that there was no written record available to students in school and college during those years,
which is actually true as the publication of the scissors dance was limited to certain decades and this
books were not available to the general public. Besides that is really funny to find out about this traditions
later when your family belongs to the region that celebrates the.

This kind of folkloric misunderstanding does not happen in any country besides Peru. Once a tradition
is set there is plenty of documentation and detailed history that allows you to learn more about. In Peru
usually there is 2 or 3 books with no a additional references.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby BellbottomBlues » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:18 pm

Some here have mentioned the Peruvian educational system. I thought of these comments yesterday when my boyfriend took me to visit a Peruvian man who works for him. This is a man raised and educated in Peru, but a high school dropout.
We were discussing my refresher classes in Spanish. Suddenly, this man becomes very animated and starts drawing on a notepad for me, various rules of Spanish sentence structure, referencing nouns, verbs, adverbs, predicates and all the rules of grammar.

How wonderful to have this conversation with my Peruvian acquaintance when I almost guarantee you that few, if any of my U.S. educated, college graduated co-workers could even remember the basic rules of English grammar.

This man is 54...and out of school for what, 40 years? obviously the Peruvian educational system made an impact.

BBB
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby richorozco » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:21 pm

falconagain wrote:
richorozco wrote:
I like Peru because of the nature, the food, the true organic stuff, etc.... If I want to look at 6 ft polish girls, Italian girls, Irish folks with orange/red hair, etc.... Hell.....I'd stay in Chicago......



Peru = Organic food. Actually the majority of the food that people eat in Peru does not qualify as
organic. Organic foods have a series of associated overhead costs that makes it too expensive
to the regular person. We are talking about here about $20 dollars for a dozen of eggs. A minimum
of $100 for a bottle of wine. Lettuces that cost between $5 to $15 dollars a head. Those foods
are not available to most people in Peru. Unless you grow them yourself following stringent international
standards. Antony Bourdain showed the organic coffee on one of his programs. He was able only to
show the farm and the plants. It was so expensive and rare that the production was purchased many
years in advance.

The food in Peru might be more natural and sometimes more polluted compared to foods
of other countries but the Organic production is sold exclusively abroad to premium customers
with very deep pockets.


While I agree that there are limited controls in Peru (for everything from buying controlled medications to counterfeiting items), there are many places in Huaral, for example, that are solely for the purpose of exporting Grade A 'Organic items" to the Whole Foods, Marianos, etc...in the US. Not many Peruvians get the opportunity to eat this stuff because the products are meant for export. As some may be aware, Toledo opened up the Free Trade Agreement with the US while he was President. In addition, the majority of these exporters are powerful political families in Peru (i.e. think the offspring of the Belaunde family).

The farms in Huaral (10,000 Hectares) have automated sprinklers in this immense territory, many agricultural engineers and people from the US (i.e. think PhDs from the US, businessmen who come visit and look at the crops, financial analysts with MBAs from Wharton, Booth, and Kellogg) and it is close to 100% natural, however, insects are modified to defeat and kill other insects that do harm. They do not use pesticides and they control the amount of sunlight by covering ever single piece of fruit (i.e. avocado, tangerines, etc...) by folding pieces of newspaper over the fruits (yes, manual labor is cheap in Peru).

Like I said, Peru is a great place and even a better place for business people because profits can be made and labor is cheap .... you just need to have the political connections and know-how to avoid or minimize taxes, customs, etc....

Now, you can go to the highlands / jungle (ceja de selva) and eat from from natural, wild, nobody plants or maintains the area vegetation, etc.... Here you have absolutely no pesticides, insects that are used to eliminate plant diseases, etc.... but the fruit/vegetables are not the same and would not be suitable for export.

Same with the coffee .... it is meant for export and the normal people in Peru will never taste it because the stuff you find at stores is meant for national use not international/export (big $).

Same idea with Lacoste plants in Chincha and the Pima cotton they use. You will not get close to the garments and you will not get one out since the security and quality control is kinda tight. But Peru has good cotton, cheap labor, and business incentives....
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:06 pm

richorozco wrote:
falconagain wrote:
richorozco wrote:
I like Peru because of the nature, the food, the true organic stuff, etc.... If I want to look at 6 ft polish girls, Italian girls, Irish folks with orange/red hair, etc.... Hell.....I'd stay in Chicago......



Peru = Organic food. Actually the majority of the food that people eat in Peru does not qualify as
organic. Organic foods have a series of associated overhead costs that makes it too expensive
to the regular person. We are talking about here about $20 dollars for a dozen of eggs. A minimum
of $100 for a bottle of wine. Lettuces that cost between $5 to $15 dollars a head. Those foods
are not available to most people in Peru. Unless you grow them yourself following stringent international
standards. Antony Bourdain showed the organic coffee on one of his programs. He was able only to
show the farm and the plants. It was so expensive and rare that the production was purchased many
years in advance.

The food in Peru might be more natural and sometimes more polluted compared to foods
of other countries but the Organic production is sold exclusively abroad to premium customers
with very deep pockets.


While I agree that there are limited controls in Peru (for everything from buying controlled medications to counterfeiting items), there are many places in Huaral, for example, that are solely for the purpose of exporting Grade A 'Organic items" to the Whole Foods, Marianos, etc...in the US. Not many Peruvians get the opportunity to eat this stuff because the products are meant for export. As some may be aware, Toledo opened up the Free Trade Agreement with the US while he was President. In addition, the majority of these exporters are powerful political families in Peru (i.e. think the offspring of the Belaunde family).

The farms in Huaral (10,000 Hectares) have automated sprinklers in this immense territory, many agricultural engineers and people from the US (i.e. think PhDs from the US, businessmen who come visit and look at the crops, financial analysts with MBAs from Wharton, Booth, and Kellogg) and it is close to 100% natural, however, insects are modified to defeat and kill other insects that do harm. They do not use pesticides and they control the amount of sunlight by covering ever single piece of fruit (i.e. avocado, tangerines, etc...) by folding pieces of newspaper over the fruits (yes, manual labor is cheap in Peru).

Like I said, Peru is a great place and even a better place for business people because profits can be made and labor is cheap .... you just need to have the political connections and know-how to avoid or minimize taxes, customs, etc....

Now, you can go to the highlands / jungle (ceja de selva) and eat from from natural, wild, nobody plants or maintains the area vegetation, etc.... Here you have absolutely no pesticides, insects that are used to eliminate plant diseases, etc.... but the fruit/vegetables are not the same and would not be suitable for export.

Same with the coffee .... it is meant for export and the normal people in Peru will never taste it because the stuff you find at stores is meant for national use not international/export (big $).

Same idea with Lacoste plants in Chincha and the Pima cotton they use. You will not get close to the garments and you will not get one out since the security and quality control is kinda tight. But Peru has good cotton, cheap labor, and business incentives....


Yes, those places that you mention do exist but they are a small minority in a sea of pollution.
You have to remember that Peru had 500 years of unregulated intensive mining of many metals
which was never cleaned up. There is also the factor that every modern city founded in Peru
since the 1500 has no clear waste management policy or waste cleanup process. All these accumulated
trash was never cleaned in any government. Whatever land is leftover, it is still diminishing at an
alarming rate. After the agricultural reform progress was frozen in Peru for over 30 years, famine
and millions were lost. Still to this year 2013. None of this factors have been fixed.

It is true that those plantations exist but their existance is constantly threatened by the pollution
created by industries and cities.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby tomsax » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:44 pm

falconagain wrote:
tomsax wrote:I remember seeing scissors dances in Peru in 1987 so the idea that they didn't exist before 2000 is simply false. The dances still happen as part of traditional ferias in parts of Peru that have almost no tourism. They are largely dances by Peruvians, for Peruvians, although of course they also appear in penas, tourist shows and exhibitions of Peruvian dances abroad. But when they do it is always in a very sanitised form.
It is authentically Peruvian and a folk tradition also with more modern influences.


I said that there was no written record available to students in school and college during those years,
which is actually true as the publication of the scissors dance was limited to certain decades and this
books were not available to the general public. Besides that is really funny to find out about this traditions
later when your family belongs to the region that celebrates the.

This kind of folkloric misunderstanding does not happen in any country besides Peru. Once a tradition
is set there is plenty of documentation and detailed history that allows you to learn more about. In Peru
usually there is 2 or 3 books with no a additional references.


I have no idea what you are talking about!
Tom
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby chi chi » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:22 pm

tomsax wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about!


Neither do I.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby sbaustin » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:01 am

After having experienced it more times than I can count I think that in general the Peruvian culture values time differently than the USA culture. For better or worse I'd advise you never (well consider who you are meeting) to arrive on time to any place where you might be meeting a group of people. For instance we were invited to a dinner last night that was supposed to be from 8 to 11 and the people that invited us showed up at 9:45. I only mention this because it is rather common.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby chi chi » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:15 am

Not flushing toilet paper and putting in a bin is for me the biggest shock.

That's why I only go to the toilet at home where I flush it.
Otherwise, when I go to a restaurant and go to the toilet, I won't eat anymore after seeing a bin full of used toilet paper.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:39 pm

Everyday I am hoping that Peru gets its priorities straight and invests their surplus
money in decent compost technology for all bathrooms. Is that too much to ask.

I am not asking to put an ugly Peruvian dog or a Peruvian in space, more laptops
for poor children with no electricity, or access to other stuff. But simply and well
developed compost technology. Why they cannot do it ??? All talking and no action???
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby falconagain » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:09 am

SmartKitty wrote:
sbaustin wrote:Smartkitty,

Your post comes across pretty racist. "many short dark skinned people in dark clothing, black, brown colors don't suit them very well."? You may have not meant it that way, but to state that as some kind of cultural shock is extremely bizarre and in poor taste.

You see it racist? Maybe because you are one? I'm talking about shocking combination of colors and size: dark skin +dark clothes + short people, at the beginning is very strange just because anybody expects more variety (tall, short, medium) and definitely much more color, South America, tropical country, palm trees, bright colors... if you understand what I mean.

BTW, please, don't qualify my posting with your words, if you have a twisted mind, keep it to yourself, please. In my posting not a word related to the race.


At the time when Fujimori dissolved congress he started to use the military to keep the order.
The media and all the people on the city called the members of the army
"los enanitos verdes" aka the tiny green men (because each member of the army was 4 feet tall average,
skinny and used the same cheap green clothes) ,
a known comedian named Carlos Alvarez in channel 2 used this nick name to promote his program
for a couple of years. He started the advertising dressed as a congressman then the camera pan out
to him (he is 5.2 and fat) and after that the camera moved to show the soldiers with him in front of
them. People laughed and made variations of the joke for years without any complaints of racism.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby Hitoruna » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:48 am

Yeah, if only all of us could be aryan cherubin like you find in Ecuador...(sigh) :roll:
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby Hitoruna » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:51 am

Btw, sarcasm aside, it is a shame that this threath in which you have to put things that shocked you from Peru because of BOTH Peru and YOUR OWN fault, has degenerated in just Peru bashing.

I live in a country with many things different from Peru, but I understand that some of the shocks I find is not their fault but my own.My own perception, values, etc. Same everywhere
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby BellbottomBlues » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:45 pm

Because we each view culture through the lens of our personal experience, it would be hard for anyone to remain impartial in their views and so some negative responses are not surprising. Although the positive ones are most welcome! LOL

Yesterday, I finally stumbled across some better descriptors for my honey and me....Anglo American and Latin American. This acknowledges that we are both American. Interestingly, we're also both Italian (great grandparents for him and me)....but you'd never guess it from first meeting us, only after seeing our love for life would you later be not surprised.

The world is tiny.

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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby goalie3443 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:38 pm

I have to say that the pay toilet stand around in places. I mean you are out shopping in Gamarra and you go by the lady sitting there with her box of centavos and little swatches of TP it is so funny. Funny unless you just ate at McDonalds and you are trying to hurry.

Its just something I just cannot figure out. I know it has to be a government operation to conserve water must be.

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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby dendrojosh » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:52 pm

chi chi wrote:Not flushing toilet paper and putting in a bin is for me the biggest shock.

That's why I only go to the toilet at home where I flush it.
Otherwise, when I go to a restaurant and go to the toilet, I won't eat anymore after seeing a bin full of used toilet paper.


Bathrooms have been the thing that has grossed me out the most here.... I hear ya on the trash bin full of used TP. Here at home, I sometimes see used womens heigene products chillin on a pile of trash in the bathroom... Makes me wanna ralf....

I haven't had too many cutlure shocks at all since I have been here. The bathroom thing, the pollution, how outrageously packed the buses and combi vans get.... and they are still trying to squeeze just one more person in.... and the noise have been the biggest things for me. One thing that has still amazed me is how quiet and tranquil the dogs are during the day, but as soon as it is like 1 in the morning and you're trying to sleep... One dog will start barking and then a few down the street will start barking. then all of a sudden every dog in the neighborhood is barking... within a few minutes, I swear every dang dog in the entire city is barking at the same time..... It's like that scene in 101 dalmations when the news spreads of the kidnapping of the puppies... one dog starts howling, spreading the news and all of a sudden the whole city was ablaze in howls...
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby chi chi » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:02 am

dendrojosh wrote:
the pollution, how outrageously packed the buses and combi vans get.... and they are still trying to squeeze just one more person in.... and the noise have been the biggest things for me. One thing that has still amazed me is how quiet and tranquil the dogs are during the day, but as soon as it is like 1 in the morning and you're trying to sleep... One dog will start barking and then a few down the street will start barking. then all of a sudden every dog in the neighborhood is barking


Polution, packed buses and combis and noise?

Where do you live then?
Where I live, there's no polution, heavy traffic or noise at all.
We have sunshine all year round and the crime rate is very low.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby dendrojosh » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:14 pm

chi chi wrote:
dendrojosh wrote:
the pollution, how outrageously packed the buses and combi vans get.... and they are still trying to squeeze just one more person in.... and the noise have been the biggest things for me. One thing that has still amazed me is how quiet and tranquil the dogs are during the day, but as soon as it is like 1 in the morning and you're trying to sleep... One dog will start barking and then a few down the street will start barking. then all of a sudden every dog in the neighborhood is barking


Polution, packed buses and combis and noise?

Where do you live then?
Where I live, there's no polution, heavy traffic or noise at all.
We have sunshine all year round and the crime rate is very low.


I live in Jose Galvez/ Villa Maria del Triunfo.
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Re: Biggest Culture Shocks?

Postby PaloAL » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:12 am

@Smartkitty
So? I was in many countries in Asia and Latin America and I am also an engineer working in Defense projects all around the world, now retired and now I'm an artist, btw successful one. Here we are talking about 1st year impressions and culture shock. Each Latin American country is different and arriving to Lima, just going from the airport anybody see dirtiness and dark colors, then, with more time you get used to it.

Ecological products? BS! The water is not only a bad quality, it poisons you sometimes even after boiling it well or filtering, that's how I met my doctor. Chicken... be a little curious and ask how it's raised. Fruits and vegetables... ask about ddt and chemicals used in the fresh produce. You think in Peru everything is organic? Peru is a big dumpster for stuff which are prohibited in many developed countries including prohibited medicine.

An engineer living in a dreamland.


Could you please provide some links for the food products, I have seen plenty of links for the poor water quality, but would love to know about the chemicals you mention, or is this just a personal opinion?

Thanks.

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