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Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:41 pm
by Ragnorak20
Hello everyone,

A couple of weeks ago I was looking for an artist that drew in a manga style way to help me on an album cover. Well, I posted on a Facebook page of a group of artists and some dude told he could do it. I explained him the details through inbox and how I wanted to do 10 covers and he told me he would charge me S/.150 for all of them including a brain storming session.

So we met up at Bembos and he showed me his artwork and I realised he drew in an competent but amateurish way. Despite this, I liked his art style and told him just to do two covers and I would pay him S/.30, he was at first reluctant but then I told him I would pay him S/.5 more and we shaked on it. I asked him if I could pay him half right away but he told me that he would prefer the complete payment for next week. In addition, he told me he would be sending me sketches of the covers through inbox.

The thing is that I received, a message from him a couple of days ago,something along the lines that "I was paying him too little and that... if I ask someone else they would charge me a lot more and that he wishes me good luck finding someone else to help me" So I simply replied if I could pay him a bit more S/.40 at this stage I was willing to bargain and arrange a new price. However, I just realised that instead of replying he simply unfriended me from Facebook. At first I was angry but now I am just puzzled as to why he would do that? Maybe he thought I was scamming him? Or that I had a lot of money, (I brought a Mac to our meeting.)

It angers me a bit as he has make me waste my time,instead of looking for a solution he simply just left the project has any of you had similar experiences?

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:07 pm
by caliguy
why didnt you let him put a price on his work instead of you offering 30 or 35 soles? Artists can be very offended by people putting a small price tag on their work.
just my opinoion, and good luck :D

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:39 pm
by sbaustin
It sounds like the person you were dealing with was honest in that he didn't just take some money and disappear as well as he messaged you letting you know he didn't want to work with you as well as why. The artist probably realized that his original pricing for ten was way too low and probably felt that negotiating would have been a waste of his time. You might open a new thread here and ask here if anyone knows of any artists that do the style you are looking for and that are professional (they will probably charge a lot more than s/150).

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:00 pm
by Ragnorak20
@caliguy

I think he should have been upfront with me during the meeting, instead of agreeing and then changing his mind. I asked him what price he thought would be right and he just remained quiet.


@sbaustin
What puzzles me is why taking a extremely close stance of saying I won't do it and then unfriending me on Facebook, when during the meeting he appeared cool with what were agreeing on. I think someone might have told him that I was trying to rip him off.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:16 pm
by caliguy
i've had a few bad dealings in Lima also, i just cut my losses and get on with life. this so called "changing ones mind" happens alot here.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:27 pm
by sbaustin
Ragnorak20 wrote:
@sbaustin
What puzzles me is why taking a extremely close stance of saying I won't do it and then unfriending me on Facebook, when during the meeting he appeared cool with what were agreeing on. I think someone might have told him that I was trying to rip him off.


By unfriending you he just didn't want to negotiate and I understand your frustration as I've dealt with plenty of it with people not turning in work, people not showing up, showing up 5 hours late, etc. He obviously wasn't professional considering what seemed to be his extremely low price he quoted you so you'll probably end up with someone better at the end.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:49 pm
by Ragnorak20
@caliguy @sbaustin

Thank you very much for your replies. I really like this forum as the members have helped me understand most of these social situations which don't make sense to me. I don't get why some limeños act the way they do, I guess it must be the culture.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:47 pm
by gringito
@Ragnorak:
You explained a nice and tipical situation.

According to our usual western understanding you had a binding agreement (you offered a certain payment – and he agreed) – irrespectively if the payment you offered was too low or not (it was low, by the way).

Unfortunately, I have very, very seldom seen a Peruvian contractor complying with an agreement. Nearly ALL of them RENEGOTIATE an agreement AFTER it is settled:
“Hay, pero tengo 6 hijos, butch, pero resulto que la chamba es mucho mas difícil ,sabes; pero no me has dicho que también tengo que realizar este detalle; pero la obra me (…) duraba mucho mas tiempo, etc. etc. etc.”).

Usually ,it is always the CLIENT (i.e. YOU) who gets chewed.

When yo tell the Peruvian counterpart, “hey, we had a binding agreement” instead of offering him/her MORE money (even for his/her own delays, errors, etc.) , he/she gets offended, i.e. the Peruvian pride comes into play. Some get agressive, some will makea scene (many are really good actors, BTW), some simply abandon the work (as in your case).

According to my point of view this is a very "normal "incident here in Lima/Peru.

How to avoid such situations:
Talk with friends and aks them with which persons they made good experience. If you ever find a good Peruvian contractor: stay with him! Even accept a higher price since a cheap guy that abandons his works will cost you much more in the end.

Let your Peruvian counterpart make the first offer. If you are a Gringo consider the following: Cara gringa paga doble!! (i.e. a Gringo face pays the double price – and quite often not only double but 3 or 4 times more). Then begin to negotiate, i.e. make a counter offer. Etc. Etc. You can literally feel when you got to the point where you should abort – or agree.

Suerte.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:34 am
by chi chi
The guy thought you could pay more so he got ''vivo'' and tried to get more money from you.
That happens in every country, every business.

Just turn your back to him for sure in a few days he will ring you back begging to do business with you.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:31 pm
by miaperu
I would not get out of bed for 30 soles. But that is beside the point, Peru is full of people who are unreliable, unpunctual and could not give Sol whether or not anyone cares...that is the reason half the country looks like it has just been nuked!!! Like it or lump it!

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:28 am
by teamoperu
chi chi wrote:The guy thought you could pay more so he got ''vivo'' and tried to get more money from you.
That happens in every country, every business.

Just turn your back to him for sure in a few days he will ring you back begging to do business with you.


So OP, did this prediction happen?

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:51 pm
by Ragnorak20
teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:The guy thought you could pay more so he got ''vivo'' and tried to get more money from you.
That happens in every country, every business.

Just turn your back to him for sure in a few days he will ring you back begging to do business with you.


So OP, did this prediction happen?


No, since I blocked him from Facebook, but he could have given me a call. But who cares, I don't plan on seeing him ever again.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:44 pm
by ironchefchris
I have a friend who made an agreement to sell a very large bag full of new and worn only once clothing to a long time family friend. The friend, an older woman, is not short of cash, as she is something of a money lender/loan shark. The offer was for S/150 (a very fair price considering the amount and quality of clothes) and the friend/loan shark talked her down to S/130 to be paid later as (she said) she didn't have the money right now. When it came time to pay, my friend was given S/100. "What about the other S/30?" The woman said she didn't have it, and that all she was going to pay was the S/100. My friend was a bit upset and didn't think it fair, especially considering that the woman most certainly has far more than the S/30. I told her I would ask her for it every time I saw her in the future - especially if other people were around, figuring nobody wants to be shamed and embarrassed for not following through on their word. My friend has decided to do nothing and just let it slide but told me she won't be doing business with this person again (which she probably shouldn't have done in the first place).

Is this a normal way of doing business in Peru? Making a handshake deal with a long time family friend and then having that person go back on their word? Does one's word mean anything in Peru, or should every transaction be in written form? Am I an overly aggressive, rude gringo if I were (in my friends shoes) to use tactics involving shame and embarrassment to get someone to fulfill their end of a deal? Should all transactions, even amongst friends, be on a cash and carry basis to avoid such issues? I ask because I've been here less than a year and don't fully understand how things are done. I've had people go back on their word while living in the states, so I'm not saying that people in the states are more upstanding when it comes to keeping their word - but when it happens I don't expect it and don't tolerate it. I've found a good way to get people to respond (who've been ducking and unresponsive after many months of unfulfilled "mañanas" when it comes to keeping their word) is to leave a final message or text, expressing concern about their disappearance and suggest that it is time to get friends and family involved in an intervention. Suddenly these people become available and offer a lame excuse as to why they've been unresponsive (after abandoning the lie of "mañana, mañana, I'll get you back mañana") because I figure they don't want to go through the shame and embarrassment of everyone knowing they can't keep their word. Maybe I'm an a$$hole, maybe it's just my NYC upbringing, but after many such problems I got tired of being taken advantage of.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:45 am
by teamoperu
It is quite common for them to ask to pay in quotas, pay a few and then not pay the final quota(s). It may even be SOP. Your assumption many would feel ashamed of doing this is unfounded.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:33 am
by ironchefchris
"Your assumption many would feel ashamed of doing this is unfounded." - thought that would be the case.

SOP???

What's the best way to handle these types of situations? Assuming I'm looking to get S/150, should I ask for S/200, negotiate down to S/175, and then be happy when I (hopefully) get the S/150, assuming not to expect the last payment of S/25? Is not making the final payment just the last negotiating step on the part of the buyer - something the seller should recognize and take into account when agreeing on a price? On a larger purchase, say a car, would you insist on total payment up front? If it were a friend or someone you knew and they wanted to make payments, should a written contract be involved to avoid this situation? I like to have trust in my friends and associates, but not if its going to cost me because of a cultural difference in the way business is handled as far as taking one's word literally. I'd feel awkward asking a friend or neighbor to sign a contract when their word alone should suffice, but it sounds as if a promise without a written contract does not suffice. If this is the case, I'd rather feel awkward with a contract than angry because my friend took advantage of me and didn't keep their word.

Does this work both ways? Can I, the gringo, only pay what I want (should i think the price too high) and not what I agreed to pay without any hard feelings, or does this make me tacaño?

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:09 pm
by minos
Interestingly, ha ha ha! In my view, has to be a known friend(Of course, you must be sure that there is outlaw friend, "facineroso") , with whom you agreed upon payment for parties, preferably not unknown.

With regard to treatment, if the person says 100 New Soles, you should know that it will negotiate a minimum 90 (10%). Negotiate 30 soles, I do not think anywhere in the world is acceptable, But still it is always good to make a prior investigation of price and quality comparison. However, in Peru women do a lot, confident in their coquetry but I do not believe they receive good products, you know "what you have your pay" (¡lo barato sale caro!), and not very honest.

With respect to the issue of clothing sold, cash is preferred, had told the waiting politely until such time, and if not return as you would have no guilt.
I have nothing against women, but knowing the Peruvians, had returned with 120 new soles saying he had no more, also because it is a professional trader,that might have been a good business for you.

But you can still do good business, if you're lucky, for example if the person confesses that this hurry to go on a trip, and need the money, then she can make a kind of auction, but always with the consent of the other person ie something honest for both parties, you understand, and not pursue it because you might see as a Jew



I think if you do treatment for "services" is preferable that the person has a workplace, this gives many clues, as the person is in the light.

Re: Frustrating business transactions, unreasonable people

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:17 pm
by teamoperu
Ragnorak20 wrote:
teamoperu wrote:
chi chi wrote:The guy thought you could pay more so he got ''vivo'' and tried to get more money from you.
That happens in every country, every business.

Just turn your back to him for sure in a few days he will ring you back begging to do business with you.


So OP, did this prediction happen?


No, since I blocked him from Facebook, but he could have given me a call. But who cares, I don't plan on seeing him ever again.


I was simpy interested to find out if Senor ChiChi was right or wrong, and it seems he was wrong... again.