Kratistos wrote:Thank's everyone for your replies.
I wish I could answer to all of you individually. More importantly your posts inspired me to make some conceptual distinctions that are useful to our discussion.
First, the idea of flexible status. I saw some of you brought the example of a maid. While it is true that a maid can be treated unfairly her treatment can improve. A maid is performing role within Peruvian society. If she abandons this role and she can become more integrated.Her status consists of race+class. She can leave her old job,dress better and learn Spanish. In contrast, in America that integration is not possible. A person has a fixed status based on their race. A black professor can have the education, manners and nice clothing. But these traits won't stop the police from profiling him at night.They identify him as a black individual, therefore, the same stereotypes that might be associated with a black person lacking all these positive traits will apply to him. I call this essentialized self, where only one trait,skin color, determines a person's treatment.
Second, the idea of "multiracial" versus "multicultural." A multiracial society would be ideal. Multiculturalism on the surface is a good idea, but it inherently has a negative aim. It pronounces differences between groups that inevitably lead to conflicts. We are seeing this development in Europe, especially, in England where Muslims are creating Sharia Law only zones. Extreme right wing groups like the National Front arise from immigrants refusing to integrate to the mainstream culture. Why would the immigrants refuse to adopt the values of their host country? Yet you can never speak about this at liberal colleges in America. There is the pervasive "demarcation of discurse" were professors vehemently refuse to acknowledge any responsibility for immigrants and blame everything on Western culture. Not to delve into conspiracy theories, but the Professors' action further aid the "divide and conquer' narrative. The professors drive the students to look for answers in right wing circles, were these ideas are openly discussed.
tomsax wrote:Kratistos wrote:Thank's everyone for your replies.
I wish I could answer to all of you individually. More importantly your posts inspired me to make some conceptual distinctions that are useful to our discussion.
First, the idea of flexible status. I saw some of you brought the example of a maid. While it is true that a maid can be treated unfairly her treatment can improve. A maid is performing role within Peruvian society. If she abandons this role and she can become more integrated.Her status consists of race+class. She can leave her old job,dress better and learn Spanish. In contrast, in America that integration is not possible. A person has a fixed status based on their race. A black professor can have the education, manners and nice clothing. But these traits won't stop the police from profiling him at night.They identify him as a black individual, therefore, the same stereotypes that might be associated with a black person lacking all these positive traits will apply to him. I call this essentialized self, where only one trait,skin color, determines a person's treatment.
Second, the idea of "multiracial" versus "multicultural." A multiracial society would be ideal. Multiculturalism on the surface is a good idea, but it inherently has a negative aim. It pronounces differences between groups that inevitably lead to conflicts. We are seeing this development in Europe, especially, in England where Muslims are creating Sharia Law only zones. Extreme right wing groups like the National Front arise from immigrants refusing to integrate to the mainstream culture. Why would the immigrants refuse to adopt the values of their host country? Yet you can never speak about this at liberal colleges in America. There is the pervasive "demarcation of discurse" were professors vehemently refuse to acknowledge any responsibility for immigrants and blame everything on Western culture. Not to delve into conspiracy theories, but the Professors' action further aid the "divide and conquer' narrative. The professors drive the students to look for answers in right wing circles, were these ideas are openly discussed.
Why should a maid have to change the way she dresses, change her job and learn Spanish to be able to be treated fairly. I don't see why you have put the versus in the title of this post. Why should we discriminate on the basis of either race or culture. I love multiculturalism.
lizzym wrote:While it is true that a maid can be treated unfairly her treatment can improve. A maid is performing role within Peruvian society. If she abandons this role and she can become more integrated.Her status consists of race+class. She can leave her old job,dress better and learn Spanish. In contrast, in America that integration is not possible. A person has a fixed status based on their race. A black professor can have the education, manners and nice clothing. But these traits won't stop the police from profiling him at night.
I'm sorry, what??? A maid can abandon her method of dress, learn Spanish and then she can move up in society? Are you actually serious about this comment?
My ex, the father of my child, was raised in a maid's room, in the house where his mom cleaned and took care of the family's babies instead of her own. She spoke fluent Spanish -- her own grandmother was sure to prevent any Quechua from negatively affecting her offspring ... she pretended not to know any Quechua at all, despite speaking almost no Spanish herself (the grandmother) so that her children and grandchildren would be forced to speak only Spanish. (This, in itself, is a terrible shame.) And you talk about the clothes they wear? She wore maid's clothes, and my ex, her son, wore whatever rags she could afford. During her off hours, she collected trash in the street that she could resell. Yeah, one of those people foraging through your trash that you see in Surco or Miraflores or San Borja that you wish would just go away.
Your ignorance is of that peculiar type that still imagines that one's wealth comes from individual choices. There's something to be said for that, and then there's the rest of reality. At least here in the US we're actively creating and pursuing that dialogue that recognizes problems, that throws them out into the open. Because that is the one thing that angered me most about Peruvian society: there can be so many problems in plain sight, there for everyone to see, and yet no one allows the dialogue to happen .... that invaluable dialogue that says "THIS is the problem, THIS is wrong, THIS must be fixed. So, how as a society do we fix THIS."
lizzym wrote:Also, I'm sorry but your "multiculturalism vs. multiracialism" comment is just stupid. I have to call it like it is.
You say that multiracialism is ok, but multiculturalism is problematic (in a less articulate way, but I think that's what you were getting at.) And this, of course, either ignores or is ignorant of sweeping racial and cultural realities. I won't go into a deep explanation -- after all, it's not my job to educate you. I'll just say that, on balance, if you accept multiracialism but reject multiculturalism, then you're essentially endorsing cultural hegemony in which the dominant or "preferred" culture reigns, in which case any race associated with the "less desired" or "minority" cultures get oppressed and forced out of the mainstream society/economy/education system. Do you see a pattern here? Also,can you recognize that you're essentially supporting the status quo in both the US and Peru (and, for that matter, most of the world)?
So yes, your particular ignorance on this particular subject is particularly important ... to a lot of people who suffer oppression, poverty, and injustice every day through no fault of their own. So much for individual choices.
Kratistos wrote:Because that is the reality of Peruvian Culture. We should help her be more integrated and these changes would allow for more positive change to her. I actually want her to have a voice.
tomsax wrote:Kratistos wrote:Because that is the reality of Peruvian Culture. We should help her be more integrated and these changes would allow for more positive change to her. I actually want her to have a voice.
Why doesn't the maid get the "this is the reality of Peruvian culture' pass card. Why can't her employers 'integrate' also.
I think you should expect better behaviour from people who employ maids and not condone bad beahviour by saying 'its just part of the culture'. A spade should be called a spade.