Where's The Beef?

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69roadrunner
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Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:19 pm

Numbers have been bandied about and politics has entered weather or not this or that country is doing things right. I think we have lost sight of the greater point.
In countries where draconian measures have been mandated, people have been forced to stay at home with threats of jail, domestic violence has escalated, businesses closed down never to reopen, economies destroyed. All for what? 1,300,000 infections worldwide?

I think when the tyrants lift their foot off our backs we are going ask "All that for what"? "I no longer have a job. My savings are gone. I lost my house. I was evicted from my apartment. Lost my car because I could not keep up the payments". And guess what? Mexico will be the the last man standing with its economy in tact businesses open and thriving, with its more humane treatment of its citizens. No need to rob its treasury.


Liberties were easily taken away, do you think governments will forget how easily they were taken away? How easy it was to scare the steeple?


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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby alan » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:49 am

69roadrunner wrote:In countries where draconian measures have been mandated, people have been forced to stay at home with threats of jail, domestic violence has escalated, businesses closed down never to reopen, economies destroyed. All for what? 1,300,000 infections worldwide?



But isn't this the point? How many more people would have become ill, and how many would have died, if these measures had not been put in place?

This virus, bad as it is, is nothing compared to others. It could have been much, much worse. Hopefully the world will heed this wake up call and be better prepared the next time.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:02 am

Alan wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:In countries where draconian measures have been mandated, people have been forced to stay at home with threats of jail, domestic violence has escalated, businesses closed down never to reopen, economies destroyed. All for what? 1,300,000 infections worldwide?



But isn't this the point? How many more people would have become ill, and how many would have died, if these measures had not been put in place?

This virus, bad as it is, is nothing compared to others. It could have been much, much worse. Hopefully the world will heed this wake up call and be better prepared the next time.



No that is not the point "many more people would have become ill". The point is economies destroyed, lives destroyed, businesses destroyed, families destroyed.
Could've, would've, should've or aliens have landed we have no way of knowing how much worse it could have been, do we. All we have is cold hard numbers. We do know what has been destroyed, don't we.

There have been worse viruses in just the last hundred years. Spanish Flu, Asian Flu, AIDS, H1N1 Swine Flu, West African Ebola, Zika Virus.

Hopefully we won't stand for such tyrannical measures next time or let governments panic and scare the sheeple. The only thing 'bad' about this virus, compared to other viruses, is the governmental, draconian mandates and fear tactics.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:22 pm

69roadrunner wrote:
Alan wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
No that is not the point "many more people would have become ill". The point is economies destroyed, lives destroyed, businesses destroyed, families destroyed.
Could've, would've, should've or aliens have landed we have no way of knowing how much worse it could have been, do we. All we have is cold hard numbers. We do know what has been destroyed, don't we.

There have been worse viruses in just the last hundred years. Spanish Flu, Asian Flu, AIDS, H1N1 Swine Flu, West African Ebola, Zika Virus.

Hopefully we won't stand for such tyrannical measures next time or let governments panic and scare the sheeple. The only thing 'bad' about this virus, compared to other viruses, is the governmental, draconian mandates and fear tactics.


I see economies and businesses are really important in this capitalist world but you notice the places where most people are dying are the ones who want to flout and ignore the lockdown.

There is a reason why it is America, Spain, Italy and the UK where tens of thousands of people are dying and not Finland and Poland.

Or Singapore - how many people SHOULD be dying there but aren't because they're doing as they're told.

Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lockdown.

And I would rather listen to medical experts on this that some 'live free or die' cretin (not saying that's you by the way)

And no-one is making you stay in Peru if you find their lockdown a bit too 'tyrannical' - I have heard Belarus is nice... :?
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:23 pm

Alan wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:In countries where draconian measures have been mandated, people have been forced to stay at home with threats of jail, domestic violence has escalated, businesses closed down never to reopen, economies destroyed. All for what? 1,300,000 infections worldwide?



But isn't this the point? How many more people would have become ill, and how many would have died, if these measures had not been put in place?

This virus, bad as it is, is nothing compared to others. It could have been much, much worse. Hopefully the world will heed this wake up call and be better prepared the next time.


Exactly.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby Alpineprince » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:21 pm

It has always been about not "overloading" Peru's limited medical system. Many of us will develop the virus sooner or later but if all the hospital beds are taken Doctors will not be able to perform other possibly life-saving procedures. The Economies of the world will come back in time. Thank God Peru managed it's economy correctly ( given the amount of corruption) and had the reserves to fight this virus. In the future I hope they invest in respirators that are not manual.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:16 pm

billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
Alan wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
No that is not the point "many more people would have become ill". The point is economies destroyed, lives destroyed, businesses destroyed, families destroyed.
Could've, would've, should've or aliens have landed we have no way of knowing how much worse it could have been, do we. All we have is cold hard numbers. We do know what has been destroyed, don't we.

There have been worse viruses in just the last hundred years. Spanish Flu, Asian Flu, AIDS, H1N1 Swine Flu, West African Ebola, Zika Virus.

Hopefully we won't stand for such tyrannical measures next time or let governments panic and scare the sheeple. The only thing 'bad' about this virus, compared to other viruses, is the governmental, draconian mandates and fear tactics.


I see economies and businesses are really important in this capitalist world but you notice the places where most people are dying are the ones who want to flout and ignore the lockdown.

There is a reason why it is America, Spain, Italy and the UK where tens of thousands of people are dying and not Finland and Poland.

Or Singapore - how many people SHOULD be dying there but aren't because they're doing as they're told.

Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lockdown.

And I would rather listen to medical experts on this that some 'live free or die' cretin (not saying that's you by the way)

And no-one is making you stay in Peru if you find their lockdown a bit too 'tyrannical' - I have heard Belarus is nice... :?


You said, "I see economies and businesses are really important in this capitalist world but you notice the places where most people are dying are the ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down."
And where are the "ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down," pray tell?

You said "There is a reason why it is America, Spain, Italy and the UK where tens of thousands of people are dying and not Finland and Poland."
What is the reason, pray tell?

You said "Or Singapore - how many people SHOULD be dying there but aren't because they're doing as they're told."
And why SHOULD they be dying, pray tell?

You said "Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lock down."
And so does walking across a street, driving a car.

You said "And no-one is making you stay in Peru if you find their lock down a bit too 'tyrannical' - I have heard Belarus is nice... "
Last I heard the tyrants in Peru shut down the airport. And thank you for pointing that out but this is my home. And I never knew that was a choice.....if the tyrants had not shut down the airport.
Although I may consider checking out Mexico. I hear they are not so over reactive an tyrannical.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:39 pm

69roadrunner wrote:[
You said, "I see economies and businesses are really important in this capitalist world but you notice the places where most people are dying are the ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down."
And where are the "ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down," pray tell?


The United Kingdom for a start - thousands are STILL flouting lockdown.

The UK's initial stratergy was something similar to your 'herd immunity' and it was only when experts told them this was a silly idea that they changed their mind but it was too late and now thousands of people are dead! It nearly took the life of the PM - the facts are that they didn't do anything in the outset and the local populations didn't heed warnings like they didn't in the beginning in Spain and Italy - guess what - thousands of people are now dead!


You said "There is a reason why it is America, Spain, Italy and the UK where tens of thousands of people are dying and not Finland and Poland."
What is the reason, pray tell?


Because in some places governments place down measures to miminise risks and people do as they're told...


You said "Or Singapore - how many people SHOULD be dying there but aren't because they're doing as they're told."
And why SHOULD they be dying, pray tell?


Because people did as they were told there - which is why - there aren't tens of thousands of people dying all over the world. Only in a few countries - am I right or what?


You said "Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lock down."
And so does walking across a street, driving a car.


But you can minimise your risks of dying by getting run over by looking both ways when you cross the road - I always do that and have never been run over yet, I have less risk of dying as a road fatality if I drive sensibly etc etc etc - it isn't just dumb luck I haven't ever been run over.



You said "And no-one is making you stay in Peru if you find their lock down a bit too 'tyrannical' - I have heard Belarus is nice... "
Last I heard the tyrants in Peru shut down the airport. And thank you for pointing that out but this is my home. And I never knew that was a choice.....if the tyrants had not shut down the airport.
Although I may consider checking out Mexico. I hear they are not so over reactive an tyrannical.


Oh, it's your HOME - well as a Peruvian citizen who is unhappy that you're very disatisfied with the customer service you have recieved from the government that they haven't acted in more libertarian ways that would infect and kill more people like it is doing in Spain, Italy, UK and your country - I hope you go and check out Mexico - a wonderful idea!
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:16 pm

69roadrunner wrote:Numbers have been bandied about and politics has entered weather or not this or that country is doing things right. I think we have lost sight of the greater point.
In countries where draconian measures have been mandated, people have been forced to stay at home with threats of jail, domestic violence has escalated, businesses closed down never to reopen, economies destroyed. All for what? 1,300,000 infections worldwide?

I think when the tyrants lift their foot off our backs we are going ask "All that for what"? "I no longer have a job. My savings are gone. I lost my house. I was evicted from my apartment. Lost my car because I could not keep up the payments". And guess what? Mexico will be the the last man standing with its economy in tact businesses open and thriving, with its more humane treatment of its citizens. No need to rob its treasury.


Liberties were easily taken away, do you think governments will forget how easily they were taken away? How easy it was to scare the steeple?

I was living in the US during 9/11 and off and on in the years following. As of a few days ago more people have died of this virus than did from 9/11. At the time people gladly gave away their liberties. The US govt. initiated the USA PATRIOT Act which took away rights from it's citizens and never gave them back. It created enhanced surveialance on it's own citizens. Made it so we all had to practically undress at the airport before getting on a plane.

I feel less certain of how the US govt. will capitalize on this current situation in the long term than I do about how the govt. here will. When this pandemic is truly under control and/or current restrictions are lifted I don't see Peru initiating anything worse than what the US govt. did after 9/11 as far as restricting rights or increasing surveialance on it's citizens. I don't see the desire. I could be wrong. I'm open to hearing exactly what people think Peru might do, or if they feel that Peru will simply try to get things back to as close to a pre-virus condition as possible.

One thing I find kind of alarming is the use of technology that tracks people's movements by their cellphone usage. Now it's being shown to be used for the good of dealing with this virus, or at least for scientific purposes to show how and in what specific areas people are spreading, but since the technology exists it's hard to imagine that it could never be used for other reasons that don't have to do with keeping people healthy and safe.

Here's an article talking about it and what countries are currently using this technology. I noticed Peru isn't on the list. Not sure if that's good or (considering the current pandemic situation) bad.

https://www.businessinsider.com/countri ... nt-maps-12
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:38 pm

billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:[
You said, "I see economies and businesses are really important in this capitalist world but you notice the places where most people are dying are the ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down."
And where are the "ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down," pray tell?


The United Kingdom for a start - thousands are STILL flouting lockdown.

The UK's initial stratergy was something similar to your 'herd immunity' and it was only when experts told them this was a silly idea that they changed their mind but it was too late and now thousands of people are dead! It nearly took the life of the PM - the facts are that they didn't do anything in the outset and the local populations didn't heed warnings like they didn't in the beginning in Spain and Italy - guess what - thousands of people are now dead!

The news has been filled over the last couple of days with reports of people in several US states who "flout and ignore the lock down."

https://www.ft.com/content/c8f6f413-39c ... 02969cb612

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12325761

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/16/us/p ... index.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... strictions

Image

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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:41 pm

Alpineprince wrote:It has always been about not "overloading" Peru's limited medical system. Many of us will develop the virus sooner or later but if all the hospital beds are taken Doctors will not be able to perform other possibly life-saving procedures. The Economies of the world will come back in time. Thank God Peru managed it's economy correctly ( given the amount of corruption) and had the reserves to fight this virus. In the future I hope they invest in respirators that are not manual.

This. What happens if everything reopens to soon, the hospitals with limited capacity have to deal with a spike in coronavirus patients needing intenisive care beds and staff that Peru doesn't have enough of, and then add in all of the car accidents, heart attacks, and other normal occurences where people need hospital stays or visits?
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:43 pm

Here are some articles showing countries who've gotten it right and what they all have in common:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivahwitt ... 5cb3ad3dec

Another interesting article comparing two similarly sized countries, located right next to each other and with comparable levels of wealth and resources. One got it right, one got it wrong:

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/17/21223915/ ... death-rate
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:03 am

billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
You said "Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lock down."
And so does walking across a street, driving a car.


But you can minimise your risks of dying by getting run over by looking both ways when you cross the road - I always do that and have never been run over yet, I have less risk of dying as a road fatality if I drive sensibly etc etc etc - it isn't just dumb luck I haven't ever been run over.

It doesn't make sense to just compare the numbers of deaths. Especially considering the virus expands exponentially and it's still unknown what the final number of coronavirus related deaths will be. In addition to being able to minimise your risks of dying by a car accident, the type of treatment needed for car accident victims doesn't involve specialized protective gear or treatment that puts others at risk because car accident victims are not spreading a highly contagious virus. The statisitics telling the number of car accidents are derived from accidents that are spread out over the course of the year. This spread doesn't impact the health care systems ability to treat other patients. Deaths from coronavirus will occur in spikes, especially if restrictions are lifted too soon. Unlike car accidents this will overwhelm most health care systems. More information below on why comparing coronavirus to car accidents is a false equivalency.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... hs-is-bad/
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:25 am

noclevername wrote:
billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
You said "Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lock down."
And so does walking across a street, driving a car.


But you can minimise your risks of dying by getting run over by looking both ways when you cross the road - I always do that and have never been run over yet, I have less risk of dying as a road fatality if I drive sensibly etc etc etc - it isn't just dumb luck I haven't ever been run over.

It doesn't make sense to just compare the numbers of deaths. Especially considering the virus expands exponentially and it's still unknown what the final number of coronavirus related deaths will be. In addition to being able to minimise your risks of dying by a car accident, the type of treatment needed for car accident victims doesn't involve specialized protective gear or treatment that puts others at risk because car accident victims are not spreading a highly contagious virus. The statisitics telling the number of car accidents are derived from accidents that are spread out over the course of the year. This spread doesn't impact the health care systems ability to treat other patients. Deaths from coronavirus will occur in spikes, especially if restrictions are lifted too soon. Unlike car accidents this will overwhelm most health care systems. More information below on why comparing coronavirus to car accidents is a false equivalency.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... hs-is-bad/


Well, roarunner used the comparison of crossing the road or dying in a road accident to coronavirus - not I - most people don't die in a road accident or when crossing the road which is what my point was - that and you can lessen your chances by taking precautions - that's all my point was - if you want to take it up with someone then take it up with him, I agree that comparing this virus to deaths by traffic accidents or by crossing the road isn't helpful.

As for the final consequece and stratergy that minimises the death toll - I don't think doing nothing works - the British wanted to go on a 'herd immunity' stratergy to 'protect the economy' and it was only when it was too late did they decided to do lockdown and with 15000 deaths later - we've learned a hard lesson - is the way Peru did it anti-libertarian - maybe, but it has saved many lives with the limited resources Peru has at its disposal - it has been a success.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:38 am

billybob72 wrote:
noclevername wrote:
billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
You said "Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lock down."
And so does walking across a street, driving a car.


But you can minimise your risks of dying by getting run over by looking both ways when you cross the road - I always do that and have never been run over yet, I have less risk of dying as a road fatality if I drive sensibly etc etc etc - it isn't just dumb luck I haven't ever been run over.

It doesn't make sense to just compare the numbers of deaths. Especially considering the virus expands exponentially and it's still unknown what the final number of coronavirus related deaths will be. In addition to being able to minimise your risks of dying by a car accident, the type of treatment needed for car accident victims doesn't involve specialized protective gear or treatment that puts others at risk because car accident victims are not spreading a highly contagious virus. The statisitics telling the number of car accidents are derived from accidents that are spread out over the course of the year. This spread doesn't impact the health care systems ability to treat other patients. Deaths from coronavirus will occur in spikes, especially if restrictions are lifted too soon. Unlike car accidents this will overwhelm most health care systems. More information below on why comparing coronavirus to car accidents is a false equivalency.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... hs-is-bad/


Well, roarunner used the comparison of crossing the road or dying in a road accident to coronavirus - not I - most people don't die in a road accident or when crossing the road which is what my point was - that and you can lessen your chances by taking precautions - that's all my point was - if you want to take it up with someone then take it up with him, I agree that comparing this virus to deaths by traffic accidents or by crossing the road isn't helpful.

As for the final consequece and stratergy that minimises the death toll - I don't think doing nothing works - the British wanted to go on a 'herd immunity' stratergy to 'protect the economy' and it was only when it was too late did they decided to do lockdown and with 15000 deaths later - we've learned a hard lesson - is the way Peru did it anti-libertarian - maybe, but it has saved many lives with the limited resources Peru has at its disposal - it has been a success.

I think you may have misunderstood me, but that's probably my fault, so apologies.

I agree with you 100%. I just added your quote for context and to show that others also believe that comparing deaths from coronavirus to deaths from car/pedestrian accidents is a false equivalency.

I don't think 'herd immunity' in and of itself is a bad thing. Like you said, it's a strategy. A tool, but like all tools not a tool that is best for every situation. If Peru or any other country had a health care system that could deal with having large numbers of patients needing intensive care all at the same time, with proper quantities of equipment and trained medical and support staff, herd immunity might be the way to go. But that capacity obviously isn't there, and understandibly it doesn't make financial sense to have a system with such capacity that would go unused for most of a century so I'm not blaming countries for lacking the capacity to practice an effective herd immunity strategy.

For the reason of limited resources that you mentioned I don't think Peru had any other choice but to do what's been done. Britain's a perfect example of what happens when do nothing and herd immunity is the strategy. Ironic that Boris wound up contracting the virus himself. No reason, or successful examples to point to, to believe that a do nothing herd immunity strategy would work anywhere else as long as they don't have the resources right now.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:37 am

billybob72 wrote:
Well, roarunner used the comparison of crossing the road or dying in a road accident to coronavirus - not I - most people don't die in a road accident or when crossing the road

Well, most people don't die from your deadly disease. In fact world wide only 156,114 people have died in a world population of 7.594 BILLION. I bet more people die laughing themselves to death, which is what I am in danger of from reading this chicken little dribble, as die from your deadly virus.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:44 am

noclevername wrote:
billybob72 wrote:
noclevername wrote:
billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
You said "Of course, you can do what you want and no-one can stop you but this virus kills people - I know this because I live in China and did Chinese lock down."
And so does walking across a street, driving a car.


But you can minimise your risks of dying by getting run over by looking both ways when you cross the road - I always do that and have never been run over yet, I have less risk of dying as a road fatality if I drive sensibly etc etc etc - it isn't just dumb luck I haven't ever been run over.

It doesn't make sense to just compare the numbers of deaths. Especially considering the virus expands exponentially and it's still unknown what the final number of coronavirus related deaths will be. In addition to being able to minimise your risks of dying by a car accident, the type of treatment needed for car accident victims doesn't involve specialized protective gear or treatment that puts others at risk because car accident victims are not spreading a highly contagious virus. The statisitics telling the number of car accidents are derived from accidents that are spread out over the course of the year. This spread doesn't impact the health care systems ability to treat other patients. Deaths from coronavirus will occur in spikes, especially if restrictions are lifted too soon. Unlike car accidents this will overwhelm most health care systems. More information below on why comparing coronavirus to car accidents is a false equivalency.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... hs-is-bad/


Well, roarunner used the comparison of crossing the road or dying in a road accident to coronavirus - not I - most people don't die in a road accident or when crossing the road which is what my point was - that and you can lessen your chances by taking precautions - that's all my point was - if you want to take it up with someone then take it up with him, I agree that comparing this virus to deaths by traffic accidents or by crossing the road isn't helpful.

As for the final consequece and stratergy that minimises the death toll - I don't think doing nothing works - the British wanted to go on a 'herd immunity' stratergy to 'protect the economy' and it was only when it was too late did they decided to do lockdown and with 15000 deaths later - we've learned a hard lesson - is the way Peru did it anti-libertarian - maybe, but it has saved many lives with the limited resources Peru has at its disposal - it has been a success.

I think you may have misunderstood me, but that's probably my fault, so apologies.

I agree with you 100%. I just added your quote for context and to show that others also believe that comparing deaths from coronavirus to deaths from car/pedestrian accidents is a false equivalency.

I don't think 'herd immunity' in and of itself is a bad thing. Like you said, it's a strategy. A tool, but like all tools not a tool that is best for every situation. If Peru or any other country had a health care system that could deal with having large numbers of patients needing intensive care all at the same time, with proper quantities of equipment and trained medical and support staff, herd immunity might be the way to go. But that capacity obviously isn't there, and understandibly it doesn't make financial sense to have a system with such capacity that would go unused for most of a century so I'm not blaming countries for lacking the capacity to practice an effective herd immunity strategy.

For the reason of limited resources that you mentioned I don't think Peru had any other choice but to do what's been done. Britain's a perfect example of what happens when do nothing and herd immunity is the strategy. Ironic that Boris wound up contracting the virus himself. No reason, or successful examples to point to, to believe that a do nothing herd immunity strategy would work anywhere else as long as they don't have the resources right now.


No worries, good post! :D
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:45 am

69roadrunner wrote:
billybob72 wrote:
Well, roarunner used the comparison of crossing the road or dying in a road accident to coronavirus - not I - most people don't die in a road accident or when crossing the road

Well, most people don't die from your deadly disease. In fact world wide only 156,114 people have died in a world population of 7.594 BILLION. I bet more people die laughing themselves to death, which is what I am in danger of from reading this chicken little dribble, as die from your deadly virus.


36000 Americans and 15000 Brits have died of this within a matter of weeks - what point does it have to get to, to be considered 'serious' :roll:
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:01 am

billybob72 wrote:36000 Americans and 15000 Brits have died of this within a matter of weeks - what point does it have to get to, to be considered 'serious' :roll:



More like a matter of months, no matter, never let cold hard facts get in the way.
Anyway, you are asking the wrong person. I have a fat pension so, monetarily, this does not effect me. Ask someone who has lost their job, home or business.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:12 am

69roadrunner wrote:
billybob72 wrote:36000 Americans and 15000 Brits have died of this within a matter of weeks - what point does it have to get to, to be considered 'serious' :roll:



More like a matter of months, no matter, never let cold hard facts get in the way.
Anyway, you are asking the wrong person. I have a fat pension so, monetarily, this does not effect me. Ask someone who has lost their job, home or business.


No, it has been a matter of weeks since lockdown in those countries - probably hasn't been a month, or if it has, just over a month...

The health of the people I love comes before anyones pension, home, job etc - I think most people would agree.

What do you know that the medical professionals don't? Unless you ARE a medical professional (but I doubt that you are...)
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:44 am

Well I guess you misunderstand the cold hard facts but don't let them get in the way. Deaths have been counted for months, the lock down has been 6 weeks.
Well when this is over I hope your loved ones will have a job, a place to live, able to shop all the normal things to return to, after the tyrants lift their feet off our backs.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby Wiracocha » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:32 am

Roadrunner must be absolutely delighted with his latest effort of sensitive shit-stirring. Maybe it's time for him to take a long walk on a short pier!!
W.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:44 am

Wiracocha wrote:Roadrunner must be absolutely delighted with his latest effort of sensitive shit-stirring. Maybe it's time for him to take a long walk on a short pier!!
W.

What's the beef? A little truth and sanity hurts?
Sounds like your motto might be "If you don't like the message, shoot the messenger", right?
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:24 pm

69roadrunner wrote:Well I guess you misunderstand the cold hard facts but don't let them get in the way. Deaths have been counted for months, the lock down has been 6 weeks.
Well when this is over I hope your loved ones will have a job, a place to live, able to shop all the normal things to return to, after the tyrants lift their feet off our backs.


We are talking about the LOCKDOWN - the lockdown has been in effect for weeks - and you can count them in weeks or months - eight weeks is around two months. Eight weeks (and we are talking about China...) is not a very long time.

How long has lockdown been in Peru? The United States? The UK? Not eight weeks, is it? The lockdown hasn't even been six weeks... you can't even count! It has been barely over a month - which is when the bodycount monitor started.

When this is over, I hope you don't think your totally unqualified opinion on something you know nothing about overrides the opinion of experts - or are you one of those who 'know more than the experts'
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:25 pm

69roadrunner wrote:
Wiracocha wrote:Roadrunner must be absolutely delighted with his latest effort of sensitive shit-stirring. Maybe it's time for him to take a long walk on a short pier!!
W.

What's the beef? A little truth and sanity hurts?


You bring neither. :roll:
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:45 am

billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:Well I guess you misunderstand the cold hard facts but don't let them get in the way. Deaths have been counted for months, the lock down has been 6 weeks.
Well when this is over I hope your loved ones will have a job, a place to live, able to shop all the normal things to return to, after the tyrants lift their feet off our backs.


We are talking about the LOCKDOWN - the lockdown has been in effect for weeks - and you can count them in weeks or months - eight weeks is around two months. Eight weeks (and we are talking about China...) is not a very long time.

How long has lockdown been in Peru? The United States? The UK? Not eight weeks, is it? The lockdown hasn't even been six weeks... you can't even count! It has been barely over a month - which is when the bodycount monitor started.

When this is over, I hope you don't think your totally unqualified opinion on something you know nothing about overrides the opinion of experts - or are you one of those who 'know more than the experts'



Picky, picky, picky. You really don't like the messengers message, do you? Kinda obvious the way you take my remarks so personal, probably want to shoot him too. Why do you take this so personal? Make personal attacks? Usually an indication a little truth and sanity hurts, makes one lash out. I understand.

All there are, right now, are OPINIONS. I am not entitled to one? My opinions are based on cold hard facts not models, projections guesses scare tactics as the "experts" like to lean on. They seem to ignore the cold hard numbers.

You might want to go back and read my first post. That is what I am talking about here. You took it all off topic, when you hijacked the thread with your agenda and what was already covered in other threads. I might ask if you comprehend what you read as you accuse me of not being able to count.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:47 am

billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
Wiracocha wrote:Roadrunner must be absolutely delighted with his latest effort of sensitive shit-stirring. Maybe it's time for him to take a long walk on a short pier!!
W.

What's the beef? A little truth and sanity hurts?


You bring neither. :roll:



And you do? With your seemingly love of lock downs and other tyrannical measures. Drinking the Kool Aid, as they say?
Like previously said read the first post.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Just as nobody loves taking nasty tasting medicine, having to go under a surgeon's knife to remove a cancerous tumor, or paying a mechanic a lot of money to fix the failing brakes on their car, nobody loves lockdowns. Some just realize that they're proven to be effective in dealing with global pandemics such as what we're dealing with now. Reports from reliable indepent sources show that countries that use lockdowns, and especially those who took early actions, are doing better than those who don't, or those who initially (still are?) brushed off the situation as a hoax or media hype and intiated them too late.

I don't know anyone who wants or who has advocated for lockdowns to continue longer than necessary. Like everyone else who has no problem with the use of temporary lockdowns, I'm looking forward to them ending so I can get back to work and return to life that, if not 'normal' (when compared to pre-coronavirus 'normal') at least will allow me to go out and live life with new, pre-vaccine restrictions (like maybe having to wear a mask or not congregate in large numbers in close quarters) instead of being almost completely restricted to being cooped up in the house. But for the moment I think they're necessary, effective, and I'm not buying into the baseless claims that they're completely unnessary, which no one in the scientific community has suggested or is backing up. I'm also not buying into the conpiracy theories and fear mongering that say what the scientists, medical professionals, and other experts in global pandemics are suggesting we do equates to tyranical measures. I'd rather be overly cautious when it comes to dealing with a highly contagious, deadly global pandemic with exponentially growing infection and death rates than stick my head in the sand and ignore the reality of the situation.

The only ones who love restricting the movement of it's citizens are leaders of countries that have a history of being autocratic long before COVID-19 or countries with leaders who have embraced autocratic rule. China, Russia, Brazil, Phillipines, N. Korea, etc..

Finding lockdowns to be an effective tool based on the recommendations of numerous international experts on global pandemics who think about people and don't seem to have a political agenda doesn't mean those who value the opinion of those trained and experienced scientists and experts over the opinions of politicians (esp. those seeking reelction) with no training or experience (or minimal at best) love lockdowns. Thinking they should'nt be lifted too soon also isn't the same as loving them.

It's ironic to watch people who use the word 'snowflake' to describe some people in a deragatory way themselves melting like snowflakes over what the experts are suggesting and those with common sense are following. Buck up like the rest of us who are thinking about society as a whole instead of just ourselves. Stop whining about poor, poor you not being able to do whatever you want, whenever you want, no matter how it might negatively impact others, such as the brave medical staff who are on the front lines of this crisis and are asking you to help them by staying home. Think back about the sacrifices made by people during WWII who during a time of crisis put the needs of society over their own personal desires and supported the war effort in order to defeat actual tyrany. Be glad you're not infected (yet?) and that a big part of that is because of leaders who are following the recommendations of experts they realize are more knowledgeable and experienced on this crisis and that are looking out for your health instead of just themselves. Be thankful for leaders who aren't acting out of selfish means, have announced they aren't running for reelection (giving up power is hardly tyranical) or have giant egos that need constant adulation and who routinely proclaim to know more than the experts on any and every subject when it's clear they don't.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:01 pm

Several weeks ago there were zero deaths. This virus spreads exponentially and no one knows what the final death number will be. The death rate from car accidents doesn't expand exponentially, victims of car accidents don't spread their misfortune to other hospital patients or staff, and victims of car accidents don't overwhelm hospitals and health care systems as far as intensive care resources and protective equipment needs.

Something an old university mate who's now got a Ph.D in Sociology recently posted:

Yeah... it's probably some mix of broadly 4 types:

1) Conspiracy theorists who believe bizarre things about it being fictitious or a guise for massive population control

2) People who are frustrated about being unable to provide financially and who are maybe not receiving benefits to address their struggle

3) People who don't understand the science/math (i.e. exponential growth) behind how our current distancing measures have actually created the very reality they are now citing as evidence for why the lockdown is pointless lol.

4) Fearful libertarians who believe in the slippery slope fallacies like sacrificing some amount of their personal freedom during a fucking pandemic will somehow inevitably lead to an authoritarian state. While many of my friends are libertarians, this is the worst time to be inflexible with the whole 'pro personal liberty at all costs' philosophy. It's an overly simple prescription.

Whichever camp they fall into, they all seem to be unaware of how their actions are increasing the gravity of the situation.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:04 pm

Image
I think we as a society should wait until we know we've made contact with the ground (gotten this highly contagious pandemic virus that's causing death at exponentially growing rates under control) before taking off the parachute. That doesn't mean it has to be all or nothing. Gradual and incremental steps can be taken to "reopen," primarily based on the recommendations of experts in global pandemics. I'm smart enough to know that I know far less than the experts on global pandemics and that they know more than the politicians or anyone else pushing for a rush to reopen without being able to provide a source from an reliable independent source that validates and advocates for completely reopening right now. I know that medical experts who have taken the Hippocratic oath and scientists with an expertise in global pandemics are putting the health of people first, not politics.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:06 pm

69roadrunner wrote:And where are the "ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down," pray tell?

Image
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:36 pm

noclevername wrote:
billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:[
You said, "I see economies and businesses are really important in this capitalist world but you notice the places where most people are dying are the ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down."
And where are the "ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down," pray tell?


The United Kingdom for a start - thousands are STILL flouting lockdown.

The UK's initial stratergy was something similar to your 'herd immunity' and it was only when experts told them this was a silly idea that they changed their mind but it was too late and now thousands of people are dead! It nearly took the life of the PM - the facts are that they didn't do anything in the outset and the local populations didn't heed warnings like they didn't in the beginning in Spain and Italy - guess what - thousands of people are now dead!

The news has been filled over the last couple of days with reports of people in several US states who "flout and ignore the lock down."

https://www.ft.com/content/c8f6f413-39c ... 02969cb612

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12325761

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/16/us/p ... index.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... strictions

Image

Image



Wouldn't you just know it......America is the first to rebel against the tyranny and throw off the chains of the tyrants. Thumb up America
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby samthesham » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:05 pm

noclevername wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:And where are the "ones who want to flout and ignore the lock down," pray tell?

Image


"Never take 
counsel of your fears"

Stonewall Jackson
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:50 pm

69roadrunner wrote:

Picky, picky, picky. You really don't like the messengers message, do you?


Because you aren't the messenger you aren't qualified in this subject to be a messenger you are an unqualified hack - so am I - which is why I take my advice from people who know something about it. What do you know about how to confront a global pandemic? Nothing!


Kinda obvious the way you take my remarks so personal, probably want to shoot him too. Why do you take this so personal? Make personal attacks? Usually an indication a little truth and sanity hurts, makes one lash out. I understand.


Because you're so unqualified to make the statements you make and class them as 'truth' when they're no such thing, and who's insulted you by the way? I haven't - just another example of snowflakes melting and playing the victim when they get back what they dish out.

All there are, right now, are OPINIONS. I am not entitled to one? My opinions are based on cold hard facts not models, projections guesses scare tactics as the "experts" like to lean on. They seem to ignore the cold hard numbers.


Like the countries that messed up their initial reaction to the pandemic coming their way now have tens of thousands dead, that's not Peru at this moment in time.

You might want to go back and read my first post. That is what I am talking about here. You took it all off topic, when you hijacked the thread with your agenda and what was already covered in other threads. I might ask if you comprehend what you read as you accuse me of not being able to count.


Your agenda is to protect big business, well, let me tell you a truth Mr Big Business - you need people, living people - to spend money on the products of big business. It's no good when the customer base is dead.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:53 pm

69roadrunner wrote:
billybob72 wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:
Wiracocha wrote:Roadrunner must be absolutely delighted with his latest effort of sensitive shit-stirring. Maybe it's time for him to take a long walk on a short pier!!
W.

What's the beef? A little truth and sanity hurts?


You bring neither. :roll:



And you do? With your seemingly love of lock downs and other tyrannical measures. Drinking the Kool Aid, as they say?
Like previously said read the first post.


I listen to experts when I know nothing about the subject. All the experts state to do the opposite of what you suggest.

Let me know your qualifications of combatting global pandemics are once again?

You can state your opinion all you want though, I won't stop you, it is still worthless though.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:01 pm

Image
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby Formidable 1 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:41 am

noclevername wrote:Image


Being that's a liberal, hootenanny enclave, that behavior isn't surprising.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:54 am

billybob72 wrote:Your agenda is to protect big business, well, let me tell you a truth Mr Big Business - you need people, living people - to spend money on the products of big business. It's no good when the customer base is dead.


Ok that explains a lot where you are coming from. Big business bad. Government good. Government always knows what is best. By the way....who hires your experts, hmm? Who funds their studies? Who funds their institutions? You gotta follow the money, to quote Deep Throat.
Another thing, people need big business or there will be no jobs after cowering in place.
Enjoy cowering in your home while you can, it ain't gonna last. Sooner or later the government will lose have to their tyrannical hold and you are going to have to face that terrible cootie ridden world. Did you know this is not the only virus in the world? You might want to think of that when the nanny state says you can stop cowering at home.

There is a movement in the US to throw off the chains of tyranny. There was once another tyrant, King George III, that attempted to dictate to the free people of America. We all know how that went.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:27 pm

I've seen several of these stories over the last weeks; here's yet another one about a needless victim who was removed from the gene pool by his own actions or inactions. At least John W. McDaniel doesn't have to deal with what he believed to be "The Madness" anymore, even if the only thing that's stopped for him personally is "Living our Lives."

I wouldn't be surprised if these deniers wind up collectively winning the Darwin Award for 2020.

Image

https://crooksandliars.com/2020/04/man- ... down-order

Image
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:20 pm

News flash, people die from the virus everyday but not because they do not follow the mandates. Most of my whole family and friends back in the US flaunt the mandates, are they dead? Any one of them? Nope. Even sick? Nope. Should I post Farcebook pages of them living life, freely?
Why do you take joy in a mans death and hope others like him die too?
Take a look at theses 2 posts.
Do they look dead? Even look sick?
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31907&p=159540#p159531
Or the people driving these cars. Are they dead? I am sure most have been 'flaunting' long before March 15th.
So what is your point?
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby gerard » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:22 pm

I think "the point" is explained quite well here:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2238473-you-could-be-spreading-the-coronavirus-without-realising-youve-got-it/

Research published last week by Jeffrey Shaman of Columbia University in New York and his colleagues analysed the course of the epidemic in 375 Chinese cities between 10 January, when the epidemic took off, and 23 January, when containment measures such as travel restrictions were imposed.

The study concluded that 86 per cent of cases were “undocumented” – that is, asymptomatic or had only very mild symptoms (Science, doi.org/ggn6c2). The researchers also analysed case data from foreign nationals who were evacuated from the city of Wuhan, where the first cases were seen, and found a similar proportion of asymptomatic or very mild cases.

Such undocumented cases are still contagious and the study found them to be the source of most of the virus’s spread in China before the restrictions came in. Even though these people were only 55 per cent as contagious as people with symptoms, the study found that they were the source of 79 per cent of further infections, due to there being more of them, and the higher likelihood that they were out and about.

“If somebody’s experiencing mild symptoms, and I think most of us can relate to this, we’re still going to go about our day,” says Shaman. “These people are the major driver of it and they’re the ones who facilitated the spread.

--
Great for your family and friends who flaunt the mandates with no ill effects. Not so great for anyone they might infect, or the health workers who have to take care of them. But hey ho, as long as it is other people's family members dying why should you care?
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:02 pm

Oh!! so now it is voodoo science. There are people wandering around that do not know, or anyone knows for that matter, that they have it and killing people willy nilly? How do you or anyone know they have it or not. Funny how people just love the Kool Aid. Anything that backs up their chicken little beliefs.
Government backed studies will always back the governments that funds them.
Get real, Jeez. You are really reaching. What ever happened to cold hard facts? This virus is no more, maybe less, deadly than any other virus and certainly does not merit the scare tactics and draconian measures.
The magazine you quoted seems to be more of the tabloid nature. You might want to find a more reputable source.
The people in these photos, are not my friends of family it is more wide spread than my friends and family. How many of your friends and family have died? I am betting ZERO. How many of your friends or family lost their job, not have one to go back to? That is what I am talking about here.
We can't control global warming, we can't control the ozone layer nor can we control who gets a viruses, there are thousands right now as we speak even more deadly. Get over it.
Enjoy you lock down.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31907&p=159540#p159531
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby gerard » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:38 pm

New Scientist is actually pretty well regarded for what it does, which is present science is a format suitable for the general public. But as that's not to your liking we can always reference the original source:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/24/science.abb3221

Is Science acceptable? Wikipedia describes it as:

Science, also widely referred to as Science Magazine, is the peer-reviewed academic journal of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) and one of the world's top academic journals.
--

This is peer reviewed before publication and the data is openly available. As opposed to "Most of my whole family and friends back in the US flaunt the mandates, are they dead? Any one of them? Nope. Even sick? Nope.", which is not actual science. That's voodoo science.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby 69roadrunner » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:49 pm

Yeah I especially like the Jokes section.

Sooo..... you are saying it is not voodoo science and hundreds of people, never proven, are wandering around spreading a virus killing people?
Get real. Where is the proof of these mythical people wandering around killing people?
By the way, you skirted my question. How many of your family or friends are sick or died from the virus? How many are not working, lost their job, no job to go back to? That is the real issue. Those numbers will far out weigh any deaths. Which are very very few.
Put the Kool Aid down. But then again, you live in a socialist country so it is hard not to tow the socialist line. I understand.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:41 pm

69roadrunner wrote:Ok that explains a lot where you are coming from. Big business bad. Government good. Government always knows what is best.


No, no-one is bad or good - it is just that the profit margains of big business are not paramount in this moment in time. They seem to be for you but I think the health of the populations that keep big businesses afloat should be paramount.


By the way....who hires your experts, hmm? Who funds their studies? Who funds their institutions?


The consumer - no consumer, no big business.

Another thing, people need big business or there will be no jobs after cowering in place.


Nooooooooooooooo - you have that the wrong way round you silly goose - it's no people, no big business, how many big businesses go to the wall because they stop being competitive for the dollar/sol/pound/euro etc of the consumer? Lots do - Westinghouse. Pan-Am etc etc

Big business needs fit, healthy people to buy their stuff.

Enjoy cowering in your home while you can, it ain't gonna last.


Sorry big brave chief - are you going out challenging the PNP and their lockdown :lol: No, I didn't think so...

Sooner or later the government will lose have to their tyrannical hold and you are going to have to face that terrible cootie ridden world. Did you know this is not the only virus in the world? You might want to think of that when the nanny state says you can stop cowering at home.


I did two months lockdown in a Chinese winter, it would have made you cry for sure - you're losing it now doing a couple of weeks of a Peruvian lockdown. Just keep going, it will all be over soon!

There is a movement in the US to throw off the chains of tyranny. There was once another tyrant, King George III, that attempted to dictate to the free people of America. We all know how that went.


You're not IN America though are you - you're in Peru! For some reason you left the world's greatest country and went to a country with a completely different culture and ways of doing things - and now you're crying and losing it because those nasty Peruvians are telling you to stay in the house (for your own good...) and you can't handle it!

That's the truth - when it is all over - you can go and live somewhere where there are no lockdowns! Belarus sounds great!
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby gerard » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:53 pm

Alas, you evidently understand very little, as you seem keen to prove over and over again.

I don't think anyone here has actually said they want the lock-down, and I'm sure we'll all be glad when it is over. But fortunately most people understand and accept the reasons for it rather than blindly ignoring all of the evidence that says without it things would be way worse.

And my personal stats to date are 5 fairly mild, 2 hospitalised but not serious and 1 UCI who had to be resuscitated once but fortunately seems to recovering now. I know no one who has lost their job, but then again I know relatively few people outside my family here. I don't however deny that there are 10s of thousands of people who are out of work and struggling, because the data says there are even though I personally don't know them.

First time anyone has accused me of being a socialist though. Not sure what country you think I live in.

And by the way, Obama was born in Hawaii and we have been to the Moon.
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:05 pm

69roadrunner wrote:News flash, people die from the virus everyday but not because they do not follow the mandates. Most of my whole family and friends back in the US flaunt the mandates, are they dead? Any one of them? Nope. Even sick? Nope. Should I post Farcebook pages of them living life, freely?
Why do you take joy in a mans death and hope others like him die too?
Take a look at theses 2 posts.
Do they look dead? Even look sick?
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31907&p=159540#p159531
Or the people driving these cars. Are they dead? I am sure most have been 'flaunting' long before March 15th.
So what is your point?

I take no joy in this mans death. I never said or suggested that I hope others like him die too. You can't rationally address what is actually being posted so instead are creating straw man arguments that put words in people's mouths that they never said. That said, I really have no sympathy for him either. Nor do I for someone who gets their head bit off sticking it in a lion's mouth after a bunch of respected big cat experts tell him that it's not a good idea. He didn't die a brave and noble death rescuing a stranger from a burning building. He put others lives at risk and needlessly increased the burden on the health care system. Likely passed on the virus to some of his family and friends as well. Don't confuse my pointing out his death, and the negative effects his actions have on society at large to be joy. I wish he'd stayed inside and lived.

Not everyone who plays Russian roulette dies from a self inflected gun wound to the head. But some do. I guess one of my points would be why play Russian Roulette if you don't have to? To protest a tyranical govt. that makes playing Russian Roulette illegal? Why increase your odds of contracting a pandemic virus that, if contracted, you will spread to at least some of your loved ones? Why increase your odds of speeding up your own death, or the death of your loved ones? Why act in such a way that overwhelms the health care system and puts other people at risk because of decreased hospital capacity? Why completely disregard the suggestions of the non-political and international global pandemic experts, and medical and scientific communities? Why act in such a way that is likely to prolong any lockdown by behaving in a way that will increase the number of cases?

Looking at your 2 posts would prove nothing. As Gerard posted, and as numerous reliable sources show, people can and do contract this virus before ever showing symptoms. Posts of healthy looking people prove nothing, as they may in fact have and be spreading the virus without currently showing symptoms. I'm sure like many of the other deniers who contracted the virus, John W. McDaniel looked perfectly healthy in his social media post - until he didn't. Maybe a better idea would be for you to contact his friends and family and offer to show them your 2 posts. I'm sure in between thougts of worrying if they themselves contracted the virus from now dead John they'd really appreciate knowing that people you know who've been walking around look healthy. Then again, maybe they'd think John didn't die young and in vain for his "cause" - which is?

Would you change your opinion if over the course of this pandemic people you know and love who are currently healthy, or who you believe to be healthy today become sick and die because of this? Or would you be fine, because even if they died at a relatively young age, at least they died for .... I don't know. I can't think of anything that they really would've died for. It'll be a shame when the rest of us gradually go back to living life to some degree of what it used to be like and the stubborn deniers will be dead at a proportionally greater rate because they thought their defiance of the law, denial of the facts, and disregard for what medical experts, scientists, and experts in global pandemics are suggesting they do as well as complete lack of common sense would somehow (without any scientific proof) give them immunity against contracting this virus.

And again, you're fond of speaking about cold hard numbers and science but I've yet to read a post of yours that actually references any reliable source that backs up what you say with cold hard numbers or science. Not one. Instead you get all paranoid, defensive and conspiracy theory minded whenever anyone does back up their posts with links to reliable, non-governmental, independent sources. You're looking about as intelligent as all the deniers who wind up catching coronavirus because they refuse to listen to the advice of experts who know far more than them. I will give credit to guys like John W. McDaniel for one thing, even though they put needless lives at risk and strain the health care system. Guys like John have the courage to stand up for what they believe in. What are you doing other than whining like a snowflake from the safety of being behind your keyboard? What are you doing to stand up to what you believe to be tyrany? Are you going out after curfew? Not wearing a mask when you do go out, or refuse to practice social distancing? Organizing or participating in public protests? You say you've got a nice pension, so the relatively small fines can't be a deterrent. Are you not willing to risk your life or something less precious, like getting in trouble with the tyranical cops, to stand up to tyrany? Or are you just a little yapper dog that you can fit in your handbag who barkbarkbarks about things, but never bites? Even if you're not courageous enough to stand up and do something like the protestors against lockdowns, once the travel restrictions are lifted it won't take a lot of courage for a guy with a nice pension to leave a tyranical country behind for a better one.

And to answer another question of yours. A friend of my wife lost his cousin to this virus. He was young and healthy - until he wasn't. His family is stressed, wondering if they contracted the virus from him. We also know a few people with currently mild cases and someone else hospitalized. Since the case and death numbers have been increasing exponentially (unlike car accident victims) and since many experts are predicting multiple waves until global distribution of a vaccine, the numbers of people we all know directly or idirectly effected by this virus will continue to increase to the point where it will be less common to not know anyone effected.

I don't know of anyone personally who's lost their job, though I'm not denying that people are losing their jobs because of this virus. It'd be stupid of me to deny something that is so easily proven. I don't reject objective facts simply because I don't like them or if they don't fit into my wider worldview. Gimme some truth over denial or fake news. I'm glad some live in countries that already have systems in place to take care of their citizens because they actually care about their people, though I'm aware many are not so fortunate, and some even live in states like Florida where the former governor made changes to the system to make it harder for people to receive unemployment compensation so he could boast about how low unemployment numbers were in his state. An interesting aside is that many of those who are losing their jobs are also losing their healthcare in the process and during a global pandemic. Kind of makes a good argument for not tying health care to one's employment and instead having a national health system so that even if you lose your job, you won't lose your access to health care.
noclevername
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby noclevername » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:08 pm

It's kind of ironic for people to die from something that they say doesn't exist, is a hoax, is blown out of proportion, there's no danger in breaking these stay at home orders, etc.. I really find it odd that some of these same people with signs saying things like "STOP THE HOAX" are often photographed wearing masks when they protest. If coronavirus is what they say it is, or more accurately, what they say it isn't, then why are they even wearing masks at all? Kind of hypocritical, or just plain wishy-washy, of them to protect themselves with masks and gloves from a something that's only a hoax. They obviously know there's a danger and they're voluntarily putting their lives and the lives of their family at risk as well as anyone else they may come in contact with. Too bad there's not a way to get protestors to sign something saying that if they contract the coronavirus they would not burden the health care system because of their willing reckless actions and instead would be left to fend for themselves, rugged individuals that they are, and deal with the virus at home. Like an insuarance policy that doesn't pay off in the case of someone acting dangerously and recklessly.

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billybob72
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby billybob72 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:33 pm

noclevername wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:News flash, people die from the virus everyday but not because they do not follow the mandates. Most of my whole family and friends back in the US flaunt the mandates, are they dead? Any one of them? Nope. Even sick? Nope. Should I post Farcebook pages of them living life, freely?
Why do you take joy in a mans death and hope others like him die too?
Take a look at theses 2 posts.
Do they look dead? Even look sick?
http://www.expatperu.com/expatforums/vi ... 40#p159531
Or the people driving these cars. Are they dead? I am sure most have been 'flaunting' long before March 15th.
So what is your point?

I take no joy in this mans death. I never said or suggested that I hope others like him die too. You can't rationally address what is actually being posted so instead are creating straw man arguments that put words in people's mouths that they never said. That said, I really have no sympathy for him either. Nor do I for someone who gets their head bit off sticking it in a lion's mouth after a bunch of respected big cat experts tell him that it's not a good idea. He didn't die a brave and noble death rescuing a stranger from a burning building. He put others lives at risk and needlessly increased the burden on the health care system. Likely passed on the virus to some of his family and friends as well. Don't confuse my pointing out his death, and the negative effects his actions have on society at large to be joy. I wish he'd stayed inside and lived.

Not everyone who plays Russian roulette dies from a self inflected gun wound to the head. But some do. I guess one of my points would be why play Russian Roulette if you don't have to? To protest a tyranical govt. that makes playing Russian Roulette illegal? Why increase your odds of contracting a pandemic virus that, if contracted, you will spread to at least some of your loved ones? Why increase your odds of speeding up your own death, or the death of your loved ones? Why act in such a way that overwhelms the health care system and puts other people at risk because of decreased hospital capacity? Why completely disregard the suggestions of the non-political and international global pandemic experts, and medical and scientific communities? Why act in such a way that is likely to prolong any lockdown by behaving in a way that will increase the number of cases?

Looking at your 2 posts would prove nothing. As Gerard posted, and as numerous reliable sources show, people can and do contract this virus before ever showing symptoms. Posts of healthy looking people prove nothing, as they may in fact have and be spreading the virus without currently showing symptoms. I'm sure like many of the other deniers who contracted the virus, John W. McDaniel looked perfectly healthy in his social media post - until he didn't. Maybe a better idea would be for you to contact his friends and family and offer to show them your 2 posts. I'm sure in between thougts of worrying if they themselves contracted the virus from now dead John they'd really appreciate knowing that people you know who've been walking around look healthy. Then again, maybe they'd think John didn't die young and in vain for his "cause" - which is?

Would you change your opinion if over the course of this pandemic people you know and love who are currently healthy, or who you believe to be healthy today become sick and die because of this? Or would you be fine, because even if they died at a relatively young age, at least they died for .... I don't know. I can't think of anything that they really would've died for. It'll be a shame when the rest of us gradually go back to living life to some degree of what it used to be like and the stubborn deniers will be dead at a proportionally greater rate because they thought their defiance of the law, denial of the facts, and disregard for what medical experts, scientists, and experts in global pandemics are suggesting they do as well as complete lack of common sense would somehow (without any scientific proof) give them immunity against contracting this virus.

And again, you're fond of speaking about cold hard numbers and science but I've yet to read a post of yours that actually references any reliable source that backs up what you say with cold hard numbers or science. Not one. Instead you get all paranoid, defensive and conspiracy theory minded whenever anyone does back up their posts with links to reliable, non-governmental, independent sources. You're looking about as intelligent as all the deniers who wind up catching coronavirus because they refuse to listen to the advice of experts who know far more than them. I will give credit to guys like John W. McDaniel for one thing, even though they put needless lives at risk and strain the health care system. Guys like John have the courage to stand up for what they believe in. What are you doing other than whining like a snowflake from the safety of being behind your keyboard? What are you doing to stand up to what you believe to be tyrany? Are you going out after curfew? Not wearing a mask when you do go out, or refuse to practice social distancing? Organizing or participating in public protests? You say you've got a nice pension, so the relatively small fines can't be a deterrent. Are you not willing to risk your life or something less precious, like getting in trouble with the tyranical cops, to stand up to tyrany? Or are you just a little yapper dog that you can fit in your handbag who barkbarkbarks about things, but never bites? Even if you're not courageous enough to stand up and do something like the protestors against lockdowns, once the travel restrictions are lifted it won't take a lot of courage for a guy with a nice pension to leave a tyranical country behind for a better one.

And to answer another question of yours. A friend of my wife lost his cousin to this virus. He was young and healthy - until he wasn't. His family is stressed, wondering if they contracted the virus from him. We also know a few people with currently mild cases and someone else hospitalized. Since the case and death numbers have been increasing exponentially (unlike car accident victims) and since many experts are predicting multiple waves until global distribution of a vaccine, the numbers of people we all know directly or idirectly effected by this virus will continue to increase to the point where it will be less common to not know anyone effected.

I don't know of anyone personally who's lost their job, though I'm not denying that people are losing their jobs because of this virus. It'd be stupid of me to deny something that is so easily proven. I don't reject objective facts simply because I don't like them or if they don't fit into my wider worldview. Gimme some truth over denial or fake news. I'm glad some live in countries that already have systems in place to take care of their citizens because they actually care about their people, though I'm aware many are not so fortunate, and some even live in states like Florida where the former governor made changes to the system to make it harder for people to receive unemployment compensation so he could boast about how low unemployment numbers were in his state. An interesting aside is that many of those who are losing their jobs are also losing their healthcare in the process and during a global pandemic. Kind of makes a good argument for not tying health care to one's employment and instead having a national health system so that even if you lose your job, you won't lose your access to health care.


Great post!
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gerard
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Re: Where's The Beef?

Postby gerard » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:59 pm

If we consider an example from Peru from last week, of 1200 people who wanted to return to Huancavelica 47 tested positive for Covid-19.

Let's suppose the government had just allowed all of these people to head over to Huancavelica without testing them. With an R0 value of ~2.5, we'd expect those 47 to infect a further 117 people, meaning an extra 164 are now in Huancavelica with Covid-19.

Maybe the local authorities would be on top of things and isolate everyone quickly. Current testing seems to suggest about 10% of positive cases require hospitalisation, so say 16 of the new group.

About 25% appear to require ICU beds, so that's 4 of our 16. I don't know how many ICU beds there are in Huancavelica, and from today's conference it seems neither do they. But let's be optimistic and assume they have at least 4.

Now suppose the local authorities were not too worried; perhaps they're more concerned about the local economy, and take a few days to react. An additional 2 infection cycles means our 117 carriers infect 292 more people, who in turn infect 731 people. We now have 47 + 117 + 292 + 731 = 1187 positives, of which 118 require hospitalisation and 29 require ICU beds. Most of the nearby regions had 6-8 ICU beds for Covid-19, so around 21 people are now untreatable.

Run that for another couple of cycles and you're at 4500 positives with 100+ needing ICU beds that don't exist. This is how fast things can get out of control. Sure, these are just made up estimates, but 24,000 dead in Italy, 20,000 in Spain, 42,000 in the USA show how real this problem is.

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