Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

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Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby Formidable 1 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:10 am

"Despite imposing some of the most stringent quarantine measures in Latin America since mid-March, Peru reported 16,325 coronavirus cases and 400 deaths on Monday, a figure which placed it second only to Brazil in the number of infections in the region. Brazil has a population seven times larger than Peru."

Speaks volumes don't you think?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/peru-riot-po ... 39506.html


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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby 69roadrunner » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:33 pm

And the people shall rise up and throw off the chains of tyranny. Thumb up Peru
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby Alan » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:09 pm

Formidable 1 wrote:"Despite imposing some of the most stringent quarantine measures in Latin America since mid-March, Peru reported 16,325 coronavirus cases and 400 deaths on Monday, a figure which placed it second only to Brazil in the number of infections in the region. Brazil has a population seven times larger than Peru."

Speaks volumes don't you think?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/peru-riot-po ... 39506.html


From: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Brazil: 40,814 cases, 2,588 dead, 8,318 critical cases
Peru: 16,325 cases, 445 dead, 385 critical critical cases

While countries can effectively undereport numbers of cases by not testing agressively, it is harder to mask the number of deaths, or critically ill patients in hospital beds.

Tossing these numbers around dehumanizes the massive tragedy that is taking place - and I hate doing it - but in the light of the conversation about "tyranny", it seems pretty relevant.
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby noclevername » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:22 am

69roadrunner wrote:And the people shall rise up and throw off the chains of tyranny. Thumb up Peru

The key difference is that these people aren't protesting their inability to be allowed to leave their homes whenever they want to be able to go out on the streets. Quite the opposite. They're just trying to get OFF the streets of Lima so they can return to the safety of their HOME. There's not a single mention of, or reference to, tyranny in that linked article. Of the news reports I've seen of this from the national media, there hasn't been any mention by these people of tyranny or that they feel Vizcarra or the govt. is tyrannical. According to their own words, they just want to go home. They want to shelter in place, but a place that's secure, familiar and theirs. Makes sense. I wish them success, but I don't group them with the people that leave the house after curfew because they want to drink with their buddies or the protesters in other countries who are indeed protesting what they believe to be tyranny because that's exactly what they and their signs are saying.

I feel for them, though I wonder why when the announcement was made before the quédate en casa order went into effect that all international and inter-province travel would be suspended they didn't take the opportunity to leave Lima then, like the tourists who made a beeline for the airport or land borders so they could leave the country, or some people I know who were out of their province but left early so they could return home before the order went into effect. Maybe they thought the original 15 day period would be just that and not extended, but with such an up in the air situation and not putting it past govt. to extend such an order (even if it's with good reason) a lot of people didn't chance it and went home for fear of being stuck for an indefinite period of time in someplace they didn't want to be.
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby Alan » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:49 am

These human caravans are super tragic. I read this morning that they hope to make 25 km a day... which isn't much, but if you are weak, hauling small pieces of luggage and children, that's probably all you can do.

Now, Lima to Huancavelica is 425 KM... so, 17 days walk.. hungry, sick.. and through some really cold terrain. It seems like an unreasonable goal. Maybe they hope that the govt. will agree to transport them... but for the govt. accede to that would create a moral hazzard; they can't drive everybody, after all - ven if the regions would accept them, which they don't appear willing to do.

Maybe getting people out of Lima is a good strategy.. dunno.. it would have to be analyzed. On first blush it seems to fly in the face of the idea of a quarantine.. but hunger and social instability is the other threat.

If they do decide to support the exodus, they could consider the train that runs Lima to Huancayo, and then the tren macho to Huancavelica. Seems more reasonable than busses.
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby 69roadrunner » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:01 pm

Reminds me of a song from the '60s during many protests. Racism and forced servitude into the armed forces protests and others.
For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield

There's something happening here
But what it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man come and take you away

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp5JCrSXkJY
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby noclevername » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:08 pm

69roadrunner wrote:
noclevername wrote:
69roadrunner wrote:And the people shall rise up and throw off the chains of tyranny. Thumb up Peru

The key difference is that these people aren't protesting their inability to be allowed to leave their homes whenever they want to be able to go out on the streets. Quite the opposite. They're just trying to get OFF the streets of Lima so they can return to the safety of their HOME.



Well what do you call not being allowed to return safely to your home. Human kindness? Most would call it tyranny.

I don't think it matters what I'd call it. The people directly involved aren't calling it tyranny. But since you ask, I would call it unfortunate for two reasons. The obvious one that they are in the situation they are in, and the second because they didn't take heed of the advance warning given by the government that travel was going to be restricted. Tyranny doesn't concern itself with the niceities of giving advanced warnings to citizens and visitors that they should get home or to where they want to be before an upcoming nationwide quarantine goes into effect. Tyranny would have just intiatiated a lockdown without any advance warning and wouldn't care if people made it back home or out of the country.

I hope those people make it home. I'd like to see the government do something to help make that possible, but as Alan mentioned, making an exception to their quarantine rules would create a moral hazzard. The proverbial slippery slope. It's not a situation with an easy solution that could please everyone and as mentioned, needs analysis of the consequences. Transport by train does seem to make more sense than buses.

I wish they had not put themselves in their predicament in the first place and had just returned home while they had the opportunity before the shelter at home order went into effect, like many other Peruanas and foreigners who were outside of their country or province. But they rolled the dice by staying in Lima after receiving notice (as did the whole country) that travel was going to be restricted and they took their chances that the 15-day shelter at home order wouldn't be extended. Are you favoring a more so called liberal "nanny state" solution where the government takes care of problems over people taking personal responsibility for their own actions? The nanny state solution over rugged individualism? I'm not disparaging these people since they do appear to be pretty rugged and willing to take matters into their own hands, but I am noting that since they ignored the warning to get home before the shelter at home order started and that the majority of Peruanas and foreigners followed, they are at the very least, partly responsible for their current situation.

Human kindness is not being kind to yourself or thinking only about yourself and how this situation inconveniences the individual person. I would consider human kindness in this situation to be the willingness to make personal sacrifices during this globabl pandemic. To be concerned with and to look out for the health of fellow citizens and society (or humanity, since you used the phrase "human kindness") by heeding the suggestions of the medical and scientific experts to stay at home for now to best protect our health and the health of fellow humans; the orders of the government to stay at home for now so as not to increase the risk of overwhelming the already fragile health care system that provides human kindness; and the pleas of the health care workers who are risking their lives to care for coronavirus patients (some of whom I'm sure are sick because they ignored the advice of the experts) with limited and dwindling (again, partly due to people who would be healthy if they had followed expert advice) intensive care unit beds, medical personel who also need to treat non-coronavirus patients, and personal protective equipment so they can give themselves, their families, and other patients, a much better chance of not contracting and spreading this virus. That's my idea of human kindness. Your's may differ. I'm fine with that.
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby noclevername » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:14 pm

69roadrunner wrote:Reminds me of a song from the '60s during many protests. Racism and forced servitude into the armed forces protests and others.
For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield

There's something happening here
But what it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man come and take you away

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp5JCrSXkJY

Great choice. This song perfectly describes what I'm seeing.

There's something happening here

Some recent photos of people protesting because they don't like having to shelter in place during a highly contagious gloabal pandemic in order to protect their own health, the health of their fellow man, and to help not overwhelm the under-prepared, staffed, and equiped health care system - a.k.a. 'human kindness.' They don't really look like they're very concerned about being kind to their fellow humans.

Image

Image

There's a man with a gun over there

Several men, actually. This guy in the large photo below even has his finger on the trigger. As a former gun owner I know the National Rifle Association safety rule to "ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot." Who, pray tell, is he ready to shoot? The person who's taking his picture? And why are those guys behind him wearing masks if they have no concern for catching or spreading the virus (which they may think is a hoax or nothing worse than that the common flu). Or even if they did have concern, why wear a mask if they feel the need to shelter at home has passed and it's safe enough for everyone to return to "normal?"

Image

Telling me I got to beware

A lot of people holding signs telling me I got to beware.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid


They look pretty paraoid and afraid to me, considering they're armed with assault rifles even though they're surrounded only by like minded people, with minimal presence of police and other public servants. Who are they afraid of that they feel they might need to use their firearms to protect themselves while protesting? Just about everyone else is at home trying to avoid contracting a highly contagious virus. You don't see Occupy Wall St., environmental, or LGBT rights protestors feeling so paranoid and afraid that they need to bring guns to their protests for self protection.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid

Indeed it does.

I would consider seeing tyranny where most instead see concern for the health of citizens and their fellow man to be an example of paranoia.

I would consider worrying about non-existant, or hyperbolic "tyranny" as being afraid.

Fortunately, I don't feel paranoid or afraid. My instincts and common sense tell me to take this situation seriously and act cautiously in this time of a highly contagious global pandemic with a death rate that has increased exponentially from zero to hundreds of thousands in less than 10 weeks and with no end currently in sight. But I'm neither paranoid or afraid. I'm trying to stay optimistic that a vaccine will be produced in 12-18 months, though many expect with production times factored in, it will take longer to be available on a global scale.

As Robert Schuller once said, "Tough times don't last, but tough people do." Time to deal with the current situation by toughening up, not whine about a tough situation.
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby 69roadrunner » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:56 pm

Yeah paranoid what America had built up for the last 3 years will be lost. Most of it has gone by the way. Paranoid the Man will use weapons against him for not cowering in place. So best to be armed, dang straight he is paranoid.
Do you have any idea how many people recover after getting the cooties? 98%!!!!!!
22 million out of work in the US. A mere 1,537,457 are even infected. Is it really worth it to destroy the worlds leading economy?
Are you in the US? Is this an expat America forum? I respond to your posts because they are so ridiculous, my bad, but can we get back to Peru, where we both live or are you back in Long Island?
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby Alan » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:01 pm

What gets me about these demonstrators in the USA is their hypocricy, because they are advocating for actions in which the result will be IMPOSED on health workers (among many, many others)

It's true; if the pandemic is only moderately bad, killing, say, 1 in 1000, many of us will not be effected personally... but our health care workers will. What they will end up dealing with is totally out of proportion to what the rest of us will see, and it's not going to be pretty -- and they will be doing it at great personal risk.

I wonder if the protestors stop and think about that, if they stop to think at all. These bozos are expressing their own freedoms at the cost of the lives and health of others. That attitude is way more tyrannical than the politicians who try to limit social interaction during a unpredictable pandemic.

As I was finishing this post, I just learned that there are no longer any hospital beds in Lima, so we are heading into the worst of it.

Stay safe people. Stay inside if you can.
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby noclevername » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:44 pm

69roadrunner wrote:Yeah paranoid what America had built up for the last 3 years will be lost. Most of it has gone by the way. Paranoid the Man will use weapons against him for not cowering in place. So best to be armed, dang straight he is paranoid.
Do you have any idea how many people recover after getting the cooties? 98%!!!!!!
22 million out of work in the US. A mere 1,537,457 are even infected. Is it really worth it to destroy the worlds leading economy?
Are you in the US? Is this an expat America forum? I respond to your posts because they are so ridiculous, my bad, but can we get back to Peru, where we both live or are you back in Long Island?

Wow! I wasn't talking about you when I put those oh so relevant to the times images to the Buffalo Springfield lyrics you posted (great band, btw, I'm a big NY fan) that mirrors the paranoia I see in the photos of protestors walking around with assault rifles when their lives are obviously not in any danger other than contracting coronavirus for not practicing social distancing or wearing masks. I doubt you're the type that would actually take to the street with a gun, or even a sign, or do anything at all other than post here about what you think is tyranny, but geez..... I didn't realise it would trigger you so.

Remember a few short weeks ago when that 1,537,457 number was zero, or less than a hundred. Blew up fast, no? No one can say for sure how much greater it will be, since it increases exponentially, but care to take a guess at what it will be in a few short weeks more when that number (like all the #'s you've previously posted) will seem small in comparison? What if there's an even deadlier second wave, as some experts are now predicting? You should research the pandemic of 1918 that lasted until 1920. That one had waves where the death rates were greter than the initial outbreak.

Getting back to Peru (even though the description of 'Expat Conversations' says - "A place for ON or OFF topic conversations" so, no reason to whine or get bent out of shape about it), a friend of mine told me that during M-F of last week people stuck in Lima were allowed to return to their provinces because the govt. temporarily lifted the shelter at home order for them. Provinces sent buses to pick up their people. Doesn't sound very tyranical at all. Another friend of mine told me earlier that though the shelter at home order has been extended again :cry: , certain sectors of the economy are allowed to go back to work :D ! Loosening their grip on society - not really the acts of a tryrant. Though I guess it depends on one's definition of "tyranny."

The rest of your post.... uh...... I can't even parse.

Image

I'd say it sounds like a paranoid rant, but maybe you're just upset because those lyrics you posted fit so well with what's going on with some of the protestors who feel the same as you? Maybe you're upset because no matter all the talk of coronavirus being a hoax, nothing worse than the common flu, false equivalence comparisons to car accident death rates, etc., the worsening reality is all proving otherwise. Realizing that the numbers are growing and that the problem is very real and every day it becomes clearer that none of what you post about this fits reality, you have to try to shift the conversation since those old claims obviously don't hold water anymore - not that they ever did? Maybe you just don't like it when people here challenge what you say? We're all just talking here. No need to go off the rails over difference of opinion. I'll give you the benefit of the dout and figure (whether it's the actual case or not) that you're just being sarcastic by intentionally posting in a way that makes you sound, well, paranoid. If so, satire! Brilliant!

Here's another article pointing out the seriousness of this issue. It's being reported that medical personel here are having to use the same three masks for an entire month. COVIDIOTS who disregard the advice of the experts are making the situation worse by making themselves patients though their actions, and making hospital staff have to use more of their limited personal protection equipment to deal with them. I bet those medical personel who are putting their own personal health and the health of their families at risk, and who I see you are putting down elsewhere on the forum, don't look at those actions as acts of "human kindness."

Fortunately, these are kinds of protestors and protest signs we see here in Peru. They don't look paranoid, but being underequiped on the front lines of this they have every reason to be afraid for themselves and their families. You may scorn them, but they have my support.

Image

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/per ... t-n1189511
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Re: Peru: riot police block highway as people attempt to flee amid lockdown

Postby noclevername » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:58 pm

I referred above to the 1918 pandemic and how the deaths came in waves. Here's a graph to put that in a visual context. Obviously, the autumn months that followed the first wave were not good. Hopefully it's not a repeat with COVID-19

Image

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