Discrimination against seniors

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woodchuck
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Discrimination against seniors

Postby woodchuck » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:30 pm

My wife & I went to Plaza Vea in Huaral today to pick up a small order.
I was not allowed to enter because I am over 60 (had to show ID).
Is this a policy at this particular supermarket or store-wide in all of Peru?
Anyone have any similar situations?
Thanks & stay safe.


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Alan
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby Alan » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:42 pm

Great question.

I can tell you that there has been legislation passed to keep 60+ out of the workplace until the end of the year.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby gerard » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:29 pm

woodchuck wrote:My wife & I went to Plaza Vea in Huaral today to pick up a small order.


Then you were breaking the current emergency laws in force and were lucky not to be arrested and fined. This has been widely reported and the President is on TV almost daily repeating it, so no excuse to not be aware of it.

https://rpp.pe/politica/estado/coronavi ... ia-1258303

Point 9 translates as: Go out more than one person per family, for the purchase of food or pharmaceutical products.

As someone over 60 and therefore in a higher risk category for infection maybe you should be thanking Plaza Vea for being concerned about your health. The number of Covid-19 cases almost doubled in the last 8 days compared to the first 48 as far too many people seem to think the isolation laws apply to other people, not them.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:53 am

Yep, gerard, those are some really nice fellas I hope woodchuck gave them a nice thank you.
"Yer over 60, you MIGHT get sick. Now go home and starve to death". Really thoughtful folks.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby gerard » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:38 am

Or "you wait outside while your wife gets your delivery". But why let those facts you're always so keen on get in the way of hyperbole.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:41 am

Or maybe not all over 60 have a wife. But why let those facts you're always so keen on get in the way of hyperbole.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby Wiracocha » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:06 am

To answer Woodchuck's original question...I have had no such experience at Plaza Vea in Los Olivos. I have never seen either the police, nor security people, checking DNI's/CE's of anyone...Peruvian nor gringos, in all this time. I am 70+ and don't look like a spring chicken...so producing an ID card would'nt be necessary anyway.

Whilst I am aware that older people are more likely to contract the China virus,I have not seen,nor heard, President Martin Vizcarra,nor his minister for health, say on TV that this is a "law" for 60 + aged people. I watch the announcements every day and also the English translations on the internet of the speeches....and have seen nothing to that exact effect.

So, that is my answer Woody. :-)
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby noclevername » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:44 am

Argentina now has a policy that restricts seniors from leaving their house. Younger household members or neighbors do their shopping. Volunteer groups who will go shopping and make purchases have sprung up to assist seniors who are living on their own. Minor inconveniences and obstacles can be overcome by a species that's been able to put a man on the moon and conquer greater inconveniences than not being able to leave the house to buy groceries or medicine when someone else can do it for them. My eldery neighbors, one of whom is immune compromised, are very grateful for my offer to do their shopping when I go out to do my own.

That said, I'm not going to argue with a senior who's lived a full life and doesn't want to be stuck in the house for the remainder of their years if they want to do their own shopping like everyone else is allowed to do with restrictions. With current social distancing and things shut down there's nowhere for a senior to go but the market/pharmacy and then return home. As long as people aren't putting other people at risk by congretating in public and are taking other precautions (masks to prevent spread if they're infected) I'm fine if a senior insists on risking their life to run their own errands and then go directly home instead of having a family member, neighbor, or volunteer do it for them. If we're all at risk then they should have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else, even if they happen to be at greater risk than younger people.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby noclevername » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:54 am

Everytime I'm out I see people breaking the 'no more than one person per family may go out' rule, but there's really no excuse for it. It ain't that hard to comply with and though it's nice to go shopping with my wife, we're fine with doing it alone to help minimize the # of people on the street. What's the point of two people going out if one is just going to wait outside? Like almost everyone else, we're in the house together almost 24 hours a day so I look at it as a positve; an opportunity to have some time to myself. In normal times, spouses appreciate time apart from each other. Seems like the perfect way to claim some 'me time' without hurting anyone's feelings.

I don't have a problem with the rule, but since a lot of people seem to be ignoring it, I don't have much of a problem with that either. It's a good idea and minimizes the number of people out and about who are potentially either going to contract or spread the virus, but it doesn't really make me feel that I'm in more of any significant amount of danger or anything but a tiny bit safer. People are going to do what they do. Actions have consequences. Things aren't perfect and tradeoffs are a part of life.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby woodchuck » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:01 pm

I know what the Peruvian law is regarding more than 1 person doing shopping.
I was with my wife as I had to pick up a prescription; the pharmacy is next to Plaza Vea.
I have to be present & show my ID to get the brand-name prescription at a reduced price.
I figured I would accompany her in Plaza Vea; don't have me arrested.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby noclevername » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:20 pm

During a pandemic everyone's a moral relativist. In Peru and a lot of other places people follow the rules they want and ignore the ones they don't like. Things are so divided because there's no common acceptance of what constitutes a good and bad rule. Some people will complain about the current lockdown but push, or have pushed, for strict obedience of other rules - like immigration/visa policies for example. Others are fine with all or parts of the lockdown rules but find other rules unjust and have no issues with non-compliance.

It’s worth noting the shift in worldviews. During the pandemic, conservatives are much more likely to be relativists—everyone dies of something eventually so let’s keep this disease in perspective—while liberals generally are quicker to assume the absolutist stance—let’s stay shut down for as long as health experts tell us we need to save lives.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... ics-223569

::woodchuck. my wife uses my id number all the time to get my discount at the pharmacy. i use hers at some places to take advantage of her discount. have her give it a try next time. a lot of places don't care who's number it is. tell them the name of your spouse while they're entering the number into the register/terminal for confirmation. say your spouse has to stay at home because they're immune compromised. no one's going to argue with that::
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:47 pm

noclevername wrote:::woodchuck. my wife uses my id number all the time to get my discount at the pharmacy. i use hers at some places to take advantage of her discount. have her give it a try next time. a lot of places don't care who's number it is. tell them the name of your spouse while they're entering the number into the register/terminal for confirmation. say your spouse has to stay at home because they're immune compromised. no one's going to argue with that::


So you suggesting that Woodchuck not only break one law, according to gerald but break another by using a phony ID. Great suggestion.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby gerard » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:19 pm

And if there was a law prohibiting the collection of medicines by a 3rd party by showing the recipient's ID you'd maybe have a point. But there isn't, so you don't. My wife often collects medicines for her parents this way, even from pharmacies in hospitals run by the government.

The "one person" isn't my law by the way, it's the law of the country you choose to live in.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:23 pm

A bit touchy are we? No one said it was your law.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby noclevername » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:13 pm

69roadrunner wrote:
noclevername wrote:::woodchuck. my wife uses my id number all the time to get my discount at the pharmacy. i use hers at some places to take advantage of her discount. have her give it a try next time. a lot of places don't care who's number it is. tell them the name of your spouse while they're entering the number into the register/terminal for confirmation. say your spouse has to stay at home because they're immune compromised. no one's going to argue with that::


So you suggesting that Woodchuck not only break one law, according to gerald but break another by using a phony ID. Great suggestion.

I don't see anywhere where I ever suggested that Woodchuck break any laws. Not the first one you are referring to, as pointed out by gerard, and which you're also now confirming is a violation of that actual law (even though for some reason you earlier seemed to criticize gerard for pointing that out) since you're (mistakenly) claiming I suggest he break that law. And since gerard provided a link to the actual law, it's safe to say it actually is a law.

69roadrunner wrote:Yep, gerard, those are some really nice fellas I hope woodchuck gave them a nice thank you.
"Yer over 60, you MIGHT get sick. Now go home and starve to death". Really thoughtful folks.

I also haven't suggested any use of a phony ID by anyone. I'm assuming that both Woodchuck and his wife, like me and my wife, have valid ID's (both government and store issued) that are not phony or counterfeit.

The store knows what's up as soon as they enter the store account ID number into their system. There's no fraud being comitted since it's obvious no one is pretending to be somone they're not. If Maria Woodchuck uses Joe Woodchuck's store account ID number to get a discount while picking up his medication no one is going to think that Maria is trying to fraudulently present herself as Joe. When Maria gives the clerk Joe's store account ID she tells the clerk she's picking up medicine for her husband, Joe, as the clerk enters the account number. The clerk sees Joe's name on the account. Confirmation made.

It's an in-store discount using a store issued card and a store account ID. It has nothing to do with the government. The business only uses the same number for their store account ID, much like how someone's account ID for their cable or cellphone bill might be the same as their social security number. The business sets the policy and chooses what information to use for their customers account IDs. If there was a problem with using the same number that the govt. issues I'm sure a businesses legal department wouldn't allow it. The business has no problem extending the discount to spouses. The government isn't involved. The pharmacy makes a sale, you and your spouse get the discount. Win-Win. No one seems to think there's anything wrong with allowing a business to set up it's own discount and membership policies except for you.

What exact law is being broken by picking up medicine for a family member and using their store discount membership account ID (which happens to be the same as the person's national ID #, though it's not being used for tax, immigration, or other official govt. transactions) to take advantage of their discount? I'm not aware of any such law, the pharmacy never brings up any law, but I'm curious to know if there is an actual law prohibiting this. Is there also a law stating that businesses cannot use government issued ID numbers as a customer's account number? If so, there are a lot of businesses (not customers) breaking that law.

I'm not stating for a fact that the laws you're suggesting don't exist, just that nobody but you seems to believe that they do. I'm open to being proven wrong on that, but I'd have to have more than a suggestion of their existance; an actual reference. A link to an official govt. website stating the so-called law you're talking about so I could see it for myself. Until then I'm not going to worry about giving out so-called suggestions that break laws that can't be cited, or false claims that I suggested breaking laws that actually do exist.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:53 pm

noclevername wrote:
There's no fraud being comitted since it's obvious no one is pretending to be somone they're not.

Obvious to who? Someone you never met in a store? Nope ain't gonna fly. Try again. What do you call presenting an Id that is not you.....hmmmmm? Tell us pray tell.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby noclevername » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:05 pm

69roadrunner wrote:
noclevername wrote:
There's no fraud being comitted since it's obvious no one is pretending to be somone they're not.

Obvious to who? Someone you never met in a store? Nope ain't gonna fly. Try again. What do you call presenting an Id that is not you.....hmmmmm? Tell us pray tell.

Go back and read again. For some unknown reason you attribute things to me I've never said and when challenged you can't back up your false accusations. Feel free to use the quote function to back up those things you've claimed I've suggested.

As far as presenting an ID that isn't you, generally speaking I'd say what you call it depends on the circumstances. Is the person presenting the ID trying to pass themselves off as a different person? That's fraud. Is the person presenting their spouse's ID with no intention of trying to pass themselves off as being their spouse? I don't know if there is a name for that. Certainly not fraud by the dictionary definition of the word. Are you presenting an ID of someone who isn't you to enter another country? Illegal and fraud. Are you presenting your wifes ID (as well as your own if asked) to pick up her dry cleaning from a business that knows you? Not fraud, since there is no "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

I've never suggested anyone present an ID trying to pass themselves off as being another person. In my suggestion no ID is ever presented. A store's discount program account number is given verbally.

If you can't tell the difference between a Maria Woodchuck and Joe Woodchuck that's an entirely different issue.

If a store clerk see's the name Joe Woodchuck on their screen when the person standing before them who gave them the account number is clearly not a male that's not Maria's problem. If Maria says she's there to pick up medicine for her husband named Joe, that name matches the name on the screen after being given the account number, then the store has no problem with the transaction. If they thought Maria wasn't Joe's husband and she was trying to scam a discount on her medication she could present her own ID for confirmation. If the store still has an issue after all of that they can deny Maria the discount and say that Joe needs to come in himself if he wants the discount. Personally, my wife and I have never had a problem with any of this, which means the store itself has never had a problem.

Since, unlike gerald, you're not providing a link to the law you say is being broken by all of this, it's safe for us to assume that there is no law and you made it up.

If you still have a problem understanding all of this, sorry, but I can't help you. I've been crystal clear. If you still want to make clearly false accusations about things I've posted such as saying I've suggested Woodchuck break laws (some of which don't exist) that's your issue. I've pointed out your innacuracies. You haven't posted what exact law you say I suggest is being broken or backed up any other of your accusations. I'm okay with all of that. If you still have problems with what I'm posting to the degree you feel the need to make false accusations and make up imaginary laws that you think are being broken that's an issue for you to deal with.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:20 pm

What??????? That is not a direct quote??????? Maybe you should go back and read what YOU wrote.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby noclevername » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:32 pm

Interesting topic. I tried to make a relevant contribution. Don't want to further particpate in having it go off the rails over a bunch of nonsense.

I'll leave it to Woodchuck, gerald, and anyone else to decide if I suggested anyone take illegal actions or if it's a false accusation. If I did I'd be grateful if they pointed out where I did so and I'll gladly offer apologies.

I'm sure they can notice that you haven't once referenced the exact law you say I suggested be broken and that they can figure out if this uncited law you're talking about actually exists or is something completely made up. Pretty sure we know where gerard stands:

gerard wrote:And if there was a law prohibiting the collection of medicines by a 3rd party by showing the recipient's ID you'd maybe have a point. But there isn't, so you don't. My wife often collects medicines for her parents this way, even from pharmacies in hospitals run by the government.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby Alpineprince » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:07 pm

I am over 60 and go to Wong several times a week. As a senior I do not have to wait on those lines around the block!
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby gerard » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:55 pm

Coming back to the original question, it looks like Minagri published guidelines yesterday regarding the entry of adultos mayores into mercados.

https://www.elperuano.pe/noticia-adulto ... 95143.aspx

"The health guidelines establish twenty obligations for the regional and local authorities -who must coordinate with those responsible for the supply centers- to allow the entry only of people wearing masks, as well as avoiding the entry of vulnerable population (older adults, women pregnant, children, etc)." (via Google Translate)

Quite when one becomes an adulto mayor I don't know, and is a supermercado a mercado or is this aimed only at the general markets. And it's a guideline, not a law. There's enough ambiguity here for some places to be relaxed and others strict. Possibly the actual published 20 guidelines specify things more precisely.

The lack of clarity on some of the pronouncements has certainly been an issue, and something the executive should be getting a grip on. In times of crisis public announcements should be clear and unambiguous from the start so there can be no doubt what is meant. Some of the early announcements regarding the curfew left all sorts of questions about travel for medical needs and emergencies for example, which took a few days (and various groups having to get press attention) to clear up. Even now one of the patients at my father-in-law's dialysis clinic just got fined for using his car despite having the safe conduct and this being a sanctioned exemption, but the policeman didn't know. He got it sorted out in the end by having to go to the police station to complain to a higher ranking officer - not something a elderly person with a chronic illness should be doing right now!
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri May 01, 2020 9:48 am

noclevername wrote:Interesting topic.
gerard wrote:And if there was a law prohibiting the collection of medicines by a 3rd party by showing the recipient's ID you'd maybe have a point. But there isn't, so you don't. My wife often collects medicines for her parents this way, even from pharmacies in hospitals run by the government.


Then why is presentation of an ID required?
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby gerard » Fri May 01, 2020 10:04 am

To show you're representing the person who the medicine is for. This is for named prescription stuff, not just over the counter general medicine.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri May 01, 2020 10:44 am

How could anyone possible know that unless the ID matches the one presenting it or else why even require an ID?
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby gerard » Fri May 01, 2020 11:22 am

Not sure why you're finding this so complicated. The doctor logs the prescription in a computer linked to the pharmacy. To retrieve the prescription you need the ID of the recipient. The recipient doesn't need to get the stuff themselves, they can send someone, but that person must take the ID of the recipient. The dispenser looks at the prescription on their computer and checks that the ID matches.

Not saying every clinic and every pharmacy has this functionality, but certainly the ones run by the government do.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri May 01, 2020 12:09 pm

What is so complicated? All an ID is something with a name and a picture, says nothing about the one presenting it, unless of course the one identified on the ID is the one presenting it. Seems pretty simple to me.
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby Alan » Fri May 01, 2020 1:33 pm

It makes sense that pharmacies would use discretion in this case, since it is unreasonable to expect the sick to pick up their own prescription. But there are some pharmaceuticals that you need to sign for in person because they have the potential to be used in the elaboration of illegal recreational drugs. This happened to a friend of mine who is well into his seventies; he got a good chuckle when they told him why he had to sign. But, after our experience with Walter White, would can we really trust anymore. :)
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Re: Discrimination against seniors

Postby Alan » Wed May 20, 2020 11:40 am

We've just published this article on the main page of expatperu.com (tangentially related to this thread).

Any comments or personal experiences to share?

https://www.expatperu.com/careful-with- ... nter-meds/
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"Hay que distanciarnos hoy para luego abrazarnos más fuerte".
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