Cultural codes

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Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:48 pm

windsportinperu wrote:They are zero serious - they tell you are going to buy, but never do . . . They tell you one thing, but do another . . .

About 5% in Peru is that way, but in Bolivia more than 50%

This has been my experience in Peru as well, but far more than 5%.

I think there's something about the culture where people don't want to be direct and say "No thank you. I'm not interested." Instead I've gotten lots of enthusiastic appearing interest, but when push comes to shove many times people just don't follow through. "Yeah, that sounds really good and like something we could use. Call me tomorrow at 9 and we'll talk more." Always with a smile and enthusiasm. Call next day at 9 and no answer. Follow up and experience the same circle of enthusiasm-dodge. Eventually you start to get the picture that if the person isn't exactly lying (which implies bad intent), they're certainly not being honest.

It's the same as asking someone for directions and then being giving wrong directions instead of the person saying, "Sorry, I don't know how to get where you want to go." Happens a lot here. They'd rather send you on a wild goose chase with the idea that they're being helprul instead of be honest which would save you time and hassle.

I'm okay with rejection; I'd just prefer someone wouln't waste my time if they're truly not interested. Probably has to do with my culture being far more direct and unafraid to clearly tell someone "No" when they're not interested. Here it's more you have to expect that a person's actions aren't going to equal their words. I stopped believing what people tell me and now wait to see how they actually act. Better to be pleasantly surprised than disapointed and angry that people don't do what they say.

I interpret it as a cultural thing where perhaps people don't want to be negative and disapoint and that it's something that I need to adjust to because Peruvians themselves realize that a spoken "yes" isn't actually a manifested yes until the sale is made. Maybe they think it's rude to say "no."

I'd put it closer to 50% than 5%, and have had conversations over the years with many Peruvians who have confirmed a lot of the above. Then again, maybe they just want to be polite and agree with me, even if they disagree.


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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby 69roadrunner » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:15 pm

windsportinperu wrote:69road,

I said that I want to be short on this topic.

If you want to know more, give me your reasons and send me a PM . . .

I gotta give you a 'reason' for asking a simple question? You made some wild accusations, be nice to explain. Why should I go the PM route when I just asked you here?
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby windsportinperu » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:43 pm

A "rule of thumb" that could help to make the differentiation between good and bad data, when asking for an address

“”if someone tell me that the address is “over there” it means nothing to me. But if someone tells me that the address is 2 blocks from here and then 1 to the left. It is a genuine data for me””

Once we are streetwise we learn how to dismiss the good from the bad data. It is easy once we understand the "codes" behind a response.

Most of people in my home country has been nice with me, probably because I know how to ask for an address. It all depends on our own modals. Before asking for an address it is good to say "buenos dias", "buenas tardes", "hola amigo", etc . . .
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby noclevername » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pm

I'm always super polite in my interactions. Always start with a buenos dias/tardes/noche. Always. Without exception.

Still have had plenty of experiences where people can't say 'no' or 'I don't know' and instead give false enthusiam or bad directions.
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby windsportinperu » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:23 pm

NoClever,

It is just one of the good qualities of People of Peru when trying to help people from abroad with an address, a restaurant, a place, data, etc. I really do not understand why a lot of peruvians (50%) do not want to help you with data or addresses

The "fake" enthusiasm when buying something is another code to be understood. It is not fake or lack of sincerity. It is just saying "no" in another way. Once we understand the codes, everything is fine . .. Different Countries has different codes of behaviour .
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby noclevername » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:51 pm

It's not that I think people don't want to help. It's that people don't want to admit that in a particular circumstance they are not able to help. In those cases their desire to be helpful turns out to be more harmful than simply admitting they can't help. I don't see not being honest as to one's limitations of knowledge or abilities as being a good quality at all. Don't tell me you can fix my car when you can't only for me to learn a week later when I go to pick it up that you weren't being honest when describing your abilities. Just tell me 'Sorry, but I can't help you. You're problem is out of my range of skills.' I need to get my car fixed, not be subjected to further delays because you can't actually do what you say you can do. There's really no shame in saying that you simply don't know something that someone wants help with. I do it all the time. Maybe it's more of a macho thing, because in the US men are less likely to stop and ask directions when lost than women are. Men are generally conditioned to not admit that they don't know something.

I finally came to realize that 'false enthusiam' was just that - false. I also realize that it's a code that needs to be deciphered. I get it. It's a cultural norm. I just happen to prefer a cultural norm where people are more direct with each other when it comes to things as we're discussing. Not that I don't appreciate the politeness aspect to the 'enthusiasm,' I just find being more direct, even when negative, is less of a waste of time for all concerned. Tell me no, you're not interested, and I won't bother you anymore. Tell me yes when you really mean no and now you're wasting my time and ultimately your own when I continue trying to secure your business. "No" can be said politely. I'd prefer a polite "No" over a polite "yes" that I need to decipher and ultimatley means no and a waste of my time. I'd even prefer a less than polite "no" over a polite, but false, yes.

But that's me, and as mentioned I get the cultural difference, and when in Rome do as the Romans, so please don't interpret my observations as being anything more than observations. I'm not whining or suggesting that Peruvians should make wholesale changes to their culture to please me or expats in general, but I am saying that your observations of Peru being 10x better than Bolivia on all of this doesn't match up with my experiences at all which shows (me) that both are far closer to being equal.
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby windsportinperu » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:04 pm

NoClever,

The body language, the tone of the voice, the continuity of the interest as time goes by, the fast response of the phone, etc . .. are some of the characteristics of a genuine "si" versus a polite "si" that means "no"

I think people in Peru do not have that "precious" value about time as in Europe or Japan or USA . . they are not considering that your time is precious because time is not seeing that way . I do not mean that time means nothing here, but we have another concept about time.

I think that peru-concept of time has pros and cons . . The main pros is that people are in general hard-worker but are not "slave" of what the clocks says. I mean being punctual create people with a lot of stress , at least in Peru . ..

I hope that no-one here will understand that I am promoting lack of Punctuality, just saying that there are another ways to work that are human-friendly. I mean letting us to be somehow a little bit less punctual in time, let us to have a better human-to-human relationship
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby noclevername » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:07 pm

I should add that when dealing with clients who have an international clientele that they tended to be more direct with me and I've experienced far lower instances of 'false enthusiam.'

When COVID came and forced me to redirect my efforts toward obtaining clients who deal strictly with other Peruvians I noticed a much higher rate of 'false enthusiasm.'

Maybe those who deal with international clients realize that the 'good quality' of telling people what they want to hear, even if it isn't true, might be fine when dealing with fellow Peruvians but is actually a disadvantage to their business when dealing with international clients. Tell someone interested in staying in your hotel what they want to hear only for the guest to be disapointed when they arrive and discover the hotel isn't quite how it was described to them leads to bad reviews, and hoteliers realize the importance of good reviews and avoiding bad reviews in their marketing efforts.
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby windsportinperu » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:46 pm

NoClever

Part of the codes is the Language , too

For example, if soneone is trying to sell us something that we do not want to buy - we just say "para otro día, gracias" = what means "no"
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby alan » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:58 am

A super interesting topic that deserves it's own thread!

I agree with both of you: there are all kinds of codes that need to be interpreted/deciphered. It's one of the big challenges and joys of living here. My first job here back in the 90's was - oh god - selling advertising for a magazine. You can imagine the frustration of not knowing when "yes" meant "no"! That made a crappy job even worse.

The word "mecer", literally means "to rock a cradle back and forth". But in Peru, it is also used to describe when you get an anwer one day, then another another day, then another, then another, back and forth, until you finally get tired of insisting. Of course, that happens all over the world to a greater or lesser extent, but I love the analogy of making someone tired and having them give eventually give up insisting. So, if it happens to you, you can say: "Me estas meciendo, ¿no?"

Another one: I'll never forget the first time I saw "Un abrazo" in a sign-off from an e-mail I received from a man I barely knew. Of course, he was just being polite, fraternal and warm, but I was like "Whaaat? That's a little inappropriate!"

And yes, the "buenos días, buenas tardes, por favor, y gracias" is huge.

Thanks for your local input, Windsport.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:25 am

In America the black folks have it down to a science, it's called signafyin'.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:31 am

De nada Alan

Another rule for asking for an address :

If someone give us a direction or data that is not sure to be true for us, we just ask again to another person

It is all about understanding how it works and adapting to the new environment of "new cultural codes"

As Noclevername said, if the people is trying to be helpful but is not really , we just go to another person that can confirm the address

It is like the try-and-error strategy
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:35 am

Sounds like common sense to me. If you don't think you got the correct answer to your question you ask someone else. That is not simply unique to Peru, it is common sense anywhere.
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:43 pm

windsportinperu wrote:NoClever,

The body language, the tone of the voice, the continuity of the interest as time goes by, the fast response of the phone, etc . .. are some of the characteristics of a genuine "si" versus a polite "si" that means "no"

I think people in Peru do not have that "precious" value about time as in Europe or Japan or USA . . they are not considering that your time is precious because time is not seeing that way . I do not mean that time means nothing here, but we have another concept about time.

I think that peru-concept of time has pros and cons . . The main pros is that people are in general hard-worker but are not "slave" of what the clocks says. I mean being punctual create people with a lot of stress , at least in Peru . ..

I hope that no-one here will understand that I am promoting lack of Punctuality, just saying that there are another ways to work that are human-friendly. I mean letting us to be somehow a little bit less punctual in time, let us to have a better human-to-human relationship

So if you get a call from your bank, your cable company, some department store, etc., trying to get you to come in and sign up for some service you don't want, or upsell you to a more expensive account, line of credit, or cable package that you don't need, do you give the person a polite 'si' which encourages them to call you another day, over and over and over? Or do you tell them 'no, thank you, not interested?'

If you say 'no thank you, I'm not interested' why, instead of saying 'si' and put the onus on them to figure out your desires?

If you give them a polite 'si' does that mean that you value their time more than you value your own? Or that you'd rather continue wasting their time and negatively affect their ability to earn money (assuming they're paid by commission) by having them call again and again and again? Or that you value the feelings of a stranger making an unsolicited and unwanted sales call more than you value yourself? Or that you'd rather yourself be inconvenienced instead of directly and politely stating your desires and saying no with the intention of helping the person move on to a more profitable use of their time and energies?
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:50 pm

windsportinperu wrote:De nada Alan

Another rule for asking for an address :

If someone give us a direction or data that is not sure to be true for us, we just ask again to another person

It is all about understanding how it works and adapting to the new environment of "new cultural codes"

As Noclevername said, if the people is trying to be helpful but is not really , we just go to another person that can confirm the address

It is like the try-and-error strategy

If you don't know the area of the address you are seeking, how do you know if the person is giving you good information or sneding you in the wrong direction. How do you know that the next person you go to to confirm what the first person told you also doesn't know what they're talking about? At what point do you personally get frustrated; how many people does it take giving you bad information? Have you ever had a situation where getting correct information was important? An appointment for a doctor who won't see you if you're late? Directions to the airport to catch a flight? Ever been sent to a bad neighborhood where you were concerned about your safety?

In a land where people are unwilling to say 'Sorry, I don't know how to get where you need to go,' thank goddess for smartphones and gps. It's too bad we can trust technology more than we can people.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby alan » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:02 pm

Years ago, we asked for directions from a couple on the street. Their arms literally crossed over each other as they each pointed out the way we should go. We all had a good laugh.

My rule of thumb is now to evaluate just how convinced the person sounds when they give directions. If they seem slightly unsure, I´ll ask someone else.

Waze and Google maps has made life easier!
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:31 pm

NoClever,

Are you asking me what to do on every situation in your life in Peru , related to the "polite yes what means "no" ?
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby alan » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:55 pm

noclevername wrote:
windsportinperu wrote:De nada Alan

It is like the try-and-error strategy

If you don't know the area of the address you are seeking, how do you know if the person is giving you good information or sneding you in the wrong direction. How do you know that the next person you go to to confirm what the first person told you also doesn't know what they're talking about? At what point do you personally get frustrated; how many people does it take giving you bad information? Have you ever had a situation where getting correct information was important? An appointment for a doctor who won't see you if you're late? Directions to the airport to catch a flight? Ever been sent to a bad neighborhood where you were concerned about your safety?

In a land where people are unwilling to say 'Sorry, I don't know how to get where you need to go,' thank goddess for smartphones and gps. It's too bad we can trust technology more than we can people.


I've had a couple of the experiences you mention. Not fun, and very frustrating.

So, the "code" is deciphering if the person you ask actually knows what they are talking about, or they are just saving face. It sounds like good material of an episode of "Lie to Me", the show where the psychologist looks for micro-expressions in the face to see if the person is laying on the BS.

When I am driving with my wife, it's common for me to say "let's ask him".. to which she´ll reply, "no.. he won't know... ask that other guy instead".
Usually I find it better when she asks the question, too, because even though I am fluent in Spanish, my phrasing and accent can - and has - led to misunderstandings. I'm getting better about figuring out who to ask though. Taxi drivers are good. We've even paid them to lead the way out of shady neighborhoods. Wachimen are not so good. My guess is that they think because of the uniform, they really ought to know.. but since they only supervise their block, and come walking and not driving, their knowledge of the neighborhood is pretty limited.

We love to eat and try new local restaurants, so we frequently ask people about good places to eat in their neighborhood. My wife has this one down to a science. It seems the right person to ask is usually over 40, reasonably dressed, and a little fat. :) I am smiling while I write.. but no joke!
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:17 pm

Moral :

It is not only important how to undestand the Cultural Differences , but also to adapt to them . . .
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:19 pm

What works for me with directions is getting them piecemeal. Instead of relying on one person for directions I go a quad or three and then ask another person. And then again. If I get a few consecutive confirmations that are all the same I feel good about the directions.

But I usually try my best to figure out ahead of time how I need to get to where I'm going to minimize the number of times I need to ask and to make it so that I only need help the last part of the way.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:19 pm

windsportinperu wrote:NoClever,

Are you asking me what to do on every situation in your life in Peru , related to the "polite yes what means "no" ?

No, I wasn't asking about me and what I should do. I was being literal. I'm curious, what do you say when a bank/cable company/any unwanted solicitor calls or knocks on your door trying to sell you something you don't want. 'Si,' and leave it to them to figure out that you're not at all interested, which increases the probability that they'll call you back or return to your door to knock again? Or 'no,' and make your intentions and desires clear?
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby alan » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:21 pm

windsportinperu wrote:Moral :

It is not only important how to undestand the Cultural Differences , but also to adapt to them . . .


I am pretty sure that no one is arguing with you on this point.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:27 pm

NoClever,

I thought you were asking for help . . .

answering your question about "unsolicited request from companies" what I use to say is "no por ahora" . . . and then I mark that cellphone in my list as "nono" because I do not want to receive his/her phone later

"no por ahora" = is a polite way to say a plain "no"
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:30 pm

Alan,

But adapting is something that cannot be argue or not . . . it is a personal experience
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:32 pm

windsportinperu wrote:Moral :

It is not only important how to undestand the Cultural Differences , but also to adapt to them . . .

This is true. I never doubted that and firmly believe it's necessary.

My original point was to say that your statement from the other thread on Bolivia where you said:

"It is very hard to make business in Bolivia . The amount of Problems and Obstacles is huge... They are zero serious - they tell you are going to buy, but never do . . . They tell you one thing, but do another . . .

About 5% in Peru is that way, but in Bolivia more than 50%
They are zero serious - they tell you are going to buy, but never do . . . They tell you one thing, but do another . . ."


has not been my experience at all. I don't see the difference being 10x greater in Bolivia and probably about the same. I know that far more than 5% of people I've tried to conduct business with have "told me they are going to buy, but never do." I think your further posts on this, explaining how "The body language, the tone of the voice, the continuity of the interest as time goes by, the fast response of the phone, etc . .. are some of the characteristics of a genuine "si" versus a polite "si" that means "no"' actually helps confirm that Peru isn't really all that different, and certainly not to a degree of 10x.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:37 pm

NoClever,

Are you adapted to the Cultural Codes and Cultural Differences ? . . .

Honest Response , Please
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:38 pm

windsportinperu wrote:NoClever,

I thought you were asking for help . . .

answering your question about "unsolicited request from companies" what I use to say is "no por ahora" . . . and then I mark that cellphone in my list as "nono" because I do not want to receive his/her phone later

"no por ahora" = is a polite way to say a plain "no"

That's interesting, because what I posted was how in my experiences when speaking with gerentes about my services they were responding enthusiastically, telling me how they thought my service could be a help to their business, and that I should return after they've spoken with the owner/associates or to call them back at a certain time. That's a lot different than "no por ahora," which includes the word "no" and therefore is far more direct.

"No por ahora" is being both polite and sincere, even if ahora really means nunca.

And is there a practical reason you don't use what you referred to as a 'polite si' instead of a 'No por ahora?' Maybe you don't want to waste your time or be interrupted with future calls for something you don't want?

I don't see how what was called 'false enthusiasm' is sincere, even though it may be polite. I work for myself. I'm not in a situation where I can take a polite yes where I have to figure out the true meaning and not really care, because I'm getting paid anyway and I really don't care if the company I work for makes the sale or not. For people who work on commission only or work for themselves the expression 'time is money' is relevant. I'm not really fond of taking my time to return to someplace and put the energy into making a proposal where I've been told to come back to play some game when with a bit of sincerity I could focus my energies elsewhere.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:01 pm

windsportinperu wrote:NoClever,

Are you adapted to the Cultural Codes and Cultural Differences ? . . .

Honest Response , Please

As much as possible. I'm always learning new things as situations arise. I'm always open to learning.

As I said before, I'm not suggesting a culture should change to adapt to me or other expats. I was just refuting your statement that what you said happens half the time in Bolivia only happens 5% of the time here in Peru. Maybe you weren't being literal and what you said might be more of a reflection of the common attitude many have toward Bolivia and how it is a "lesser" country compared to Peru and just about every other country in S. America; much like how Chile looks down on Peru or any country looks down on another country as being less advanced, less cultured, etc. Maybe you were being literal. I don't know. I can only go by what you said and don't want to put words in your mouth.

After that I was just stating my observations and wondering aloud why people conduct certain aspects of business they way they do. I understand this in a business-consumer situation, but business-business transactions usually operate in a different way (again, in my experiences) where there's a mutual respect and understanding. In my experiences businesses who deal with international clients seem to understand this and businesses that deal strictly with fellow Peruvians are less likely to. Far less B.S. with the former, a lot more false sincerity, false promises, false enthusiasm, etc. with the latter.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby noclevername » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:04 pm

But even though I disagree with you on this, windsport, I do appreciate your opinions and contributions. I think they add a lot to this forum. Even though I wasn't looking for it, I appreciate your offer of help.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:12 pm

NoClever,

I understand your situation , so I would like to be next to you . to tell you what is "next" in your work . . . So I am making a flow chart as this:

1º day . . you and your client (Mr. X) meet or talk by phone and the client says something about your product/service "Me parece muy bonito e interesante, lo voy a pensar"
2º next days . . you are not sure if your client (Mr X) is interested or not . . . because he didn't say "no estoy interesado . . so what I would do ?

a. be pacient . . do not hurry the situation . . .wait for his/her response . If you begin to call him, he probably will begin to think : why this guy is so in a hurry ? and it can be "contra-producente" what means having the contrary effect
b. I personally do not call back . . . just wait and continue on the search of some others clients
c. if the client call you, see the reason why is calling back. Maybe for more information or maybe just curiosity
d.The most important thing is trying to maintain a friendly conversation because here in Peru being friendly is sometimes more important than being informative or helpful
e. Sometimes after more than the time you were expecting, suddenly the clients call you as request the product/services. It has happened to me . . . a lot of time. . .
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby 69roadrunner » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:18 pm

windsportinperu wrote:NoClever,

I understand your situation , so I would like to be next to you . to tell you what is "next" in your work . . . So I am making a flow chart as this:

1º day . . you and your client (Mr. X) meet or talk by phone and the client says something about your product/service "Me parece muy bonito e interesante, lo voy a pensar"
2º next days . . you are not sure if your client (Mr X) is interested or not . . . because he didn't say "no estoy interesado . . so what I would do ?

a. be pacient . . do not hurry the situation . . .wait for his/her response . If you begin to call him, he probably will begin to think : why this guy is so in a hurry ? and it can be "contra-producente" what means having the contrary effect
b. I personally do not call back . . . just wait and continue on the search of some others clients
c. if the client call you, see the reason why is calling back. Maybe for more information or maybe just curiosity
d.The most important thing is trying to maintain a friendly conversation because here in Peru being friendly is sometimes more important than being informative or helpful
e. Sometimes after more than the time you were expecting, suddenly the clients call you as request the product/services. It has happened to me . . . a lot of time. . .

I rest my case.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby windsportinperu » Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:30 pm

NoClever,

De nada . . . I am always trying to help with my limitation of the Language

I think that something that is very "key" - I mean important - is trying to internalize (interiorizar) is that people is not trying to hurt our feelings because they think that an straight "no" could be offensive . That is the real reason behind . .

When someone tell ""I do not want"" or ""do not need your product or service"", could be interpretated as ""I do not want you"" . .

When someone is saying something as "está muy bonito lo que ofreces" is because is offering respect to you as a person . . even though you are not sure if he is interested in your product

If I need to hurry up a response I could say something . . . . "Personalmente no me ofende que me digan un "no" como respuesta . This could be said on the 2º or 3º meeting (not in the 1º) when I am not sure of the interest of the person . . .

P.S. But usually trying to hurry the situaiton could have the contrary effect . . . it all depends on who are you talking about . . .
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby Donnie123 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:01 pm

windsportinperu wrote:NoClever,

The body language, the tone of the voice, the continuity of the interest as time goes by, the fast response of the phone, etc . .. are some of the characteristics of a genuine "si" versus a polite "si" that means "no"

I think people in Peru do not have that "precious" value about time as in Europe or Japan or USA . . they are not considering that your time is precious because time is not seeing that way . I do not mean that time means nothing here, but we have another concept about time.

I think that peru-concept of time has pros and cons . . The main pros is that people are in general hard-worker but are not "slave" of what the clocks says. I mean being punctual create people with a lot of stress , at least in Peru . ..

I hope that no-one here will understand that I am promoting lack of Punctuality, just saying that there are another ways to work that are human-friendly. I mean letting us to be somehow a little bit less punctual in time, let us to have a better human-to-human relationship


Yes, the time is different for Peruvian that from the USA. Peru is a 3er world a young country many things are still in savage state... it's a process some day maybe... As foreigner its good that everyone teach Peruvian that doing that USA or European way is better for everyone. I hope more Peruvian can go out to Peru and learn about other ways to live. From a Peruvian like me; to show a foreigner and learn a simple and free- conflict is worthy. Vicarious learning is a way... Just everyone has to have a sense of humor and understands they are in a process...
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Cultural codes

Postby alan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:08 am

Donnie123 wrote:
Yes, the time is different for Peruvian that from the USA. Peru is a 3er world a young country many things are still in savage state... it's a process some day maybe... As foreigner its good that everyone teach Peruvian that doing that USA or European way is better for everyone. I hope more Peruvian can go out to Peru and learn about other ways to live. From a Peruvian like me; to show a foreigner and learn a simple and free- conflict is worthy. Vicarious learning is a way... Just everyone has to have a sense of humor and understands they are in a process...


That's a great point. Countries are all in different points of evolution, or degradation. We all fall into the trap of generalizing about cultures, too, since they are so complex. I've found massive cultural differences within Peruvian society, many more than in my own home country of Canada. Differences among social classes can be huge, and that's one of the things that throws us newcomers off. It's especially hard for us to see just what we are dealing with.

Gender is another minefield. Back home, social events tend to be much more mixed, in the sense that men and women mingle a little more. In Lima, parties and get togethers almost always seem to divide into groups of men and groups of women. I've been happily married now for years, but I remember that dating was a little wierd. The cues and codes were not what I have used to at all. One of my favorite stories is from a friend who took a Peruvian lady out for dinner. When the check came and he suggested they split the bill... she stood up and walked out the door. :lol: Talk about reading the situation the wrong way.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby alan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:15 am

Donnie123 wrote:
Yes, the time is different for Peruvian that from the USA. Peru is a 3er world a young country many things are still in savage state... it's a process some day maybe... As foreigner its good that everyone teach Peruvian that doing that USA or European way is better for everyone. I hope more Peruvian can go out to Peru and learn about other ways to live. From a Peruvian like me; to show a foreigner and learn a simple and free- conflict is worthy. Vicarious learning is a way... Just everyone has to have a sense of humor and understands they are in a process...


That's a great point. Countries are all in different points of evolution, or degradation. We all fall into the trap of generalizing about cultures, too, since they are so complex. I've found massive cultural differences within Peruvian society, many more than in my own home country of Canada. Differences among social classes can be huge, and that's one of the things that throws us newcomers off. It's especially hard for us to see just what we are dealing with.

Gender is another minefield. Back in Canada, social events tend to be much more mixed, in the sense that men and women mingle a little more, while in Lima, parties and get togethers almost always seem to divide into groups of men, and groups of women. I've been happily married now for years, but I remember that dating was a little wierd, too; the cues and codes were not what I had been used to at all! One of my favorite stories is from a friend who took a Peruvian lady out for dinner. When the check came and he suggested they split the bill... she stood up and walked out the door. :lol: Talk about reading the situation the wrong way.
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Re: Bolivia connections wanted

Postby 69roadrunner » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:32 am

Donnie123 wrote:Yes, the time is different for Peruvian that from the USA. Peru is a 3er world a young country

In the grand scheme of things, Peru and the USA are about the same age, what a difference. Why the difference.
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Cultural codes

Postby alan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:17 pm

69roadrunner wrote:
Donnie123 wrote:Yes, the time is different for Peruvian that from the USA. Peru is a 3er world a young country

In the grand scheme of things, Peru and the USA are about the same age, what a difference. Why the difference.


The USA seemed to consolidate much faster and develop solid institutions. From what I've heard though, politics back in the 1870´s seemed pretty similar to what Peru is living through today, in terms of corruption and the good ol´ pork barrel. Add to that the wars with neighbors, political unrest and social instability, and Peru gets set back in terms of development.

And speaking about cultural codes.. here is another one: What school does your son/daughter go to? More than an interest in where they study, often a veiled question to figure out how much money someone has.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby 69roadrunner » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:20 pm

Similar how? Certainly nor serial impeachments. 1870's was the dawn of the new world with all the inventions and wealth that came from America.
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby alan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:31 pm

69roadrunner wrote:Similar how? Certainly nor serial impeachments. 1870's was the dawn of the new world with all the inventions and wealth that came from America.


That's true. But politics at the time were a mess.

"Politicians of the time largely catered to business interests in exchange for political support and wealth. Many participated in graft and bribery, often justifying their actions with the excuse that corruption was too widespread for a successful politician to resist. The machine politics of the cities, specifically Tammany Hall in New York, illustrate the kind of corrupt, but effective, local and national politics that dominated the era."

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/atd-f ... 1870-1900/


Sound familiar?
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Re: Cultural codes

Postby 69roadrunner » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:33 pm

Not a bit.

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