Why is it that peruvians don't want to talk about classism?

[Ragnorak20]

Hello everyone,

I have been lurking this forum and find it very interesting and insightful. I wanted to ask why is it that most peruvians tend to not want to discuss inequalities in Lima like pitucos inapproapite behaviour such as their poor treatment of maids or their classist view towards others.

Reading various peruvian forums I notice a pattern that when someone raises awareness towards certain issues be it about racism or classism most peruvians tend to not want to discuss the issue, instead they focus on the people doing the accusations calling them "acomplejados" or "resentful" or just saying there "is rascism everywhere it is much worst in country X".

I notice this in real life as well. I have family in Peru and they also try to avoid the issue and make it seem like it's not there, to the point the it seems that people get angry when someone starts talking about these topics.

My theory is that peru being a high context culture people tend to want to maintain harmony no matter what.

I apologize if this thread is controversial in any way my main goal is to have a thoughtful discussion.

[alchemist]

Persons who use terms such as "acomplejados" in response to someone raising a general issue, do so to bring things down to a personal level, in order to destabilize someone. To best make someone doubt, apologize, you need to work on emotions on the unconscious level. Some call it the power of suggestion

[falconagain]

Peru has been always divided by people that are up or down according to the circumstances.

In the 60s the majority of Land was divided between a few owners. And there was a rigid
social order in the provinces. At the end of the decade the military took over the land and
decided to divide it between the poorest. In this case they were the top brass of the comunist
party. At the beginning everything was fine because the US had a crisis too. But after 5 years
they noticed that the landowners were the ones in charge of food production, and the communists
were a bunch of morons that were good only to steal. Consequence, food prices start rising and
poverty increased after that solution.

That is how Peru went through the 70s. Up to that decade the Air force and the Navy were only
for white people. During the 80s, everybody started to blame the US and the IMF for our poverty.
Instead of blaming the incompetent farmers that killed millions of malnutrition and that keep
doing that until today. In 1985 our new President Alan Garcia said, it is the gringos fault, we are
not paying our national debt anymore. This way things will improve for everybody. (Sounds like
Obama). Alan Garcia appeared on the cover of TIme Magazine because of that. Then fast forward
to 1990s. The country was completely broke. The few people at the top that could escape bought
one way tickets to the US or Europe. Enter the 1990s, Fujimori got elected based on the promise
of honesty, work and progress. After 2 or 3 years everybody noticed that the promise was meant
only for his family. The Fujimori family went from business losers to winners overnight. Fujimori
sister was in charge of receiving all international donations to Peru, Fujimori started selling the
Peruvian citizenship in Asia, all employment positions for private and estate were approved by the
Fujimori family. At the end the country got poorer. Mysteriously Fujimori friends got richer year
after year. The majority of people that were able to travel abroad (90% of the plane) were only
the people that were friends with Fujimori. You could go in a plane to the US or Europe and swear
that you were living in China. After 10 years (Fujimori wanted 20), people got tired and elected
Toledo and then they got pissed at him because he was too honest.

After Toledos honesty government we got Alan Garcia back again, why; because as Peruvians we
are sadists, Alan Garcia is our Nixon. Alan Garcia pardoned a lot of drug dealers and left the government.
For the next administration the majority was in the mood to get an Indian but not smart as Toledo
because it makes us feel bad and uncomfortable. We got Humala that so far has been going with
the flow without making any critical changes.

Every Night I pray. We need a Peruvian Pinochet, ra ra. Pinochet ra ra.

[bobg]

I'm glad you said the truth of how peru got where she is now, no excuses, no blame. Keep up the dialog.....

[ardilla]

This is interesting. I think people in the US and also Peru have great difficulty talking about social class (after all, class is simply not supposed to exist in the US, as there is a myth there about the middle class being "American) and in Peru class and classsism as a topic is discussed openly in some social circles and not so openly in others. My husband and I have live in both countries and have concluded that the hidden dimensions of class (and by extension classism) are just as powerful in the US as they are in Peru and probably elsewhere. The manifestations of classism vary across time and space but they are alive in our societies nevertheless.

[fanning]

Please remember the mother of the 'lost' Americans who only would accept their missing son being found ( reported as found by Peruvian military ) if it was confirmed by 'American' eyes.. ( Peruvian eyes would not be trustworthy enough )
Talking of classism.

[falconagain]

Please remember the mother of the 'lost' Americans who only would accept their missing son being found ( reported as found by Peruvian military ) if it was confirmed by 'American' eyes.. ( Peruvian eyes would not be trustworthy enough )
Talking of classism.

The same way Peruvians judge Americans that go to volunteer to high risk terrorist controlled areas.
The area was controlled by terrorists for 10 years, besides the police and the army nobody goes there.
But American volunteers somehow slip through and surprise they get captured.

Whenever something like this happens, either on reality or fiction. (Like in the last Rambo movie).
All Peruvians wonder "Are all Americans mentally challenged???"

[bobg]

i THINK THAT A MOTHERS DESPERATION IS GREATER THAN CLASS DISTINCTION WHERE EVER SHE MIGHT LIV !
FOR WHAT EVER REASON YOU WANT TO ADD CLASS TO HER APPREHENSION .

[kpw]

How do you define "classism"?

In Peru, there is 2 things that would differentiate classes, I would think: education and economic status.

This has lead to a white social class, that went to european/american schools in Lima, and even had the chance to study abroad. These white social class were there since the conquista (these were the same spanish that wanted to get independence from the spanish kings).

Generalizing:

- Being well educated, meant having money. This is not the case in the developed world.
- Having no money, meant being badly educated. This is not the case in the developed world.

So how does education affect: the way they talk and what you can talk, hygiene, how they drive and respect others. People one would prefer themselves and their children avoiding.

Due to Peru's boom, lately we see all kinds of Peruvians that have money but their education is still atrocious (driving their huge SUVs). Hopefully they will soon value the meaning of an education and respect for one another.

I am generalizing here, but I think there is some truth.

[falconagain]

How do you define "classism"?

In Peru, there is 2 things that would differentiate classes, I would think: education and economic status.

This has lead to a white social class, that went to european/american schools in Lima, and even had the chance to study abroad. These white social class were there since the conquista (these were the same spanish that wanted to get independence from the spanish kings).

Generalizing:

- Being well educated, meant having money. This is not the case in the developed world.
- Having no money, meant being badly educated. This is not the case in the developed world.

So how does education affect: the way they talk and what you can talk, hygiene, how they drive and respect others. People one would prefer themselves and their children avoiding.

Due to Peru's boom, lately we see all kinds of Peruvians that have money but their education is still atrocious (driving their huge SUVs). Hopefully they will soon value the meaning of an education and respect for one another.

I am generalizing here, but I think there is some truth.

I do not think that there is classism anymore. Peru currently has the highest number of Universities in proportion to its population. Meaning that there is currently at least a million students in college.
The average amount of money to send a kid to college is at least $50,000. $50,000 times one million
is a huge amount of money. Peruvian Universities accept everybody. Taking this in account, nobody can
say that there is a lack of opportunities when so many people can afford to send their children to college
and pay cash for their studies. (Meaning that today 1 of every 30 Peruvians is a college graduate, looks like the government is flooding the market in order to lower the wages even more)

The main problem is not the classism but the culture of corruption. People are obliged to involve themselves
in shady business in order to get ahead. It is not the survival of the fittest but the most corrupt. By allowing
the country to continue in the current path is a recipe for disaster. The corrupt has no responsabilities and
does not care for any consequences.

The fact that Peru has become the number one cocaine producer is proof of this situation.

[Bobby]

I have a quite different analysis over this topic and I think "classim" is a hot topic in Peru (even though I agree it is not openly discussed at least with foreigners) . In a nutshell:

1. Classism in Peru not only refers to socioeconomics status but also to ethnicity and way of life. IMHO the 1993 Constitution of Peru does establish a legal discrimination between "normal citizens" and "comunidades campesinas/indigenas".

2. In the near past classism issues gave birth to the Apra and to Mariategui's ideas which influences got way beyond the borders of the Peru.

3. Since the early 1960's until the late nineties Peru suffered various guerrillas movements (you probably heard of sendero and mrta) based on classism issues.

4. Since all Peruvians are able to vote (second half of the XXth century) all the elected presidents (except in ihmo Belaunde Terry) won the elections based on populist/nationalist t and/or socialist and or authoritarian left programs or military coups (Velazco, Bermudes). Most of these presidents - as usual, did the opposite they've promissed.

5. Despite the economic boom that is claimed, Peru remains a very poor country. Climb to cerro san cristobal and take a look.

[kpw]

I do not think that there is classism anymore. Peru currently has the highest number of Universities in proportion ....

The main problem is not the classism but the culture of corruption....

Unfortunately the level of education provided by the vast majority of universities (not all of them) is terrible. That is why most of them are not accredited in any way. Most of the people that will leave these universities will still have jobs that pay poorly. Many of these universities should be called colleges, and not many offer doctorate degrees.

Again a problem of education, not being educated feeds corruption...


There is a problem of classism. But it is goes both ways, the poor/uneducated also have an issue with the rich/educated.

This is changing anyway compared to how it was 30 years ago.

[kpw]

I do not think that there is classism anymore. Peru currently has the highest number of Universities in proportion ....

The main problem is not the classism but the culture of corruption....

Unfortunately the level of education provided by the vast majority of universities (not all of them) is terrible. That is why most of them are not accredited in any way. Most of the people that will leave these universities will still have jobs that pay poorly. Many of these universities should be called colleges, and not many offer doctorate degrees.

Again a problem of education, not being educated feeds corruption...


There is a problem of classism. But it is goes both ways, the poor/uneducated also have an issue with the rich/educated.

This is changing anyway compared to how it was 30 years ago.

1. Classism in Peru not only refers to socioeconomics status but also to ethnicity and way of life. IMHO the 1993 Constitution of Peru does establish a legal discrimination between "normal citizens" and "comunidades campesinas/indigenas".

The campesinos that move to Lima are also "acomplejados" as many of them decide to stop speaking their mother tongue quechua.

Only 4.5% of Lima's population has been purely here for 3 generations (self, father, grandfather), the rest has been immigration from the countryside. I would expect more Quechua to be heard in the streets with this ratio.

[BellbottomBlues]

My partner is Peruvian and we currently live in the US.

He has an advanced graduate degree, was raised middle class (however that translates in Peru) and I have always known him to be an open minded, enlightened, accepting individual - however, there is one situation which seems to make him uncomfortable - whenever we around undocumented Peruvians here in the US, restaurants, parties, etc. I sometimes wonder if this is a class issue - since he resides here legally and whenever this happens, I notice he gets uncharacterically uncomfortable, as if these other Peruvians in the US will question the authenticity of our relationship, etc.

As I said, it is a curiosity for me. He has trouble verbalizing his discomfort, which is unusual for him because normally he loves to talk on any subject! LOL.

BBB

[falconagain]

I do not think that there is classism anymore. Peru currently has the highest number of Universities in proportion ....

The main problem is not the classism but the culture of corruption....

Unfortunately the level of education provided by the vast majority of universities (not all of them) is terrible. That is why most of them are not accredited in any way. Most of the people that will leave these universities will still have jobs that pay poorly. Many of these universities should be called colleges, and not many offer doctorate degrees.

Again a problem of education, not being educated feeds corruption...


There is a problem of classism. But it is goes both ways, the poor/uneducated also have an issue with the rich/educated.

This is changing anyway compared to how it was 30 years ago.

1. Classism in Peru not only refers to socioeconomics status but also to ethnicity and way of life. IMHO the 1993 Constitution of Peru does establish a legal discrimination between "normal citizens" and "comunidades campesinas/indigenas".

The campesinos that move to Lima are also "acomplejados" as many of them decide to stop speaking their mother tongue quechua.

Only 4.5% of Lima's population has been purely here for 3 generations (self, father, grandfather), the rest has been immigration from the countryside. I would expect more Quechua to be heard in the streets with this ratio.

The problem is not the terrible Universities, but the students themselves. If they want to study they have the
choice to go to the University that requires them to do so. They can go to Catolica, San Marcos, Villareal, San Martin, University of Lima (I mixed national and private, still there is a place for everybody). The
current problem of bad education is that the students condone this policy. And for your information the
majority of Peruvian Universties are actually accredited by the Peruvian Ministry of Education who
also sends a report to the US. I took some online courses in a lower level new Universtiy and they were
recognized in the US without any problem.

Still, it is not that the students and parents care, same as with the drivers licenses they just pay
and start working or driving, damn the consequences. Which is I guess what they wanted.

Now can you say that in the US 1 in 30 students finishes college without any debt. I think not.
Do not be fooled by a person living in San Cristobal, Lurigancho or Villa el Salvador, many of them
have a networth of half a million or more. Otherwise you can go to their clubs and houses of ill
repute on the weekends and ask for the prostitution prices. And then ask yourself how is it possible
that people in that district can afford the fees for those services in the amounts of $500 a night
or more.

The guerrilla movements were not based on classism but on plain terrorism and antiamericanism.
They demanded to remove or kill all Americans in Peruvian soil together with american corporations.
(Something that the US Embassy will confirm to you).

"In the near past classism issues gave birth to the Apra and to Mariategui's ideas which influences got way beyond the borders of the Peru."

Have you even read Mariategui, his rethoric is completely backward and pro communist. If you read his main book, according to him Peruvians are a form of soft angels ready to be abused by the evi powers of American foreign intervention. Mariategui is good for fairy tales. If you want to read about the real Peru
you should pick up Jose Maria Arguedas. He says the truth at least. Mariategui has a paternalistic view of Peruvian society that forgives its built in corruption which is why he became popular.

And APRA, the party founded by a guy that avoided work like a plague all his life. They were the laughing
stock of all other parties for years. When the guy finally got a job as a head of congress he died within a
year because he never worked seriously one day on his life. Haya de la Torre. The patron of lazy Peruvians.

[Bobby]

The guerrilla movements were not based on classism but on plain terrorism and antiamericanism.

"In the near past classism issues gave birth to the Apra and to Mariategui's ideas which influences got way beyond the borders of the Peru."

Have you even read Mariategui, his rethoric is completely backward and pro communist. If you read his main book, according to him Peruvians are a form of soft angels ready to be abused by the evi powers of American foreign intervention. Mariategui is good for fairy tales. If you want to read about the real Peru
you should pick up Jose Maria Arguedas. He says the truth at least. Mariategui has a paternalistic view of Peruvian society that forgives its built in corruption which is why he became popular.
And APRA, the party founded by a guy that avoided work like a plague all his life. They were the laughing
stock of all other parties for years. When the guy finally got a job as a head of congress he died within a
year because he never worked seriously one day on his life. Haya de la Torre. The patron of lazy Peruvians.

Fist of all you miss the whole point of the OP. It's about if there is a classism issue in Peru and why people seem not to talk about it. It isn't about what you erroneously say about Mariategui, guerrillas movement, or the Apra. I only mentionned these facts of Peruvian History to point out that classism has been present in Peru since the XXth century.

Like me you probably don't like the guerrillas movements, or Apra, but please if you don't master your history avoid saying non sense and silly things. It doens't add any positive contribution to the thread. Instead I invite you to read "la ilusion archaïca" from MVL. You will learn, among many things, that Arguedas creative work (not his scientific one) was all but an ideal vision on the Andes life style. Nothing much to do with reality. Still I find Rios Profundos an amazing novel.

[augusto ruiz]

To understand Peruvian society we must first take account of where they come from their main roots. In my opinion the Peruvian society basically consists of six sources: Chinese, Japanese, Italian, Spanish, African and clear the Inca. All this is now part of what is the Peruvian society (there are other cultures but with much less influence in our society).

Before the age of 60´s Peru was basically governed by a group of families who decide everything, and they were basically families with European background, white families. So, in Peru whiteness was associated with economic power and a high social class. That is why until now when we talking about classism in Peru also inevitably relate the ethnic group they belong to, and often that go to racial discussions, where white is synonymous of high class, black are poor , Chinese were slaves and Incas did not have nothing. Nowadays, those stereotypes has been changed a lot and our society is more equal, but still subsystem some stereotypes.

Actually the distribution of power and economic rights are more balance than before. We can see that for example in the pass with Fujimori who has Japanese background and Toledo with is a native Peruvian background.

Currently, and after many years of discussions and suffering we are building a single idea of what mean be a Peruvian. It is what we say now we are ´Mestizo´. And that´s mean for me forget your color skin and be part of one nation rather than six in one.

So I think people in Peru do not like to talk about classism because it leads to racism and ethnic discussions, and that cost us a lot of hard work and pain to leave behind.

Bueno, cuidense y suerte.

[falconagain]

The guerrilla movements were not based on classism but on plain terrorism and antiamericanism.

"In the near past classism issues gave birth to the Apra and to Mariategui's ideas which influences got way beyond the borders of the Peru."

Have you even read Mariategui, his rethoric is completely backward and pro communist. If you read his main book, according to him Peruvians are a form of soft angels ready to be abused by the evi powers of American foreign intervention. Mariategui is good for fairy tales. If you want to read about the real Peru
you should pick up Jose Maria Arguedas. He says the truth at least. Mariategui has a paternalistic view of Peruvian society that forgives its built in corruption which is why he became popular.
And APRA, the party founded by a guy that avoided work like a plague all his life. They were the laughing
stock of all other parties for years. When the guy finally got a job as a head of congress he died within a
year because he never worked seriously one day on his life. Haya de la Torre. The patron of lazy Peruvians.

Fist of all you miss the whole point of the OP. It's about if there is a classism issue in Peru and why people seem not to talk about it. It isn't about what you erroneously say about Mariategui, guerrillas movement, or the Apra. I only mentionned these facts of Peruvian History to point out that classism has been present in Peru since the XXth century.

Like me you probably don't like the guerrillas movements, or Apra, but please if you don't master your history avoid saying non sense and silly things. It doens't add any positive contribution to the thread. Instead I invite you to read "la ilusion archaïca" from MVL. You will learn, among many things, that Arguedas creative work (not his scientific one) was all but an ideal vision on the Andes life style. Nothing much to do with reality. Still I find Rios Profundos an amazing novel.

You need to go an pick up some Peruvian high school text or even the movement of reconciliation
website (which describes in a realistic way the terrorism acts that happened in the 80s and the 90s,
the description is so vivid that I tried to post a couple of paragraphs from the website here and
they were immediately censored, looks like the truth is uncomfortable for everybody). My family is from
the Andes and not from Lima, so I know precisely how accurate is the depiction of Arguedas, straight
from the horse not only mouth, but I lived with the freaking horses if the saying can be adapted that
way. Rios Profundos is 100% realistic. MVL has to tone it down because otherwise a bad stereotype
might form. But that is reality.

[falconagain]

To understand Peruvian society we must first take account of where they come from their main roots. In my opinion the Peruvian society basically consists of six sources: Chinese, Japanese, Italian, Spanish, African and clear the Inca. All this is now part of what is the Peruvian society (there are other cultures but with much less influence in our society).

Before the age of 60´s Peru was basically governed by a group of families who decide everything, and they were basically families with European background, white families. So, in Peru whiteness was associated with economic power and a high social class. That is why until now when we talking about classism in Peru also inevitably relate the ethnic group they belong to, and often that go to racial discussions, where white is synonymous of high class, black are poor , Chinese were slaves and Incas did not have nothing. Nowadays, those stereotypes has been changed a lot and our society is more equal, but still subsystem some stereotypes.

Actually the distribution of power and economic rights are more balance than before. We can see that for example in the pass with Fujimori who has Japanese background and Toledo with is a native Peruvian background.

Currently, and after many years of discussions and suffering we are building a single idea of what mean be a Peruvian. It is what we say now we are ´Mestizo´. And that´s mean for me forget your color skin and be part of one nation rather than six in one.

So I think people in Peru do not like to talk about classism because it leads to racism and ethnic discussions, and that cost us a lot of hard work and pain to leave behind.

Bueno, cuidense y suerte.

When you talk about the "Chinese, Japanese, Italian, Spanish, African and clear the Inca", when
you are talking about all of them, you are referring to Lima only, 95% of all newcomers stay in Lima,
but Lima does not represent Peru. Lima has a set of interests that are completely different from the
ones that people have in every department. Currently in the name of equality, the State has provided
more freedom and self administration than ever in our known history. Every province has a budget
that has been subsidized by the mining income from the whole country. Meaning that every province
has more money than before. Everybody is getting their requested equality. If they mismanaged it in
some crazy monuments, money laundering, prostitution and drug use. It is not the government place
to fix it. Its freedom and self determination at its best.

[richorozco]

Wow...... great discussions!!!

Let me give my 2 cents ( <eyes roll> ) .....

1. As for people not speaking Quechua when they leave the Provinces to go to Lima: Why would you want to speak Quechua? How does it help you? Should people from the ghettos of Chicago & New York speak in Ebonics when they become professionals or go to the suburbs? Should the Mexicans(legal or illegal) speak English when they are in the US?

I think one should assimilate to their environment, regardless of where they are at. A hillbilly who goes to the bug city no longer eats road kill such as racoons, squirrels, etc....right? How on earth is Quechua going to help you succeed in Lima, get a high paying job, work in a professional place, go to College where Spanish is spoken, etc....

2. As for Classism .... Yes, it exist today. Peruvians who are well off (de pinta or nombre) think that they are better than most and to feel better about themselves, they do not want the masses to come up and think nof themselves as equivalent.

You can go to College, but only the ones who go to the "good" (i.e. expensive/exclusive) Colleges, will get the jobs. As for Sales/Business, you better have the "look" to succeed in that arena.

In the US, it is the opposite. The engineers and MBAs are Indian (Hindu), Korean, Middle-Eastern, etc... and intelligence, work ethic, and credentials are highly valued. I wonder why the US comes out with so many innovative products. Could it be that the US has the best of the best (of the entire world)?


3. As for the Peruvian (in the US), who feels uncomfortable among illegal Peruvians. Its just another form of classism. The guy wants to feel better than "those" Peruvians .... he may think that they give Peruvians a bad name and wants people to associate Peru with educated people who get citizenship thru legal means.

The Peruvian guy in the US does not want to be thrown in to the bucket of "illegal mexican" and wants to distance himself from a Peruvian waiter, cook, or simpleton.


I love going to Peru because I look 100% Peruvian (mom and dad are Peruvian ... no other ethnicity from other countries) but was born in the US and educated in the US. I see all the crap where some guy (pobre diablo) thinks he is the best (his S&%t does not smell) because of his last name and lives off of the riches from his father, grand father, etc.... They are not Professionals, they can not compare to an American or European (same blue eyes and blonde hair ....but the American and European has cultural awareness and is educated (not formal education ....but knows how to deal with other culturals and is open to different things).

4. Last one .... Education and driving. I have Masters degree and all sorts of paper degrees....went to parochial school (i.e. Catholic grammar school), etc.... When you live in a big city, there is road rage. Period.

Now mix that with Latino blood (Yes, you have to stereo-type) and you will notice that people do not let themselves get pushed around (no se dejan) .... Now, you just have all sorts of testerone and classism thoughts flowing (i.e. ese Indio me va cortar? .... Carajo ....yo tengo mi mechita (benz) y soy blancon....etc)

[richiecry]

Richorozco,
I really like your post. The first point you bring up I think is the best point. In Canada, if you can speak French AND English, the world in terms of success in Canada is much more open than if you can only speak one of the two main languages. This could have been because of many reasons including enforced signage on all federal government signs in both English and French. I think if the Peruvian government implemented a law such as this, value for knowing the 2 main languages in Peru would increase (but then that leads to other issues and begets other questions such as worth and cost blah blah blah).

I remember a number of years ago I was at a friend’s house in Pueblo Libre and it just before the election of Toledo. My friend is a “typical” Peruvian of mixed blood…and I remember sitting in the kitchen eating some food that his grandmother made. His grandmother came into the kitchen talking about something in Spanish very quickly and she was clearly agitated. My friend then argued with her and she left the room. I was curious (or nosy might be a better word) and asked what the argument was about….his response…was that even though his grandmother is almost pure native Indian (Incan ancestry—she could speak quechua)…she was arguing that Toledo should not be President because he was Indian…..

[Ragnorak20]

Thank's everyone for your thoughtful contributions to the thread. I find them all highly interesting. I wanted to expand on what @Richorozco said about the wealthy white peruvians. I think classism is tied up with a form of silent rascism, within these white rich peruvians. For instance, I had a friend who attended one of those elite schools in Peru and he mentioned that despite there being a few ameridian students they were mostly excluded from the social circles. For me it seems as if they were like international students who would go to a foreign country and they were seen as different and left to socialize among themselves.

This opens up the question, how far can money take you in Peru? Does it mean that you are allowed to enter this prestigious schools or even buy property on elite neighborhoods yet still by the excluded by the insiders?For instance, I once read a wealthy bussinessman from the highlands was not permitted to enter his own property for being "indian looking" Will there ever be integration in Peru?

[richorozco]

Yeah....I agree. The more languages you know the better. Especially in this global economy. However, the languages have to be useful for whatever purpose you have in life. For example, you mentioned French ...definitely agree on that. Many Europeans (look at the Swiss) speak more than 2 languages and it is a neccesity, especially if you are surrounded by other countries with different cultures/languages.

As for Toledo .... The guy is smart. US educated and knows about finance. Unfortunately, the truth hurts people (at least they get offended) and they love to mention that he is an alcoholic. He actually did much more than Alan Garcia ever did.

But.... Alan GArcia steals $600M....and then $300M.... does crappy projects that are bnased on smoke and mirrors, but the Peruvian people love the guy (especially when he was younger)! Tiene pinta! Es un Criollo! Tambien es un ratero como los otros!!!!

A lot of people cling to their last name and background because they are not hard working, have a formal education as an engineer or something complex. That's all they have to differentiate themselves. It si very similar to why people from the ghettos in the US have huge gold chains, diamonds, 22" wheels on cars, etc..... It is because they have no bachelor's or master's degrees or anything else going for them so they have to be like that because that is all that they can fall back on to differentiate and show status.

That is why, the real "acomplejados" are the poor guys who look good (have pinta) but no real job, no challenging function in life, lived off of their parent's last name, live in their huge homes (that they did not buy on their own), etc... and like to put down others to make themselves feel better.

I love Peru though .... I get all wound up when I go there and show them how things are done in the US .... you respect me and I will respect you ....If you don't respect me, well ... I will not respect you .....and not back down.

[Josh2U]

You get all wound up, in Peru, and show them how things are done in the US and if they don't like it, you will not respect their way of doing it.
Begs the question. You still got all your teeth intact?

[falconagain]

Wow...... great discussions!!!

Let me give my 2 cents ( <eyes roll> ) .....

1. As for people not speaking Quechua when they leave the Provinces to go to Lima: Why would you want to speak Quechua? How does it help you? Should people from the ghettos of Chicago & New York speak in Ebonics when they become professionals or go to the suburbs? Should the Mexicans(legal or illegal) speak English when they are in the US?

I think one should assimilate to their environment, regardless of where they are at. A hillbilly who goes to the bug city no longer eats road kill such as racoons, squirrels, etc....right? How on earth is Quechua going to help you succeed in Lima, get a high paying job, work in a professional place, go to College where Spanish is spoken, etc....

2. As for Classism .... Yes, it exist today. Peruvians who are well off (de pinta or nombre) think that they are better than most and to feel better about themselves, they do not want the masses to come up and think nof themselves as equivalent.

You can go to College, but only the ones who go to the "good" (i.e. expensive/exclusive) Colleges, will get the jobs. As for Sales/Business, you better have the "look" to succeed in that arena.

In the US, it is the opposite. The engineers and MBAs are Indian (Hindu), Korean, Middle-Eastern, etc... and intelligence, work ethic, and credentials are highly valued. I wonder why the US comes out with so many innovative products. Could it be that the US has the best of the best (of the entire world)?


3. As for the Peruvian (in the US), who feels uncomfortable among illegal Peruvians. Its just another form of classism. The guy wants to feel better than "those" Peruvians .... he may think that they give Peruvians a bad name and wants people to associate Peru with educated people who get citizenship thru legal means.

The Peruvian guy in the US does not want to be thrown in to the bucket of "illegal mexican" and wants to distance himself from a Peruvian waiter, cook, or simpleton.


I love going to Peru because I look 100% Peruvian (mom and dad are Peruvian ... no other ethnicity from other countries) but was born in the US and educated in the US. I see all the crap where some guy (pobre diablo) thinks he is the best (his S&%t does not smell) because of his last name and lives off of the riches from his father, grand father, etc.... They are not Professionals, they can not compare to an American or European (same blue eyes and blonde hair ....but the American and European has cultural awareness and is educated (not formal education ....but knows how to deal with other culturals and is open to different things).

4. Last one .... Education and driving. I have Masters degree and all sorts of paper degrees....went to parochial school (i.e. Catholic grammar school), etc.... When you live in a big city, there is road rage. Period.

Now mix that with Latino blood (Yes, you have to stereo-type) and you will notice that people do not let themselves get pushed around (no se dejan) .... Now, you just have all sorts of testerone and classism thoughts flowing (i.e. ese Indio me va cortar? .... Carajo ....yo tengo mi mechita (benz) y soy blancon....etc)

There has been a lot of changes in the last fifteen years that most foreigners do not notice within
Peru because they always try to compare Peruvian society with the system that they have back home.
The composition of Peruvian society has changed a lot due to the culture of corruption with its maxim
of the survival of the most corrupt instead of the fittest. This has affected Peru in the worst possible
way and created the current social inertia that governs the country and makes it behave in an irrational
way that is quite stupid compared with other countries within the world. Society was dominated by whites
until the end of the 70s but not anymore. What dominates society is the current crop of corrupts and
incompetents that usually obtained their wealth through dubious means.

1970 to 1980 the Military was in charge of Peruvian society and divided the land and wealth of landowners
among the Communists (obviously the top members of the Peruvian Communist party received most of the
land). Consequence Peru lost most of its industry and farming capacity and became dependent on products
from abroad. Peru also lost many of its smartest and productive people, some died in poverty, others escaped to the United States to start over, and the few that were able to hide their money started over
in another business. The majority of landowners were white and all the communists were indian.
This created a justified resentment and hostility from Peruvian whites and criollos toward Peruvian indians.
One simple example, lets just say that your last name was "De la Piedra" in 1972, your family has a 20 acre
farm which is confiscated by the military government of Velasco and given to the huaman, casahualca, and
puman poma families. All your family had everything invested in the farm because they love their country and believe that eventually everything will improve. The current family has 20 people as members, of which 6 are minor children. Suddenly, all of them broke with the loans still pending have to survive in Lima at the
beginning of the crisis created by this supposed fair Military government. By the time that this family reach
the 80s. 4 of the 6 children died. The other 2 were able to finish college but are sick. Of the adults, the 7 oldest were not able to make it due to starvation. The other 7 married and started to rebuild the family
wealth. By the year 1984, the family is back to where they started but they had to experience a level of
mortality similar to the second world war. By the year 2012, this same family has 60 members and they
all have vowed never to forget what happened to them during the 1970s and whos fault is it.

What I have mentioned was a very common story for the average middle class white family in the 70s.
If the same thing happened to your family, how would you react towards Indians? how would any of the
members of that family would react towards any indian that tries to address them. Their hostility and
violence will be totally justified.

1980 to 1984 Belaunde was in charge. The Peruvian communists using the money given to them by
the Peruvian Army financed the MRTA and Sendero Luminoso, besides crippling the productive capacity
of the country in the 70s. Now they crippled the administrative capacity of the government.
Which in turn created more resentment from everybody on the whole coast of Peru towards all the
people in the highlands. It was not a social movement, even MRTA and Sendero Luminoso clarified
that on their mail to government palace. The called themselves terrorist movements at the time.
Half of the highlands were controlled by the terrorists and the government always had a list that
was memorized by the police and members of the armed forces so they could spot the leanings
of every person that came from the highlands.

1985 to 1989 Alan Garcia first presidency. Alan Garcia was actually selected by the APRA because
he was one of the smartest student of his generation. He had finished college by the time he was
16 and had a natural knack to convince people through discourses. Alan Garcia was aware that the
problems of Peru came from the highlands but in order not to alienate the votes he blamed every
problem in Peru to the US and the United Nations. Alan stopped paying the national debt and started
the biggest inflation.

Still in the 80s, even with the publicity nobody was fooled and everyone was aware that the people
in the highlands were the ones who created the problems through terrorism and communism.
A lot of people also died during these times, most of them the productive ones with small, medium sized
and big businesses. Few of them escaped to the US. All of them blamed Alan Garcia and
the Terrorists with good reason.

1990 Alberto Fujimori was selected. The only good thing that he did during his government was
that he started targeting family members from the terrorists. Mothers, children, cousins, brothers;
even if they were not involved, they were immediately disposed of by the death squads. The
approval of the President was extremely high due to this. Still to this day, the terrorist claim
the deaths of many of its relatives, fortunately Fujimoris death squads were quite good and were
only caught in a couple of incidents called Barrio Altos and la Cantuta. The training for all the
anti terrorist operations was provided by our ally the US. Then he screwed everyone by making
his family and some associates the wealthiest in Peru by confiscating many businesses like the
channel 2 from Baruch Ivcher.

2000-2010 We had Toledo, who increased the indian presence in Lima ten fold and also created
many government positions that employed people that were strictly indian or black. Political
Correctness appeared in Peru. Toledo was a good president, but unfortunately he is also responsible
for the Reconciliation Commission where all the terrorist confessed everything that they did in
the last 10 years and how they perceived Peruvians in Lima "they are not human because they are white"
(Peruvian Commission of Reconciliation website). This open confession obviously increased the
resentment of everybody affected by the terrorism in the Peruvian coast.

Now with all the incidents that happened in the last 40 years, property lost, lives lost, wealth lost.
Do you really think that is wrong for a Peruvian from the coast to mistreat somebody from the highlands.
The problem is that Peruvians as a group are passive and have weak memories.

But if something like this happened in the United States, with the same amount of deaths, loss
of wealth and properties, Americans would be killing each other instead of mistreating like Peruvians.

[richorozco]

Falconagain .... you have a good memory & are knowledgeable!!!

Based on what you stated, should all African-Americans & Native Indian-Americans hold grudges against Caucasians (Americans - Blonde Hair & Blue eyes) for the atrocities that happened during the time that the land of the Native American Indians were taken and when the African slaves were bred and the women raped? One might say "women raped"? What do you mean? Well, there are African=American women who are very light-skinned.... their genes have been altered since they were inseminated by the White land owners ....right?

Should all African Americans and Native American Indians hold grudges forever and ever? I do not think so ....

Should the Japanese, Iraqis, Vietnamese, etc.... hate the Americans forever and ever and hold grudges???

As for Velasco, the poor peasants did not ask for the land. The Government (The Republic of the Armed Forces - Communist party that did a coup) was the entity who made the decision to take land away from those 1% of the people who owned all the land.

In fact, the peasants were better off when the Patrones had their haciendas because there was work, school, etc.... When the poor people were given the land, they did not know what to do with it or how to cultivate and sell and create a business.

If you step back and look at it from a neutral standpoint, you will realize that Velasco's Governement made that happen not the Huaman or whatever other families you mentioned.

[augusto ruiz]

I am agree with a couple of things Falconagain said, like peruvian sociaty has been improved a lot in the last 20 years and foreginers can not see it.

In concenrning with Velasco i do belive he did what it was necesary, because it was ridiculuos just the 1 or 2 % of the population owned the all land in Peru. Obviously he did not have a real project to preparate the "indian" population how to manage all the land they got and it is for that almost all our industry collapsed.

But talking about what is happening now i absolutally belive our society is much more equal than before. For example the groups of power are not just white anymore ( wong - japanise , Añaños - Native Peruvian). Even in our tv you can see all kind of faces and colors ( back in the 80´you could see just white faces on tv).

Finally, we do peruvians should speak quechua?. Just let you know guys some advertising were in quechua with spanish sub titule, but do we really need speak quechua? who speak quechua? don´t get me wrong, speak another language is very important but almost all peruvians never speak quechua ( i know, in the Andes they do, but they also speak spanish) and we should speak more english in concerning to be more competitives in the world. It is another countries wich they have thier native languages like norway, sweeden, ireland, wales, US, swiss etc but is just small % of population who speak that and it does not mean they dont like their contries.

Thanks guys for all your coments they are very interesting.
En peru somos Mestizos we must undestnad that to stop conflicts.

Un abrazo.

[chi chi]

It is another countries wich they have thier native languages like norway, sweeden, ireland, wales, US, swiss etc but is just small % of population who speak that and it does not mean they dont like their contries.

In Ireland, Irish is teached at school and most Irish can speak some Irish but they don't use it in daily life. It's mostly spoken by people in the countryside. I was used to frequent a bar in my neigboorhood. Somewhere in Athenry and the only language that I heard people speak in the bar was Irish.

I Wales, Welch is spoken. (I don't know why they have so many W)

[tomsax]

I think the answer to the original post is that classism is very often not recognised as problem or even as a something that exists as a concept. Classism is the is prejudice or discrimination on the basis of social class. Many Peruvians would say they make vaiid judgements on the basis of peoples backgrounds and social class all the time and that they are quite right to do so. They just don't see it as a problem! They don't recognise it as prejudice just as someone who makes judgements on the basis of someone's race/gender often does not see themselves as racist/sexist. The more entrenched classism is, the less it is seen as a problem - by definintion!

[falconagain]

I think the answer to the original post is that classism is very often not recognised as problem or even as a something that exists as a concept. Classism is the is prejudice or discrimination on the basis of social class. Many Peruvians would say they make vaiid judgements on the basis of peoples backgrounds and social class all the time and that they are quite right to do so. They just don't see it as a problem! They don't recognise it as prejudice just as someone who makes judgements on the basis of someone's race/gender often does not see themselves as racist/sexist. The more entrenched classism is, the less it is seen as a problem - by definintion!

Still I think that there is no more classism here in Peru than in the United States. The Government is
the biggest employer on a national level and its administration is in charge of People from everywhere
in the country. Take a look of the judges, there would be classism if the majority of them were of european
descent but it does not work like that. One can take a look at the current Peruvian congress which
is a mix of everything. Even new small businesses and medium sized businesses have all kinds of
people at the top. We do not have bathrooms for whites or non whites. It is the same dirty, half
falling apart bathroom for everybody with an admission of 1 sol. Where are the so called barriers
or examples of people being mistreated due to classism??? They simply do not exist anymore.
If two sectors of the population do not want to talk or see each other due to a violent conflict that
happened less than 20 years ago. It is not classism. And even in that case Americans would have
no place to complain about as it was the American government who provided the advisors and trainers
on how to deal with the terrorists and how to educate the population to perceive.
An American talking about classism and discrimination in Peru after his own government advised
how to deal with all the communists for several decades is the equivalent of a Crocodile crying
while eating a free ceviche.

[Bobby]

It's very restrictive to base classism on an unique ethnic criterion. Besides the western concept of classims based on a social and economical levels keep in mind the complex social organization of the Andean society(ies) where a type of classism existed and still exists to some extent: I am thinking of "anansaya" and "urinsaya" . These categories interact in today's "modernity" making Peruvian society quite complex to understand.

[falconagain]

Falconagain .... you have a good memory & are knowledgeable!!!

Based on what you stated, should all African-Americans & Native Indian-Americans hold grudges against Caucasians (Americans - Blonde Hair & Blue eyes) for the atrocities that happened during the time that the land of the Native American Indians were taken and when the African slaves were bred and the women raped? One might say "women raped"? What do you mean? Well, there are African=American women who are very light-skinned.... their genes have been altered since they were inseminated by the White land owners ....right?

Should all African Americans and Native American Indians hold grudges forever and ever? I do not think so ....

Should the Japanese, Iraqis, Vietnamese, etc.... hate the Americans forever and ever and hold grudges???

As for Velasco, the poor peasants did not ask for the land. The Government (The Republic of the Armed Forces - Communist party that did a coup) was the entity who made the decision to take land away from those 1% of the people who owned all the land.

In fact, the peasants were better off when the Patrones had their haciendas because there was work, school, etc.... When the poor people were given the land, they did not know what to do with it or how to cultivate and sell and create a business.

If you step back and look at it from a neutral standpoint, you will realize that Velasco's Governement made that happen not the Huaman or whatever other families you mentioned.

In your first paragraph you talk about incidents that happened 100 years or more in the past. The clash
between Peruvian from the Andes and Peruvians from the coast happened in the last 40 years. There
is dangerous incidents that happened in the last fifteen years and there is worse things that happened
within the last 10 years.

One simple example, one of the operational bosses from a terrorist group was given a pardon
based on the reconciliation movement (without dropping any charges), together with the pardon,
this terrorist also received over $50,000 dollars as a compensation for is time in jail.
This is the modern equivalent of having Osama in Jail in the US and Obama granting him a pardon
together with a monetary compensation plus admitting that the acts of the terrorists were the
fault of the American government. Do you really think that the people who lost relatives are
going to be happy about this ???

Besides what you mention, not everything is pink colored in the US, there is still some African
Americans and Indian Americans that hold a grudge, some of them with a justified reason.

In regards to your statement "As for Velasco, the poor peasants did not ask for the land."
Do you really think that any poor peasant received any land at that time. Then you do not
understand how communism works, the Peruvian families that were party leaders, the administration
of the communist party were the ones that received all the land. As in every party,
no poor person received anything only the ones that had power got land.

"If you step back and look at it from a neutral standpoint, you will realize that Velasco's Governement made that happen not the Huaman or whatever other families you mentioned." Not true either, the Velasco
Government representatives and the communist party representatives had weekly meetings where
agreements were reached by members of the families involved who were administrators of the
communist party and the representatives of Velasco. The assignation of land was well planned
with the direct knowledge of the families who received each piece of land.

It is very easy to talk about an unknown wealthy 1%, and it even sounds fair that they were separated
from their wealth when you do not know them. But the reality is that they were the ones who produced
value within the Peruvian economy, Business properly run is the one that feeds whole countries.
Business owners are the livelihood of a country and a government cannot go around wasting is most
valuable resource because its leaders are inept, with bad or good intentions.

One simple example, in the 1970s one Peruvian Entrepreneur was the owner of 15% of the whole
Peruvian economy, he defied on the public media the government of Velasco to a bet. He said that
within one year his private companies were going to produce as much wealth as the rest of the
goverment together with the rest of the companies that supported communism. Velasco took
the bet. But his advisors did not believe that he could win so they killed the entrepreneur
to avoid playing this bet. Which is the reason why so many economic sectors in Peru are
involved or controlled by the government. Because no private enterprise is allowed to succeed
and make people feel proud and independent due to their work. People have the perception
that they need the government for everything.

[chi chi]

The gap between rich and poor is growing rapidly in Peru.

[tomsax]

Still I think that there is no more classism here in Peru than in the United States.

I'm not sure as I'm not so familiar with how people think in the States, but anyway, who cares? Do you think it's the benchmark we should all measure against?

I agree there is less classism in Peru then there used to be, and this is a good thing. But, I am talking about how people think rather than what the government does. In terms of public policy there is little classism in Peru but there is an abundance of it when you listen to people talk and infer how Peruvians think.

There is classism all over the world but the truth is that in Peru it is very blatent and commonplace. It is so accepted that it is not seen as an -ism. Calling it an -ism classifies it as a problem which people can't see the reason for. That's the point I'm making.

We need to focus on the actual meaning of classism. It is prejudice or discrimination on the basis of social class. If people make judgements on people with no other information other that inferred from there social class or decide they don't like people from a certain social background that is classism according to the definition. It really is that simple.

Whether you think it is that bad a thing or not is another issue but that is what it means.

[falconagain]

We need to focus on the actual meaning of classism. It is prejudice or discrimination on the basis of social class. If people make judgements on people with no other information other that inferred from there social class or decide they don't like people from a certain social background that is classism according to the definition. It really is that simple.

Whether you think it is that bad a thing or not is another issue but that is what it means.

My problem is when and where does this so called classism happens. Many of the actions
that people called as classism are a simply violent retaliation of events that happened within
the last 40 years.

I will make on simple example, a family from Apurimac moves to an address in San Isidro, the
family net worth is 4 million dollars. They buy a 3 million house in the area. The family consists
off 6 children, Mom, Dad. 3 cousins, and the Grandparents. Nobody in the area talks to them
or wants to be seen with them. For people with foreign eyes from any country this is a form
of classism. But the truth is that everybody in Peru knows that the majority of people from
Apurimac are currently drug dealers and that there is specific laws that link your personal
police records with the drug dealers just because you are seen together with them.

Now, Peru has been a drug producer for years, but as you know the country is not that
big, everybody knows who makes money and from what. Drug dealers are a big segment
of the population that is quite visible. At the same time a good amount of people from
the highlands dedicate themselves to this line of work. While people cannot say that
is everybody. Things are pretty obvious when their wealth is exorbitant by Peruvian standards.

Many incidents like this happen everyday. People from abroad assume one thing,

but the reality is another.

[bobg]

FALCONAAGAIN,
I AM AN AMERICAN MARRIED TO A PERUVIAN I ENJOY YOUR COMMENTS YOU SEEM TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE SUBJECT, AND KNOW HOW TO PUT IT ON PAPER. i AGREE WITH THE POINTS YOU MAKE, THERE HAS BEEN CLASS-ISM SENSE ADAM AND EVE THERE HAS TO BE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF IT FOR A SOCIETY TO EXIST, COMMUNISM WE KNOW DOESN'T WORK AS A SO CALLED CLASSLESS SOCIETY. I DON'T THINK THERE COULD BE ONE. THERE A LEADERS, AND THE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO, YOU CAN RISE TO WHAT EVER YOU ASPIRE TO BE . THANKS YOU FOR YOUR INSIGHTS....

[tomsax]

But the truth is that everybody in Peru knows that the majority of people from
Apurimac are currently drug dealers

We both know this is complete nonsense. Or at least I assume you do. To think otherwise would be pretty insulting to you! I think you need to ask yourself why you feel the need to make such statements to defend your point of view.

If you really think like this then obviously it is classist. Whether that is a problem is another question, as I mentioned above. Personally, I think it is.

[augusto ruiz]

[quote="chi chi"][
In Ireland, Irish is teached at school and most Irish can speak some Irish but they don't use it in daily life. It's mostly spoken by people in the countryside. I was used to frequent a bar in my neigboorhood. Somewhere in Athenry and the only language that I heard people speak in the bar was Irish.

Yeah ok i´ve never been in ireland (unfortunally but one day i will) but what my friends from there told me is what they never used it (at least the youngest ones), or for example in swiss over there the main languages are german, french and italian but also they have an "original" swiss language just a very small of population speak and it could be a similar case to Peru.
Anyway, talking about the reality of Peru it could me almost impossible start teaching quechua in all the conuntry. Firstly cos just some parts in Peru they speak it and for example in all the jungle of Peru nobody knows quechua (i used to live in Iquitos and never hear anyone even talk about quechua). Secondly, Peru is a poor country and change all our education sistem could be IMPOSSIBLE.

But i dont wanna miss the topic

If you wanna have some new ideas about classism in Peru i highly recomend the book : Un Mundo para Julius - A World for Julius by Alfredo Brecy Echenique. Its a very interesting book about how high class in Peru used to see social things here.

[falconagain]

Cocaine production takes place in the poorest (lowest income per capita) department or
regions in the highlands. Once the production starts to take hold, ends up representing
at least 70% of the whole economy in that province or department. In places like Apurimac
that have a small population (350,000 people) and low salaries, Cocaine production became
90% to 95% of the economy. The majority of every town in there works as part of the production
capacity. 1 in 10 high school kids become addicts because is cheaply sold in schools. Meaning that
up to a point even some of the poorest can afford the drug. And homeless kids are hired to farm,
carry chemicals or hide stock in order to avoid the police. With the millions of dollars that
the drug industry provides very few people keep themselves honest and fewer (rare as dodos)
are able to get ahead and improve their lives without involving themselves in the shady business.

Same thing happens in the other departments that are centers of drug production. Any police
officer will tell you that is true. And that actually avoiding people from such places is an exercise
in caution and common sense without any classism or discrimination.

I only listed on department, there is at least 10 with the same kind of problem.

[tomsax]

Cocaine production takes place in the poorest (lowest income per capita) department or
regions in the highlands. Once the production starts to take hold, ends up representing
at least 70% of the whole economy in that province or department. In places like Apurimac
that have a small population (350,000 people) and low salaries, Cocaine production became
90% to 95% of the economy. The majority of every town in there works as part of the production
capacity. 1 in 10 high school kids become addicts because is cheaply sold in schools. Meaning that
up to a point even some of the poorest can afford the drug. And homeless kids are hired to farm,
carry chemicals or hide stock in order to avoid the police. With the millions of dollars that
the drug industry provides very few people keep themselves honest and fewer (rare as dodos)
are able to get ahead and improve their lives without involving themselves in the shady business.

Same thing happens in the other departments that are centers of drug production. Any police
officer will tell you that is true. And that actually avoiding people from such places is an exercise
in caution and common sense without any classism or discrimination.

I only listed on department, there is at least 10 with the same kind of problem.

I'm curious as to where you get this information about Apurimac from? Have you ever been there? Has anyone actually told you this? What do you base these ideas on? Please don't tell me that all Peruvians know this or that the police would confirm what you say as I know Peru well enough to know this is not the case. Do you know anywhing about Apurimac's geography or major cities?

[augusto ruiz]

Leave you guys the name of a very good book.

It have to see how high class used to see Lima back in the 60´i think you will enjoy it.

Un mundo para Julius / A World for Julius by Alfredo Bryce Echenique

Un abrazo.

[falconagain]

Cocaine production takes place in the poorest (lowest income per capita) department or
regions in the highlands. Once the production starts to take hold, ends up representing
at least 70% of the whole economy in that province or department. In places like Apurimac
that have a small population (350,000 people) and low salaries, Cocaine production became
90% to 95% of the economy. The majority of every town in there works as part of the production
capacity. 1 in 10 high school kids become addicts because is cheaply sold in schools. Meaning that
up to a point even some of the poorest can afford the drug. And homeless kids are hired to farm,
carry chemicals or hide stock in order to avoid the police. With the millions of dollars that
the drug industry provides very few people keep themselves honest and fewer (rare as dodos)
are able to get ahead and improve their lives without involving themselves in the shady business.

Same thing happens in the other departments that are centers of drug production. Any police
officer will tell you that is true. And that actually avoiding people from such places is an exercise
in caution and common sense without any classism or discrimination.

I only listed on department, there is at least 10 with the same kind of problem.

I'm curious as to where you get this information about Apurimac from? Have you ever been there? Has anyone actually told you this? What do you base these ideas on? Please don't tell me that all Peruvians know this or that the police would confirm what you say as I know Peru well enough to know this is not the case. Do you know anywhing about Apurimac's geography or major cities?

Call the dirandro (Peruvian DEA) and they will be nice enough to confirm you everything.

[bobg]

TOM, DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE REGINE ISN'T ASSOCIATED WITH COCAINE ? THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY FROM IT ? ME THINKS NOT, YOU SEE THE PICTS OF THEM MAKING THE PRODUCT IN Apurimac. THEY MAKE MONEY TRANSPORTING IT , MOST OF THEIR INCOME IS FROM COCAINE, SORRY YOU ARE WRONG ! FALCONAGAIN IS RIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[falconagain]

According to this report from the Peruvian non profit Cedro (Titled: The problem of Drugs
in Peru, Dated June 2005). which bases its data on reports from the American and Peruvian
governments.
http://www.opd.gob.pe/cdoc/_cdocumentac ... _1_y_2.pdf

Page 14, shows the increase of cultivated Area in Apurimac the department.
Page 18, says that on the year 2000, Apurimac the deparment started to cultivate
amapola.

If you do a search for "coca apurimac" you are going to get lots of reports like this. But the table on page 14 is refering to valleys not departmetns. Look at the names of the other areas.. "Alto Huallago", etc. These are not departments but valleys.

Look at the map on page 15 and it is clarified completely. The Cuenca Cocalero del Apurimac is quite clearly shown in Ayachucho/Cusco/Junin with no cuencas cocaleros in Apurimac. I concede yes according to the map there is a very small area of selva alta were coca could in therory be grown but it is tiny (look at the map). Almost all of Apurimac is above 2500m and all your reports only refer to coca production below this altitude.

If you have managed to scour the internet and have found some other reports that have also confused the department and the valley/river, well done. If you have spent any time getting to know Apurimac properly you would know better.

Where are your family from? What altitude is it?

Which is why I posted one of the many reports that the Peruvian congress have, which define
Apurimac the department as producer of 18% of cocaine in Peru. The report also specifies when
the cultivation started 1970s referring to the department.

[alan]

This discussion went off topic, so a new thread has been created called: Coca. Where it is and isn´t cultivated.

Want to talk about coca, go there:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21972

Want to talk about classism in Peru, stay here.

[tomsax]

Good idea to split it Alan.

Just like to comment responding to bobg's posts.

The issue is classism which is defined as being prejudiced towards certain people due to thier percieved class.

I agree there will always be people of different incomes and wealth. Being anti classism doesn't make someone pro communist. For me communism is just another classist ideology.

People should be judged on individual merit, values and morality not on their background or stereotypical assessments of where they are from, what social group they belong to and therefore what they 'must' be like. That is the issue here not whether we have to live under a new Soviet Union.

In Peru people have very strong stereotypes of what different groups of people are like and people will make negative judgements on these often without challenge. It's one of things I like least about the country although there are many other thing I like very much.

This is often labelled political correctness but this is just another label which when you get down to it is pretty meaningless and irrelevant

[falconagain]

Good idea to split it Alan.

Just like to comment responding to bobg's posts.

The issue is classism which is defined as being prejudiced towards certain people due to thier percieved class.

I agree there will always be people of different incomes and wealth. Being anti classism doesn't make someone pro communist. For me communism is just another classist ideology.

People should be judged on individual merit, values and morality not on their background or stereotypical assessments of where they are from, what social group they belong to and therefore what they 'must' be like. That is the issue here not whether we have to live under a new Soviet Union.

In Peru people have very strong stereotypes of what different groups of people are like and people will make negative judgements on these often without challenge. It's one of things I like least about the country although there are many other thing I like very much.

This is often labelled political correctness but this is just another label which when you get down to it is pretty meaningless and irrelevant

But many Peruvians in the highlands have a Maoist Communist education from college, which
started in the 60s and 70s. One of the teachings of this education is start a war against
capitalism using the classism issue as a tool to advance their cause.

[minos]

I like this topic, there is enough contribution and to learn, and although I am relatively new to this forum, I must say I just need to go to youtube and see how insulting Spanish, Mexican, Peruvian, Argentine, Chilean, etc. when they touch the topic classism and racism, and then it is obvious that Peruvians do not touch these issues in meetings for fear of litigation that can inspire. There may be a black, serrano a cholo, a gringo. Controlling emotions is important to us and must split hairs, not to hurt.Great topic!

[tomsax]

In Apurimac I met some people still supporters of Sendero but very few. Most people were very anti and this was one of the reasons for Fujimori's support in the area due to perception that he'd defeated them.

Even the few sympathisers I found weren't very threatening being supporters in theory but that was it.

The people there suffered terribly in the 80 and early 90s. Far more than people in Lima. People were threatened, beaten and executed by Sendero. Then the army and police would come in, some of them thinking like you that they must be communist sympathisers and threatening, beating and executing again.

I was in Apurimac when Sendero came to a local village nearby. This was in the 2002 when they had long left the areas. The villagers were rounded up and told that they had a new policy now, not using violence but persuasion but with the same ends etc. The people listened, didn't believe it and then when they were gone, carried on as exactly as before.

I did meet quite a few people who praised Sendero for solving the problem of cattle theft. Apparently any accused where quickly executed with little need for proof. When I was there, the local police were seen of little use in dealing with this problem so there was nostalgia for that. But I never heard anything from anyone about class war, or overthowing capitalism. Sure, perhaps they were being polite.

I've met pleny of MRTA and Sendero supporters in Lima, a lot of them from the middle and upper classes. So what? People believe all sorts of stupid stuff all over the place.

I also think you are overplaying the communist education in schools as well. I never came across any of that and I did visit some schools and talked to a lot of teachers. With the children I met they certainly hadn't made much progress on promoting class warfare or the defeat of capitalism.

I will now await the expectged accusation that they all pulled the wool over my eyes and that they were sinisterly plotting behind my back.

Anyway, even if there was that education going on the population were 90% brainwashed I still wouldn't assume the worst from an individual from there just because of where they were from.

[bobg]

"The people there suffered terribly in the 80 and early 90s. Far more than people in Lima"

TOM HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THAT ? PEOPLE SUFFERED TERRIBLY IN LIMA JUST AS THEY DID THERE, THERE WERE BOMBINGS, KILLING MANY PEOPLE, PEOPLE THAT HAD NO IDEA WHEN OR WHERE THE NEXT ATTACK WOULD COME FROM, WINDOWS EXPLODING OUT ON PEOPLE INDISCRIMINATELY WALKING DOWN A SIDE WALK. NO POWER , NO WATER, BECAUSE OF BOMBS ! THESE CITIZENS ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT , AS THE PEOPLE YOU TALK ABOUT ! AND THEY WERE JUST AS TERRIFIED ......................