fanning wrote:Please remember the mother of the 'lost' Americans who only would accept their missing son being found ( reported as found by Peruvian military ) if it was confirmed by 'American' eyes.. ( Peruvian eyes would not be trustworthy enough )
Talking of classism.
kpw wrote:How do you define "classism"?
In Peru, there is 2 things that would differentiate classes, I would think: education and economic status.
This has lead to a white social class, that went to european/american schools in Lima, and even had the chance to study abroad. These white social class were there since the conquista (these were the same spanish that wanted to get independence from the spanish kings).
Generalizing:
- Being well educated, meant having money. This is not the case in the developed world.
- Having no money, meant being badly educated. This is not the case in the developed world.
So how does education affect: the way they talk and what you can talk, hygiene, how they drive and respect others. People one would prefer themselves and their children avoiding.
Due to Peru's boom, lately we see all kinds of Peruvians that have money but their education is still atrocious (driving their huge SUVs). Hopefully they will soon value the meaning of an education and respect for one another.
I am generalizing here, but I think there is some truth.
falconagain wrote:I do not think that there is classism anymore. Peru currently has the highest number of Universities in proportion ....
The main problem is not the classism but the culture of corruption....
falconagain wrote:I do not think that there is classism anymore. Peru currently has the highest number of Universities in proportion ....
The main problem is not the classism but the culture of corruption....
Bobby wrote:
1. Classism in Peru not only refers to socioeconomics status but also to ethnicity and way of life. IMHO the 1993 Constitution of Peru does establish a legal discrimination between "normal citizens" and "comunidades campesinas/indigenas".
kpw wrote:falconagain wrote:I do not think that there is classism anymore. Peru currently has the highest number of Universities in proportion ....
The main problem is not the classism but the culture of corruption....
Unfortunately the level of education provided by the vast majority of universities (not all of them) is terrible. That is why most of them are not accredited in any way. Most of the people that will leave these universities will still have jobs that pay poorly. Many of these universities should be called colleges, and not many offer doctorate degrees.
Again a problem of education, not being educated feeds corruption...
There is a problem of classism. But it is goes both ways, the poor/uneducated also have an issue with the rich/educated.
This is changing anyway compared to how it was 30 years ago.Bobby wrote:
1. Classism in Peru not only refers to socioeconomics status but also to ethnicity and way of life. IMHO the 1993 Constitution of Peru does establish a legal discrimination between "normal citizens" and "comunidades campesinas/indigenas".
The campesinos that move to Lima are also "acomplejados" as many of them decide to stop speaking their mother tongue quechua.
Only 4.5% of Lima's population has been purely here for 3 generations (self, father, grandfather), the rest has been immigration from the countryside. I would expect more Quechua to be heard in the streets with this ratio.
falconagain wrote:
The guerrilla movements were not based on classism but on plain terrorism and antiamericanism.
"In the near past classism issues gave birth to the Apra and to Mariategui's ideas which influences got way beyond the borders of the Peru."
Have you even read Mariategui, his rethoric is completely backward and pro communist. If you read his main book, according to him Peruvians are a form of soft angels ready to be abused by the evi powers of American foreign intervention. Mariategui is good for fairy tales. If you want to read about the real Peru
you should pick up Jose Maria Arguedas. He says the truth at least. Mariategui has a paternalistic view of Peruvian society that forgives its built in corruption which is why he became popular.
And APRA, the party founded by a guy that avoided work like a plague all his life. They were the laughing
stock of all other parties for years. When the guy finally got a job as a head of congress he died within a
year because he never worked seriously one day on his life. Haya de la Torre. The patron of lazy Peruvians.
Bobby wrote:falconagain wrote:
The guerrilla movements were not based on classism but on plain terrorism and antiamericanism.
"In the near past classism issues gave birth to the Apra and to Mariategui's ideas which influences got way beyond the borders of the Peru."
Have you even read Mariategui, his rethoric is completely backward and pro communist. If you read his main book, according to him Peruvians are a form of soft angels ready to be abused by the evi powers of American foreign intervention. Mariategui is good for fairy tales. If you want to read about the real Peru
you should pick up Jose Maria Arguedas. He says the truth at least. Mariategui has a paternalistic view of Peruvian society that forgives its built in corruption which is why he became popular.
And APRA, the party founded by a guy that avoided work like a plague all his life. They were the laughing
stock of all other parties for years. When the guy finally got a job as a head of congress he died within a
year because he never worked seriously one day on his life. Haya de la Torre. The patron of lazy Peruvians.
Fist of all you miss the whole point of the OP. It's about if there is a classism issue in Peru and why people seem not to talk about it. It isn't about what you erroneously say about Mariategui, guerrillas movement, or the Apra. I only mentionned these facts of Peruvian History to point out that classism has been present in Peru since the XXth century.
Like me you probably don't like the guerrillas movements, or Apra, but please if you don't master your history avoid saying non sense and silly things. It doens't add any positive contribution to the thread. Instead I invite you to read "la ilusion archaïca" from MVL. You will learn, among many things, that Arguedas creative work (not his scientific one) was all but an ideal vision on the Andes life style. Nothing much to do with reality. Still I find Rios Profundos an amazing novel.
augusto ruiz wrote:To understand Peruvian society we must first take account of where they come from their main roots. In my opinion the Peruvian society basically consists of six sources: Chinese, Japanese, Italian, Spanish, African and clear the Inca. All this is now part of what is the Peruvian society (there are other cultures but with much less influence in our society).
Before the age of 60´s Peru was basically governed by a group of families who decide everything, and they were basically families with European background, white families. So, in Peru whiteness was associated with economic power and a high social class. That is why until now when we talking about classism in Peru also inevitably relate the ethnic group they belong to, and often that go to racial discussions, where white is synonymous of high class, black are poor , Chinese were slaves and Incas did not have nothing. Nowadays, those stereotypes has been changed a lot and our society is more equal, but still subsystem some stereotypes.
Actually the distribution of power and economic rights are more balance than before. We can see that for example in the pass with Fujimori who has Japanese background and Toledo with is a native Peruvian background.
Currently, and after many years of discussions and suffering we are building a single idea of what mean be a Peruvian. It is what we say now we are ´Mestizo´. And that´s mean for me forget your color skin and be part of one nation rather than six in one.
So I think people in Peru do not like to talk about classism because it leads to racism and ethnic discussions, and that cost us a lot of hard work and pain to leave behind.
Bueno, cuidense y suerte.
richorozco wrote:Wow...... great discussions!!!
Let me give my 2 cents ( <eyes roll> ) .....
1. As for people not speaking Quechua when they leave the Provinces to go to Lima: Why would you want to speak Quechua? How does it help you? Should people from the ghettos of Chicago & New York speak in Ebonics when they become professionals or go to the suburbs? Should the Mexicans(legal or illegal) speak English when they are in the US?
I think one should assimilate to their environment, regardless of where they are at. A hillbilly who goes to the bug city no longer eats road kill such as racoons, squirrels, etc....right? How on earth is Quechua going to help you succeed in Lima, get a high paying job, work in a professional place, go to College where Spanish is spoken, etc....
2. As for Classism .... Yes, it exist today. Peruvians who are well off (de pinta or nombre) think that they are better than most and to feel better about themselves, they do not want the masses to come up and think nof themselves as equivalent.
You can go to College, but only the ones who go to the "good" (i.e. expensive/exclusive) Colleges, will get the jobs. As for Sales/Business, you better have the "look" to succeed in that arena.
In the US, it is the opposite. The engineers and MBAs are Indian (Hindu), Korean, Middle-Eastern, etc... and intelligence, work ethic, and credentials are highly valued. I wonder why the US comes out with so many innovative products. Could it be that the US has the best of the best (of the entire world)?
3. As for the Peruvian (in the US), who feels uncomfortable among illegal Peruvians. Its just another form of classism. The guy wants to feel better than "those" Peruvians .... he may think that they give Peruvians a bad name and wants people to associate Peru with educated people who get citizenship thru legal means.
The Peruvian guy in the US does not want to be thrown in to the bucket of "illegal mexican" and wants to distance himself from a Peruvian waiter, cook, or simpleton.
I love going to Peru because I look 100% Peruvian (mom and dad are Peruvian ... no other ethnicity from other countries) but was born in the US and educated in the US. I see all the crap where some guy (pobre diablo) thinks he is the best (his S&%t does not smell) because of his last name and lives off of the riches from his father, grand father, etc.... They are not Professionals, they can not compare to an American or European (same blue eyes and blonde hair ....but the American and European has cultural awareness and is educated (not formal education ....but knows how to deal with other culturals and is open to different things).
4. Last one .... Education and driving. I have Masters degree and all sorts of paper degrees....went to parochial school (i.e. Catholic grammar school), etc.... When you live in a big city, there is road rage. Period.
Now mix that with Latino blood (Yes, you have to stereo-type) and you will notice that people do not let themselves get pushed around (no se dejan) .... Now, you just have all sorts of testerone and classism thoughts flowing (i.e. ese Indio me va cortar? .... Carajo ....yo tengo mi mechita (benz) y soy blancon....etc)
augusto ruiz wrote: It is another countries wich they have thier native languages like norway, sweeden, ireland, wales, US, swiss etc but is just small % of population who speak that and it does not mean they dont like their contries.
tomsax wrote:I think the answer to the original post is that classism is very often not recognised as problem or even as a something that exists as a concept. Classism is the is prejudice or discrimination on the basis of social class. Many Peruvians would say they make vaiid judgements on the basis of peoples backgrounds and social class all the time and that they are quite right to do so. They just don't see it as a problem! They don't recognise it as prejudice just as someone who makes judgements on the basis of someone's race/gender often does not see themselves as racist/sexist. The more entrenched classism is, the less it is seen as a problem - by definintion!
richorozco wrote:Falconagain .... you have a good memory & are knowledgeable!!!
Based on what you stated, should all African-Americans & Native Indian-Americans hold grudges against Caucasians (Americans - Blonde Hair & Blue eyes) for the atrocities that happened during the time that the land of the Native American Indians were taken and when the African slaves were bred and the women raped? One might say "women raped"? What do you mean? Well, there are African=American women who are very light-skinned.... their genes have been altered since they were inseminated by the White land owners ....right?
Should all African Americans and Native American Indians hold grudges forever and ever? I do not think so ....
Should the Japanese, Iraqis, Vietnamese, etc.... hate the Americans forever and ever and hold grudges???
As for Velasco, the poor peasants did not ask for the land. The Government (The Republic of the Armed Forces - Communist party that did a coup) was the entity who made the decision to take land away from those 1% of the people who owned all the land.
In fact, the peasants were better off when the Patrones had their haciendas because there was work, school, etc.... When the poor people were given the land, they did not know what to do with it or how to cultivate and sell and create a business.
If you step back and look at it from a neutral standpoint, you will realize that Velasco's Governement made that happen not the Huaman or whatever other families you mentioned.
falconagain wrote:
Still I think that there is no more classism here in Peru than in the United States.
tomsax wrote:falconagain wrote:
We need to focus on the actual meaning of classism. It is prejudice or discrimination on the basis of social class. If people make judgements on people with no other information other that inferred from there social class or decide they don't like people from a certain social background that is classism according to the definition. It really is that simple.
Whether you think it is that bad a thing or not is another issue but that is what it means.
falconagain wrote:
But the truth is that everybody in Peru knows that the majority of people from
Apurimac are currently drug dealers
falconagain wrote:Cocaine production takes place in the poorest (lowest income per capita) department or
regions in the highlands. Once the production starts to take hold, ends up representing
at least 70% of the whole economy in that province or department. In places like Apurimac
that have a small population (350,000 people) and low salaries, Cocaine production became
90% to 95% of the economy. The majority of every town in there works as part of the production
capacity. 1 in 10 high school kids become addicts because is cheaply sold in schools. Meaning that
up to a point even some of the poorest can afford the drug. And homeless kids are hired to farm,
carry chemicals or hide stock in order to avoid the police. With the millions of dollars that
the drug industry provides very few people keep themselves honest and fewer (rare as dodos)
are able to get ahead and improve their lives without involving themselves in the shady business.
Same thing happens in the other departments that are centers of drug production. Any police
officer will tell you that is true. And that actually avoiding people from such places is an exercise
in caution and common sense without any classism or discrimination.
I only listed on department, there is at least 10 with the same kind of problem.
tomsax wrote:falconagain wrote:Cocaine production takes place in the poorest (lowest income per capita) department or
regions in the highlands. Once the production starts to take hold, ends up representing
at least 70% of the whole economy in that province or department. In places like Apurimac
that have a small population (350,000 people) and low salaries, Cocaine production became
90% to 95% of the economy. The majority of every town in there works as part of the production
capacity. 1 in 10 high school kids become addicts because is cheaply sold in schools. Meaning that
up to a point even some of the poorest can afford the drug. And homeless kids are hired to farm,
carry chemicals or hide stock in order to avoid the police. With the millions of dollars that
the drug industry provides very few people keep themselves honest and fewer (rare as dodos)
are able to get ahead and improve their lives without involving themselves in the shady business.
Same thing happens in the other departments that are centers of drug production. Any police
officer will tell you that is true. And that actually avoiding people from such places is an exercise
in caution and common sense without any classism or discrimination.
I only listed on department, there is at least 10 with the same kind of problem.
I'm curious as to where you get this information about Apurimac from? Have you ever been there? Has anyone actually told you this? What do you base these ideas on? Please don't tell me that all Peruvians know this or that the police would confirm what you say as I know Peru well enough to know this is not the case. Do you know anywhing about Apurimac's geography or major cities?
tomsax wrote:falconagain wrote:According to this report from the Peruvian non profit Cedro (Titled: The problem of Drugs
in Peru, Dated June 2005). which bases its data on reports from the American and Peruvian
governments.
http://www.opd.gob.pe/cdoc/_cdocumentac ... _1_y_2.pdf
Page 14, shows the increase of cultivated Area in Apurimac the department.
Page 18, says that on the year 2000, Apurimac the deparment started to cultivate
amapola.
If you do a search for "coca apurimac" you are going to get lots of reports like this. But the table on page 14 is refering to valleys not departmetns. Look at the names of the other areas.. "Alto Huallago", etc. These are not departments but valleys.
Look at the map on page 15 and it is clarified completely. The Cuenca Cocalero del Apurimac is quite clearly shown in Ayachucho/Cusco/Junin with no cuencas cocaleros in Apurimac. I concede yes according to the map there is a very small area of selva alta were coca could in therory be grown but it is tiny (look at the map). Almost all of Apurimac is above 2500m and all your reports only refer to coca production below this altitude.
If you have managed to scour the internet and have found some other reports that have also confused the department and the valley/river, well done. If you have spent any time getting to know Apurimac properly you would know better.
Where are your family from? What altitude is it?
tomsax wrote:Good idea to split it Alan.
Just like to comment responding to bobg's posts.
The issue is classism which is defined as being prejudiced towards certain people due to thier percieved class.
I agree there will always be people of different incomes and wealth. Being anti classism doesn't make someone pro communist. For me communism is just another classist ideology.
People should be judged on individual merit, values and morality not on their background or stereotypical assessments of where they are from, what social group they belong to and therefore what they 'must' be like. That is the issue here not whether we have to live under a new Soviet Union.
In Peru people have very strong stereotypes of what different groups of people are like and people will make negative judgements on these often without challenge. It's one of things I like least about the country although there are many other thing I like very much.
This is often labelled political correctness but this is just another label which when you get down to it is pretty meaningless and irrelevant