CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

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mulcahen
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CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby mulcahen » Thu May 20, 2010 10:09 am

Hi. With carnet you cannot be out of country for 183 days in the last 12months. Its looking likely that I will go over this in the next year which would then stop me getting permanent residency( nationality?)at the completion of 2 years.Has anyone ever succesfullygot around this? officially or unofficially??.thanks


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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby sunflower » Thu May 20, 2010 12:56 pm

More and more often people here are asking how things can be done the "illegal" way by paying someone a nice bribe to have the law bended as they need it. Reading it makes me really mad.

Would you do this in your home country????

The Peruvian law is quite clear. You really want to live here, please follow the rules and don't support this kind of stuff. In the long term it's not good for you and especially not for Peru.

Eva
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby scott » Thu May 20, 2010 1:16 pm

Well said Eva :)
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby american_in_lima » Thu May 20, 2010 6:38 pm

Besides being completely illegal and in my opinion, immoral, the risk is not worth it. Can you imagine that if they actually find out 5 years later that you obtained your citizenship illegally? Not a smart way to play your cards in my opinion. I am all about thinking outside the box, but I agree with Eva and Scott.

Have some respect for Peru and do things the right way.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby mulcahen » Fri May 21, 2010 12:09 pm

If you read the question I actually asked officially or unofficially.

Yes I agree bribing your way around things is not ideal. However there are a lot of rules that have their little loopholes, their little exceptions both in Peru and abroad.

The old days of most foreigners border hopping every so often to stay in the country longer than technically they were meant to. Getting a good accountant to help you avoid paying too much tax.Businesses slipping a few imports under the counter because if they actually paid all the taxes they were meant to on an imported bottle of wine for example, the price would be too much to sell.

Lets face it all of us who have residency here of any sort are meant to be paying tax twice, once when we earn it in UK, states or wherever, and secondly here in Peru.

So jump back off from your high horses. This forum is and always has been full of lots of threads to help you sidestep and bend slightly some of the many complicated and in cases not very logical rules.

If you adhere 100% to the rules, life would not be very workable. For instance in the UK, you would still be charged with treason if you drew on a banknote or killed a swan, and I am sure the states has it fair share of equally strange rules, which people do not actually adhere to.

Having lived here for 5 years,being married to a Peruvian and having two dual nationality daughters I really do not find it immoral or any other of your accusations, that I might want to not lose status just because work is slack here this year due to less tourists due to recession caused mainly by american banks irresponsibility. I have to travel abroad for a bit to find work to support my family and our future here in Peru.

So if you have lived the life of an angel and followed to the letter every rule ever written, then I accept your criticism, otherwise examine yourselves first and read the question properly.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby mammalu » Fri May 21, 2010 1:18 pm

Good Luck, Mulcahen!

I know many people who are suffering economic hardship at this time. It is already hard to be away from your family in order to be able to provide for them. We've just sent back to Europe one expat worker ...and he was very apprehensive about it. He tried to exhaust ANY possibility to stay longer.

A little bit more compassion is essential and let's try to put ourselves on somebody else's shoes.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby scott » Fri May 21, 2010 4:19 pm

mammalu wrote:Good Luck, Mulcahen!

I know many people who are suffering economic hardship at this time. It is already hard to be away from your family in order to be able to provide for them. We've just sent back to Europe one expat worker ...and he was very apprehensive about it. He tried to exhaust ANY possibility to stay longer.

A little bit more compassion is essential and let's try to put ourselves on somebody else's shoes.


I am sympathetic to the OP. However, that does not make what he is asking legal, ethical or remotely ok...
Seeking or offering advice on the Expat site to facilitate illegal activites should be frowned upon.

The old days of most foreigners border hopping every so often to stay in the country longer than technically they were meant to. Getting a good accountant to help you avoid paying too much tax.


The law allows for border hopping. Peru collects taxes that go back the people when you over stay. Accountants help you legally not pay more than you owe, not to avoid taxes.

Businesses slipping a few imports under the counter because if they actually paid all the taxes they were meant to on an imported bottle of wine for example, the price would be too much to sell.


I think that is called smuggling, and is illegal. Again, paying taxes support the people of Peru: Infrastructure, schools, healthcare, etc.

If you adhere 100% to the rules, life would not be very workable.


Wrong. You can do well and succeed while following the rules. I find what holds most people back is their lack of knowledge of the law and the processes related to them. They find it is easier to take a shortcut to get what they need rather than follow the process. In Peru, by doing so you continue to keep the country from advancing... It affects tourism, investment, etc.

Having lived here for 5 years,being married to a Peruvian and having two dual nationality daughters I really do not find it immoral or any other of your accusations, that I might want to not lose status just because work is slack here this year due to less tourists due to recession caused mainly by american banks irresponsibility. I have to travel abroad for a bit to find work to support my family and our future here in Peru.


I have lived here for 4 years and have not had to pay a bribe to get anything done. If you 'lose' your status, it takes all of 30 days and a few hundred soles to get it back. To blame the American banking system is mis-guided. The situation was caused by worldwide issues not solely American.

So if you have lived the life of an angel and followed to the letter every rule ever written, then I accept your criticism, otherwise examine yourselves first and read the question properly.


Angel, hell no. I do break the helmet law, for which I would gladly pay my fine.

I guess you have to ask yourself: Does the end justify the means?
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby craig » Fri May 21, 2010 6:41 pm

sunflower wrote:Would you do this in your home country????

Yes, I would, if I could.

But in the US only rich and powerful people are able to get away with corruption.

One of the nice things about Peru is that even poor and humble people can ameliorate evil with bribes.

Unfortunately, I am too much of a stupid gringo to know how. But I am glad that Peruvians have the option. It makes Peruvian society better for all and advances the country.

Craig
Last edited by craig on Fri May 21, 2010 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby americorps » Fri May 21, 2010 6:43 pm

I am confused. In a different thread, some said it disrespected Peruvian culture to assume a contract should be respected because it countered the culture, but coima is part of the Peruvian Government culture, so, using the same logic, isn't it disrespectful to Peruvian culture to not respect this part of the culture?

:roll:
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby north » Sat May 22, 2010 3:55 am

This is the same that I asked. Go see my topic. Only nobody really answered my question.

Doesn't anyone know for sure if you can be out for more than 6 months and still be able to come back to Peru at the end of your 1 year CE and they'd still put the FPB on your entry stamp? And not change it to a 90 day entry stamp as a tourist???

I really hope someone answers this now, I have to reserve a flight! In 1 week it will be my 6 month mark!!!!!!!!!!! I really wanted to go 2 weeks later.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby scott » Sat May 22, 2010 7:32 am

north wrote:This is the same that I asked. Go see my topic. Only nobody really answered my question.

Doesn't anyone know for sure if you can be out for more than 6 months and still be able to come back to Peru at the end of your 1 year CE and they'd still put the FPB on your entry stamp? And not change it to a 90 day entry stamp as a tourist???

I really hope someone answers this now, I have to reserve a flight! In 1 week it will be my 6 month mark!!!!!!!!!!! I really wanted to go 2 weeks later.


I/we did answer your question. According to DIGEMIN, if you are out of the country for more than 183 days in a 12 month period, your CE will be cancelled. You can find the information of the DIGEMIN website: http://www.digemin.gob.pe/

Don't speak or read Spanish, install the Google Toolbar and click the translate icon.

You can also call them at Central Telefónica 4176900.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby Jonathanme » Sat May 22, 2010 8:50 am

No, you cannot stay out of Peru longer than 6 months. I stayed out 6 months and 1 day, and at the airport I was told was not a resident any longer and was stamped in as a tourist.
That being said.

I had to go to immigration, fill out a form, and pay to change my status from tourist to a resident not to mention the entire carne (interpol ) process over again.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby iron butterfly » Sat May 22, 2010 10:26 am

I think mulcahen has asked a valid and honest question. He has been registered in this forum for quite sometime. He has probably read a lot about which border crossing to go to. Which line to stand in. What kind of pizza to buy. Which person to talk to. Which municipality to go to. One can read the laws of Peru, online and become quite confused especially if you are facing a dead line such as mulcahen is. Just take for example, the confusion revolving around simply getting married in Peru and the documents and what type of documents you need such as a birth certificate being too old or what ever.
By the way, it took 2 days of condemnations and boastings of how perfect some people are, for some one to finally post a link to the law.
It looks like he finally got a valid response to his question, instead of condemnations.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby Kelly » Sat May 22, 2010 3:27 pm

I'm sorry - where did someone boast about how perfect they were? I don't find that on my screen. You had neither an answer to the question nor anything of substance to add to the conversation, so I can only assume that you wanted to jump on the condemnation train.

I can very much understand mulcahen's question, and I don't think he was out of line to ask, otherwise I would have deleted his thread. Often, there are ways to get around laws - sometimes in ways that aren't actually illegal, like border hopping. However, I also don't think people are out of line to recommend doing things the right way.

The position of the Expat forum is that we don't condone illegal activity, and recommend against it. However, if someone knows a tip that can help - like going to another office, for example, which is NOT illegal, but certainly not an offical policy - there's no harm in asking.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby craig » Sat May 22, 2010 7:29 pm

Kelly wrote:I also don't think people are out of line to recommend doing things the right way.

Sometimes the arrogance of people on this list presuming that their peculiar notions are "the right way" is out of line.

For example, there have been many times when questions about border hopping have been met with similar condemnation by people on this list. They declared border hopping to be wrong and illegal (in spite of the fact that it is perfectly in keeping with Peruvian law and practice) on the basis of some normative ideas of their own concoction, Belgian law, socialist mores, simple ignorance or whatever.

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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby Kelly » Sat May 22, 2010 10:26 pm

Aye. That's why I don't have a problem with people recommending the actual right way. When it's their own version of the right way, then... well, then it's not necessarily the right way. Right? :D
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby north » Sun May 23, 2010 1:19 am

I am still undecided if I should submit this special apology letter with medical documention with it or not, it might be more strategic to approach it honestly, or they will find out anyways that I wasn't there the minimum 6 months and might just be lazy and reject and go to the next. You truly think it's better if I simply reapply like a stupid person and then wait, and then what do you think would happen? In a few days I'd go back and ask what the verdict is and they'd say that.... "somebody wants to talk to me?" So the big cheese will point out that I wasn't there the minimum time and blah blah blah, so I'd say sorry and offer to pay a "penality"? Could they play it that way or would they fear they don't know me and better not meet me to put themselves at risk? So would be easier and less risky for them to just reject and move on? I really hope they'll ask me something before they reject. Because if they just reject then it would be DONE, I'd have to appeal by getting a lawyer or something. Which wouldn't be worth it because the legal process would take years and thousands. Or could I just go back and try to submit the same application again after being rejected, but this time with medical documentation from canada, which could provide a reason why I was gone. I still don't know whats better to do first. To just be stupid and reapply simply and normally, or put in this special letter of consideration I have with apologies and excuses and evidence and photos of my peruvian family, etc. And tell them how much it would mean to me to get this and not start over. Somebody help me and and tell me how to approach this. There is no room for errors and missteps.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby mahou123 » Sun May 23, 2010 3:45 pm

Yuo should check out decreto legislativo 1043, article 42, here

http://www.digemin.gob.pe/normatividad.asp

in particular

El residente Religioso, Estudiante, Trabajador,
Independiente, Familiar Ofi cial, Familiar Residente
y Rentista pierde su condición migratoria si su
ausencia excediera de ciento ochenta y tres (183)
días calendario consecutivos o acumulados dentro
de un periodo cualquiera de doce (12) meses, salvo
por razones de fuerza mayor, laborales o de salud
debidamente comprobadas, en cuyo caso el plazo
de ausencia se puede extender hasta los doce (12)
meses, previa autorización de la Dirección General de
Migraciones y Naturalización con opinión favorable de
la Comisión de Extranjería.


so you legally have a loophole to extend your absence to 12 months on ´fuerza mayor, laborales o de salud´ grounds. If you manage to do it in practice, please let us know, this is an interesting question.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby Kelly » Sun May 23, 2010 4:56 pm

However, that does say 'previa autorización ' - previous authorization - which means you need to act VERY fast to get it done before your time is up.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby scott » Sun May 23, 2010 5:51 pm

Kelly wrote:However, that does say 'previa autorización ' - previous authorization - which means you need to act VERY fast to get it done before your time is up.


If you are near a Peruvian embassy in Canada, call them or go there. They usually have English speakers there. Hopefully they can help you. If not call DIGEMIN directly. I hope you are able get things worked out and maintain your CE.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby north » Mon May 24, 2010 4:01 am

THANK YOU, I can not thank you enough Mahou..... you have just made me feel so much better, relaxed and reassured!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I will get my wife to read, understand and translate this link and website for me.

Kelly, I'm not sure whether I understand what you mean. Previous authorization, is that before you leave Peru that you do something with them if you know you won't go back for over 6 months? Or do you mean to reapply for your 2nd year Carne well in advance of its expirary? For example.... if mine expires June 20, when should I go to Migrations to submit my application for renewal? They told me to go a couple days before, but now with the previous authorization, whats it mean I got to go 2 weeks before? Or what? And WHAT do I say in it or what else should I put in it that would lead them in my favor and approve me???? Do I apply for it differently? What other extra supporting documents can I attempt to submit even though they are very strict about only taking what they need. Some people tell me it's better to act stupid and submit it simple and if they reject you say that you didn't know the 6 month thing, etc... but I think if they reject then it'll be too late!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kelly, mahou, help me out a little more with this, you guys are great! Please reply back as soon as possible, speak freely and extensively.

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! crap I have to get back there NOW! Got to use damn credit card, got no money :(
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby fanning » Mon May 24, 2010 2:01 pm

Wow, do they have pills for that condition ? Take it easy..

I suppose 'previous authorization' would mean that in case you go to work for let's say 8 months out of Peru, and you know beforehand that that would cause problems with your Carnet, that beforehand you ask an authorization.
Emergency medical conditions can offcourse not be authorized beforehand, but logically I can assume that you should proof that you bought your ticket before the 6 month limitation expired, but due to some medical emergency ( which you can proof with papers ) you could not travel back withing the 6 months.

Your case seems not in any way within the guidelines for an 'fuerza mayor' so you just lost you CE, and must do the tramite again.
There is however a section on the Digemin website about official guidelines for bribes. I am not sure if the link still works..
http://www.digemin.gob.pe/coima_extenciones
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby Kelly » Mon May 24, 2010 2:03 pm

Now, now, we've moved past the bribes and are trying to come up with actual helpful suggestions. But, funny, all the same. ;)
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby mulcahen » Mon May 31, 2010 10:40 am

Thanks for those replies. Thanks Mahou123 for spotting a possible way around.

Just had a thought. And this is a question rather than a statement.Would we as lay people spend as much time looking at bits of law, if we were living in our orginal home country?Law in whatever country is never particularly simple to read, nor I imagine designed to be.Are we making the mistake of looking at and talking about paraphrased bits of law without reading the whole thing ? If the sort of issues were related to something back home, would we be paying a specialist to interpret it and explain it to us such as a lawyer, solicitor, accountant etc.

Mahou123's spotting of the 12 month exception possibility was something I certainly did not spot, and no one in immigrations had mentioned it to me either. If this were a tax subject for example, would our definition of a really good accountant be the one that had spotted this sort of exception, a way around things? I have been given and read a lot of useful advice on this forum over the years, but do we need to be wary at times that by being enthusiastic amateurs we are possibly mis-informing ourselves?
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby mahou123 » Mon May 31, 2010 6:53 pm

The thing about Peruvian law, it is usually not too old. Regulation I was referring to, about 6 months in a year absence, is not even 2 years old. Ley de extranjería is less than 20 years old, set up during Fujimori government. There is no guarantee that tomorrow it will not be changed by some other government. But, generally, it seems to be a common understanding, that encouraging foreign people to settle in Peru and become Peruvian, is a beneficial policy for this country, and thus having some red tape on the way is against this policy and should be eliminated. It is in interests of Peru to have us as naturalised Peruvians, so generally no one should put obstacles. If this occurs on some technical grounds, they are just asking for a little ´coima´, this is not something that is in interests of Peruvian state. If your objective is to become Peruvian, you´ll get there.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby PeruFan » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:29 am

I am a missionary and have to be out of Peru for more than 183 for a furlough. We will be gone about a year. I did some checking. (I also sat in a very long meeting about this topic lead by DIGEMIN.) You can get permission to be out longer. However, the cost for doing this is more than starting over and redoing the entire carnet process. I can´t remember off the top of my head all the details. However, you have to have several documents legalized at the consulates in the states. This added to the other required paperwork would cost about double the price of doing the entire process again. However, if you are someone that uses a runner or service to do your document renewals, it might be worth your time to get the permission to stay out longer.
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Re: CofE,can you get around being away for 6months

Postby euroman » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:43 pm

So, what´s the deal when you lose your CE.
You come back to Peru. You get a 183 days stamp and when you forget to leave when your visa is expired, you pay 1 dollar a day. With the dollar at a 2.30 rate, it´s time to stay.

Nobody checks you migratory status anyway. When driving around, I get checked weekly at checkpoints. The police only checks your drivers licence, SOAT and tarjeta. They never ask for my migratory status or my passport. I lost my passport anyway.

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